The Lawfare Podcast

Tom Kent ran Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Asia and is a longtime Russia watcher. He talks to Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes about President Trump’s executive order dismantling Voice of America and Radio Free Europe.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On March 21, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including DOGE’s incursions on the U.S. Institute of Peace, the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, and the firing of probationary employees.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From March 21, 2023: By many accounts, the United States is living through a new era of competition—not just between major powers and strategic rivals, but between ideologies. Around the world, many authoritarian governments seem to be on the rise, even as many liberal democracies are facing a crisis of confidence, including, by some accounts, here in the United States.In a new book entitled, “Defeating the Dictators,” Charles Dunst, a former journalist and current deputy director of research and analytics at The Asia Group, lays out what he sees as the right strategy for making democracies more effective and defeating the appeal of authoritarian government. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with him to discuss his new book, the importance he places on Singapore as a case study, and how the domestic remedies he focuses on translate into foreign policy.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From May 9, 2023: Since March 2022, El Salvador has been under a state of exception as its President Nayib Bukele seeks to crack down on the country’s powerful gangs. Bukele, who once described himself on Twitter as the “world’s coolest dictator,” has engaged in a prolonged attack on El Salvador’s democratic institutions. And the crackdown has resulted in a range of human rights abuses. At the same time, Bukele really does seem to have been successful in curbing gang violence, and his popularity is sky high. To understand the situation in El Salvador, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with Manuel Meléndez-Sánchez, a PhD candidate in Political Science at Harvard University who has written about Bukele on Lawfare. They discussed why Bukele’s crackdown on the gangs seems to be working, why it might fall apart in the long term, and what Bukele’s rise means for democracy in El Salvador and around the world.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Gregory Johnsen, a non-resident fellow at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington, D.C. Johnsen explains the rationale of the Trump administration's decision to bomb Yemen but argues that it will have little effect on the Houthis. Indeed, Johnsen contends that the Houthis are spoiling for a fight with the United States and Israel, believing that this will generate support within Yemen that will help them increase their power.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dan Hendrycks, Director of the Center for AI Safety, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss his recent paper (co-authored with former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and Scale AI CEO Alexandr Wang), “Superintelligence Strategy.”To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Scott sat down with Rational Security veterans and Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes and Molly Reynolds to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:“House Odds.” Speaker of the House Mike Johnson scored an unlikely win last week, when he kept the narrow (and notoriously fractious) Republican house majority united enough to pass its own continuing resolution to keep the government open—and then successfully got enough Democrats to acquiesce to debate on it for it to pass through the Senate without amendment. What does this tell us about the current dynamics in Congress—and what the Democratic minority in either chamber might realistically hope to achieve moving forward?“This Pressure Goes to Eleven.” The Trump administration amped up military operations in the Middle East this week, taking out a senior ISIS leader in Iraq, pursuing an aggressive set of airstrikes against the Houthis in Yemen, and greenlighting a renewal of Israeli hostilities in Gaza, seemingly ending the weeks-long ceasefire that had prevailed there. The common thread across all three sets of action seems to be Iran, a regime that the Trump administration has both socked with a return of maximum pressure sanctions and sought to engage on possible negotiations over its nuclear program. Is this new maximum maximum-pressure campaign likely to work? What risks and benefits does it present?“Saying the Quiet Part Incredibly Loud and at Length.” President Trump gave an unprecedented speech at the Justice Department last week, where he spent over an hour misrepresenting the criminal cases that had been made against him prior to his rising to the presidency and naming specific individuals as enemies who he indicated should be arrested. What motivated his address? And what will it mean for the campaign of vengeance he is slowly rolling out against his perceived political enemies?In object lessons, Molly momentarily set aside her usual evangelism for regional NPR-affiliate podcasts to champion Good Politics/Bad Politics, a Substack deep-dive into U.S. elections and governance by Jonathan Bernstein, Julia Azari, and David S. Bernstein. Scott, ever the escapist, steered clear of wands and wizardry but still embraced fantasy with Lev Grossman’s “The Bright Sword.” And Ben lamented the recent gutting of Voice of America—only to note that those voices haven’t vanished. They’re just looking for a new frequency.