The Leadership Podcast

Sean Conley, Chief Learning Officer for Baker Hughes, discusses the importance of creating a people-first culture while still achieving results for your business. Sean talks about the importance of creating an environment where people want to learn and change their behavior through repetition and trial-and-error. He also touches on the challenges of our educational system and the need to create white space in calendars for growth and development amidst busy schedules. Join us as we explore the insights shared by Sean on the importance of investing in learners, fostering inclusion, and creating a culture of appreciation and effective communication.       Key Takeaways [01:02] Sean Conley, shares his 40 years of experience in learning and development, and he still finds himself passionate about what he does every day. He believes that this passion is crucial in helping others bring out the best in themselves and growing as a leader. [05:44] Sean discusses the importance of creating a learning environment where employees are given the choice to opt-in rather than being forced to participate in learning and development activities. He also discusses the importance of marketing and enticing employees to want to learn, rather than trying to push them into it.  [13:17] Sean encouraged people to pursue their interests and passions using the many available resources for learning, rather than just focusing on memorizing information. Behavior change should be the focus of learning. [15:49] Create white space for personal growth & development, focus on changing individual behavior rather than the whole organization, help people understand various ways to learn, it's about time focus not just management, recharge when needed, encourage learners to create their own white space. [18:11] Sean believes investing in frontline leaders is key for organizational success, setting habits and behaviors that follow them. Senior management should focus on developing talent rather than learning new skills, creating an ecosystem for growth and development and leaving a legacy by developing successors. [20:45] Sean talks about how an organization can't grow if its people can't grow. Growth opportunities should be given when the learners are ready. It's important to focus on behavior change and application of learning to shape an organization. [24:45] Sean answers the question, “What are we getting right and what are we getting not so right about inclusion?”. While there is progress in discussing inclusion in organizations, it's important to not only include those who are present but also consider who is not in the room and ensure everyone has a voice and is part of the dialogue.  [26:42] Sean discusses the importance of diversity of the mind in the workplace and how learning is a key part of shaping the culture of an organization. Different individuals have different learning styles and as such, learning programs need to be designed to cater to different types of learners.  [30:59] Sean agrees that leaders should start with ensuring that everyone in the tribe feels appreciated and valued for their contribution before addressing issues of belonging and inclusion. Sean also acknowledges the challenge of being a busy leader but sees it as a great reminder to prioritize appreciation in both business and personal life [35:19] Sean admits to still working on improving his communication skills and the art of telling, asking, and listening. He stresses the need to ask better questions and not simply react, but to listen intently to pull more information out. This highlights the idea that communication is an ongoing process that requires continuous improvement. [36:46]  When is it okay to break the rules?According to Sean, “Rules are just made up by people and they're made up at a time. So sometimes (it's not really) I won't say break(ing) the rules, but we get to question them sometimes.” [40:41] Closing quote: And remember, “He who learns but does not think is lost. He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger.” -  Confucius   Quotable Quotes "By investing in yourself and by growing yourself, you actually show up better for your customers." "Learning comes with behavior change." “Getting your brain going and learning something is better than none." "It's not time management, it's time focus." "Learning environment is part of how you shape a culture in an organization."  “Be courageous. It's the only place left uncrowded.” - Anita Roddick Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Sean Conley on LinkedIn | Baker Hughes Website | Baker Hughes on LinkedIn | Baker Hughes on Twitter |

Stephen Drum, retired Navy SEAL master chief and author of "Life on the X: A Navy SEAL’s Guide to Meeting Any Challenge with Courage, Confidence, and Readiness", discusses the values and commitments necessary for effective leadership. This is Steve’s second time as a guest on The Leadership Podcast, and in this episode he discusses the importance of being authentic in one's values and purpose along with the significance of focusing on the basics to achieve success. The use of After Action Reviews (AARs) is also highlighted as a way to continuously improve performance by identifying opportunities for growth. Join us as we dive deeper into this conversation about leadership, feedback, and the application of military principles to business leadership.   Key Takeaways [04:26] Stephen Drum talks about the meaning behind the title of his book "Life on the X.” The X represents the critical point of execution on a combat mission, the most dangerous and difficult point. By preparing and training for this point, success can be achieved in less dangerous situations.  [06:38] The first section of the book discusses commitment, values, purpose, attributes, and character.  [09:53] Stephen believes leaders need to focus on the basics, being crystal clear on the desired end state and checking for comprehension. They caution against getting too caught up in technology and processes before identifying the necessary resources for a project or endeavor. [12:40] Stephen believes that brilliant basics consist of giving resources, setting clear expectations and accountability, and coaching depending on an individual's skills and experience. He also emphasizes the importance of contingency planning and emotional control.  [24:48] Stephen explains that the concept of After Action Reviews (AARs) depends on the position and organization, but some clients gravitate towards it while others are focused on the production and don't have time. Steve suggests making the process efficient and identifying opportunities to leverage the experience. Steve finds that clients embrace this approach. [27:20] During a meeting with a client, Stephen realized the client's note-taking gave him confidence they would follow through on the discussed actions. He believes taking notes is important in memorializing information and it helps people remember and take things seriously.  [30:30] Stephen also talks about the challenges of giving effective feedback. Research shows that feedback is often not as effective as we think because people tend to get defensive and blame others or misremember. As a leader, it's important to give future-focused, succinct feedback that only addresses things that can be changed.  [34:16] Stephen explains feedback in the military serves different purposes, such as accountability and documentation, but can also be used to replicate the stress of combat. The military also practices intrusive leadership, which involves getting into people's personal lives to provide support and resources.  [38:14] Stephen reflects on how in special operations, there are peaks and troughs, whereas in the business world, it's go time all the time, and without self-care, burnout is inevitable.  [40:55] People tend to push too hard and can't keep up that pace. Separating work and family can be healthy for some, but for others, it's better to have a more intense focus on work or other activities. In the military, there's no time off during a deployment, and even holidays are not completely free of work. In the business world, it's important to find ways to foster creativity and give employees a break from the grind of their daily work.  [42:29] Identify their next big moment or key opportunity and develop an architecture for success, which aligns with the theme of his book. [43:36] Closing quote: Remember, “You will never do anything in this world without courage. It is the greatest quality of the mind, next to honor. ” —  Aristotle   Quotable Quotes "As the leader, you have to be crystal clear on the desired end state." "We sometimes give into or fall prey to the allure of technology or certain sexy processes." "You're engaging more parts of your brain when you want to memorize something." "If it's serious and important enough, you're going to take the time to put pen to paper." "Feedback is not nearly as effective as you think it is, or that you need it to be." "If you're receiving feedback and it basically could be construed as negative or overly constructive, you're going to get defensive." "Identify what your next big moment or key opportunity is and figure out how you're going to develop the architecture for success." "A lot of people want to work from home, but for many people, it's healthy to have a separation, to go to work and be focused on that and then come home and focus just on that."  "The mind, body, soul is critical. The body piece, rest, nutrition, physical activity, how that contributes to emotions and cognitive ability." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Stephen Drum | Stephen Drum on LinkedIn | Stephen Drum on Facebook | Stephen Drum on Instagram |

With his unique brand of edgy leadership, Dr. Todd Dewett is one of the most in-demand keynote speakers in the world, an internationally sought-after expert, a four-time TEDx speaker, and has been quoted in TIME, The New York Times, Bloomberg, Business Week, Forbes, CNN, and many more outlets. He is the author of “Dancing With Monsters, a Tale About Leadership, Success, and Overcoming Fears.” In this interview, Todd talks about the challenges of work including: facing our fears to build confidence; the generational challenges, boundaries, and when quitting should be considered. Listen in to hear how to deal with your mistakes, how to find “fit,” and the importance of outside counsel.       Key Takeaways   [1:56] Todd’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) Todd comes to The Leadership Podcast through a mutual friend, Dean Karrel; both are phenomenal LinkedIn Learning instructors. Todd and Jan share a publisher. [3:29] Todd is a proud father of two; a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college. They’re the best thing he’s ever done. Todd and his wife are besties and business partners. She is going through a battle with cancer and they don’t know what’s going to happen. Todd strives to understand it and be useful to her as she tries to beat this thing. [5:25] Todd likes most to speak about universal experiences; to take a thing we all know and give it a fresh perspective. Wanting to quit is a universal experience. Is it bad or good? It depends. Giving up too easily is a problem for some people. But quitting isn’t simply bad. It can be strategically very useful. If something is not working out, it may be time to stop investing in it to invest in something better. [7:58] If fear is common at work it may be due to a poor culture or poor managers. But even in great work cultures, fear of what to say and how to act in a new situation is wired into us. We want to please people and be liked. Fear at work is an important topic to explore. Work is affecting people’s physical and mental health in ways that are not productive. We need to learn how to mitigate the experience of fear. [10:33] Fear can manifest as indecision. We walk through a large system of interlocking expectations from ourselves, our parents, our partners, our peers, our supervisors, others at work, and our family. We don’t always know how to navigate it successfully. Sometimes it’s indecision, sometimes it’s rash poor decision-making, and sometimes it’s overreaching. [11:03] What is the reasonable, measured way to deal with that normal anxiety we feel in the middle of all those expectations? Good coaching and some thought will get you through that. The real problem is people who haven’t done the work to narrow down the possibilities and don’t know what their career goal is at all so they defer the decision to someone else. [12:31] Todd delivered a TEDx talk at Texas A&M, long after his Ph.D. there. It was based on his experiences as an employee and a professor, that lots of people love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous. When people innovate or tweak a process, they receive pushback and criticism. Change may be seen as a threat. [14:28] Confidence is both a personality trait and a skill that can be built over time. Todd recommends the repetition of engaging these risks and learning from them in an environment that is supportive of innovation. People like Todd have a job because much of what people do doesn’t naturally mesh with their environments. They don’t fit without some effort. [16:21] The pandemic accelerated thinking about these issues and it came at a time of a generational shift we’ve never seen. There are five generations represented in the workforce. The definition of success is slowly shifting toward what makes the employee happy and find purpose, more than what others think. [16:49] The Great Resignation and Quiet Quitting seem to support that shift. Millennials and Zs do have different professional values in terms of wanting to be a partner and be heard rather than being subordinate and following orders. They want more leisure but also want to feel more purpose than earlier generations. People respond fantastically well when they believe they are heard. [18:26] The key to “fit” is objectively getting the skills that you need to do the work you want to do, and finding people that you enjoy, no matter the thing you’re working on. The skills and the people both feed into your experience of “fit.” [19:36] Todd agrees that there is both a corporate responsibility and a personal responsibility to provide meaning to work. He says, “Never believe the simple narrative.” Millennials and Zs find it shocking that when starting a job, it is important to learn the norms, the rules, the expectations, and what it takes to be a top performer there, before demanding to be heard. It goes both ways. [22:19] People are aging out of the labor force faster than workers are entering it. Jobs have changed over the last 30 years. We lost many jobs and replaced them with service jobs. It may be harder to find purpose and alignment with a low-paying service job than it did with a high-paying manufacturing job. [23:54] No one’s perfect all the time. We have moods, moments, and external factors that impact us. Even on our best days, we’re imperfect. One of the themes in Dancing with Monsters is that “You’re wonderfully imperfect but still perfectly capable of doing amazing things.” Talk about it more than less. It leads to empathy, authenticity, and vulnerability. [24:21] The world of our fathers and grandfathers placed an uncrossable line between the personal and professional. There are some holes in the wall now, but it hasn’t come down. Humans want to have authentic human connections that are meaningfully fulfilling. But instead, we put on a polished, professional version of ourselves that we hope will keep us out of trouble and maybe even get us ahead. [25:04] You don’t have to hide. Most people through conversation can make teams meaningfully better. We need to be validated a little more, understood a little more, and be better listeners. We learn that everybody’s imperfect, and that’s OK. The key to great teams isn’t finding the best talent, but talent is still required. The key is chemistry and getting the best joint performance out of the people that you do have. [26:45] Leaders are sometimes going to go too far. It’s normal. What do they do to show vulnerability? Don’t run from it. Own that. If apologies or statements are needed, make them sooner than later. But first, assume you do not see yourself and the situation perfectly. Find people who have insights into what just happened and ask them for their insights. They see you differently than you see yourself. [27:25] Take time to think about a path forward for using the error to make yourself better. Todd shares a story of embarrassing himself as a young professional speaker by bombing onstage in front of thousands of people. He used it as an opportunity to check his emotions, step back, examine the things he did wrong, and make a plan to fix them and not repeat the same mistakes. He used it to make himself better. [29:02] Writing a monster story is unusual in the leadership space. It came from a mistake! Two years ago, for the third time, Todd wrote a novel, and “It was not good.” He is done trying to scratch that itch! The story involved a vampire in an office and he still loved the idea. After thinking about Patrick Lencioni and others, Todd got excited about a fable and started writing his book. Six hours later, he had the first draft. [30:49] Whatever your generation may be, the “more” that you search should be defined by you, whether it’s just about work, or larger issues in life, Todd still says, “More is always possible.” [32:32] Millennials and Zs have seen all kinds of financial adversity. No one understands success without understanding failure. Todd says he had so many big, fat, ugly failures in his career, it’s hilarious! If you have one or two moderate successes people think good things about you. It’s the halo effect. Todd loves talking about failures.   [35:02] Leaders want to be aspirational but sometimes don’t live the values. The gap between rhetoric and reality causes a massive cultural problem in organizations. Todd promotes more realism with high levels of candor and kindness. When employees make mistakes, discuss the mistakes with kindness and candor and admit your own mistakes. With kindness and candor, you can deal with reality a lot better. [37:27] We’re not great at understanding ourselves or others as much as we think we are. Outside counsel is essential in any success story, for sure! Growth starts when you leave your comfort zone. That’s just a truism. Allow your boss and allow yourself to push yourself, into areas that make you a little uncomfortable. That’s where growth comes from. [38:49] Todd’s closing thoughts: “Having what it takes to become an effective leader and finding success in your career, is not about what you’re born with, it’s about the skills that you build. And with the right effort and the right people around you, any of us can find those things and build those things. It is within our reach. I love sharing that with people.”  [39:37] Closing quote: Remember, “I have learned over the years that when one’s mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear.” — Rosa Parks   Quotable Quotes “Proud father of two; I’ve got a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college and they’re the best thing I’ve ever done, no matter how much I might talk about a book or a course.” “Lots of people, if not everyone, love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the allure of those concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous beyond words!” “We tend to see people respond … tremendously well when they believ

Vitaliy Katsenelson is the CEO and Chief Investment Officer of IMA and the author of three books. His most recent book is “Soul in the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life.” Vitaliy was born in Murmansk, Russia, and immigrated to the United States with his family in 1991. In this interview, Vitaliy contrasts his experience growing up in the Soviet Union with his experience in the United States, and how different his mindset was in each place. He also discusses how Stoic philosophy has been very helpful. He discusses how his essay about Tchaikovsky aims to help others who may be struggling with creativity. Listen in for a vibrant discussion on intention, communication, and vulnerability.     Key Takeaways   [1:53] Vitaliy’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [2:22] Vitaliy loves investing, writing, classical music, and spending time with his family, Vitaliy’s father is a fantastic artist and Vitaliy has a small gallery of his work. [3:49] How Vitaliy sees the differences between Murmansk, Russia, and Denver, Colorado. Denver has lots of sunshine. In the winter, Murmansk has a few minutes of sunshine a day. When Vitaliy lived there, it was Soviet Russia. Freedom of speech and the free market did not exist in Russia. All businesses were owned by the government. Here we have an abundance of food and a lack of scarcity. [6:56] Vitaliy shares thoughts on how Russians and Americans communicate. He read How to Win Friends and Influence People when he was 18 in Russia. He hated the book and felt it was teaching him how to be fake. He read it again 20 years later and was shocked by how brilliant it is. He is re-reading it with his 17-year-old daughter and she loves it. She has an American mindset. [8:06] When Vitaliy came to the U.S. he found that  Americans are very indirect and smile all the time, contrasted with Russians who are sometimes painfully direct. Vitaly was fired from his first American job. The man firing him was smiling at him, which was a confusing signal. Vitaly fine-tuned himself to a balance between directness and indirectness. He tries not to criticize people so his message is clearly received. [9:10] If Vitaliy has a criticism, he first tries to make sure to tell the person positive things.  Then he structures the criticism as constructive feedback. He learned that from Dale Carnegie and living in the U.S. for 30 years. Vitaliy says if he had continued to communicate in the Soviet Russian style, he could not have achieved anything in the U.S. [10:43] Vitaliy’s intentionality comes from the conscious choice to be mindful. To have a work/life balance you just have to be mindful about having the balance. Vitaliy knew he wanted to be a good father to his children. He made a mindful choice to spend more time with his children. He chooses to drive his children to school before going to work on a busy day. [12:38] Vitaliy has a value to be a good father. To live up to the value he has to be mindful about being with his children. If he just went on autopilot, he would just default to the easiest things to do which for him is working 10-hour and 12-hour days. To be mindful, he stops after eight hours. When he gets home and has dinner with his kids, he’s not looking at his phone. He’s present with them, giving them attention. [14:26] To live a meaningful life, figure out exactly what you value and spend your time according to your values. [15:32] Vitaliy sees value in simplicity. [16:50] As Vitaliy was working on the last chapter of his book, he put it on pause to study and write on Stoicism. He studied Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca. Epictetus taught a framework that some things are up to you and some things aren’t. What is up to you are your values and how you behave. Everything else is external and is not up to you. Don’t try to control what is out of your control. [19:03] Vitaliy’s 17-year-old daughter just got her first job at a coffee shop. She finds a co-worker annoying. Vitaliy asked her if she expected every co-worker to be perfect. It’s not up to you how other people are. Vitaliy finds this framework to be simple and elegant; if you embrace the Stoic philosophy it will reduce the volatility and negativity in your life. [20:27] When he learned Stoic philosophy, Vtaliy realized he had made choices in the past unconsciously that were aligned with Stoic philosophy. Adopting Stoic philosophy intentionally has changed his life. He wrote that section of the book as much for himself as for the reader. [21:51] Every three to four months, Vitaliy sends his clients a 30-page letter in a story-telling format. As an experiment, once he sent the letter in a condensed format of brief bullet points. Eighty percent of his clients preferred the long letter. It was easier for them to read in stories than in bullet points. [23:33] You want to be very careful on the receiving side of storytelling and people who are terrific speakers. They appeal to your emotions. Stoics break down the message to its bare bones, to the bullet points. There is a conflict between Stoics and Sophists. Vitaliy acknowledges he is a Sophist in storytelling. At the same time, his values are Stoic. Sophists hijack the message and they may not have good values. [24:56] When Vitaliy encounters terrific communicators, he is very cautious to make sure the way they communicate does not impact his decision-making. [26:17] Music is an incredibly important part of Vitaliy’s life. He has written essays on the music that was important to him at any year of his life. Vitaly gets up every day at 4:30 or 5:00 and writes for two hours while listening to classical music in his headphones. Those two hours every day are very special to Vitaliy. Listening to classical music while he writes has helped his creativity tremendously. [28:07] Vitaliy’s kids made him appreciate chess. It’s one of the few games he likes playing with them. His daughter invited him to play after watching The Queen’s Gambit. After a game, they review the moves, trying to find the solution for the best move possible at any point. It makes an intellectually honest discussion. Jan notes it’s like a military after-action review (AAR). Both become better players. [30:34] Writing music is a very creative activity. When you listen to classical music, think about how difficult it was for the composer to write it. Tchaikovsky left behind many letters to his brother and his friends. His letters describe how he struggled to compose his music. Vitaliy’s book came about because he had been writing an essay about one of Tchaikovsky’s pieces of music. [31:45] Vitaliy read Tchaikovsky’s letters and realized that the suffering the composer went through was so similar to the suffering Vitaliy goes through as a writer. He wrote an essay comparing the struggles of Tchaikovsky to the struggles a creative writer goes through. [32:11] When Vitaliy finished the essay, he realized other struggling writers could be helped by reading it. Over the years, he had written many essays that could help others. So he put them together in a book. [32:45] When you study the lives of composers, you listen to music very differently. You feel the pain they felt as they were writing. You realize that you will have some very difficult times creating, and as long as you love writing, pain is just part of the journey. The lives of the composers made Vitaliy appreciate classical music so much more. There is an incredible amount of hard work, pain, and struggle in creativity. [34:52] Vitaliy finds that parenting and leadership have parallels. But leadership mistakes don’t haunt you for the rest of your life! Vitality exposes his kids to new things all the time. They watch YouTube videos on various subjects. He introduces them to new books all the time. They discuss different topics and he doesn’t talk down to them. He is interested to know what they think. [35:56] As a parent and as a leader, it’s important to be vulnerable. You admit that you don’t have all the answers. When you communicate, spend most of the time in the scientist mode. Whatever you’re looking at is a theory. You are trying to discover truth. [36:59] When you make a mistake you admit it. Then your employees will be more comfortable admitting they made mistakes as well. [37:45] Vitaliy shares a link where you can hear his podcasts and read his articles.  [38:23] Closing quote: Remember, “Do not act as if you had 10,000 years to throw away. Death stands at your elbow. Be good for something while you live and it is in your power.” — Marcus Aurelius   Quotable Quotes “If you insult a person first and then you give them a message, that message will never arrive.” “My daughter and I are reading [How to Win Friends and Influence People] together … and she loves the book!” “Being around your kids while you are reading Financial Times on your iPhone is not being around your kids. Attention is a currency of time. So it’s when I give them that attention, when I’m present, that’s very, very important.” “There is so much value in simplicity.”  “If you waste your energy trying to control things that are not up to you, you’re going to have one miserable life. You’re going to have this emotional rollercoaster of being upset.” “I would argue that if you embraced Stoic philosophy, what it does, it would just reduce the volatility; it would reduce negativity in your life. And by reducing negativity, it’s going to make your life calmer; more peaceful.” “Listening to classical music when I write has helped my creativity tremendously. Studies were done on the subject. And they … showed that when you listen to music, … it forces your left brain and right brain to work at the same time. It basically increases your creativity.” “I have found that there are a lot of parallels between being a parent and being a leader … [but] I guess if you screw up as a leader those mistakes don’t haunt you for the rest of your life.” “When you study the lives of composers, …

Steve House is Founder of Uphill Athlete and a proudly retired professional climber and mountain guide. Jan has known him for years. For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. In 1999 he became only the ninth American to achieve IFMGA certification, which is the highest level to guide all over the world. He has guided trips all across the world. In this discussion, Steve shares his journey from mountain sports to high-altitude climbing, to a nearly fatal fall, to coaching. Besides coaching mountain athletes, his current challenge is getting his pilot’s license. Steve talks about the purposes of mountain sports and how separation from daily distractions while moving your body through nature guides you on your journey.     Key Takeaways   [1:53] Jan shares Steve’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [4:19] Steve thanks Jan and Jim for the invitation to The Leadership Podcast. As a professional athlete, there’s not much that’s not in his public bio. He’s almost a private pilot and is less than a month from taking his final practical exam. He describes a recent incredible flight and the energy flying gives him. [7:09] When Steve was 20, he was studying in college to be an aeronautical engineer. Then he got hijacked by climbing. Now he has the chance to come back and do something he has always loved. [8:17] In 2010, Steve was doing a training climb preparing for an expedition to do a new route on the west face of K2 with an expert fellow climber. He had a bad fall of around 100 feet. He broke 24 ribs. Two ribs were smashed into innumerable pieces. He had multiple pelvis fractures, knocked all the spinal processes off his vertebrae, and had many internal injuries. [9:18] Steve lay on his back for about two hours. He knew he had hemopneumothorax. His breathing grew shallow as his chest cavity filled with blood. What came out of that was a lot of self-reflection. He had to come to terms with his drive to become the very best at what he did. That was his mission statement. [10:45] As Steve reflected, at age 39, he was trying to figure out if he would function again. He had to think about what his values were, and what he cared about and wanted to do. Was it time to change his mission statement? He hadn’t accomplished everything in climbing but he decided he had accomplished enough. He could be proud of what he did do, and he was going to pivot to other values and other goals. [11:57] In elite sports, you’re boxed off from the world. You eat, sleep, train, and go climb. You save all your energy to be better. It’s how you achieve individual greatness. But you’re not part of a team. Steve saw his crisis as a time to reflect and redirect. [13:48] Steve thinks that due to the intensity with which he pursued his goals, he required an intense jolt to trigger reflection. Anything less wasn’t going to work. He notes that most of the people he climbed with are dead. That’s how risky and dangerous climbing is. Steve has only a handful of friends from that era that are still alive. Steve realized he was going to join those who were no longer alive if he continued. [15:29] As a mountain sports trainer, Steve is in a position to help athletes get past the binary narrative of success or failure. There’s a much greater range of possible experiences. We have often seen that the one that came in first cheated or used performance-enhancing substances. The whole paradigm is broken. There is another way to experience sports. Mountain sports do not have a history of competition. [17:02] Steve would tell his younger self he was always going to feel like an imposter, and that was completely OK, and that everybody else does, too. That feeling was one of the things that were hardest for him to overcome. It goes back to childhood. He was the scrawny little kid that wasn’t good at sports. [18:49] One of the things that Steve learned from childhood was grit. He loved gritty experiences from a very early age. When he was 10, he backpacked his first 50-mile hike. When he was 11, he climbed Mount Hood. These were just things they did as a family or with his father. He enjoyed it. [20:37] Steve and his Uphill Athlete team talk about Campbell’s Hero’s Journey paradigm and try to figure out what step their client is on for that journey. The goal is to help them through that one step. Everyone is on the same journey, at a different step. [23:22] Uphill Athlete doesn’t exist to motivate people but to educate and inspire. Coaching is education and teaching people how they can apply endurance training methodologies and see the changes in their bodies. It takes a couple of months for people to get fully bought in and see their progress. When they get to that epiphany, they are committed to the journey for life and remain in the Uphill Athlete community. [25:17] Going back to the imposter syndrome, Steve is often surprised that he knows the answer. And the only reason he can know the answer is because he lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook. [26:05] What holds people back is their minds, their fears, their insecurities, and the pieces that they don’t understand, or can’t conceptualize well. Those are the questions Steven can clear up easily, but he is always surprised. [27:37] Steve tried to teach a man with a Ph.D. in exercise physiology how to coach but it was impossible because he didn’t understand what it felt like in his body to do what was written on the training plan. He couldn’t relate to the people even though he’d run circles around everybody on the science. [28:27] When Steve interviews people to be coaches, he’s looking for people who have a unique superpower. He doesn’t need 15 people that all know the same thing. He needs people that have different backgrounds and experiences and are willing and eager to share with other people and also learn from them. They have to be far enough along on their journey that they can take feedback constructively. [29:17] When you have a team that can do all of those things, it’s incredible. Steve’s team includes physical therapists, medical doctors, masters in high altitude physiology, and coaches that have coached every endurance sport you can imagine. They have great energy between them. [30:29] Some people Steven hires have well-defined superpowers. Some younger people don’t know their superpower. Steven describes how he leverages coaches to develop the superpower in people within a relationship that is entirely a safe place for them to ask those “dumb questions.” [33:39] Steve has a lot of athletes that do not have a set goal. They want to learn and experience and be in a community of like-minded people. Steve tells them it’s OK not to have an Everest goal. Sometimes it’s enough to engage with people as you learn. [36:10] Arthur Brooks’s new book, From Strength to Strength, is about finding clarity in the second chapter of life. [36:47] Steve uses the phrase, “naming the uncertainty.” Write down what you don’t know. Let that sit. People come back to him in a month and say it was great to let that sink in. There are more than two chapters for a lot of people. [37:38] Mountain sports have an important role to play in people’s journeys. Being in the wilderness in small teams and overcoming obstacles lets the noise go away. So much more happens out there than we give it credit for. People are not getting pings out there moving their bodies through nature and letting their subconscious minds do the work. Steve has solved writer’s block many times with a long walk. [43:52] Steven’s final thought: “It’s joyful to learn something. It’s joyful to become fitter. It’s joyful to climb a mountain. … Walking up a summit ridge and standing on top of a mountain is ultimately no different than walking into the grocery store and going to the cereal aisle. But what is different is if you’ve been to the top of the mountain, you have an appreciation for all the rest.” [45:34] Closing quote: Remember, “People say, ‘Are you insane?’ But the most successful climbers are the most calculating, with the most refined sense of risk. They’re hyper-conscious of safety. They’re the least insane people I know.” — Jimmy Chin   Quotable Quotes “I’m almost a private pilot. … I’m less than a month away. … I just had an amazing flight. … I flew from Slovenia down into Croatia, landed on an island, … flew back to Slovenia, landed … in the mountains in Slovenia, Took off from there, and returned to the home airport.” “[After a difficult accomplishment], at the end of the day, you just feel so full of energy and experience and awe.” “In 2010, I was doing a training climb. I was preparing for an expedition to climb a new route, … and … I fell around 100 feet. I broke 24 ribs, … I had multiple pelvis fractures, … [and] internal injuries. … I lay there for about two hours. I had a hemopneumothorax.” “We don’t always need a crisis. Sometimes it just takes a long walk in the woods. But I think that reassessing our values and making sure that they align with our purpose and our mission is probably something that all of us have to do many times throughout our lives.”  “This whole thing of like, ‘If you’re not first, you’re last,’ invalidates pretty much everyone’s  experience except one person’s.” “I loved gritty experiences from a very early age.” “I’m often surprised that I know the answer. And the only reason I can know the answer is because I lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook.” “I’ve written four books now and I can’t tell you how many times writer’s block has just been solved by a long walk — and with no purpose. A walk with no purpose.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: (Golden Ice Ace)     Steve House Bio For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. His most famous ascent was with Vince Anderson. They did the central pillar of th

Gena Cox, Ph.D. discusses her new book that provides powerful insights for leaders to drive inclusion: “Leading Inclusion: Drive Change Your Employees Can See and Feel.” In this conversation, Gena stresses the value of human relationships, and how organizations have vast opportunities to optimize the human experiences for their employees. Gena reveals how a system that doesn’t embrace inclusion will lose employees who don’t feel included. Listen in for how curiosity can help your team feel even more connected.     Key Takeaways   [2:00] Dr. Cox tells how she is the luckiest person in the world. Her grandmother had a grade school education but was an entrepreneurial wizard. From watching her grandmother grow her neighborhood store, Gena learned the value of the human relationship in terms of getting things done. Gena’s secret is that much of what she talks about comes from observing her grandmother and her customers. [2:56] When Dr. Cox was growing up, she wanted to be a journalist. She still sees journalists covering things around the world and imagines herself doing that. She supposes that journalists, like others, have a big “why” about how they can make the world better that lets them keep going. [4:22] Dr. Cox has been trained not to make assertions without evidence to support the assertions. She had known for a long time about the importance of respect. But it wasn’t until the summer of 2020 when she interviewed leaders and surveyed employees about what they think leaders don’t understand about inclusion, black employees said they felt leaders were distancing themselves and avoiding them. [5:54] When Dr. Cox did the content analysis to see the themes emerging from those comments, she came up with the word “respect.” These comments were all about things where people wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. [7:07] It is important not to just think about these issues in the present, but to look centuries back. In our country, there are social dynamics that have existed for generations within a community where there are significant power imbalances. These imbalances correlate with race, ethnicity, and socioeconomics. Ignoring those factors can lead to misunderstanding the experience of employees from those places. [8:21] Dr. Cox wrote one chapter about history at the beginning of her book. It makes a difference if leaders understand the broader context before they try to address specific initiatives or priorities in their organizations because they might miss the mark, otherwise. [9:19] Dr. Cox works with leaders on inclusion and with individuals to think about how they can be the best that they desire to be. It takes two sides of this equation to tango to get the outcomes that we desire. Dr. Cox shares a case of a client feeling discriminated against in their career progress. Dr. Cox suggested they look for what they could do to get past the barrier and jump the hurdle. [10:28] Dr. Cox offers three ideas that can help each of us make that difference for ourselves. 1. Have a big “why” for what kind of influence and impact you desire to have. 2. Have a track where you are working on custom master classes. Learn as much as you can that will help you get to your goal. 3. Amplify and brand yourself within our job. Dress and behave for the job you want. [11:53] If your current job does not allow you to do all that, you might have to do it on a parallel track and keep it moving until you can use what you learn to move forward overall. [14:06] Dr. Cox thinks there is a lot of misinterpretation and reinterpretation that takes place about leaders like Martin Luther King. Dr. Cox does not talk a lot about what specific people have said. Some people hearing a quote may miss the main idea. Inclusion tops diversity. It’s not just about getting more representation of a particular group. DE&I is really effective leadership of 100% of employees. [16:38] Dr. Cox talks about effective leadership to create situations where every single person in a team, group, or organization feels that he or she can put in the appropriate efforts and get the expected outcomes. We all have to have a part in making that happen, especially managers. [17:49] After George Floyd was killed, corporations started offering implicit bias training and hiring Chief Diversity Officers. Those two solutions are just tactics. They need to be added to a strategy that says “Here is what we are solving for.” [18:34] The most important thing leaders can do to minimize the risk of doing things that are not effective is to start by talking to employees about what is their day-to-day experience. Then they will tell you what you should focus on first. [19:20] Dr. Cox would like leaders to attach fewer restrictions to the research-based insights, such as the size of the survey group. The research is too new to be buttoned down. Dr. Cox points to the value of qualitative data or the stories that people tell in this area. These stories haven’t been told before so leaders don’t understand the solutions they should implement. [21:28] Dr. Cox asked about three years ago in a LinkedIn article why, with regard to DE&I, organizations are not utilizing the same strategy and problem-solving techniques that they apply to every other problem. Because of the emotional component, including fear and anxiety, about the topic, leaders are failing to use the same kinds of judgment skills that they might have used for something else. [22:22] What research have you done? Have you gone to a solution without research or understanding what’s going on so that your actions might work? Are you just throwing a dart at a board and hoping that something will stick? You would never do that if you were implementing a new initiative to support your customers or clients because you would know how high the risk would be. [23:18] The number one topic on the minds of boards of directors and leaders today, apart from making money, is talent. Under talent is the shortage of talent.  Why is there a shortage of talent? People come up with a variety of explanations. The data Dr. Cox sees is that there is a significant portion of the workforce that feels alienated from their leaders and colleagues and dissatisfied. [24:31] The latest research says that 50% of Black American employees say that they are thinking about or preparing themselves to leave their current job. There has been more data over the past couple of years because of the pandemic. [24:55] Dr. Cox asks leaders to think about why there is so much dissatisfaction and whether it is true in their organization. If so, what are the elements in their organization that could be causing it? If not true, what could they learn about it? They’re about to have this problem. What can they do to make it better for employees? [25:26] This leads to conversations about compensation, speaking up, well-being, mental health, and a variety of issues that should be at the tip of the spear. [26:31] Rehumanizing the workplace means emphasizing the idea that effective leadership is a pie chart. There’s a piece for task performance and a piece for human performance. All the outcomes organizations are driving to achieve have a human component. [28:23] Leaders are telling employees to “come back to the office and do it this way,” instead of considering alternative ways to work. There’s a significant gap between what employees desire and what the leaders at the top think employees desire. Rehumanizing the workplace means connecting with the employees. [32:50] Dr. Cox doesn’t want to believe that with MBA programs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, organizations aren’t focusing on the human experience. But she believes they are not focusing sufficiently on the human experience. The management of humans has not been balanced with task performance. Dr. Cox wants to do away with the term “soft skills” which are understood to be less than “hard skills.” [34:40] In an HBR article, “5 Strategies to Infuse D&I into Your Organization,” Dr. Cox writes about mitigating implicit bias at the systemic level. It involves looking at data the organization has about existing patterns within the organization of selection, promotion, career mobility, and visibility of people who have a variety of characteristics. [36:15] Leaders often think they are leading organizations where things are better than employees might imply that they are. Diversity is not just hiring diverse people. If new employees walk into situations where the environment is not ready for them or receptive to them, they are not going to stay. It’s important for you to figure out, “What does it feel like to work in my organization every day?” [37:15] Leaders don’t know how their managers behave, day-to-day, or recognize how often those behaviors are having a damaging impact. They don’t put enough emphasis on setting expectations for manager behavior. Leaders need to ask, “Over the years that you have worked for this company, how often have you raised your hand to share an idea and been swatted down?” Optimize the talent you have! [38:21] If you run an organization with customer-facing people, you want to know how the customer is being treated. You should also want to know what experience your employees are having when they’re interacting with your customers, and not assume that the customer is always right! Inclusion is understanding the day-to-day experience of all the employees that you currently have. [40:09] Dr. Cox has spent at least 10 years measuring employee experience, advising leaders about how to use data coming out of employee surveys. Respect is a concept that everybody understands. Nobody seems to know what belonging means. [40:49] Dr. Cox says leaders only need to ask three questions in a survey: Do you feel respected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel respected? Do you feel disrespected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel disrespected? What can we do to enhance your feel

Charlotte Allen is the Founder and CEO of Rebel Success for Leaders. In today’s turbulent environment that demands new levels of collaboration, Charlotte works to create a world where change is fun and innovations are successful. She has over 20 years of leadership experience and is a best-selling author. Her latest book is “Rebel Success for Leaders: Lead, Grow, and Sell Fearlessly.” Charlotte brings clarity to topics including change, project failure, competing priorities, customer-centricity, and what being a rebel brings to leadership. Listen in for insights about STEM experts, influence, collaboration, and success.     Key Takeaways   [1:49] Charlotte tore her ACL in a ski accident a year ago in 2022. After a lot of physical therapy, she got back on the slopes a year later, to the day. [3:01] Charlotte explains why 70% of business change and innovation projects fail. People tend to have an aversion to change of any kind. We power through it, hoping it’ll be over soon, without focusing on the vision of what we want it to be and how to get there. [4:39] Change and innovation each bring something new into the world but innovation has a positive aura around it. It’s the warm, fuzzy bunny version of change. But the number of innovation projects that get to market is not that different from the number of successful change projects. [6:11] Failure is an important thing to describe. When we launch an initiative within a corporation, we often have organizational fallout. Parts of the organization did not get the communication. Parts are not happy. Some employees are asked to leave as a result of the change initiative. The failed initiative may get repeated. KPIs for initiatives need to be set up in a way we can measure them. [8:46] If the leadership is not clear on where the team is going, there will be a challenge to success. If there is no clarity within the team about how to operate, communicate, and work together, there’s going to be a problem with success. We are extremely driven by tools, metrics, and the latest model, without looking at how people are unable to deliver their best work within the boundaries leaders put them in. [10:10] Competing priorities, the squirrel syndrome, and siloed departments lead to failed projects. [11:21] Charlotte discusses the problems that complexity brings. Complexity is not a friend of successful change. [12:53] STEM people in an organization are not getting the same amount of training and leadership development as the sales team, but they are the experts expected to lead change initiatives. They need to learn two languages, the language of deep experts and the language of change, leadership, and development. But not everybody wants to be in every chair on an org chart. [17:45] There is a large predisposition in STEM workers to get into their work, which they are very good at. They come to a time in their career when they wish they had had more exposure to business elements. Folks that can do the translation between deep expertise and business are unique. We need to be searching for them, training them, and putting them into positions where they can lead. [19:58] Publicly-traded companies have to report out; metrics, KPIs, and spreadsheets are a required part of business. [20:26] In 2023, Charlotte believes leaders will spend more time with, invest in, and develop their people. These efforts can result in fewer people leaving and have positive effects on efficiency and employee satisfaction and engagement. Leaders are seeing that, partly because of changes during the pandemic. There is a large social movement for building community. You don’t build community with spreadsheets. [23:01] Comfort is the enemy of progress. People stay in a toxic environment because it’s a known job, and change is more frightening. There are so many other options out there. You, as a person, have gifts beyond what you are currently delivering. If you are in a toxic environment, there is no way that you can perform at your best. [24:53] About being a rebel: if not doing something will not get you fired, then consider it. If not doing something, or doing something, is going to get you fired, think hard about that particular action. Charlotte chose the book title Rebel Success For Leaders for a reason. She has always been able to do two important things: drive a path out of complexity and translate among dissimilar groups, such as silos. [25:47] Charlotte learned that you need to be unique, having the thing that only you can deliver to your business or your professional life. That is your rebel. You need to connect that with market success, timeline success, or the solution you need to deliver to the bottom line. In business, we spend most of the time on the success part, little time on the rebel part, and almost no time on connecting the two parts. [27:38] Success comes from a framework more than a recipe. A recipe is a precise pattern. A framework includes the key parts of a structure that allows you to change and operate within with enough of a scaffolding that you’re not going to freefall. The Forbes HR Council published an article in 2022 that said we are at a global deficit of leaders in every area who are good at change leadership. [29:00] Forbes identified five abilities leaders need to excel at — adaptability, agility, innovation, collaboration, and customer-centricity. Think of these five skills as the scaffolding. How do you have enough mobility within that to move forward and be good at change regardless of the situation? [30:42] Charlotte discusses customer-centricity in the area of STEM. She tells STEM technical experts that every person they interact with is their customer. “You are trying to influence them with your expertise and you are trying to change their behavior because of the advice and expertise you are giving them. So they are your customer. I am your customer because I am your boss, your leader, your manager.” [31:55] That was effective because deep experts tend to speak a lot of “deep expert.” They are used to being the ones that everyone turns to for the answer. They give details. What they rarely do is build a relationship, ask what your problems are, or try to understand your position. When you get an expert to think in a customer-centric way, it tweaks their brain just enough to think in terms of the relationship. [32:54] This gets them listening, looking for common ground, and communicating. They will deliver their expertise in a customer-centric framework. Customer-centricity is the human connection. [35:59] Collaboration is when two people decide to work together for a common goal to achieve a certain output. That is another word that is tossed around by organizations all the time. Not all group activity is collaboration. You must be working for a common goal and a certain output. [37:59] The curiosity of a technical person, when not guided appropriately in interpersonal interactions, tends to be off-putting and feels like an interrogation. When you put the seed in their brain that this is a customer, it starts to affect that conversation in a more positive way. [39:18] Charlotte’s challenge: “My challenge this year to everyone that I connect with is to think about how change can be fun. … I don’t always want it when it shows up at my door but I usually am very excited about it from that space of curiosity. And change can be a lot of fun once you have that framework that helps you guide your actions and your stability and that sense of comfort that you need a little bit of.” [40:28] Closing quote: Remember, “We will always have STEM with us. Some things will drop out of the public eye and will go away, but there will always be science, engineering, and technology. And there will always, always be mathematics.” —   Quotable Quotes “Failure is an important thing to describe. … When we launch an initiative within a corporation, we often have organizational fallout. There are parts of the organization that did not get the communication; parts that are not happy.” “Complexity is not a friend of successful change.” “We all have passion for the work that we do. A lot of folks in that STEM space have a really deep passion for the work that they’re doing for making a difference, for providing those solutions for their organizations and for the customer base that they support and work for.” “Not everybody wants to be in every chair on an org chart. When you find those folks who have the desire and the development opportunities to move spots, then I think there’s really no difference between a STEM person and a salesperson or a CEO, at the end of the day.” “There are so many other options out there. … You, as a person, have gifts beyond what you are currently delivering. And if you are in [a] toxic environment, there is no way that you can perform at your best.” “The customer-centricity, I honestly believe, is that human connection piece that we are all glossing over.” “Collaboration is when two people decide to work together for a common goal to achieve a certain output. That is another word that is tossed around organizations all the time.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Sarah Wirth is President of Ecsell Institute, and co-author of the best-selling book, The Coaching Effect. Her life passion is understanding what makes people tick. Sarah has spent the last two decades researching, writing, and teaching about what the best leaders do differently. In this interview, Sarah starts the conversation with her affinity for pop culture and the lessons for leadership she finds in movies. She tells how Ecsell Institute started as training for sales leaders and expanded into helping leaders in other areas. Sarah and her team gather and analyze survey data to help leaders improve the performance of their organizations by improving their coaching.     Key Takeaways   [2:02] Sarah’s team members say she is a pop-culture guru. She likes movies, TV, books, and music, and she likes to find leadership lessons in them. She did a series on looking for leadership lessons in movies. [2:28] Past guest Dean DiSibio wrote Reel Lessons in Leadership, where he talks about leadership lessons from movies. [3:12] Sarah picks Moneyball as a movie with leadership lessons. The character Brad Pitt plays is trying to lead his team in a different direction and lead it differently than anyone has ever led a baseball team. Jan likes Blues Brothers but would pick Succession (TV show). Jim would pick Ted Lasso (TV show). [6:08] Jan and Jim once asked past guests, “How do you measure leader effectiveness?” That is the purpose of Ecsell Institute. They go to the people that are being led to measure leader effectiveness. Then they compare the results with measurable goals for that position and what the leaders are doing to reach the goals. [7:25] Ecsell Institute looks at leaders that are achieving their goals versus leaders that are not. Then they look at how those leaders are leading differently, according to their team members. That gives Ecsell Institute an understanding of the behaviors of successful leaders. [8:58] The Ecsell questions are behaviorally-based. For example, “When you have your one-to-one meetings, does your leader have you define action steps coming out of them? How often?” They are trying to find leadership behaviors to give recommendations to help others become better leaders. People can learn behaviors to emulate. [11:57] Part of the evaluation is outcome-variable questions, such as whether you see yourself working here a year from now. How happy are you in your job? How much do you trust your leader? Would you recommend your team as a great team to work with? Sarah tells how transparency in sharing the information behind the decisions made has a huge impact on trust. [13:37] The Coaching Effects Leadership Survey is consistent in terms of what it measures. How it applies to an organization is something Ecsell has a conversation about with the organization, in particular, how specific leadership traits fit into the company culture. [15:06] Communication and transparency from Ecsell are key to getting employees to trust the survey and how it works. There is even a final question that is not reported to the client, “On a scale of one to 10, how honest were you in giving your responses to these questions?” Some respondents will put a five, especially in low-trust environments. [17:39] Sarah recommends the Coaching Effects Survey for choosing which leaders to invest in. The high-rated leaders are the ones who are interested in being great at what they do. They are passionate about being good leaders. They’re the ones who want to learn more and improve. Others may have more room for improvement but high-performing leaders have more potential for improvement. [19:42] A lot of times people get promoted into leadership opportunities because they were good individual performers. Sarah talks to the newly promoted leader and to their manager to understand, does this person have leadership capability? It’s a different skill set. You might get an underperforming manager while losing a great performer. [20:40] Sarah recommends that managers ask their team members before promoting them, what is it that interests them about being a leader. If they talk about enjoying coaching and mentoring their peers, and helping others achieve success, that shows they are likely to have an aptitude for leadership. If they just want to move up or make more money, that doesn’t indicate an aptitude for leadership. [22:35] Ecsell was founded to work with sales leaders. It expanded as clients wanted to apply the concepts to other leaders in their organizations. Sarah explains how sales leadership differs from other corporate areas. Salespeople are the athletes of the corporate world. They have to perform all the time. Their performance is measured differently. They have emotional highs and lows. They need coaching. [23:50] If you have a sales coach that does not manage the salespersons as much on the emotional level as on the task level, you’re going to lose out on so many opportunities to help salespeople perform. [24:07] Past guest Dan Pink made the point that salespeople are not motivated by money but by winning. Money is how they keep score. Sarah agrees with this. In an 18-month sales cycle, we have to find different ways to tap into that motivation to perform. A good coach can do that. The monetary goals alone will not drive the behavior. [25:21] Sarah believes it’s a disadvantage for a CEO not to have a sales background. However, a good CEO can learn about sales motivation. Sales teams suffer when they are overmanaged and under-coached. [27:22] One of the measurements of the Coaching Effects Survey is how consistent that leader is in their behavior. The best leaders are a lot more consistent with their team members. The consistency extends to one-to-one meetings, giving feedback, talking about the team member’s career, and following through on commitments. [29:37] When you are consistent as a leader, it makes the moments when you are inconsistent stand out more. Your team members are going to want to dig into it and understand it. If you are very consistent, then, when there’s something off, they might think there’s a pretty good. [30:59] Sarah would coach the importance of consistency starting with questions. She would ask a team member who was behaving inconsistently, “What’s your understanding of what you are supposed to be doing here?” They may not understand the expectations around their role. [31:31] Once she knows the expectations are aligned, Sarah would say “Let’s look at the data. Here’s where you’re meeting it, here’s where you’re not. Help me understand the gap. What’s holding you back from being able to achieve this?” They may need more training or a better understanding of the expectation. [32:04] Sarah doesn’t want to make assumptions about what’s causing the inconsistency. She wants to diagnose the issue with the person and come up with the problem and ideally, to come up with solutions together about what they can do differently. They buy into the solution, instead of being told what to do to fix their problem. [33:20] Sarah shares a client experience. A senior leader had thought the managers were doing one-to-ones, feedback, and career discussions, but they weren’t. The data showed clearly that despite the best intentions of the managers, they were not getting the coaching done. The disconnect between the leader’s perception and the reality in the eyes of the team members was a surprise to the leader. [34:08] So the leader made it a clear expectation. She made their coaching activities and the expectation to do them as part of their year-end bonus structure. If the leaders weren’t doing these coaching activities at a certain percentage, they would lose part of that compensation at the end of the year. The managers took it seriously, raised their coaching, and the company had its best two sales years so far. [35:01] The managers bought into it because they saw their teams were achieving more. They were motivated to keep coaching, even if they weren’t measured anymore, because they saw that it matters. [35:54] Sarah explains the reports Ecsell Institute produces for clients. For every question on the survey, they provide your result, company benchmarks, and top-performer benchmarks, so you can see how you are doing compared to your peers and the best leaders. [36:56] The data shows if you don’t have a strong relationship with your coach, at the core of that coaching dynamic, everything else — accountability, the type of feedback that they give you, how much they push you — all those other things kind of fall on deaf ears. They don’t know that you care and that you’re doing it in their best interest. [37:30] Sarah shares her thoughts on ChatGPT and artificial intelligence. There are certain things that can be helpful in the coaching process, that we can allow artificial intelligence to do, but at the core of it, the human relationship is so essential to helping somebody perform and grow. Sarah doesn’t think there’s a way that you replace that. [37:58] There’s always going to be such an important role that good leaders play because they’re the only people that can establish that human connection. [38:18] Jan just asked ChatGPT “What are the best questions to ask in a 360 for leaders?” In two seconds it responded, “How do I come across to others, in terms of my leadership style?” and “What do you think I need to do to build more trust with my team?” It’s going to be a great tool. Jan thinks it will help us get better. Please listen to Episode 348 for an interview with “guest” ChatGPT! [39:37] Jim heard that at least at one time if you were underperforming in an Amazon warehouse, a robot would come up to you and terminate your employment. That robot “definitely had a sign taped to its back!” [40:23] Sarah’s closing thoughts: “At Ecsell Institute, we are continuing to study leadership across the board and one of the places that we’re starting to study it is in high school and looking specifically at leadership

Vivian James Rigney is a Seven Summits climber, and author of the book, “Naked at the Knife-Edge: What Everest Taught Me about Leadership and the Power of Vulnerability.” A Dublin native, Vivian shares information about his international travels and how he helps senior executives get past their egos, give up old habits, embrace vulnerability, and better serve their organizations. One tool he uses to teach vulnerability draws on his experience near the summit of Everest, where he learned the necessity of clarity and purpose. Listen in for insights on curiosity, peeling back the layers, and getting to the root of issues, challenges and opportunities.   Key Takeaways   [2:25] Vivian is from Dublin, Ireland. He studied business, then traveled the world. He has lived in seven countries, has visited more than 80 countries, and is now firmly planted in New York City. Every time he has launched himself in a new place has been a journey. He has seven books he could write about restarting in each country. [3:20] Apart from Ireland and the U.S., Vivian has lived the longest in Germany. He learned to speak German and French and he can still speak those languages. He lived in Finland for six winters, and he “can speak to a two-year-old” in Finnish. Vivian believes Mandarin and Finnish are the world’s toughest languages. [4:35] To make high-impact goals, first be very clear on the goal. Be congruent with the goal. Understand where your value system comes in. If you’re not fully committed to the goal, the words may be right but people won’t see it as a clear goal. [5:16] Never underestimate the power of subtraction. A list of too many goals diffuses the goals. If you have too many goals, you’ll fail on some. Be honest with yourself about a core list of goals. Say no to less important things. People will understand what the priorities are. [5:59] Acknowledge progress and celebrate success along the way. People need KPIs and progress reports. Success is not easy. In most cases, there has been a lot of toil along the way. There are people's challenges. So step back and learn from the things that could be done better next time. It helps people to be more authentic. It builds a culture of transparency. It changes the culture for the better. [7:31] Past guest Simon Sinek stressed, “It’s a journey. It’s a journey. It’s a journey.” You may never get there. Sometimes, once you’ve got there, it’s depressing. [7:59] High-impact goals benefit and serve others as well as yourself. The people executing the goal do better if they internalize the goal. You can make it clear to them how the end customer is helped by the goals. The minimum should be that your team and people feel connected with the goal. You connect as a leader with your team on an individual level. [10:08] On fact and assumption: Vivian recalls Denzel Washington in The Great Debaters. To be effective leaders we have to be current. Our nature is to operate from habits. That allows us to deal with what’s happening around us. But we have to be current, which means we have to upgrade what we believe. Are we dealing with information that’s relevant for now or a view we held yesterday? [10:50] We may be dealing with strong personalities who sound very compelling and sound good, but blow hot air and are not grounded. We constantly have to be asking what is the fact, and what is the emotion. There is a lot of emotion in the world. Distill down honestly what is important. Get past the ego that drives us. [11:40] Get feedback. Leaders tend to operate in their heads. Do we get perspectives on how others see us and experience us? Their perception is their reality. Use something like a 360-degree survey. Use a sounding board cabinet you can talk to, being vulnerable and open. Being a leader can be a lonely existence. Getting feedback can make you more real and current. [13:58] After getting past your ego, if you want to bring everyone else in a team to a current reality, Vivian says to be wildly curious. If you think something is off, ask about the situation with no judgment but curiosity to get to the facts, layer by layer, saying “Tell me more about that.” Get everyone to hear themselves and recalibrate their report if necessary. Drill down until you land at a point of clarity. [17:01] Vivian lays out a path for building a culture of curiosity in your team. After having a conversation about clarity, ask “What did I do differently today?” You may get observations like “You listened, you asked a lot of questions.” This creates shared learning, as people reflect on what you did as a leader. Ask “How did it make you feel to share more, or as I was asking more questions?” It’s curiosity with purpose. [18:40] Vivian shares some knowledge of the Seven Summits. There is more than one set, with a difference in one of the peaks selected. The people who have done the harder set number in the hundreds. [19:53] With his clients, Vivian uses a metaphor of a backpack filled with rocks. Letting go of the rocks in your backpack is letting go of strategies and habits you used in past roles that are no longer relevant to your senior role. What used to be ballast is now dead weight. Less is more. [22:41] Vivian recently talked a senior leader through the rationale of dialing back his intensity. Asking if it was in the leader’s DNA to get up late and lounge around, the leader knew it wasn’t. Being less intense did not mean he would get less done or lose the respect of his team. [24:34] There’s a basis of fear that has to be overcome. Vivian says it’s the fear of changing the status quo and losing control. Leaders feel they need to stay in control to stay on top of things. That comes at the cost of intuition. To make better decisions faster, tap into your intuition. Controlling too much is slow and inefficient. Releasing control frees you up to harness the strength you’ve built up over the years. [25:25] The purpose of a coach is to get the most out of the person they’re working with. In a business context, mindfulness is more about letting go of ego and being more authentic, having more impact through followership. [27:39] Sometimes we need to shed people. We don’t choose our family but we do choose the people around us. You want friends with net positive energy in daily life. You don’t want to have friends that always take energy from you that you need for other relationships. We deserve to be able to give to and receive from everybody. [30:20] Vivian discusses how to coach somebody to be “more strategic.” Is it that they are strategic but things get in the way, or is it that they are more suited to tactics and execution than strategy? The reality is that they may be in a role they don’t fit. [33:07] The top challenges facing senior leaders today are loneliness, agility, curiosity, and the data to process and use for faster decisions. The most important thing for leaders today is leading people of different generations, post-great-resignation while being authentic. [36:15] As a leader, you have ownership of how you recharge and must give the people on your team the same space to recharge. Recharging means different things for different people. If you demonstrate that you value recharging, while allowing your team room to choose how they recharge, it will show your support. Expect optimal performance from your team in the hours they work for you. [39:20] People may think that climbing Seven Summits makes you a wild, competitive animal that attacks things and figures them out. Vivian writes a detailed story in the book on the power of vulnerability. Everest was difficult for Vivian. On summit day, their guide seemed ill and was mumbling that he couldn’t do it this time. That put Vivian in a dark space with a hugely negative inner dialog. [40:39] Vivian felt a dark cloud overhead. He believed he couldn’t get up or down and he was sure he would die there. He felt a voice come from deep within him, repeating “Why are you here?” He realized he was climbing to prove himself. The voice asked why he was proving how strong, good, and successful he is. He closed his eyes to make peace with his expected demise. [41:41] Vivian’s sherpa tapped him on the shoulder and said if they stayed they would die. The sherpa demanded Vivian follow him. Everywhere the sherpa put his boot, Vivian put his boot. He thought he was going down, but he suddenly realized the sherpa was ascending. He followed him to the summit where he appreciated the view from the top but the cloud was with him until he got off the mountain. [42:37] The learning for Vivian was that we have to know why we’re doing things, not just chasing goals. He appreciates Everest but he regrets not having more clarity in his goal when he climbed it. In many cases, we do things without knowing why. Vivian didn’t need to prove anything. He had already achieved much. [43:08] As leaders, we have to learn when to let go. We are enough. Ask, “How do I use what I have?” Vivian shares with clients his vulnerability and what he learned from it. It induces them to share their story and they build rapport from that. Examples like that help us to be real. Life is all about real experiences. Vivian uses that in his coaching. [44:26] Vivian’s thoughts about the inner voice he heard on Everest: “I think that voice is always with us. … We do have to listen to ourselves, to let go of the noise, and we have to do that by disarming the ego. … We try to get people wise and honest themselves, 30, 40 years ahead of the regret, and have fulfilling times from that point forward.” [46:10] Vivan wrote Naked at the Knife Edge in New York City during the COVID-19 pandemic when he felt a vulnerability similar to the vulnerability he had felt on Mt. Everest in 2010. He said it was time to write the book. He wrote it in a few months, then added leadership pieces and reflections to it. It had taken him 10 years to be ready. [47:33] Closing quote: Remember, “A life is not important except in the im

Erin Shrimpton is a chartered organizational psychologist and a LinkedIn Learning Instructor. Erin has a passion for shaping culture that is true to the brand it represents and strategy it supports. In this episode, Erin shares what she’s  learned about the workplace experience, and how culture is created and influenced by the behavior leaders model. Listen in for a dynamic conversation regarding the psychological aspects of how the environment, and connections truly shape culture.     Key Takeaways   [2:25] Erin was recommended to Jan and Jim by Dean Karrel, another LinkedIn Learning instructor. Jan and Erin have an Irish connection. Jan took students to study abroad in Dublin, Belfast, and Galway to compare and contrast the business and cultural environments between the U.S. and Ireland. Erin was born in Ireland and is based there. [3:41] Erin loves the Beatles! Particularly, The White Album. Erin considers that everybody has some sort of connection with the Beatles. [6:05] Erin talks about changing the experience to change the culture. Recent neuroscience research shows that much of the way we behave is shaped by our experiences. Our experience shapes the pathways in our brains, so much more than we knew before. Apply that to what we experience every day in the workplace. [7:21] Who owns the experiences we have at work? The CEO and senior leaders, HR, IT, Facilities, your manager, and your colleagues. Your colleagues are a large part of your experience. You may be powerless to change the direction of the organization, but you can change your experience with your colleagues. If you’re a great team leader, you can empower them to change their experience, every day. [9:01] Empowering your team to have great experiences may not change the wider culture but when you work together to change the little things about how you interact with each other, you start to catalyze change, because other teams are looking at you. This changes the culture from the ground up. [9:35] Jan refers to a recent NY Times article on assessing job satisfaction and why employees leave. A big factor is that the values the employees have are not the same as the values of the organization. When that happens, Jan tells clients there are three choices: they can work to change things, they can accept things, or they can seek employment elsewhere. [10:34] Erin’s first “port of call” in a similar case is always to examine and see what you can change. There are a lot of things within your control when working in teams. If even your great experiences with colleagues cannot protect you against a toxic culture, Erin encourages people to find another route for employment. That’s only after Erin has investigated with them how else they could change things there. [12:41] In the remote world, it is too early to tell how culture is being affected when people don’t see each other between meetings. Erin is pleased to see organizations getting together outside of their working context for the connection’s sake. [13:22] Erin sees two big issues with remote work: We’re losing opportunities to watch other people role-model examples and more importantly, we’re losing the opportunity to connect with people in an unstructured, water-cooler-type way. Erin sees the second issue as being damaging to our well-being and mental health. The first issue is detrimental to the organization, the second is a societal issue. [14:37] Research says that when we’ve got autonomy over our working day, the outcomes for our work and our mental health are much better, but we need to make sure we are connecting in person, as we can, as well. Use intention to create “impromptu” moments. Networking is essential. [17:08] Erin tells how some younger people (after working virtually) react to one of her in-person workshops with everyone in the room together. They find it nice to be in a group and have banter. But most young people are electing to work remotely. Are they finding moments of connection elsewhere and are they satisfied with that? If they are, do we need to rethink office work? [18:29] Erin sees local people going out to lunch with friends, even going for a swim, and then heading back to their home office for the afternoon. They are getting connections in their neighborhoods, which is good societally but presents a challenge to organizations seeking to create cohesiveness among their employees. Realize that it takes an effort to create connections with people. [20:53] Erin tells leaders we are facing two issues at the moment: revolutionizing the way we work and working out how to keep our teams connected. Erin asks them “Can one issue solve the other? Can you ask your team to solve together one thing that’s bothering them now?” When they feel real autonomy to do that, they get going with it and start that meaningful connection, whether it is local or remote. [23:11] Erin teaches a LinkedIn Learning class, “Use an Entrepreneurial Mindset to Find Success and Fulfilment at Work.” Erin has been intrigued by entrepreneurial thinking since she was a child. When she went into psychology she studied what makes work better for people. Then she assisted in a startup, Innocent Drinks. Everyone there was encouraged to think entrepreneurially. Erin learned how to do it. [24:14] When Erin went into other organizations and coached organizations for culture change, she noticed entrepreneurial people everywhere. Entrepreneurs aren’t just people who start businesses; entrepreneurs are people who think in a certain way about making something better. She also noticed that entrepreneurs absolutely have to find a way to motivate themselves that is not financially driven. [24:49] For most entrepreneurs, their “fortune” is a very long way away, so they have to motivate themselves to get up and find work every day that fulfills them that day. That’s what Erin saw in the entrepreneurial thinks she found at work in various organizations. They are able to find an intrinsic reward in their day-to-day work. [25:17] Being people who are able to find the intrinsic reward in the daily activities of their work, who are able to tolerate the uncertainty of our working lives, and who look with vision into the future are the three main elements Erin talks about in her LinkedIn Learning course. It is a mindset that can be learned. Most people don’t want to start companies but they can find this entrepreneurial mindset helpful. [26:27] To learn a mindset, adopt the behaviors and the habits. As a leader, be a role model of the habits you want others to adopt. Erin asks leaders, "How are you getting people to solve these problems with you?” To change their behavior, people need to feel some responsibility for the outcome. Jan quotes an old Irish mentor of his, Bud Ahern, who said, “People support what they help create.” [28:26] Erin shares information about Innocent Drinks, a very innovative brand for its time. Instead of printing “Use By” on the lid, they put “Enjoy By.” They didn’t think about the rules as they were, but about how they could change things. Erin has taken that with her, ever since. [29:18] Thinking about “how it could be” leads to innovation and creativity. But we are accustomed to operating by rules. We have to have some rules and heuristics because otherwise we would become overwhelmed with the world. Tune in to notice the set of rules by which you operate. Do you need them? How could things be different? Where do you stop breaking the rules, though? [31:01] It is hard as a leader to encourage rule-breaking but not too much. She compares the rules we used to have for our daily work to our rules for this more flexible environment. We have to learn how to be flexible with the rules and use a bit of deep thought about where the line is drawn and whether to break this rule or not. For leaders, it comes back to role modeling and sometimes admitting fallibility. [32:13] A leader may need to explain, “I took this risk. I probably went a step too far and here’s why, and here’s the learning I had from it.” It’s a bit of trial and error. You’re not always going to get it right as a leader but it’s worth that risk. [33:13] We need to be more forgiving as people adjust to what could be our new normal. There is an ongoing level of discomfort we all feel in this transition and we’re not articulating it enough. In 2019, we really had a very different life as a global culture. We don’t know how the future will play out and that’s uncomfortable. Having compassion for this discomfort can go a long way for leaders with their teams. [34:34] Active listening, taking a team member out for coffee, asking people how they are doing, all go so far. Jan cites past guest Margaret Heffernan who said before the pandemic, we were all about efficiency. The pandemic showed us we weren’t very adaptable. Today, businesses are still trying to be efficient while adapting to the needs of the people who run the business. We need negotiation skills. [35:31] A psychological contract with your employer is about the expectations you have going into a job and the expectations your employer has for your performance. You have an unwritten psychological contract but over time the contract gets breached because the expectations of the employee and the employer don’t match. This can lead to disengagement, or it can be managed by good communication. [36:31] If you joined a new organization in 2019, your employment expectations then are much different than your expectations today. We need to be having more open conversations about how our expectations have changed around our working lives, including what employers are expecting of their people. The team needs to understand what the expectations are and how they’ve changed. [37:54] Even knowing about it, Erin also falls into the trap of mismatched or misunderstood expectations. She will find herself frustrated and then recognize she has an expectation about something that may not be realistic. The fi

ChatGPT is the artificial intelligence talk of the town, and Jan and Jim have experimented with it for a few months and share the questions they asked it, and the responses ChatGPT provided. They discuss how ChatGPT can be a game-changer for leaders to spend more time doing what they do best - develop relationships and exercise judgment. Listen in for how AI can be a new tool in your toolbox, and its potential as a leadership enhancer.    Key Takeaways   [1:38] Jan and Jim give a big shoutout to their friend Greg Hinc of County Cork, Ireland. He wrote that he started listening to The Leadership Podcast at about Episode 150, then he went back and listened to them all. He comments on their social media posts. He’s talked a lot about how much he’s learned and gained from it, which means a lot to Jan and Jim. There’s a little gift coming to Greg. [2:34] If you have listened to every episode like Greg, then Jan and Jim would love to hear from you, as well. [4:07] Jim’s friend, Jim Mirochnik of Halock Security Labs, introduced him three months ago to ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence chatbot. After five minutes of interaction, Jim was as excited as when he first learned of the world wide web in 1992. Jim asked ChatGPT a variety of questions and he got back usually well-written answers. [5:33] To test ChatGPT on a task a human probably couldn’t do quickly, Jim asked it, “Write a Java computer program that will take the input of two people’s names and an adjective describing their relationship and create a poem written in Iambic Pentameter.” Within seconds, it wrote a Java program that was pretty close to being exactly what Jim had asked for. [6:17] Jim clarified his question and ChatGPT gave him a better result. Then Jim asked it to write the program in Python and it instantly supplied the Python code on half a sheet. It gave a more concise answer than a human coder might have given and it was good code. [7:01] Jim and Jan share some questions he asked and the answers from ChatGPT from about three months ago. [7:14] Q. Write a 500-word essay on leadership. The answer came in about 35 seconds and it was amazing. Then Jim asked, “How many words is that essay?” It said 532. Jim asked why it went over. It said leadership is a complex topic and hard to explain. [7:54] This morning Jim asked it the same question: Write a 500-word essay on leadership. ChatGPT has gotten a lot busier, with more users. The response today took six minutes. It was very well written again and similar to the first response but it was much more concise at 372 words. ChatGPT is having a deep impact on university students and the way they study. It is a fantastically useful and powerful tool. [8:53] Jan hears people afraid that ChatGPT will take their job. He recently demoed ChatGPT to a CEO. When the CEO asked, Why are there silos developing in my organization? It gave these answers: Lack of communication/collaboration, competition for resources, different goals and priorities, silos created by structure, or resistance to change. That gave Jan and his client five things to explore together. [10:56] If you only had pliers before, now you have a vice grip. What sticks out for Jan is that he has to ask it very good questions and then, exercise his judgment and decide what to look at. [11:27] What Jan did with his CEO client was look at different goals and priorities. They have a retreat planned where each attendee will bring a list of five important priorities and will make sure everyone is clear on roles and responsibilities and where there is overlap. Jan — not ChatGPT — will facilitate the discussion. Jan sees it as an awesome tool. [12:03] Some people get better and quicker responses than others when searching on Google because they know how to ask questions the right way for good search results. That skill is super important with ChatGPT. You get better by practicing and using it. [12:45] There are some things that it can do quickly that might take weeks for a human to do. Jim asked, What are the top five themes articulated in The Leadership Podcast? [13:41] ChatGPT answered, “As an AI language model, I don’t have personal opinions but I can provide you with an overview of some of the most commonly discussed themes on The Leadership Podcast, based on the content available on their website and podcast. Here are five possible themes: Leadership …, personal development, team dynamics, innovation and disruption, business and industry insights.” [14:27] ChatGPT took about a minute to make that analysis. It had indexed and searched the entire site for The Leadership Podcast, so it knows about it. Jim had asked it the same question two months ago before it was able to search websites. Now it can. Its functionality is increasing at a geometric pace. [15:16] ChatGPT is a fun, powerful tool, and its answers are exceptionally well done. Another question was, Can you measure leadership? It came up with a similar answer to a discussion with guest Sarah Wirth - The Leadership Podcast Episode 351. [16:28] Jan asked ChatGPT When I interview Jim Vaselopulos from Rafti Advisors for my podcast, what should I ask him? ChatGPT responded, “As a business strategist and leaders consultant, Jim is able to provide valuable insights on various topics related to business management leadership. Here are some questions to ask during the interview. …” [16:51] “ … How has the COVID-19 pandemic impacted business strategies in leadership and how can organizations adapt to these changes?”, “Can you share a memorable experience from your career that taught you an important lesson about leadership?”, “What inspired you to become a strategist and leadership consultant?” [17:22] “Can you share a particularly successful project you had with a client and what made it successful?” These are good generic questions. They provide a good starting point. Jim cites Atomic Habits, by James Clear. If you want to run, start by putting your shoes on. Then you generally follow through. ChatGPT is a tool to help you jumpstart a report or analysis. It can help you get moving. [18:53] Jan is working with an organization with five good values that has not articulated its values into observable behaviors. One of the values is accountability. Jan asked ChatGPT, What three observable behaviors would you assign to the value of accountability? ChatGPT’s response was, “Honesty and transparency, reliability and follow through, adaptability and continuous improvement.” [19:26] Under “continuous improvement,” ChatGPT added, “They take feedback constructively, they recognize mistakes or failures can be opportunities for growth and learning, they’re willing to adjust their approach …” Jan asked if you, the listeners, know what the values mean in your organization? Don’t follow a robot blindly, but ChatGPT gives a great starting point for a discussion on values. [20:25] Jan says, oftentimes, those [company] values are ambiguous, the culture is by default, and the values and standards cannot be upheld because there’s no agreement on what they mean. There’s no common vocabulary. That’s something every organization could do today. Look at your values and agree on behaviors to associate with them. Can we be more clear on what we want our folks to do? [21:12] Three years ago, Jim and Jan were asked to go out to the Air University in Montgomery, Alabama. They gave a speech summarizing The Leadership Podcast and the guests they had interviewed and the overarching theme they could find. One of the themes that still continues since then was curiosity. The most successful leaders had the trait of being curious. ChatGPT didn’t come up with that! [21:59] The Leadership Podcast is about curiosity. Learning to use a tool like ChatGPT is about being curious. What are you curious about? [22:28] Jan asked When I interview Jan Rutherford from Self-reliant Leadership for my podcast, what should I ask him? ChatGPT responded “Can you tell us a bit about your background, how you became interested in self-reliant leadership?” and “What are the key traits and characteristics of self-reliant leaders?” It didn’t ask a single COVID-19 question, ask about stories or mention entrepreneurs. [23:06] ChatGPT had picked up on those topics on Jim’s website, not on Jan’s. There were relevant questions for each Jan and Jim from their websites. [23:18] Another question for Jan was “Are there any common misconceptions or misunderstandings about self-reliant leadership that you would like to clear up?” That’s a good question. During this episode, Jan and Jim were curious, tested their assumptions, and learned something! [23:40] Curiosity is such an important theme. ChatGPT is a vehicle to supercharge your curiosity and enlighten yourself in ways that you couldn’t without reading books that you may not have time to read. [24:27] Simon Sinek was a guest on the show and they asked him, “Where does personal responsibility and a sense of real duty to each other start to play a role, especially now (during the pandemic)?” So Jan asked ChatGPT that question. [24:42] ChatGPT had interesting answers, ending with “To foster a sense of personal responsibility and a duty to each other, it’s important to prioritize empathy, compassion, and kindness. We can start by listening to and understanding the needs and concerns of others, being willing to make personal sacrifices for the greater good, and taking action to support our communities in meaningful ways.” [25:09] Jan plays Simon’s answer: “Trust is a two-way street. Just think of any relationship: friendship, marriage, or anything. Trust is always two ways. In a business context, where there’s formal hierarchy, it is the leader’s responsibility to create the environment in which trust can exist.” [25:41] (Simon continues) “To build a circle of safety and create an environment in which people feel safe to raise their hand and say, ‘I made a mistake,’ or ‘I need help,’ or ‘I don’t understand,’ without any fear

Nicole Kalil is the Confidence Sherpa. She’s the author of “Validation is for Parking,” and a leadership strategist, respected coach, speaker, and host of the “This is Woman’s Work” podcast. Nicole sees that women and men approach confidence very differently. She discusses how appearing confident is very different from being confident. Real, authentic confidence produces executive presence, and is a catalyst for effective leadership. Listen in for new insights on confidence and how it affects team success, and professional fulfillment.   Key Takeaways   [1:25] Jan and Jim want to know if you have listened to every episode of The Leadership Podcast. If you have, please drop them a line. They may have something for you! [2:27] Nicole is a partner to her husband, a mom to her nine-year-old daughter, a hotel snob, a wine and cheese enthusiast, and a reluctant Peloton rider. [4:23] Nicole wrote Validation Is For Parking to discuss confidence through a feminine lens. At the time she wrote the book, 92% of business books were written by men. In her finance job, all her mentors were men. Nicole felt an imbalance. She wrote the book with women in mind. Her intention isn’t to be exclusionary. She hopes people who identify as any gender will read it and have good takeaways. [6:29] Nicole took the filters off and wrote what she felt and knew, having women in mind, and sharing stories she felt would be most relevant or help people feel less alone. She wrote it almost as a journal and then realized someone was going to read it! It felt important to her, in writing a book about confidence, to put it all out there and be authentic and true to herself. [8:22] In work environments, confidence is when you trust yourself firmly and boldly. When you walk into an environment where you’re “the other,” you may spend a lot of your energy trying to navigate how to fit into the culture and the environment, and in doing that, you tend to lose some of your authenticity; you tend to lose some of yourself. That impacts your confidence. [9:11] When negotiating for a salary increase or a promotion, women are coming to those conversations with less confidence than their male counterparts because the way they would do it authentically or naturally is different from the way that is being encouraged, supported, trained, or recognized in the culture and environment. Jan cites past guest Jeffrey Pfeffer on the seven rules of power. [10:24] How are we defining power? Nicole defines power as showing up with true and vulnerable emotions, not as inauthentically looking confident or powerful. [12:53] The boss is the keeper of the culture. If your being authentic doesn’t fit in the culture, this is the opportunity for the boss to say, “This is just not the right place for you.” [13:16] If you’re accentuating something about yourself so much that it’s repellent to others it may be worth questioning if you are actually showing up authentically at all. You’re probably doing that in reaction. Nicole shares an experience from when she was trying to fit in. Looking back, she sees that was not her authentic self. [15:34] There isn’t one right, definitive answer to just about anything. We come to every situation, conversation, or event with our beliefs, values, experiences, and interpretations, and we think that those experiences, interpretations, and values are right or true with a capital T. What one person believes is right and true may not be right and true for everybody. [16:31] Nicole is trying to practice being more empathetic, better listening, being more open, and communicating, “This is the way I see it and I’m open that there may be another way to see it,” and being curious about that. [16:49] Nicole sees all of those things as a practice in being and becoming a better leader. They make us better relationship-builders, and developers of others, and create safer, healthier, and more productive environments. [18:24] Leadership and allyship are very closely connected. Be curious, listen. When you ask a question, believe what people are telling you is their perception or interpretation, and try to have empathy around that. All of us have the opportunity to create more balance. [18:57] Understand that the masculine approach to success in business is alive and well. There is the opportunity to bring in, recognize, and reward the more feminine side, as well, within yourselves and your organization, and your culture. Be aware and pay attention. [19:26] It helps people to have someone they trust and have a good relationship with. Be a coach to others when they say something that they may have meant in one way, but that might have been interpreted in another way. Most people can be very forgiving if they know you’re coming from a good place. Knowing where you’re coming from makes all the difference in the world. [22:21] Nicole discusses executive presence. It’s external; what we show to the world. We have an impact on how people see us. Nicole distinguishes it from confidence. Confidence is about firm and bold trust in self. Confidence in others is trust in them. Confidence leads to executive presence and that leads to leadership. [24:02] If you bypass confidence and go for executive presence, you can look confident but at some point, if the internal component isn’t there, it’s going to become painful to you and obvious to others. Don’t be focused on how you look to others but on who you are and what you bring to the table; what it is you can, and choose to, trust in yourself. [25:24] Nicole discusses the gender component of confidence vs. competence. Women tend to over-rotate on competence. They believe they need to do it all, have it all, and look the part; get all the designations and check all the boxes. It’s very much about how it looks. But you cannot be competent at anything you’re doing for the first time. Competence takes time. [26:00] Confidence is a choice we can make any time we want. Confidence is on the road to competence. Competence will then circle back and increase your confidence as you go. But there’s always something more to learn and skills to develop before you are fully competent. Instead of “Fake it till you make it,” Nicole says, “Choose it until you become it.” Choose confidence continually. [26:55] Women, especially, feel they need to be 100% ready before taking big actions. But 100% ready is not available to any of us when it comes to doing something new. We do most meaningful things with a combination of excitement, fear, readiness, and doubt. [27:34] For a lot of women it’s letting go of the unachievable expectation that you’re going to be 100% anything. Trust that you’ll figure it out as you go. Trust that if you don’t do well, you’ll be OK; you’ll learn something to take to the next thing you do. Trust that you’ve done what got you here, and you can apply your unique talents, strengths, and abilities to this new thing and you will get there. Trust in yourself. [29:03] Nicole saw integrity as strong moral principles or being honest. Her background is in finance, where being honest is important, and doing what’s best for your clients. In terms of a strong moral standing, who decides what that is? Do personal things bleed into the definition? Nicole had a struggle with the word, which forced her to look at the definition. [30:08] Nicole loves the second definition of integrity: the state of being whole and undivided. That’s what we need to be talking about, is being so true and trusting in ourselves that we show up with all that we are, we own everything that we’re not, and we choose to embrace all of it. And that would lead us to bring our full and best selves to the leadership table, to our businesses. [30:52] Nicole sees power and magic in knowing who we are, owning who we are not, choosing to embrace all of it, and showing up as our full and best selves. That’s how we should be talking more about integrity. [31:46] We’ve over-rotated in society and we try to “save” people every time they express that they are not meant for something. We think everybody can be anything they want to be. That’s not an available option for any of us. And, unfortunately, we think that we should do and be everything. What we end up doing is watering down our unique abilities and unique talents by trying to be everything. [32:32] Nicole refers to Essentialism, by Greg McKeown (a previous guest). We don’t stay in our lane because we don’t spend any of our time figuring out what our lane is. In order to do that, we need to know what our lane isn’t. There is power in owning what and who you are not meant for; what and who may not be meant for you. Being able to discern that will put you on track for what you are meant for. [33:16] Purpose is not one thing but we all have a purpose. It’s confidence-boosting to sift out the things that are not meant for you. [34:42] The biggest “Aha” that Nicole would tell her younger self is how much her failures, missteps, mistakes, fears, and doubts built her confidence and contributed to her success and purpose, more than her achievements, successes, wins, and things that came easily. It doesn't hurt any less when she’s in it, but when she’s experiencing bad feelings, she tells herself all that’s missing is the benefit of hindsight. [35:26] Nicole reminds herself that she doesn’t yet know why the negative thing is happening, but she trusts that it is serving a purpose. It’s a gift, a lesson, a redirect, or an opportunity. There’s some other way to see the thing that’s happening that is going to work for her betterment. She trusts that in those moments. She wishes she would have failed more often and risked more, earlier on. [36:40] Letting your children or employees fall is a struggle, but they go through it for their growth. You want to protect. You want them to be happy. Nicole and her husband are clear that they want to protect their daughter as much as they can from things that fall under health and safety that a

Ed O’Malley is the Founder of the Kansas Leadership Center, President and CEO of the Kansas Health Foundation, and the author of four books, including his latest, “When Everyone Leads.” Ed discusses how leadership differs from authority, and that authority is required to lead. He explores the disruptive aspects and the risks of leadership. Ed explains the type of problems authority solves and the challenges that require unleashing the leadership of the whole team to move forward. Listen in for how to move forward when faced with daunting challenges.   Key Takeaways [3:25] In Ed’s book, When Everyone Leads, the key is getting people to separate leadership from authority. In some situations, the reliance on authority gets in the way of progress. We need people to know that even if you’re not the captain of the team or boss, the toughest challenges require your leadership, also. The book is about how you unleash that in everybody. [4:45] Ed talks about over-reliance on authority. Authority is necessary, but it’s not sufficient for making progress on our biggest problems. Challenges between people need to be resolved by the people involved. [6:14] On our toughest challenges, none of us know exactly the way forward. Trust that the collective is stronger than one person’s idea. If we unleash the leadership of others, so they feel empowered to exercise that leadership, then we start making more progress. [6:49] If we assume that we have the answers and we know the best way forward, that conveys a lack of trust in the collective. The toughest challenges get solved by people working together. [8:46] The book is about the toughest challenges. A prerequisite for unleashing leadership in more people is to help people break apart the idea of leadership from the idea of authority. They are different things and people know this intuitively. Ed uses the example of Rosa Parks showing leadership by choosing her seat on the bus. [10:20] Ed wants people to be conscious of the differences between authority, leadership, people holding positions of authority, and people exercising leadership. Sometimes people in authority exercise leadership. Sometimes People not in authority exercise leadership. Sometimes nobody does. If people see it separately, it opens up a conversation about what the exercise of leadership looks like for them. [11:22] Jim cites Jim Detert, author of Choosing Courage, regarding the courage it takes to step up and face big problems. [12:08] Julia McBride, Ed’s co-author on the book, would say it’s all about clarity of purpose. Those who exercise effective leadership are clear in their deep purpose, and clear on the purpose for the meeting they’re walking into and the role they play in that meeting. They’re clear on the purpose of the project they’re a part of. [12:46] A lot of people’s purpose is to keep their boss happy. Our toughest challenges are usually about something a lot bigger than that. Leadership is motivating others to make progress on daunting challenges and it hardly ever happens. [14:24] Ed cites the work of authors Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky who pioneered the concept of the Zone of Productivity, where there is enough conflict that people are uncomfortable enough to change the status quo, but there is not enough conflict to shut people down. If you don’t have enough conflict, nothing is changing. If you have a lot of heat at work, consider if progress is being made in the work. [15:32] If the conflict or heat from the top is not leading to progress, then it’s time to ask questions and intervene in the lack of progress. [16:52] An executive team needs a common language to talk about the dynamics of productivity. [17:30] Leadership is always about disrupting things. Ed quotes Marty Linsky, “Leadership is disappointing your own people at a rate they can absorb.” When you’re intervening up, you can’t anger the boss too much; you might be out! But If you’re just keeping the boss 100% happy, you might not be doing anything that looks like leadership. [18:02] Jan recalls Jeffrey Pfeffer’s 7 Rules of Power. It’s evidence-based, controversial, and makes people very uncomfortable. Two of the rules are “Break the rules,” and “Show up in a powerful way.” These are hard to do. You’ve got to know how far you can push a boss before you’re damaging yourself. [18:36] Ed goes back to being clear about purpose. If your purpose is to get along, be secure, and not rock the boat, you will not get close to exercising leadership. If your purpose is “I want the best value for my clients,” or “I’m a sales leader and I’m taking the organization from this level to that level higher,” then you’ll be willing to disrupt the norms. Leadership is always disruptive and risky. [19:18] Ed says all of our research is showing if you get lots more people exercising leadership and intervening to create more progress it makes it more likely you’ll get the progress. It’s too tough for one or two people to do alone because it’s too disruptive. [20:01] A chapter in the book explores the clash of values. Our toughest challenges are often about value clashes. You may have a value of gaining market share and a clashing value of playing it safe and not developing new products because you have a legacy product that has been winning for so long. Leadership is always about helping a system elevate one value over another. There is loss in that. [21:31] Anyone can ask powerful questions. Ed explains that a powerful question comes from deep curiosity and it’s open-ended. A question that has an exact technical answer is not a powerful question, it’s a fact-based question. Powerful questions help everyone learn. “What’s our greatest aspiration for our organization?”, “What concerns us the most?”, “What makes progress so hard on those things?” [22:56] Big open-ended questions are powerful and are often game-changing. Powerful questions often make us uncomfortable. They should force us to slow down a little bit and reflect differently. [24:33] Ed interviewed a sage one time who told him, “Ed, that’s a great question! And it’s a great question because it doesn’t have any answers!” If there’s an easy answer, it might not be a good question. [25:01] If what you’re working on isn’t a daunting challenge; if it’s run-of-the-mill stuff; if you’ve got a deadline and the work is technical, and you’ve got to meet it, you’re going to drive everybody crazy if you’re walking around asking big, open-ended questions all the time! It’s when you’re trying to focus people on the things that matter most that these powerful questions are so needed. [26:10] Less senior people may be granted some grace in asking open-ended questions to reveal less knowledge of the organization’s purpose. More senior people may ask powerful questions that tend to shape expectations: “How will we respond to some inevitable failure in our attempts to do X?” This introduces the concept of being adaptive. [28:49] The book discusses technical problems vs. daunting adaptive challenges. If you have the authority, say, “We’re solving this technical problem this way.” But it is a mistake to treat a daunting adaptive challenge as if it were technical. Those types of challenges where the problem is poorly defined and the answer is unknown cannot be solved by your authority alone. You won’t get progress. [30:34] Jan tells about Bill Dean. They would be at a problem situation and Bill would say, “OK.” It meant he acknowledged, he understood, and they would step back and pause before trying to find out what the issue was. He said OK, and everybody knew it was going to be OK. Jan learned to step back when people are hitting the Panic button. Ed says, on the toughest challenges, help people to go slow. [33:32] Have the awareness to discern when you’re facing something adaptive where you don’t know the way forward. In that situation, progress is about creating a system that can be iterative, that can be experimental, that can take smart risks, learn from them, and take bigger risks. If the situation doesn’t call for that and we bring it, we’re just going to create more problems. [34:10] There are a lot of big ideas in the book. One is knowing the difference between the technical problems and the adaptive challenges. They require you to lead differently. Another idea is that your authority is a resource but it is not enough to solve adaptive challenges, so you unleash leadership for others in an iterative, learning environment where risk-taking is expected. [36:25] There are expectations on those in authority. Ed repeats that leadership is disappointing your people at a rate they can absorb. People have expectations of those in authority and history is full of examples of what happens to people in authority if they disrupt those expectations too much. Live within the expectations, but push against them, as well. [37:04] Ed explores how those in authority successfully used leadership during the pandemic to be firm and specific about the process they would use to solve the issue without going into what the outcome of the issue would be. They used authority to help people feel safe and that there is some order to things. They talked about the timeline for bringing the best people together to solve the problem. [38:16] Jim compares how Jessica Chen from the previous podcast episode described the same situation of describing the process you are going through to arrive at an answer when dealing with ambiguity. Jim recommends listening to that episode, as this is a big and important concept. Ed agrees, it is important, but it is hard to practice. Go back to knowing whether it is an adaptive challenge or a technical problem. [39:31] If it’s a technical problem and you are in authority, use your authority to solve the problem. For listeners who aren’t in authority, Ed reminds you to break apart authority and leadership. If you connect them, it lets everybody off the hook, and it’s the CEO’s job. That puts too much p

Jessica Chen is an Emmy Award winner, keynote speaker, former journalist, and CEO of the global business communications agency Soulcast Media. She is a top LinkedIn Learning instructor with over two million learners on self-awareness, personal branding, and executive presence. In this conversation, Jessica shares her knowledge of the essential qualities linked to emotional intelligence. This episode contains counsel for leaders on communication, storytelling, and self-confidence.   Key Takeaways [2:50] Jessica recently became a new mom. Her little boy just turned one. Becoming a mother was a huge life transition for Jessica. She read parent books about it, but when the baby was born, Jessica learned you’ve just got to roll with the punches, taking care of a baby. [5:55] Jessica teaches executive presence as how you make other people feel. It depends on the situation and the people. It is learning the soft skills of emotional intelligence. Unconscious bias leads to differences in application between men and women leaders and young and old leaders. Having self-awareness, and speaking clearly and precisely can help you show up and be heard as you want. [8:38] Building credibility is learning how to talk about the things that you have done and owning that. That’s a part of showing up. [10:17] Do you deal with a difficult boss? It’s hard to do good work when you’re micromanaged. Jessica asks, how can you reduce this communications friction? Ask yourself, “What does my manager care about?” Speak their language, consider to whom they are accountable, make them look good, and anticipate what they need. Care about what your manager cares about. Then they will feel you get it. [12:19] If your boss is a bully, that is a terrible position to be in. If you have identified that your boss is completely treating you unfairly, that is not the right environment for you. Ask yourself what are your options. [14:27] If you have lots of substance but very little style, Jessica has some tips for you. Put some color in your speech. Growing up as a woman in a traditional Asian family, Jessica was not taught to put color in her conversation. She was taught to do the work without disturbing anybody. That way of working is not going to help you build the visibility you need in a workplace with charismatic people. [15:24] Style is what makes you memorable. We all have to do good work and perform in our job. It’s expected. What makes you memorable is your ability to add some color, meaning energy. The words that you choose to say and the energy and emotion you use can make you stand out with color and style. Finding your color and style makes you memorable. [16:55] Jessica talks about brand. Jessica calls it your career brand. All of us need to think about building a career brand. It’s not about social media, although she says LinkedIn is a fantastic place to build your career brand and thought leadership. Thought leadership is important in people seeing you as an expert. [17:47] For listeners not on LinkedIn, consider how you can build thought leadership within your team and organization. Seek opportunities to contribute to a workplace blog. Or simply be more visible by getting on board with some projects so people in other departments can see you. [19:33] A person at a company can make a story good by humanizing it. Who are the people that the numbers in your presentation represent? Behind every customer number is a person with experience and a journey. Humanize the metrics to share the difficult journey the customer went through. Don’t just report the issue, find somebody to report the issue through. [22:35] To influence your team to adopt a new process, tell the process through someone’s lived experience. Use a made-up name with a real event. [24:03] Jan and Jessica both acknowledge and thank Dean Karrel at LinkedIn Learning for connecting them. Dean is the ultimate connector, asking for nothing in return. [26:23] In the working world, you need to take a lot of information and condense it. The schools should teach conciseness and precision in our speaking. If you’re speaking too long, pause and ask yourself this question, “What’s the point I’m trying to make?” Then get back on track and get to the point. You can say it out loud: “What I’m trying to say here is, A, B, and C.” [29:13] Jessica shares an aphorism: “A wealth of information creates a poverty of attention.” In communication, capturing people’s attention should be your priority. Think about what your audience wants to hear and what they care about. You may have 10 things to share, but what are the three things you want everyone to walk away with? It takes more work to winnow it down, but it is well worth it. [31:03] Good presenters connect their points seamlessly. They communicate the link between the points. It’s up to the presenter to talk about that. Use transition words, like “In addition,” or “this brings me now to this point.” Present the relationship between A, B, and C clearly. [33:02] Jessica prefers to prepare carefully rather than be thrust into a high-pressure situation where she has to think on her feet. But she had experience in her journalism days of being thrown into a breaking news situation and having to report the story as it unfolds. Sometimes on the scene, it is sufficient to report what you have already done. That may be what people want to know. [34:03] Communicating the process is a part of communicating and people appreciate it. [36:20] Jessica taught a LinkedIn Learning course on Speaking Up at Work. If she could go back and add one thing to that course, it would be along the lines of building an inclusive speaking environment. How can we all take a proactive approach to making others feel more comfortable speaking up? How can we pave the way for the more quiet person to raise their hand? The loudest person often gets the attention. [38:34] Western society values people who are able to speak up. Eastern culture doesn’t tend to put as much value in verbalizing thoughts but the people still have thoughts. Folks who are working with Asians or other minorities on their teams need to be open-minded about some of these assumptions. Being quiet doesn’t mean they don’t care or they’re not engaged. They still want to contribute. [40:00] It can be detrimental to generalize. There are so many different Asian ethnicities. In general, Asian men and women both tend to be humble and show respect and pursue harmony. Being quiet doesn’t mean they don’t have a lot of value to give. [41:28] Past guest, CEO Colleen Abdoulah had a rule at her company, “Hold your views lightly.” Jan and Jessica agree that having self-awareness and open-mindedness about the people in the room and not assuming certain things about them. There is a diversity in thinking and a diversity in processing. That can help us be more inclusive speakers. [43:19] Jessica sees people struggling with confidence in how they show up in the workplace. They don’t feel confident speaking up in a meeting and being perceived the way they want to be perceived. Jessica’s specialty is teaching the communication tool to show up and speak up better. She tells them she is happy they are acknowledging this friction and are taking steps to build their confidence. [44:29] The only way to become more confident is to put yourself in these positions and continuously practice while doing it consciously. [46:38] Jessica’s advice to senior workers who are reluctant to speak up: “These days, there’s always such a reaction to people saying things. … Trust your experience. … Clearly demonstrate your understanding of a thing you want to express. Qualify and quantify what you want to say and then package it in a way that shows your expertise. People will listen. … Own it and provide examples.” [49:21] Jessica’s challenge to listeners: “I truly think communication is one of the most important skills for workplace success, regardless of what level you are at. I would challenge the listeners to think about ‘How can I improve my communication skills this year at work?’ … Whatever it is, there’s always going to be great ROI if you invest in your communication skills.” [50:33] Closing quote: Remember, “Great is our admiration of the orator who speaks with fluency and discretion.” — arcus Tullius Cicero   Quotable Quotes “If I’m doing a presentation and I want to get my team excited … [I] can leverage some of the soft skills to get them to feel that way.” “All of us need to think about building a career brand. But it’s not in the way of social media, especially if you’re working in a typical office. … Though, I will say LinkedIn is a fantastic platform to build your career brand.” “Ask yourself, ‘What’s the point I’m trying to make here?’ … Clarify and get back on track. … Sometimes you’ve just got to remember to reign yourself back in.” “Every good presenter is able to connect their points seamlessly.” “How can we all take a proactive approach to making others feel more comfortable speaking up? How can we pave the way so that the more quiet person on your team feels comfortable raising their hand?” “The only way to become more confident is you just have to put yourself in these positions and continuously practice while doing it consciously, of course.” “Communication is one of the most important skills for workplace success, regardless of what level you are at. … There’s always going to be great ROI if you invest in your communication skills.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Jamie Ryder is the founder of Stoic Athenaeum. He’s on a mission to make philosophy sexy and down to earth. He’s focused on breaking stigmas about mental health and leadership. He says that everyone has a philosophy they live by every day and the more they understand their philosophy, the more they will know how to communicate with others. Listen in for wisdom on stepping back for a wider view to move forward.   Key Takeaways [1:57] When Jamie was young, he wanted to be either a wrestler or a writer; two different types of storytelling. He always liked the larger-than-life characters of wrestling. When he was 16, he trained as a wrestler in Manchester. But while wrestling was fascinating, he had more aspirations to write stories. [4:32] Jamie believes philosophy needs to be lived. He has never been trained in philosophy academically. He describes the attraction Stoic philosophy holds for him, including the mental health aspect of it. Everybody has a philosophy or values they show up in the world with, that makes them who they are. It’s something that you live and breathe. [5:54] Jamie believes there are therapeutic mental health benefits to philosophy. [6:44] Philosophy permits you to be vulnerable with yourself. There is always an amount of uncertainty you will have to deal with. Stoicism helps Jamie identify the things he can or can’t control and navigate uncertain situations, such as the pandemic. [7:17] Jamie recommends two practical exercises: “The Premeditation of Adversity,” attributed to Seneca, and “The View from Above,” by Marcus Aurelius. The Premeditation of Adversity builds resilience. Imagine the worst-case scenario and prepare for it. It helps Jamie calm down any anxiety he has about upcoming events. The View from Above is to take a high-level perspective of a situation. [10:01] Give yourself permission to carve out time to practice The Premeditation of Adversity before events and The View from Above after events. [12:00] By studying philosophy, Jamie learned that values are intrinsic in us and we have the power to make experiences make sense to us. By looking at different philosophers and schools of thought, Jamie instilled their activities and lessons into his life. Philosophy is a lot of small acts you do again and again. It becomes accessible and habit-forming as you repeat the exercises. [13:43] Jamie would recommend that you start exploring philosophy with Meditations, by Marcus Aurelius. You don’t need to know philosophy or Stoicism to understand Meditations. Marcus Aurelius was journaling for himself, 2,000 years ago. You can see he was trying to be an honorable person. If he had a bad day, he tried something different. On the second reading, it took on new meaning for Jamie. [15:09] Jamie also recommends Letters from a Stoic, by Seneca. Seneca was writing to his friend, distilling lessons he’d learned over a lifetime. You can pick one letter to read a day, and you will find something that resonates with you today from 2,000 years ago. [15:36] Stoicism was Jamie’s gateway into philosophy. He has also studied Skepticism, Existentialism, and Epicureanism. Another book recommendation Jamie gives is The Essays, by Michel de Montaigne. What de Montaigne wrote about a few hundred years ago are the same issues people face day in and day out. [18:09] Jamie explains the symbiotic relationship between creativity and curiosity. [20:10] Stoic philosophy involves stepping back and slowing down, which is different from typical business goals. At its crux, it’s about trying to focus on what you can control and what you can’t control. It means taking a break from things. [21:45] Jamie shares tips for creative writing for business: have a tone-of-voice guide beforehand and then you can push the message across social media, emails, and wherever you need to be to communicate that message. Create it in a voice that makes sense to you and has a connection to the audience you are trying to build community with. [23:30] Michel de Montaigne created the genre of philosophical writings known as essays. He created boundaries around himself where he could be alone, take a moment to breathe, and be himself. [26:36] Writing tips: Start with writing a stream of consciousness. This goes back to de Montaigne. Create an environment where you feel comfortable, such as going for a walk or an activity that you are happy to do. Take a step back, then go back to it. Read as much as possible and pick out ideas you might not have thought about before. Distill it down into what you are trying to create on the page. [28:05] To learn storytelling, start with authenticity. “This is my story. I’ve been through this and it makes sense to me. It communicates to the audience, as well.” It needs to have substance and reflect your values and principles. If there is a cause you support, you need to have the substance behind it, as well. Use ethical rhetoric to support a cause that has substance. [29:13] Cicero used rhetoric to great effect. Aristotle introduced the three proofs: Logos, Pathos, and Ethos. [30:28] Leaders need to be concerned about their people; they need to learn to lead themselves so they can lead others. Logos is for persuasion. Ethos is your character. Pathos is connecting with people and empowering them to share their emotions or connect with their customers. Others have different views. [32:18] Jamie’s storytelling advice to leaders: Ask questions and learn from the stories of people around you but “You need your personal values that work into that to create your unique and authentic story, as well. … I would just always remember that it’s always a learning experience.” [34:49] Closing quote: Remember, “A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears.” —   Quotable Quotes “When I was young, I either chose to be a wrestler or a writer; [they’re] different types of storytelling. … I chose to be a writer but I will always appreciate what [wrestling] taught me.” “There is a tendency to say that philosophy can seem quite high-minded or academic, … where it’s not, because it is something that you live and breathe.” “Prior to the pandemic, I felt quite burnt out about a few things, but then, while discovering the subject of philosophy, it clicked, in the sense that it’s something that you can control within the Stoic aspect. … From a mental health aspect, it made a lot of sense for me.” “I would always recommend Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations, because that, to me, is a book that you don’t even need to know what philosophy is, or Stoicism is, to really get to it. In context, Marcus was literally just writing to himself 2,000 years ago.” “It’s about balance, as well. … Sometimes you do need to take that step back and just reassess.” “[To write effectively,] create an environment for yourself where you feel comfortable. … Read as much as possible, … picking ideas from things that are outside your comfort zone, … and then just distilling it down.” “It starts with authenticity. … Creating that sense that ‘This is my story,’ or “I’ve been through this.’”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Patrick Bryant is a serial entrepreneur, professional speaker, and co-founder and CEO of software product agency CODE/+/TRUST. After co-founding Go To Team, Patrick launched six multi-million-dollar companies, in media, and software. Patrick shares wisdom gained from his experience in start-ups, his origin as a journalist, what he accomplished in video, and the CODE/+/TRUST “BHAG” for powering startups around the U.S. He discusses culture, scaling, storytelling, and how the first thing for an entrepreneur to do is to start.   Key Takeaways [1:15] If you have listened to every episode of The Leadership Podcast, please contact Jan and Jim to let them know. They would love to hear it and there might be something in it for you! [2:27] Most people don’t know that Patrick owns a rolling paper company that he started after investing in a cigar company. Most people know him from software, media, and other things, like speaking. [3:40] Patrick’s always getting into unexpected situations. He just keeps showing up for work and looking for interesting things. He’s curious and asks questions. His original profession was journalism and he learned to study industries and areas of interest to him. Many times, it results in a business idea. When he sees an opportunity, he strikes it. [6:07] Patrick believes entrepreneurship is the number one change agent in the world. It is amazingly helpful to society to do something new and do it right. [7:19] There are businesses that are built to scale and others that are not. In a field, you may have grass, bushes, and a large oak tree. The large oak tree did not start as a blade of grass! It takes time to know the “species” of businesses. Patrick started the video company, Go To Team, 25 years ago. It has 16 offices around the U.S. It hit a $1 million valuation when it was 10 years old. That felt great to Patrick! [8:43] Another company that started the same week as Go To Team is Google. In 10 years, Google had been publicly traded and people were using its name as a verb! Patrick wondered what he was doing wrong. He started to study innovation scale — how to build companies and products that are built to move quickly in a big way and be sold around the world. That pushed Patrick toward software. [9:58] Scaling is different between software and service companies. A service company can go a long time with continued operation, but not a lot of growth. A software product requires investments and a certain level of sales. If the sales don’t come, it’s over. The money’s gone and the investors aren’t going to pour more money into the company. There is risk involved in software. [12:43] Journalism, television, and all media have changed greatly since the start of the internet. There is confusion and fragmentation. Patrick foresees us slowly getting back to moderation and looking for experts and gatekeepers we can trust to provide us with the content we want in the way we want it. We don’t yet have the new Walter Cronkite or Tom Brokaw. [15:39] Patrick’s company, CODE/+/TRUST, sells code and trust. They help people start software companies. Their “BHAG” is to power 500 software startups in every state in the U.S. and be an official software development firm for entrepreneurs. They want to connect with good ideas, spend a lot of time on them, grow them, feel good about what they produce, and help entrepreneurs make money. [18:41] First and foremost, get one thing right. You can have multiple ways to attack a problem but you can only have one mission. The mission and values cannot change. [19:15] Patrick is working on a TEDx speech for March on the schizophrenic nature of advice to entrepreneurs. For instance, Winston Churchill’s message of never giving up contrasts with the advice to fail fast. All leaders need to understand this: mission and values do not move. We are not giving up on our mission. Tactics and goals that don’t get us there need to be stopped. [21:51] Patrick’s big “Aha” moment is that not all advice is equal. Advice from your Grandma on how to live a good life might be great, but her advice on how to run your business might not be great. Where does the advice come from? How does it work with your core values? [23:14] Advice can be great for one individual that’s not great for the next one. Patrick is a value investor. He likes to buy stocks that are low, for the long term. That’s what he reads about. Blogs about day trade opportunities are not useful advice for him. Patrick says that if every CEO learned the right way to take advice, they would be the last 10% of “amazing.” It’s one of the hardest things. [25:34] Patrick separates User Experience from Customer Experience or navigating the software from working the sales funnel. Patrick focuses on providing customers with what they need, not what they want. Henry Ford said that if he asked his customers what they wanted, they would have said, “a faster horse.” We have to have the view that we know some things about where the customer wants to go. [27:05] Patrick’s business partner, CTO at CODE/+/TRUST, does software design. He’s opinionated and will stand his ground in a positive way with customers because he believes he knows where the customer is trying to go. Designers must come to the discussion with views on what they believe for the customer. Patrick shares the surprising results of a Lay’s Potato Chip survey and taste test. [28:59] The Lay’s experience illustrates the way that we have to come to the process, which is customer first, but educated on how to make it as simple and clean and smooth an experience for them as possible, almost regardless of what they think. [30:38] Event.gives is a company of Patrick’s in the non-profit space. Attendees fill out their profiles and can then move from event to event without re-entering their data. Nonprofits argued that it is their data, but Patrick points out that individuals own their data, and they are the ones with the right to release it to the non-profit. Always go back to the individual and what their rights and choices are. [33:20] Software and media for kids have the added responsibility of providing them with reasonable opportunities for learning. Patrick always tries to start at the core mission, protecting people’s privacy, and allowing them the right to control their data. [34:53] As a journalist, Patrick learned that it’s all about telling stories. Master storytellers influence in positive ways. The slogan for Go To Team for years was Passionate Storytellers. Storytelling is a helpful skill that allows you to communicate the data that you want and to emotionally connect with people. The goal is to be ordinarily extraordinary in your storytelling so people connect with your message. [36:29] Patrick explains how to use storytelling to make products socially contagious by connecting the brand to the customer’s lifestyle. [37:32] Do not put your story in an email! How you tell your story depends on who the audience is. Patrick has run a video company for 25 years. He recommends using video to tell your story. It connects to people in a much more important way than the written word. Engaging with people in person and telling your story on stage is incredibly emotional and powerful. Connect with people in person. [39:30] Making people laugh and tugging at their heartstrings brings them along with the story. Use emotion to motivate people, educate them, and make them get excited. [41:59] Patrick refers to himself as a made entrepreneur. He doesn’t have to go to work tomorrow and his basic life needs will be taken care of. Like many of his peers and friends, Patrick enjoys the fight. He enjoys being in the company. He enjoys starting new things. He enjoys the idea stage and helping others and finding connections with the product-market fit. He keeps coming back for that super joy. [42:55] When a company gets to have between 10 and 20 employees and people start asking Patrick about policies, that’s his sign to go and start a new company. He doesn’t want to write policies and procedures around when you get off of work and what days are holidays. He doesn’t think that way. Starting another company re-energizes him to go attack the next idea. [43:51] As Patrick grows a company, and adds people, he’s thrilled by it. He loves it. The mission still stands and the values are great. He can’t wait to see the team execute on the goal. But it’s no longer energizing for him. Starting the rollercoaster over is what he loves. [45:27] Patrick’s closing thoughts, to anyone in a transition stage, just get started. Look for something that you can develop expertise in. What one thing can you do to sell that expertise and move forward an idea in that particular industry, right now, today? “That’s my core advice, just get started.” [47:59] Closing quote: Remember, “Trust is the glue of life. It’s the most essential ingredient in effective communication. It’s the foundational principle that holds all relationships.” — Steven Covey   Quotable Quotes “Well, I don’t know how you could follow my path. I had the interesting time of being on the Mall two years ago, here in Washington D.C., where I am today, for January 6. I think of myself as a little bit of a Forrest Gump. I don’t know how I get into some of these situations!” “I’m just curious. I ask people questions. As a journalist for many years of my life, … I just learned to study and get my head around industries and areas of interest of mine. And many times, that results in a business idea. And when I see opportunity, I strike it.” “Just start something, just talk to someone, just learn what someone needs. … I just don’t understand why entrepreneurs … can’t just take an opportunity and run with it. … So that’s my number one piece of advice … find something you’re interested in and get started.” “I believe entrepreneurship is the number one change agent in the world. I say it on stages around the United States. I just believe that as entrepreneur

Jay Goldman is a New York Times best-selling author of “The Decoded Company.” He is also the CEO and Co-founder of Sensei Labs - focused on technology, design, and the art of leadership. The conversation in this episode covers decision-making, connections, the six values of Sensei culture, and putting customers first. Jay urges leaders to have regular conversations with employees and use data to understand them better. Jay considers empathy to be the most important trait of a leader and he elaborates on its importance.   Key Takeaways [2:34] Jay has a 13-year-old daughter and a 12-year-old son. For Jay, parenting and leadership are very close; he uses some of the same principles with his children and in his one-on-one work discussions. [3:39] The book, The Decoded Company, was published in 2014. In the years since then, the world has changed a lot. Much of the book is still relevant, but in hindsight, Jay says they should have put more emphasis on culture. It should be a headline item. That has become more true as Jay continues to grow Sensei Labs, which was spun out of Klick to capitalize on the technology they talk about in the book. [5:34] Jay compares a company’s culture to a garden. The leader makes sure the garden gets enough sunlight, water, and nutrients, weeds the garden and protects it from pests. Leaders can’t directly make the garden grow. They can create all the right conditions for it to grow. If you want certain behaviors, create an environment that encourages those behaviors. It’s dangerous to try to fix people. [8:16] There are more small decisions than big decisions. Your physical space in an office has a big impact on culture. It’s hard to radically change your office space. Day-to-day moments can have just as big an impact. There are many times more of them than there are of the big decisions. Big decisions need to be followed up with lots of small decisions. [10:52] When COVID-19 hit, Sensei Labs was still within the offices of their parent company, Klick. Klick allowed them to stop paying rent, which was very helpful for a small business. In the summer of 2021, as COVID-19 was letting up, Sensei Labs discussed as a team if they needed to take an office. The Toronto group was missing the moments of connectivity, collaboration, and having lunch together. [12:13] After funding, Sensei Labs had almost doubled in size. International associates had never worked in an office together but they wanted the connection shared by the Toronto group. Sensei Group built an office with collaboration rooms but no private offices, desks for everyone there on a day, and multi-use spaces for large meetings and holiday parties. They are not mandating people back to the office. [15:04] Sensei Labs doesn’t say “remote” for people outside the office. Teams pick a day to come in together. They use Teams calls for those who cannot attend that day. They also use Teams calls on cross-team meetings or customer meetings. All meeting rooms are set up for Teams, with good microphones, audio, cameras, and video. Sensei Labs is all hybrid, rather than divided into tiers. [16:21] All “hoteling” desks have a proper monitor and Logitech webcam. There is an events space with a screen that rolls down from the ceiling, a webcam, a projector, and an audio system, so people not present can have the full experience of partaking in the event. There are multiple presenters, some in the building, and some participating by video. All these things help integrate the teams. [17:30] All of that said, you can’t replace the in-person experience, or going out for a coffee or lunch together. Jay loves to see a cross-functional group who have carried in lunch and are eating together. Those are collisions, as Steve Jobs called them, where you get an exchange of ideas and connections between different teams that wouldn’t otherwise form. Those are hard to recreate on Teams or Slack. [18:50] At Sensei Labs, there is a big emphasis on helping each other in a culture where that’s rewarded and recognized. The founders were intentional when they carved Sensei Labs out of Klick to build a culture that was unique to Sensei Labs, built around Enterprise SaaS, customers, and partners. [20:28] As they started, they came up with six values that represent Sensei culture: being Selfless, being Empathetic, being Nimble, being Skilled, being Entrepreneurial, and having Integrity. They built everything they do on the people side of the business around those Sensei values. They have a matrix of every role in the organization with the values, and observable behaviors expected from each role. [21:23] The matrix also shows how to get promoted in terms of what you should be thinking about in observable behaviors for each of the Sensei values for any role. When Sensei Labs does promotions, they evaluate on the Sensei values. The Sensei values are part of their open recognition channel in Teams. Everyone can post recognitions of others and tag them with Sensei values. It’s all intentional. [22:32] Over the last year, Sensei Labs has strongly emphasized CARE requests. Sensei President Benji Nadler came up with the acronym CARE, for Customers Are Really Everything, to reorient everyone’s thinking about customer requests to make them the highest priority. [24:08] An organization that does not give its people regular feedback about results is doing its people a disservice and will not get the results that it wants. In The Decoded Company, there is the Rule of Five Degrees. If you take a boat across a lake, and you’re five degrees off course at the start, it’s an easy correction then. But five degrees off course on the other side of the lake could be miles out of the way. [25:05] If an organization gives performance reviews annually, it’s already crossed the lake. Regular five-degree course corrections throughout the year could prevent an employee from being miles off course at the performance review. Regular feedback corrects behaviors and bridges the gap between behaviors. [26:18] As a privately-held company, Sensei Labs is free to make long-term decisions. Jay picks values even over performance because, in the end, that will have the biggest impact on the business. Staying true to those values will affect whom they hire. [28:14] Sensei Labs operates as a separate organization from Klick and the Sensei teams do not work on Klick’s projects. Sensei is proudly part of the Klick group of companies but there is no need for a tight alignment between the two. There is an overlap in how the two companies express and define their values. Klick has a pyramid of cultural values with the bottom level being their foundational values. [29:00] Jay describes how the layers of the Klick value pyramid match the key inflection points of career advancement. Sensei used the best parts of the Klick values in developing the Sensei Labs values acronym. Sensei looks at the key inflection points of the first time an individual contributor becomes a leader, and the first time a leader becomes a leader of leaders. Those points require different thinking. [30:54] Leadership has a science component. The science of leadership goes back to Taylorism measuring productivity with a stopwatch and optimizing the Ford assembly lines. There’s the possible Hawthorne effect of performance rising because it is measured. The science is how you use the data within an organization to optimize it for talent, centricity, and engagement, the premise of Decoded. [31:48] Jay explains how leadership is an art, requiring a high degree of empathy. You need to be able to understand the individual members of your team and what drives them. Jay values empathy as the most important trait of leadership. Empathy requires engagement, conversations, and knowing each other. It requires some vulnerable moments that establish psychological safety between you and your team. [34:30] People learned hard skills in school and had to figure out the soft skills for themselves. It dodges the responsibility for teaching the part of leadership that is probably more impactful. Jay explores the mistake technology companies often make in promoting engineers into managerial roles with no EQ or managerial skills. That mistake removes a skilled individual contributor and installs an ineffectual leader. [36:54] Instead, create a pathway that allows skilled engineers to remain in their craft but to become leaders, take on more responsibility, and make more money. Both Sensei Labs and Klick have parallel tracks for people leadership and craft leadership. As individuals advance, their time is leveraged so that an hour of their time creates more than an hour of value for the organization. [39:54] The use of Big Data has changed immensely since Decoded was published. The principle is the same, but if they wrote the book today, their take would be very different. Data is more prevalent in business today. [40:20] Most businesses today spend huge amounts on data to understand their customers. They do not use any of the same resources to understand their people. Jay argues that you will have a higher leverage effect by engaging in your team, creating a virtuous cycle of having the best talent on your teams, more customer happiness, more revenue, and hiring even more skilled team members. [42:03] There is a difference between ambient data and self-reported data. Self-reported data is always biased. Teams constantly use tools and that creates a digital body language about what they are working on and who they’re connected with and other factors. That data is available through analysis. Jay calls this data a sixth sense. Have guidelines about using the data, so it’s not uncomfortable. [43:35] There has been good research on 16 indicators that somebody may be thinking about quitting their job. If you could look across those 16 relative attributes of an employee, “Jim”, you could see changes that indicate that something has changed in ”Jim’s” life. Measuring a ba

Jeremy Foster is the Chief Financial Officer of Austin-based Talroo.com, the data-driven job and hiring advertising platform that helps businesses reach the candidates they need to build their essential workforce. Jeremy shares insights into the key indicators of business valuation: 1) The necessity of leaders knowing the language of finance; and 2) The differences between startups, growth companies, and mature companies. He covers why alignment of the stakeholders is important for a company’s successful scaling, and when to use blitzscaling, if at all. He explains analytics and shares examples from his past and present work, in an educational overview of the interplay between finance, data and decision-making.     Key Takeaways [2:14] Jeremy started in marketing and then ended up leading operations and retail banking for a 15-branch community bank in New Mexico and West Texas. His background was not in accounting or finance. That changes how Jeremy tends to approach the numbers. [2:41] Jeremy explains how he evaluates a business by looking at three numbers: the lifetime value of the customers, the customer acquisition cost, and the total addressable market. Marketing is a key component of each of those numbers. [4:36] Jeremy has worked with startups and scaling businesses. He’s seen a broad spread of financial knowledge within company leadership. Sometimes an executive team has problems because of their different levels of understanding. Do you understand GAAP and income statements? What are revenue, gross profit, and EBITDA; the basic terminology. Some executive teams don’t know these terms. [5:33] The next big question is which financial statement is the most important to look at, the cash flow or the P&L statement? It depends on whether you are a startup or an established company. There’s a transition the executive team needs to make from a stage of perpetually raising capital to a stage of starting to generate capital and focus on unit economics, and understanding sound investments. [7:51] Super-mature businesses are balance-sheet-driven. These are companies like banks, oil, and gas, that have balance sheet sensitivities they need to pay attention to. [8:06] Get an executive team all on the same page with a basic background in finances and then focus that alignment in education first on whichever financial statement is the most important to the business, according to what stage your business is in. [9:27] There’s an element of leadership that’s getting people to follow you and there’s an element of knowing what the right direction to go is. The math of business is useful in helping you figure out what the right direction is. [9:45] The first step in identifying the right direction can be self-study. Sometimes it’s about understanding the terminology. Sometimes, it’s about looking at your business and thinking about what’s most important for your business. The easiest way to do that is to rely on the ability to identify a bottleneck. What’s the most immediate limitation on the business? Is it sales, product, or capital? [10:58] The first thing is to recognize the most immediate pain point in your business. Decompose it. Understand what the most important numbers are in that pain point. You don’t have to understand all the numbers in the business at once. You can learn over time. Start by figuring out what’s most important. [11:59] Jeremy explains scaling and growth. A scaling business differs from a startup in that as the business gets bigger, it juggles an increasing number of variables. Part of becoming a scaling business is looking in advance. If you want 100 new customers how much staff do you need to onboard new and maintain existing customers? Look for limitations and plan to remove them before you hit them. [14:06] Past guest Margaret Heffernan identified planning for limitations as adaptability. Jeremy notes that the amount of flexibility you have is contingent upon your availability of capital. Blitzscaling has its drawbacks. If you hire too much staff, then when the capital is drained, you will have massive layoffs and you may lay off the wrong people if you don’t know the metrics. That puts you in a death cycle. [15:44] Growth can be self-financed or it can come at the cost of additional capital. Blitzscaling is valid in winner-take-all markets. An example of this is Netflix. Their model is streaming video, so they had to grab as many customers as possible before others captured the market. They had to raise capital through growth and figure out how to make customers sticky. They enabled streaming through Xbox. [16:54] Often, blitzscaling is not the right approach, especially if you raise too much capital at too low of a valuation, which may hurt your investors. Prove profitability first and then raise capital at a higher multiple a little bit later. [18:56] Marketing analytics is used by companies like Facebook to choose what ad to show. Talroo uses analytics to identify the right job candidates for employers that are looking to hire essential workers. The analytics calculate the likelihoods that a job seeker will: apply for a job, be a good fit for the job, and be selected by the employer. With the right characteristics, you can start to reach the right people. [19:37] There’s a space for analytics in most businesses. With analytics, you will gain a level of additional insight into what your team needs, what your customers need, and what your shareholders need. Understanding where those numbers that matter to you are is where analytics starts. Jeremy gives an example of how his former employer, Kasasa, used analytics and rewards to drive consumer behavior. [22:45] Analytics work best if you know what factors drive your business. It can also help you figure out specifics of what drives your business. Jeremy cites the problems with having too many dashboards or too few dashboards and the benefits of having an appropriate number of dashboards. Analytics will tell you where to go next if you pay attention, but you have to be thoughtful about what you’re building. [26:28] When you talk about pricing, ask yourself if you are reaching the combination of the right targets that are willing and able to pay that price and if that is price sufficient for you to make money after you’ve acquired those customers. And are there enough of them to grow the business well? Jeremy shares some facts about the cost of acquiring customers, their lifetime value, and marketing cycles. [28:20] A business is considered investable or backable by private equity or venture capital if it is going to make three times as much as it cost to pick up that customer. … What sometimes VCs and PE groups don’t pay attention to is how fast that cycles. Having multiple cycles in a year multiplies the profit. [29:14] More about pricing: Sometimes getting extra traction on the sales front isn’t about charging less, sometimes you can deliver more value. Sometimes all you have to do is take risk away. Jeremy relates a Kasasa case study. When you de-risk a transaction, sales friction goes away. [33:16] As companies scale, they have to broaden their understanding of their stakeholders. What do the customers want? How do you deliver value? It is easier to work with private equity and venture capital if they’ve seen the metrics. To be a partner, they can’t operate blindly; they need transparency. If you skip wage increases, consider the customer churn that will follow as employees leave. [35:53] Jeremy shares some aspects of conversations that were held at Kasasa, post-acquisition. They were discussing how to balance their white-label segment against their branded segment. They needed to understand the concerns of customers moving from one to the other as they navigated early conversations with the private equity group. [37:00] The PE group was focused on long-term growth. They were the right partners. It’s important to have the right partners with the same objectives as the company leadership and previous owners who are investing. You want that alignment. If the idea is revenue growth at any cost, everybody better agree on that. If the alignment is to grow profitability x% year over year, everybody needs to be aligned. [39:01] Talroo sees a very high level of demand for essential workers. That’s a strong vertical for Talroo. Jeremy doesn’t foresee a full-fledged labor recession. There is softening in tech sectors in terms of need for workers, which Jeremy attributes to earlier overhiring of workers by a lot of large businesses. Most of the pressures in the labor economy are still present. There are a lot of people retiring or recently retired. [40:19] One of the biggest problems the U.S. faces over the next decade is a shortage of labor because we’ve been below our replacement rate. We don’t have enough workers. It’s important to retain your talent, or partner with Talroo to find new talent! One of the places where analytics gets overlooked a lot is in understanding who your best performers are. Which people is it most important that you retain? [41:41] It’s still going to be important to lead well the people that you have. [42:34] Jeremy has been a key part of three major restructurings in the last 13 years. It’s awful for everybody involved and it should be awful. If it’s not awful, something’s wrong with your culture. Restructuring should be a last resort. You can sometimes avoid them by staffing the right people in the right places. Sometimes you get it wrong. [43:45] Part of leading is looking at the metrics to know when to make those decisions. Part of leading is looking at people first when you’re making those decisions so that you’re making the right choices. Part of leading is knowing that your team members are vital, too. You have to do what you can to provide a soft landing for the people you have to lose. Provide as much transparency as you can upfront. [46:34] Jeremy’s last message for listeners: “People look at numbers and peop

Mike Evans is the Founder of GrubHub, and the author of “Hangry: A Startup Journey.” Mike founded GrubHub in his spare bedroom and grew it into a multi-billion dollar food delivery business that’s a household name. After leaving GrubHub, he founded Fixer.com, an on-demand handyperson service focused on social impact, and providing full-time work for well-trained tradespeople. Mike shares what he learned from raising a startup to IPO, biking across America, and writing “Hangry.” He believes it is necessary to create a business not just to make a profit, but to be powerful levers for social change.     Key Takeaways [2:27] Mike loves cycling and getting around places by bike, but not quickly. After the GrubHub experience, he rode his bike across the country. Later, Mike and his wife rode across Austria. They hope to ride across another country soon with their daughter. Mike tells what he likes about electric bikes. [4:41] As GrubHub grew from a few employees to 2,500 employees over 12 years, there were two things that increased his anxiety and made it challenging to live. [5:14] The first challenge was the fact that there are a lot of competing interests: shareholders, employees, diners, and restaurants and it was hard to balance them all. There’s no scenario where everybody wins 100%. There are tradeoffs. It was a tightrope walk to do. Mike started seeing the company making different choices as it grew beyond him. That was challenging to see. [6:09] The second challenge was hiring. As a business leader, you either hire your friends, or the people you hire become your friends. Sometimes you have to make decisions that are not the best outcomes for your employee-friends. When you have to let people go that you like, you cannot recover those friendships. They’re gone. You can’t fire somebody and then go hang out with them. [6:37] It should be hard to fire someone. You can’t be good at firing people and be a good leader. It should never get easier. You should care a lot about the people you work with. The competing interests, and having to fire friends took a toll on Mike over the course of a decade. [7:53] Contentment is fleeting, especially for entrepreneurs who start from a place where “something is broken in the world and I’m really annoyed by it.” Mike doesn’t think contentment was ever in the cards for him. An entrepreneur has to see the world with an expectation that it could be better than it currently is, which is not a good recipe for contentment. [9:45] Mike believes it’s important to have a personal definition of success that other people or factors don’t define. Other people won’t necessarily agree with it. Mike tells how he defined success all the way up through GrubHub’s IPO. Other people told him the IPO was his success, but that wasn’t Mike’s definition. Your definition of success gives you a North Star for one aspect of your life, business. [11:11] You also need personal definitions of success for your relationships, family, faith community, and civic community. Then you need to do the hard step of making tradeoffs between them. Work/life balance is elusive because it’s impossible to achieve. You have to make tradeoffs. The best you can do is say “I have a clear-eyed picture of what I want from a family perspective,” and make choices explicitly. [12:03] If you don’t choose explicitly, things happen to you instead of you making choices. That’s what causes imbalance, frustration, anger, and disappointment. Your definitions of success change during your journey. As you approach your goals, the goalposts move. It’s a destination and a journey. It’s not one or the other. As we do hard things, we change, and therefore our goals change. [12:54] Sometimes we fail. If you’re not going to be able to accomplish a goal, continuing to have it as a goal is only an exercise in frustration. Be able to say “This isn’t working; I’m going to go try doing something else.” Whether you succeed or fail, your goals change. Success is a larger concept; it’s the accumulation of goals over decades. [13:54] Mike compares how he feels about goals today with what he might have felt at age 24. One of the themes in his book is Think Bigger. Don’t set your goals low. When Mike launched GrubHub, he just wanted to pay off his student debt. He missed the opportunity to embed the value of “Do right by restaurants, no matter what,” in the DNA of the company. At 24, he only wanted to make money. [14:37] If Mike had struggled at age 24 with the decision about doing right by the restaurants, there might have been a better outcome over the decades. [16:17] Starting GrubHub and taking it through the IPO involved thousands of decisions of Mike letting go. On Day 1, Mike owned 100% of GrubHub with 100% of the responsibility for it. On the day Mike kicked off on his bike ride across the country, he had 0% of the responsibility. He had a few shares in GrubHub for six more months. His hack was to give up first the thing he hated most — scanning menus! [18:14] Mike’s first hire, a graphic designer to scan menus, went on to create the brand which ended up in two Super Bowl ads. He started scanning menus but had an opportunity from being in a high-growth startup. He ended up having to delegate. Once you hire your first employee, you get your first investor. Lean in on that and enjoy it! [19:31] Accepting reality is a paradox for an entrepreneur. You have to have enough arrogance to say “The world is broken, it needs to be fixed, and I’m the only person who can do it,” and you have to have the humility to listen to your customers and employees about what you’re doing right and wrong, and how to adjust. Arrogance and humility do not “play nice” together. Mike doesn’t always get it right. [20:28] If you put a document in front of five people, they’re all going to start editing it. Don’t put a press release in front of anybody but the people who have the responsibility of doing the press release. One way to keep micromanagement from happening, to allow people to delegate, is don’t put the work product in front of them before it’s done. Don’t give people editing access. [20:54] Not micromanaging starts with not being in there to edit things. Trust people to do their work. Tactical things like that help you to let go of the small decisions. [21:33] Mike’s book has a humble tone, but the exclamation point at the end is, “I had a fricking IPO, folks!” Mike captures in the book the paradox of arrogance and humility needed to run a startup well. [23:18] Mike had done week-long backpacking trips and liked being out in nature. On one of those trips with his wife, he went to Grand Tetons National Park and camped. He saw people riding in on bikes and setting up tents. It was the TransAmerican Trail cross-country bike tour going through the park. Mike thought biking and carrying a pack on a rack was a way better idea than hiking with a backpack! [24:14] The bike tour sounded like a very accessible adventure. It was accessible because he did it in 90 fifty-mile bike rides, not one 4,500-mile bike ride. His first day was just 25 miles. One thing Mike learned is that it starts with the first mile. The best training for Week Two is Week One. The best training for Week One is to go slow. Don’t try to eat up the miles in your first week. [24:54] Anyone physically able can ride 10 miles on a bike. You can do that and you can take lunch and you can do that again. And that can be your whole first day. You build up until you’re riding 100 miles in a day. The decision for Mike was just following something he was interested in doing. He quit his job to ride his bike across the country. It was a very clear decision for his life. [26:18] Mike kept a journal of his bike ride, on MikeEvans.com. He used those notes in Hangry to write about his bike trip. The trip reinforced something for Mike: the idea that you don’t do it all at once. When he looks back, yes he did a 4,500-mile bike ride. Day to day, he woke up every morning and made the decision to start pedaling a mile. [26:51] Long-haul hikers say, “Don’t quit at the end of a long day. Wait till the morning, when you’re fresh.” A lot of people feel like quitting when they’re tired. When you wake up in the morning you see you can do another day. That was true for Mike in business, as well. He kept at it because he had a bigger mission he was trying to accomplish. [28:14] Mike’s purposes for his bike trip were to reflect on what he had accomplished, how he did it, and how he felt about it, and to consider what he was going to do next. That led to the creation of Fixer, the on-demand handyperson business. The handypersons are full-time employees, trained from scratch. He wanted to create a business with social benefits built-in: great employment with a path into the trades. [29:11] Mike’s first decision for the bike trip was to buy a recumbent bike because he wanted to look at the horizon instead of the ground. He already had a tent. He rented a van and drove it down to Virginia Beach. One thing that helped is that the Adventure Cycling Association publishes TransAmerica Trail bike route maps so he ordered a set of maps and joined their online community to talk about the ride. [31:51] Starting a business is ugly and hard. It’s filled with self-doubt and recriminations. To succeed, you have to make tough choices and a lot of people judge you for those choices. Mike also judges GrubHub and where it went after he left from the IPO and how it became a poster child for the gig economy and not great for restaurants. That is frustrating to Mike. [32:21] It felt to Mike that it was important to tell the whole story and how businesses are huge levers for social change, whether you want them to be or not. When Mike was intentional about that at GrubHub, it was beneficial for restaurants. When that intentionality left the business, it was not as good for restaurants. [32:40] Mike’s goal with Hangry is to show the idea of changing the wo

Mano Watsa is the President and Owner of PGC Basketball, the largest educational basketball camp in the world. PGC Basketball has taught over 125,000 players and coaches how to be leaders on and off the court. Mano brings his sports and business experiences to the podcast with stories and advice on thinking like a coach, communicating, and making a difference in people’s lives. Listen to learn how to focus on the thing you can do best.    “Part of the beauty of the game is your individual contributions combined with working together as a team … where five players become like a fist, not five individual fingers … and they play together as one.”  - Mano Watsa     Key Takeaways [2:51] Mano’s journey has been a joy, but anytime you’re pursuing a vision, there are all sorts of challenges along the way, as well as opportunities. It’s often the challenges that don’t surface publicly. Mano has never seen a successful team or individual that has not had to overcome adversity, and he is no different. [4:20] PGC Basketball's founder, Dick DeVenzio, who played college basketball at Duke University and went on to play and teach the game across the world, created the Point Guard College with the point guard in mind. The point guard has to be the coach on the floor. They have to be able to run the show for their team and get their team to work together and play together. They have to “think the game.” [5:01] PGC teaches players to be the smartest player on the floor by equipping them with how to think like a coach, how to make good decisions that lead to winning basketball, and how to lead their team. Jan and Jim recall guest Sam Walker’s book, The Captain Class, on how the greatest sports teams in history have one thing in common, captains who were the coach on the floor. [6:13] Mano says PGC teaches players not only how to lead by example but to be effective communicators, inspire their teammates, hold teammates accountable, challenge them, and raise the standard for their teammates. Anyone leading a company, team, or family, is the point guard for that company, team, or family. [8:23] Jeremy Lin came to the NY Knicks and started the Linsanity era. Overnight Jeremy Lin was on the cover of nearly every magazine and was a household name as the first Asian-American in the NBA. Suddenly he’s scoring 38 points against Kobe Bryant at Madison Square Garden. He had a successful 10-year NBA career. [9:08] Toward the end of Jeremy Lin’s NBA career, Mano had the privilege and opportunity to support him in the realm of mindset and his approach. Mano has been inspired by Jeremy Lin’s story, his passion, and his commitment to the game, giving back to the game and making a difference in the world. Jeremy Lin is now playing professionally in China. [10:18] John Wooden won 10 national championships at UCLA and was named Coach of the Century. John Wooden epitomized what it means to be a coach and make a difference in the lives of young players. Mano and his business partner at the time, Dena Evans, had the privilege once of spending a remarkable morning with Coach Wooden. They immediately wrote down all they had learned from him. [12:30] Jason Sudeikis revealed that having John Wooden’s Pyramid of Success on the wall of Ted Lasso’s office is purposeful. [13:30] Five players that work together can be more effective than five talented individuals who don’t work together. Individual performers can significantly influence the outcome of the game, but they also depend on the performance of their teammates to determine the outcome of the game. It’s a beautiful thing to see players willing to pass up a good shot for themselves for a great shot for a teammate. [15:38] Michael Jordan was the best player in the world. His teammates said they found it difficult to play with him because his standards were so high. He had competitive greatness. He was at his best when it was needed the most. It’s helpful on a team to have a player that drives everyone toward winning. You need others who complement that person’s nature to make sure everyone gets along. [19:30] Mano helped the Mully Children’s Family organization in Kenya build a sports gymnasium. There are over 2,000 children under their care. Mano has been over there with them multiple times and loves their work. When he sees where these kids have come from and their optimism, even with what they lack, it gives Mano a perspective of gratitude and wanting to make a difference in the lives of others. [21:05] Denny Crum, former coach of the University of Louisville, was honored recently. One of his players stated that they never saw him get upset. He never yelled at his players. They called him Cool Hand Luke. He was always encouraging and supportive. He was a teacher to his team. [22:01] PGC founder Dick DeVenzio taught to use a six-to-one ratio of encouragement to constructive criticism. It’s a lofty standard. As a coach or leader, it’s so easy to see where others may be falling short but people thrive off encouragement. Connect with team members before correcting them. Always make deposits before you make withdrawals. As leaders and parents, think about the “bank account.” [24:15] Great coaches don’t try to make everything a priority. If you try to make everything a priority, nothing is a priority. You can’t be great at everything, on the court or in business. But you can be great and world-class in something. You have to let some things go and focus on others. [25:02] Great coaches don’t single players out unnecessarily. This goes for leaders and parents, too. Praise publicly and criticize privately. Good coaches and business leaders do a good job of not embarrassing and humiliating their people. They praise publicly and if they have to give criticism, they do so quietly and privately. [25:43] Great coaches don’t hold back when they’re wrong. They’re willing to admit mistakes. That takes humility and vulnerability, in practice and games. Get beyond your ego. Be willing to admit you don’t have it all together. [26:56] At PGC, they follow a commitment-based culture. Part of Mano’s commitment statement is that he’s a joyful work in progress. Accepting himself as a joyful work in progress allows Mano to admit mistakes and admit that he will always be a work in progress. [27:38] Past guest, Michael Bungay Stanier, told of a Legos bridge-building problem. Most people added pieces to solve the problem but the most expedient solution was to remove a piece. What’s on your plate? What are you going to take off your plate? Mano notes that when we say “yes” to something, we say “no” to every other alternative. That helps him to be discerning about what he says “Yes” to. [29:18] Mano decided recently that if it’s not a “Hell, yeah!” it’s a “No.” One of the mistakes Mano made in the early years of growing PGC was wanting to pursue every opportunity. In attempting to pursue every opportunity, they didn’t maximize any given opportunity. Mano learned as he grew as a leader to stop good things to focus on a great thing. [31:54] As coaches or business leaders, you can’t give all the encouragement that your players or staff need. To fill the gap, PGC introduced celebrations. Every staff meeting, no matter how many meetings are in a day, starts with 60 to 90 seconds of gratitude. It’s an opportunity for somebody to acknowledge a thing or project that the team or an individual has done well. People encourage each other. [34:50] Mano frequently tells his staff, “If you’re winning at work but losing at home, you’re losing.” Mano and PGC care about the staff as human beings and want them to win at home. If someone is not winning at home, their work will be compromised because everything bleeds over. When you’re at home, shut off work, slow down, and be present with family. [36:04] After reading In Praise of Slowness, Mano stopped college coaching to focus on PGC. He wanted to be present for his family. Another decision he made with his family was to limit the participation of their children in sports and activities. Their highest value was in spending dinner time together as a family and playing together. They prioritized family time over competitive sports. [39:02] Mano’s listener challenge: As business leaders, we must ensure that we’re doing everything possible to support our employees and teams. One of the ways we can do that is by helping to ensure that they’re able to bring their best possible selves to work each day. [39:24] For employees to bring the best version of themselves, they need to feel cared for, supported, and encouraged, and they need to be given space because if we’re just driving them hard all the time, we’re going to wear them down, especially in this world where many people just don’t feel settled. We can create a good environment while pursuing goals and lofty objectives and still helping our people. [41:21] Closing quote: Remember, “Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.” — John Wooden   Quotable Quotes “I’ve never come across a winning team, or anyone who’s been highly successful in anything,  that hasn’t had to overcome significant adversity. And I’m certainly no different than that, in terms of adversities.” — Mano “We like to think that a point guard isn’t just a position on a basketball court. Somebody leading a company is the point guard of their team. A quarterback is the point guard of their football team. … If you’re leading a family, you are the point guard of your family.” — Mano “The point guard has to be able to influence behavior in order to get desired outcomes. They have to be able to lead and communicate effectively.” — Mano “The beauty of the game [of basketball] is that five players who work together can be more effective and more successful than five talented individuals who don’t work together.” — Mano “In basketball, it’s a small enough team that you can significantly impact the outcome of the game by your individual performance but you can’t entirely im