The Lawfare Podcast

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with SITU’s Deputy Director of Research Gauri Bahuguna, Detention Watch Network’s Advocacy Director Setareh Ghandehari, the American Immigration Council’s Policy Director Nayna Gupta, and Just Futures Law’s Executive Director Paromita Shah to discuss the rise of the immigration enforcement economy following the recent release of “Deportation, Inc.” a new video series from SITU and Lawfare. They talk about why the government outsources the critical immigration enforcement functions of deportation, interdiction, and deportation to the private sector, and how this system evolved into a multi-billion dollar industry.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with Cristin Dorgelo, a former senior adviser for management at the Office of Management and Budget, and Rob Storch, who served as the inspector general of the Defense Department until the Trump administration fired him and many of his colleagues in January of this year. They discuss those firings, other Trump administration attacks on the offices of the inspector general, and various attempts by the administration to undermine oversight and evade accountability, all covered in a new report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities called “Trump Administration’s Undercutting of Oversight Hurts Taxpayers and Beneficiaries.”To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Scott down with his Lawfare colleagues Alan Rozenshtein and Ari Tabatabai to talk through a few of the week’s big national security news stories, including:“Once You Pop, You Can’t Stop.” The Trump administration has given a green light to Nvidia to export its powerful H200 chips to China, opening a potentially significant new market while jumpstarting China’s strategically significant AI industry—or, perhaps, making it reliant on U.S. technology. What explains this decision? And how does it align with the Trump administration’s broader reframing of strategic competition with China as a primarily economic problem, as reflected in its recent National Security Strategy?“Lavatories of Democracy.” Late last week, President Trump signed an executive order setting up a number of mechanisms intended to assert federal preemption over and otherwise deter state efforts to regulate the development and use of AI—an executive branch-only effort that followed a failed push to insert a related legislative provision into year-end omnibus legislation. How effective is this measure likely to be? And how wise is it to try and bar the states from regulating AI development and use in the first place?“Some Things You Can’t Make Light Of.” Over the weekend, a pair of gunmen inspired by the Islamic State executed a brutal massacre at a Hanukkah event on Australia’s Bondi Beach, killing 15 people and injuring 40. The violence has shocked Australia, a country with strict gun control laws where incidents of anti-semitism have been on the rise, as in much of the world. What is there to learn from the attack and its aftermath? And what could its ramifications be, both in Australia and further abroad?In object lessons, Alan tells us what the buzz is—seeing Jesus Christ Superstar live. Scott, heavy with Christmas spirit, shares his grandmother’s recipe for sour cream coffee cake (remember, during the holidays, dense=delicious). And Ari keeps us grounded with a recommendation of “Don’t Let’s Go To the Dogs Tonight,” a South African film about a White Zimbabwean family following the Rhodesian Bush War.Rational Security will be having its traditional end-of-year episode later this month, which will focus on listener-submitted topics and object lessons! If you have topics you want us to discuss and object lessons you want to share—whether serious or frivolous—be sure to send them to rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org by Dec. 21!To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein speaks with Scott Anderson, Senior Editor at Lawfare, fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution, and non-resident senior fellow in the National Security Law Program at Columbia Law School, who recently wrote a report about how social media platforms should handle unrecognized regimes like the Taliban. They discuss how social media platforms responded to the Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan in 2021; the divergent approaches of Meta, YouTube, and X toward sanctioned entities and governmental accounts; the international law concepts of recognition and de facto authority; a proposed "de facto authorities rule" that would allow platforms to permit certain essential governmental functions by unrecognized regimes; and how this framework can be reconciled with U.S. and international sanctions requirement.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At the start of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Russia held clear naval superiority in the Black Sea. Over the course of the war, Ukraine has developed an asymmetric maritime strategy using unmanned surface vehicles (USVs), achieving strategic effects against a superior naval force.Ukraine has largely shifted from importing complete drone systems to assembling them domestically using foreign components, with China remaining a key supplier of many critical parts. What is more, Ukraine is now preparing to export its drones internationally.In this episode, Katsiaryna Shmatsina, Eurasia Fellow at Lawfare, sits down with Cat Buchatskiy, the Director of Analytics at the Snake Island Institute, to discuss Ukraine’s maritime operations in the Black Sea, the use of drones, and the supply chains behind them. Cat leads a team of analysts producing frontline-validated research on modern warfare, defense innovation, and U.S.-Ukraine security cooperation. Read more from the Snake Island Institute on Ukraine's Black Sea’s Asymmetric Blueprint and the transformation of a once-nascent drone industry into a critical pillar of national defense.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Molly Roberts, and Eric Columbus and Lawfare Public Service Fellow Loren Voss to discuss next week's contempt hearings in J.G.G. v. Trump, the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from ICE custody, domestic deployments litigation, and moreYou can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From May 16, 2022: Today, Lawfare and Goat Rodeo released the first two episodes of Allies, a podcast series that traces the U.S.’s efforts to protect Afghan interpreters, translators and other partners through the Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) program. That effort culminated in the U.S. evacuation from Afghanistan in August 2021, when thousands of the U.S.’s local partners were left behind. In seven episodes, Allies will take listeners through the decade-long effort to honor America’s promises to its Afghan partners.Episode 1: “Faithful and Valuable Service” opens at the Kabul airport this past August, where the failure of the SIV program contributed to the chaos. Then, we rewind to just before 9/11, when the U.S. government had little regional, let alone linguistic, expertise on Afghanistan. After the invasion, that knowledge gap needed to be filled rapidly, so the U.S. began hiring local partners through military contractors. They became essential partners, and it was nearly impossible for any U.S. platoon, provincial reconstruction team or diplomat to operate without interpreters and translators. They were the U.S.’s eyes and ears. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From November 16, 2024: Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Alan Rozenshtein, and Quinta Jurecic and Executive Director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection Mary McCord about Donald Trump's picks for his Cabinet and senior-level administration positions, including Matt Gaetz as attorney general and Pete Hegseth as secretary of defense, the possibility of Trump using the recess appointment power, and more.Editor’s note: During a discussion of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.’s nomination to head the Department of Health and Human Services, we mentioned a 2019 outbreak of measles in Polynesia. The outbreak took place in Samoa, not American Samoa as we mistakenly stated.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At 10 am ET on Dec. 11, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson; Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor and Director of the Warfare, Irregular Threats, and Terrorism Program at CSIS Daniel Byman; and Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at AEI Kori Schake to discuss the Trump administration’s 2025 National Security Strategy. They talked about its emphasis on immigration as a national security threat and its implications for U.S. foreign policy.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

News of a U.S. attack on a boat off the coast of Venezuela—which included a second strike on survivors of the first—has raised new concerns about the administration’s operations against alleged drug traffickers. Legal analysts, including some at Lawfare, call the second strike clearly unlawful. So why did the U.S. military agree to follow the order?On today’s episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett discusses the roles and responsibilities of military personnel with Frank Rosenblatt, a professor at MC Law and a former U.S. Army Lt. Col and Judge Advocate General in the U.S. Army, and Colby Vokey, former Marine Corps Lt. Col and Judge Advocate General. They talk about the duty to disobey unlawful orders, the complexity of choosing to do so, and what it means for the future of U.S. operations.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Scott sat down with Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Contributing Editor Alex Zerden to talk through a few of the week’s big national security news stories, including:“Finding the Road to Damascus.” Former dictator Bashar al-Assad fled Syria one year ago this week, bringing a precipitous end to the country’s more than decade-long civil war. In the year since, has the country been able to make progress toward the optimistic future many hoped would follow al-Assad’s ouster? And what obstacles still lie in its path?“Civilizational Self-Confidence Scheme.” The Trump administration has undergone the once-per-term statutorily-mandated ritual of releasing its National Security Strategy. It claims an intent to stay the course on many key bipartisan pillars of U.S. foreign policy, but mixes in heavy doses of isolationism, ethnonationalism, and criticism of Europe for losing its “civilizational self-confidence.” How seriously should we take this document? And what does it tell us about the likely trajectory of U.S. foreign policy?“A Dimon in the Rough?” JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon has announced a ten-year initiative to invest $1.5 trillion in U.S. companies critical to U.S. national security and economic resilience. Is this an attempt by Dimon to repair his sometimes frosty relationship with the Trump administration by complimenting its “America First” strategy? Or is it an initiative that more genuinely strikes at the intersection of market logic and U.S. national security?In object lessons, Tyler is exploring the great heritage of American landmarks with “Lost in America: Photographing the Last Days of our Architectural Treasures” an archive of the Historic American Buildings Survey. Scott is embracing the holiday season the classic way—by settling in with delightfully cheesy films like A Merry Little Ex-Mas and Jingle Bell Heist on Netflix. And Alex is broadening the lens with “The World For Sale: Money, Power, and the Traders Who Barter the Earth's Resources,“ by Jack Farchy and Javier Blas, a deep dive into the global trade networks and power brokers who shape the flow of the planet’s resources.Rational Security will be having its traditional end-of-year episode later this month, which will focus on listener-submitted topics and object lessons! If you have topics you want us to discuss and object lessons you want to share—whether serious or frivolous—be sure to send them to rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org by Dec. 17!To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Susannah Glickman, an assistant professor of history at Stony Brook University who specializes in the political economy of computation and information, sat down with Lawfare Associate Editor Olivia Manes to discuss the role of defense tech in the second Trump administration. Susannah unpacked her recent article in the New York Review of Books tracing the historical relationship between tech, defense, and the U.S. government, and explained how defense tech firms which have benefitted from U.S. industrial policy are now undermining it for the sake of short-term profits. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wikipedia is more than an encyclopedia. It’s a key part of the internet’s information infrastructure—shaping what people know, what AI models learn, and what the public sees as true. But in an era of geopolitical conflict, AI disruption, and fracturing trust, Wikipedia has come under attack.In this episode, Renée DiResta talks with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales about his new book, “The Seven Rules of Trust,” and about how Wikipedia has managed to remain one of the most trusted sites on the internet. They explore the principles that helped build that trust and the outside pressure it’s come under—from American congressmen, to Russian censorship campaigns, to Elon Musk’s Grokipedia. What does it take to make institutions trustworthy in a low-trust era? What happens when reliable sources become a battleground for power? And how does a community continue to build shared knowledge while partisans are redefining the rules of truth?For further reading, see:“The Right-Wing Attack On Wikipedia,” by Renée DiResta in The Atlantic”The War Over Ukraine—on Wikipedia,” by Catarina Buchatskiy in Lawfare“Russian Court Fines Wikipedia Owner for Article on Ukraine,” by Anna Chernova and Olesya Dmitracova, CNN“The CDC Should Be More Like Wikipedia,” by Renée DiResta in The AtlanticTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Michael Feinberg, Molly Roberts, Roger Parloff and Eric Columbus and Lawfare Contributing Editor James Pearce to discuss the arrest of a suspect in the attempted bombing on Jan. 6, 2021, a hearing in NPR’s lawsuit over the Trump administration cutting its funding, where the prosecutions of Letitia James and James Comey stand, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From January 24, 2023: In 2019, investigative journalist and photographer Lynzy Billing went to Afghanistan to investigate a very personal story: her own past. In the process, she discovered what she came to call a classified war, one with lines of accountability so obscured that no one had to answer publicly for operations that went wrong.Lawfare managing editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Lynzy to talk through her four-year investigation, published last month in ProPublica. They discussed Afghanistan's shady Zero Units and their relationship with the CIA, the traumatic ripple effects caused by this lack of accountability, and why the U.S. continues to rely on a strategy of night raids, which Lynzy describes as quick, brutal operations that went wrong far more often than the U.S. has acknowledged. They also discussed why Lynzy decided to tell this story when few others would. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.