The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Can you ever really know what’s going on inside the mind of another creature? In some cases, like other humans, or dogs and cats, we might be able to guess with a bit of confidence. But what about octopuses? Or insects? What about AI systems — will they ever be able to feel anything? And if they do feel anything, what are our ethical obligations toward them? In today’s episode, Vox staff writer Oshan Jarow brings those questions to philosopher of science Jonathan Birch. Birch is the principal investigator on the Foundations of Animal Sentience Project at the London School of Economics, and author of the recently released book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Birch also convinced the UK government to consider lobsters, octopuses, and crabs sentient and therefore deserving of legal protection. This unique perspective earned Jonathan a place on Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last month — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better. In this conversation, Oshan and Jonathan explore everything we know— and don't know — about sentience, and how to make ethical decisions about creatures who may possess it. Guest host: Oshan Jarow Guest: Jonathan Birch, Author of The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Available for free on the Oxford Academic platform. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, host Sean Illing gets personal when he asks professor and podcast host Scott Galloway: What’s going on with men? There’s a growing body of evidence that men are falling behind in education, the labor market, and other areas. And when you look at the numbers on drug overdoses and deaths by suicide, it’s pretty bleak. Sean and Scott — both of whom are raising sons — talk about the struggles men are facing today, how parents can navigate the current moment, and the challenges they each faced as young men. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Scott Galloway, professor and podcast host Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The sheer feeling of aliveness. We all know what that is, even though it comes in many different forms. Maybe it’s going for a long run at night. Or free-climbing a mountain. Or an intense meditation practice. Or that sensation you get when you’re on the floor at a great concert. Call it a flow state or a religious experience or whatever you want, but it’s a kind of ecstasy. People have been experiencing this for centuries, and in previous eras, they called it a mystical experience. In the modern world a word like “mystical” feels weird or out of place. Maybe when you hear it, you think of a fringe religious figure. Or a spiritual teacher. Or crystal-peddling influencers on Instagram. But the study of mysticism — that feeling of intense experience — has been the focus of philosophers and theologians for centuries. So what can we learn from the tradition of mystical thought? Might it help us live better and more meaningful lives in the 21st century? Today’s guest is Simon Critchley. He’s a writer and a philosopher at the New School in New York and the author of a new book called Mysticism. In this conversation, he tells host Sean Illing how we can all get outside our own heads and enjoy what it feels like to be alive. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Simon Critchley, philosopher and author of the book Mysticism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, host Sean Illing speaks with marine biologist Ayana Elizabeth Johnson about her book What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. Johnson approaches climate change with informed optimism, encouraging us to stop waiting for the worst to happen. She doesn’t reject the realities of a warming planet but reminds us that doomerism is paralyzing us into inaction. In short, having a better climate future begins with envisioning one and then mapping the road to get there. This unique perspective earned Johnson a place on Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last week — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better. In honor of the Future Perfect 50 — and to remind us all that a better climate future is possible — The Gray Area team is sharing Sean’s interview with Johnson, which originally aired in September 2024. Click here to find out more about the 2024 Future Perfect 50. And click here to read Johnson’s profile. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, marine biologist and author of What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What just happened? It’s been almost two weeks since the presidential election, and many Americans are still grappling with the result. The political reckoning will probably last for months, if not years, and we may never know exactly why voters made the choices they did. But one thing is clear: the roughly 75 million people who voted for Trump were saying “No” to something. So what were they rejecting? Today’s guest is Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. It’s a book about democracy and the contradictions and conflicts at the heart of it. Beauchamp speaks with host Sean Illing about America’s growing reactionary movement and what it could mean for the country’s political future. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Philosopher Alexandra Plakias says there are no awkward people, only awkward situations. In her book, Awkwardness: A Theory, Plakias explains the difference between embarrassment and awkwardness, how awkwardness can be used by people in power as a way of breaking social norms, and what exactly is happening when people aren’t on the same social script. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Alexandra Plakias, author, Awkwardness: A Theory Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This has been an unusual week. Sean and the TGA team are still sifting through it all and figuring out what to think about the presidential election. In the meantime, our colleague Jonquilyn Hill has leapt into action. She and her team from the Explain It to Me podcast collected lots of listener questions in the aftermath of Trump's victory, and took them to the Vox reporters who know the most about what happened and what it all means. We'll be back with a new episode on Monday. Until then, check out Explain It to Me. ________________________ Wow, what a week. The country has a new president-elect, and our listeners have a ton of questions about what comes next. Why did Latino voters swing right? How will Democrats respond? What’s going to happen to Donald Trump’s court cases? Will Trump really do all the things he said he would during the campaign? Host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Vox correspondents Christian Paz, Ian Millhiser, and Zack Beauchamp to answer all that and more. Submit your questions — about politics, or, if you need a break, about anything else — by calling 1-800-618-8545. You can also submit them here. Credits: Jonquilyn Hill, host Sofi LaLonde and Gabrielle Berbey, producers Cristian Ayala, engineer Carla Javier, supervising producer Caity PenzeyMoog, Anouck Dussaud, and Sarah Schweppe, fact checkers Jorge Just, Julia Longoria, and Natalie Jennings, editors  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does it mean to be "woke"? It's become a catchall term to smear or dismiss anything that has any vague association with progressive politics. As a result, anytime you venture into an argument about “wokeness,” it becomes hopelessly entangled in a broader cultural battle. Today’s guest, journalist and professor Musa al-Gharbi, helps us untangle "wokeness" from its fraught political context. The author of a new book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, al-Gharbi explains what effects the movement is and isn’t having on our society. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Musa al-Gharbi (@Musa_alGharbi), author, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What can ancient Rome teach us about American democracy? The Roman Republic fell for a lot of reasons: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. It sounds a lot like the problems America is facing today. This week's guest, historian Edward Watts, tells us what we can learn about America's future by studying Rome's past. Host: Sean Illing, (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Edward Watts, author, Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny and The Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog. Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. The two discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work, why he's interested in Mars, and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All This episode was originally published in October of 2023. Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How important is complexity? At The Gray Area, we value understanding the details. We revel in complexity. But does our desire to understand that complexity sometimes over-complicate an issue? Journalist and bestselling author Ta-Nehisi Coates thinks so. This week on The Gray Area, Sean talks to Coates about his new book The Message, a collection of essays about storytelling, moral clarity, and the dangers of hiding behind complexity. The Message covers a lot of ground, but the largest section of the book — and the focus of this week’s conversation — is about Coates’s trip to the Middle East and the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Coates argues that the situation is not as complicated as most of us believe. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part three of our series on creativity, guest host Oshan Jarow speaks with philosopher of neuroscience Mark Miller about how our minds actually work. They discuss the brain as a predictive engine that builds our conscious experience for us. We’re not seeing what we see. We’re predicting what we should see. Miller says that depression, opioid use, and our love of horror movies can all be explained by this theory. And that injecting beneficial kinds of uncertainty into our experiences — embracing chaos and creativity — ultimately make us even better at prediction, which is one of the keys to happiness and well-being.  