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Steven Heydemann, the Director of the Middle East Studies Program at Smith College, to assess the fast-changing developments in Syria today. Heydemann discusses the surge in communal violence in Syria, the deal between the new Hayat Tahrir al-Sham-led government and Syria's Kurds, Israel's counterproductive interventions, and U.S. policy toward the new regime in Damascus. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Derek Thompson, a senior editor at The Atlantic and co-author (with Ezra Klein) of Abundance, joins Renée DiResta, Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the theory of Abundance and its feasibility in an age of political discord and institutional distrust.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a live conversation on March 14, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes, sat down with assistant professor of law at the University of Kentucky Matt Boaz and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson to discuss legal challenges to the Trump administration’s executive actions, including the detention of permanent resident Mahmoud Khalil, the birthright citizenship executive order, dismantling of USAID, the firing of probationary employees across the federal government, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From December 15, 2020: Alan Rozenshtein sat down with Yaya Fanusie, a former CIA analyst and an expert on the national security implications of cryptocurrencies, who recently published a paper as part of Lawfare's ongoing Digital Social Contract research paper series, entitled, "Central Bank Digital Currencies: The Threat From Money Launderers and How to Stop Them." They talked about how central banks are exploring digital currencies, how those currencies might in turn be used by criminals and terrorist groups, and how governments and the private sector should respond.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From October 6, 2023: The First Amendment protects speech, but what kind? True speech, sure. But what about false or misleading speech? What if it's harmful? After all, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater—or can you?To answer these questions, Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare spoke with Jeff Kosseff, who is an Associate Professor of Cybersecurity Law in the United States Naval Academy’s Cyber Science Department and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare. Jeff is releasing his latest book this month, titled "Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation," in which he describes, and defends, the First Amendment's robust protections for false and misleading speech.They spoke about the book, why you sometimes can yell fire in a crowded theater, and how new technology both superchargers misinformation and provides new tools to fight it.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode of the Lawfare Podcast features Glen Weyl, economist and author at Microsoft Research; Jacob Mchangama, Executive Director of the Future of Free Speech Project at Vanderbilt; and Ravi Iyer, Managing Director of the USC Marshall School Neely Center.Together with Renee DiResta, Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, they talk about design vs moderation. Conversations about the challenges of social media often focus on moderation—what stays up and what comes down. Yet the way a social media platform is built influences everything from what we see, to what is amplified, to what content is created in the first place—as users respond to incentives, nudges, and affordances. Design processes are often invisible or opaque, and users have little power—though new decentralized platforms are changing that. So they talk about designing a prosocial media for the future, and the potential for an online world without Caesars.Articles Referenced:https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.10834https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4178647https://www.techdirt.com/2025/01/27/empowering-users-not-overlords-overcoming-digital-helplessness/https://kgi.georgetown.edu/research-and-commentary/better-feeds/https://knightcolumbia.org/content/the-algorithmic-management-of-polarization-and-violence-on-social-mediahttps://time.com/7258238/social-media-tang-siddarth-weyl/https://futurefreespeech.org/scope-creep/https://futurefreespeech.org/preventing-torrents-of-hate-or-stifling-free-expression-online/https://www.thefai.org/posts/shaping-the-future-of-social-media-with-middlewareTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On today’s episode, Van Jackson, Professor of International Relations at Victoria University of Wellington, and Michael Brenes, Associate Director of the Brady-Johnson Program in Grand Strategy and Lecturer in History at Yale University, join Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about their new book,  “The Rivalry Peril: How Great-Power Competition Threatens Peace and Weakens Democracy,” in which they make the case for the United States to take a less aggressive approach to China. They discussed the pitfalls of great power competition, the origins of the China threat, and why a destructive U.S.-China rivalry is our choice, rather than our destiny.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Scott sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor and co-host emeritus Alan Rozenshtein and Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:“Lowering the Bar.” Last week, the Trump administration took aim at two leading law firms—Covington & Burling and Perkins Coie—by repealing lawyers’ security clearances and setting limits on the extent to which government actors can contract with them, on the apparent grounds that they worked for Trump’s perceived enemies. Is this legal? Will it be challenged? And what will the effect be on the legal industry?“Big Math on Campus.” The Trump administration recently announced its intent to withhold $400 million in government grants from Columbia University, on the grounds that it had not done enough to combat anti-semitism on campus—a measure it paired with an indication that it would repeal student visas from those who had expressed “pro-Hamas” views. Is this tack a proper or legally sustainable one? And what impact will it have on academic communities in the United States?“Nothing Is Certain but Death and Ta…Well, at Least Death.” After temporarily delaying tariffs on Canada and Mexico after 48 hours last month, President Trump assured everyone that they were definitely getting installed this month. But once again, after a few days, he rescinded many of them. Nonetheless, the uncertainty surrounding this administration’s policies has markets spooked, triggering fears of a recession—something President Trump has indicated people may just have to live through. What are the real costs and benefits of Trump’s oscillating trade policies?In object lessons, Alan went full nerd and prescribed himself a decade-long literary exile with “Gardens of the Moon,” the first in Steven Erikson’s ten-book epic. Scott’s old ass, meanwhile, threw its weight behind “My Old Ass,” a film about a young woman navigating family, love, and self-discovery—all with a little hallucinogenic assistance. And Natalie logrolled like a pro, plugging Quinta Jurecic’s guest spot on The Ezra Klein Show, where Quinta delivers one of Natalie’s all-time favorite “Quintaisms”—with all the necessary context baked right in.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jack Goldsmith sits down with Zachary Price, Professor of Law at UC Law San Francisco and author of the new book, “Constitutional Symmetry: Judging in a Divided Republic,” which argues for judges to make decisions that work “symmetrically” across major partisan and ideological divides. He explores the implications of this theory in the context of the Trump administration's legal actions, particularly regarding the removal power and the Supreme Court's evolving jurisprudence. The two discuss the implications of the unitary executive theory, particularly in relation to presidential power over law enforcement and executive orders. They analyze the TikTok executive order as a case study of presidential discretion and its potential overreach. The discussion also covers the implications of the Impoundment Control Act on congressional authority and the importance of maintaining a balance of power between the executive and legislative branches. Finally, they explore the concept of “constitutional symmetry” in the context of separation of powers and the role of civil service in preserving governmental integrity. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Carla Reyes, Associate Professor of Law at SMU Dedman School of Law, and Drew Hinkes, a Partner at Winston & Strawn with a practice focused on digital assets and advising financial services clients, join Kevin Frazier, Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the latest in cryptocurrency policy. The trio review the evolution of crypto-related policy since the Obama era, discuss the veracity of dominant crypto narratives, and explore what’s next from the Trump administration on this complex, evolving topic. Read more:TRM Labs 2025 Crypto Crime Report: https://www.trmlabs.com/2025-crypto-crime-report2023 FDIC National Survey of Unbanked and Underbanked Households: https://www.fdic.gov/household-surveyTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a live conversation on March 7, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett, sat down with associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School Nick Bednar and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson to discuss legal challenges to the Trump administration’s executive actions, including DOGE attempting to enter the U.S. African Development Foundation, the firing of probationary employees across the executive branch, and more.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From March 1, 2022: Over the past week, the United States and its allies have responded to Russia's military invasion of Ukraine with some unprecedented actions of their own—economic sanctions that target Russia in ways that have never been tried before, let alone applied to one of the world's largest economies over just a handful of days.To discuss this revolutionary sanctions strategy and what it may mean moving forward, Scott R. Anderson sat down with two sanctions experts: Julia Friedlander, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, and Rachel Ziemba, adjunct fellow at the Center for a New American Security. They talked about the different types of sanctions being applied, what impact they will have on the Russian economy and what the consequences may be, not just for the conflict in Ukraine, but for the rest of the world moving forward.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From February 26, 2024: At a South Carolina campaign rally on Feb. 10, former President Donald Trump told a crowd of supporters that while he was president he told “one of the presidents of a big country” in the NATO alliance that he would not protect that country from a Russian invasion if that country didn’t pay. Trump then said, “In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay. You got to pay your bills.” Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson to talk through Trump’s NATO comments, why they’re rattling European allies, whether a U.S. president could destroy the alliance, and how Congress might stop it. They also talked about why everyone here at Lawfare calls Section 1250A of the recent National Defense Authorization Act the “Anderson Saves NATO” provision.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.