This is the third conversation in our three-part series about creativity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean revisits his interview with musician Laraaji, a pioneer of new age music who has recorded more than 50 albums since he was discovered busking in a park by Brian Eno. Laraaji and Sean discuss inspiration, flow states, and what moves us to create. This is the second conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is the relationship between creativity and artificial intelligence? Creativity feels innately human, but is it? Can a machine be creative? Are we still being creative if we use machines to assist in our creative output? To help answer those questions, Sean speaks with Meghan O'Gieblyn, the author of the book "God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning." She and Sean discuss how the rise of AI is forcing us to reflect on what it means to be a creative being and whether our relationship to the written word has already been changed forever. This is the first conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn (https://www.meghanogieblyn.com/) References: God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021) Being human in the age of AI. The Gray Area. (Vox Media; 2023) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-human-in-the-age-of-ai/id1081584611?i=1000612148857 Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Children live with a beginner’s mind. Every day is full of new discoveries, powerful emotions, and often unrealistically positive assumptions about the future. As adults, beginner’s mind gives way to the mundane drudgeries of existence — and our brains seem to make it much harder for us to be happy. Should we be cool with that? We wrap up our three-part series on optimism with Paul Bloom, author of Psych: The Story of the Human Mind and Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning. He offers his thoughts on optimism and pessimism and walks Sean Illing through the differences between what we think makes us happy versus what actually does. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloom), psychologist, author and writer of the Substack Small Potatoes Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing has a special message for all you listeners: Look at me! We’ve made our first-ever video episode. See Sean in conversation with Yuval Noah Harari. Watch it with your friends and family and your friend’s families and their family friends. It’s on YouTube right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhx1sdX2bow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Climate change has become synonymous with doomsday, as though everyone is waiting for the worst to happen. But what is this mindset doing to us? Is climate anxiety keeping us from confronting the challenge? Ayana Elizabeth Johnson thinks so. In part two of our “Reasons to Be Cheerful” series, she talks to Sean Illing about her new book, What If We Get It Right? and makes the case that our best chance for survival is acting as though the future is a place in which we want to live. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Humans are good learners and teachers, constantly gathering information, archiving, and sharing knowledge. So why, after building the most sophisticated information technology in history, are we on the verge of destroying ourselves? We know more than ever before. But are we any wiser? Bestselling author of Sapiens and historian Yuval Noah Harari doesn’t think so. This week Sean Illing talks with Harari, author of a mind-bending new book, Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks, about how the information systems that shape our world often sow the seeds of destruction, and why the current AI revolution is just the beginning of a brand-new evolutionary process that might leave us all behind. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Yuval Noah Harari (@harari_yuval) Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s a certain glamor to cynicism. As a culture, we’ve turned cynicism into a symbol of hard-earned wisdom, assuming that those who are cynical are the only ones with the courage to tell us the truth and prepare us for an uncertain future. Psychologist Jamil Zaki challenges that assumption. In part one of The Gray Area’s new three-part series, “Reasons to be Cheerful,” Sean Illing asks Jamil Zaki about why cynicism is everywhere, especially if it makes no sense to be this way — and what we, as individuals, can do to challenge our own cynical tendencies. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Jamil Zaki (@zakijam) psychologist at Stanford University and author of Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing speaks with poet and historian Jennifer Michael Hecht, whose book The Wonder Paradox asks: If we don't have God or religion, what — if anything — do we lose? They discuss how religion accesses meaning — through things like prayer, ceremony, and ritual — and Jennifer speaks on the ways that poetry can play similar roles in a secular way. They also discuss some of the "tricks" that poets use, share favorite poems, and explore what it would mean to "live the questions" — and even learn to love them — without having the answers. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Jennifer Michael Hecht (@Freudeinstein), poet, historian; author References:  The Wonder Paradox: Embracing the Weirdness of Existence and the Poetry of Our Lives by Jennifer Michael Hecht (FSG; 2023) Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht (HarperOne; 2004) Rainer Maria Rilke, from a 1903 letter to Franz Kappus, published in Letters to a Young Poet (pub. 1929) Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1855) "Why do parrots live so long?" by Charles Q. Choi (LiveScience; May 23, 2022) "The survival of poetry depends on the failure of language," from The Tree of Meaning: Language, Mind, and Ecology by Robert Bringhurst (Counterpoint; 2009) "Traveler, There Is No Road" ("Caminante, no hay camino") by Antonio Machado (1917) "A Free Man's Worship" by Bertrand Russell (1903) Totality and Infinity: An Essay on Exteriority by Emmanuel Levinas (1961)   Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices