The Meaning Code

Dr. Iain McGilchrist and Dr. Chris E W Green join The Meaning Code to speak of the way back from our current wandering in the wilderness. Introductions to the two follow the timestamps, which regrettably only cover the first hour. If anyone wants to add the second hour, go for it. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:00 Reflections on Spirituality and Hope 01:25 Iain McGilchrist reads poem by Hermes Trismegistus 06:37 The impact of Reductionism on Art and Experience 13:16 The interplay of Death, Life and Storytelling 19:01 The danger of grasping mode in human experience 31:40 The nature of understanding and intelligence 36:09 The temptation to turn resistances into tools for personal gain 40:30 The importance of making space for growth 45:00 Opposites and Dark Sides - George MacDonald 49:04 The importance of acknowledging darkness for health and society 52:50 Rituals and Henri de Lubac 56:00 Sentimentality is cruelty Iain McGilchrist is a former Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, an associate Fellow of Green Templeton College, Oxford, a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a Consultant Emeritus of the Bethlem and Maudsley Hospital, London, a former research Fellow in Neuroimaging at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, Baltimore, and a former Fellow of the Institute of Advanced Studies in Stellenbosch. His books include Against Criticism (Faber), The Master and his Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World (Yale UP), The Divided Brain and the Search for Meaning; Why Are We So Unhappy? (Yale UP), and Ways of Attending (Routledge). Chris E W Green Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University (Lakeland, FL) and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, popular and scholarly, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology (Baylor University Press), the first volume of a forthcoming trilogy.

Grey Hamilton, a 28 year old husband and father, joins Karen to discuss relationships, education and the impact of societal changes on family and community dynamics.

Cassidy joins the Meaning Code to talk about the excitement around the upcoming Breakwater Festival in Culemborg, The Netherlands from November 7-9, 2025She also fills us in on past conferences, and what to expect at this one.For more information:Breakwater Festival Culemborg, The Netherlands: November 7-9 2025Crowdfunding/Pre-sale ticket link: https://igg.me/at/BackingBreakwaterBreakwater Email: contact.breakwater@gmail.com

Rick Walker, Entrepreneur, Podcast Host and Author joins The Meaning Code to discuss his new book, 9 Steps to Build a Life of Meaning, (endorsed by both John Vervaeke and Paul VanderKlay) which tells the hard fought lessons he has learned through trauma, loss and building multiple businesses while doing his best as a husband and father. Book Link: https://a.co/d/6fjDRXr Rick Walker website: https://rickwalker.com Rick Walker Podcast, also available on pod bean, Spotify and YouTube https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rick-walker-podcast/id1667818152

Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University (Lakeland, FL), Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony (CEEC), and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. (cewgreen.com) Discussion topics: Theological Concepts of Creation and Christology Dynamics of Optimization and Context in Natural Selection Metaphors in Music and Existence Creation, Causation, and Beauty Relationship between over-identification and under-identification Causation and Recognition in Conversations Biology and Regeneration Order, Chaos, and Harmonics The integration of chaos and order in the context of existence.
Dynamics of Creativity and Order in Relationships Exploring Play, Wisdom, and Creativity Anticipation is a key element that makes play enjoyable The role of play and creativity in understanding theological concepts. The significance of anticipation versus prediction in theological discussions.

Intersection of AI, Language, and Psychology The hardware and software distinction in language processing. Programming languages build layers of abstraction that relate to human cognition. The Creative Process: Hardware vs. Software Creative process in painting, compared to coding, highlighting the need to transform abstract ideas into tangible forms. This iterative process is similar to scientific investigation and everyday decision-making. The Hardware-Software Distinction in Perception Parallels between cognitive processing and art therapy. Individuals can become stuck in cognitive patterns and the need for therapy to help them navigate different cognitive zones. James Gibson's theories on perception, highlighting the direct relationship between reality and our perception of it. The relationship between art processes and cognitive functions. The relationship between AI and human experience, emphasizing that AI operates on a condensed version of human knowledge. AI lacks the direct, ecological experiences that humans have not only because of their embodiment but because of their life experiences. The Linguistic System and Its Underlying Structure Karen elaborates on the relationship between language and a foundational scaffold of reality, suggesting that both are governed by dynamic principles that allow for complexity and meaning. highlighting the limitations inherent in linguistic systems, such as the specific combinations of letters and words that can form coherent phrases and sentences. Exploring the Scaffold of Reality in Art and Harmony Reality as a dynamic net that fosters creativity, contrasting it with static boundaries. Principles such as harmony and balance play a crucial role in shaping experiences. Personal Growth Through Physical and Emotional Engagement Societal perceptions have limited personal growth, comparing it to children on a playground who don't realize their potential. Rafe Kelly's work in parkour as a means to help individuals connect with their physical abilities and emotional experiences. This engagement can lead to significant personal development and a deeper understanding of one's limits and capabilities. Measurement plays a crucial role at the Intersection of Hardware, Software, and Ecological Perception

Michael and Karen consider the theories of Elan Barenholtz, an Associate Professor of Psychology at Florida Atlantic University. His self-description: "I use behavioral and embedded computational approaches (i.e. neural networks running in robots) to study the brain and behavior with the goal of developing a broad theoretical framework of neural function." The videos that Michael and Karen were discussing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca_RbPXraDE with Curt Jaimungal, Elan Barenholtz and William Hahn positing a radical theory of human language generation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1q6Hhz0MAg with Kenneth Stanley who used to be at Open AI talking about an earlier method of AI research through Picbreeder Karen ends the episode by reading from C S Lewis' essay on Transposition focusing on the necessity of a higher.

Exploring Story Craft and the Intersection of Faith and Hollywood with Justin Wells, filmmaker of documentaries, professor teaching documentary and story craft. On X as @onejwells https://www.youtube.com/@justinsmorningcoffee Seeing Story Structure through the lens of Complexity Theory Justin elaborates on the five-act structure of storytelling, emphasizing the importance of updating a character's mental map as they navigate challenges. He connects this process to complexity theory, outlining the journey from order to chaos and back to harmony. Apparently, Sean Coyne and John Verveke are working on a book titled "Story Principia," which will delve into these concepts. The importance of mental models in understanding character development. The development of a five-act structure for storytelling. Understanding the Journey from Law to Chaos in Storytelling The transition from a procedural phase, where rules are strictly followed, to a chaotic phase in storytelling when everything goes wrong. He uses the analogy of teaching a child a game to illustrate the importance of learning and applying the rules before questioning them. Exploring Creativity Through Chaos Creativity is rooted in chaos, citing research that shows how epiphanies occur when individuals abandon conventional thinking, leading to breakthroughs. Chaos and Creativity in Storytelling Justin emphasizes the importance of chaos in the creative process, suggesting that characters in the New Testament often experience a shift in perspective that challenges their expectations. He notes that this pattern of death and resurrection is essential for learning and creativity. The Stages of Learning and Knowing Outlining four types of knowing, including propositional, procedural, perspectival and participatory knowledge, he describes the procedural stage as a time of obedience and practice, akin to boot camp, before moving into a more fluid, participatory stage where one can innovate and adapt.

Matthew Allison discusses the metaphysical and theological implications of infinity plus the influence of dualism and Gnosticism on philosophical discussions. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:30 Matthew on the Infinite 06:00 Heidegger 06:55 Wittgenstein 08:00 The significance of chiasms in biblical texts and how they reflect divine inspiration 14:00 Phenomenology 22:00 Reflections on Hebrews chapter 11, focusing on the theme of faith and the biblical figures who endured suffering without receiving God's promises. 30:00 The Nature of time and relationship 34:00 Methodological a priori and its implications 43:00 Contrasting Maximus's approach with that of Neoplatonists, pointing out that while he engaged with their ideas, he did not adopt their analytic framework. This distinction is significant for scholars studying the intersection of philosophy and religion. 46:00 Exploring Ontology and Methodology in human experience 53:00 The connections between choreography and spirituality in community 59:00 Square dance and its potential relationship to experiential dna

Karen and Haris explore Julian Barbour's theory of time and the universe, "nothing without ratios" while discussing the role of ratios in both mathematical theories and artistic expression.

Balazs Kegl, Head of AI Research for Huawei Paris, meets Annie Crawford, C S Lewis Scholar, to discover the crossovers between AI research and Lewis' concept of transposition of the higher into the lower, also looking at Michael Levin's Bowtie Theory, Chiastic Structures and Modes of Knowing. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro and overview of AI and Transposition 13:17 Exploring AI Text Generating and style adaptation 15:31 Understanding Randomness in AI Outputs 20:10 Consciousness and Communication27:04 C S Lewis' concepts of Transposition and Modes of Knowing 36:49 Creativity and Memory in relation to Info Theory 46:09 Chiastic structures and bowtie theory in life and literature 51:13 The triune pattern in creativity

Drew, with a master's in ethnomusicology and a voracious interest in all things music, joins The Meaning Code today to open up the ancient view of music as relationships, balance, proportion. Through the lens of Aristoxenus and Boethius, we explore -memory as the mother of the muses -the original meaning of Harmonia as proportion and balance -relationships between notes in a melody -principles of Melos - realign, reharmonizes body, soul, mind -dunamis (function - power & potential) Music doesn't exist at any one time but between times. Memory fixes the past and perception leads to the future. Before Plato, all knowledge was in poetry form. Music of the Spheres or Harmony of the Cosmos? Music as an apologetic

Brendan Graham Dempsey and Cory Barker help Karen to gain a greater understanding of Metamodernism. Brendan is writer, poet, farmer, and systems thinker. As Director of Sky Meadow Institute, he works on productively bridging the divide between science and spirituality. Cory has a Master of Arts in Social Science and Informatics and is working on a PhD with a research focus on applying big picture thinking to improved AGI design. He serves as President of the Archdisciplinary Research Center (Arc.voyage) If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend my first conversation with Cory Barker as background (which explores the concept of moving from discipline, to interdisciplinary, transdisciplinarity and finally to archdisciplinarity as a method of solving intractable problems.) We also cover how the world works and other interesting things:-). https://youtu.be/LwqByLmk1AU?si=LqS2kXXfo4-Qj99_ Topics covered: (If anyone wants to turn this into timestamps, go for it.) AGI, LLM's, tokenization and statistical inference Computable functions related to development psychology The natural relations of Knowledge More efficient systems that take less energy to run The brain autonomously organizes information Universal classes of human experience Dynamic skill Theory, Kurt Fischer Reflexes, sensory motor, representations skills, pairing concepts and action/words, abstraction The Universal Learning Process Adaptive Complexity Coupling of an agent to its environment (wittedness) Variation and selective retention Autopoesis and cognition Coupling between elements and the formal systems Unlike other animals, we are not perfectly fitted to our environment, but are made for space Antagonism drives adaptation. We are not endlessly pliable Our linguistic component allows us to go off into abstract space The free energy principle, maximum freedom Think beyond our environments We advance on the basis of our previous equilibriums Ted Lasso and metamodernism Critique and transcend (the pattern of culture shock, also) Universal process of automation Cause and Effect Forming a stable system with a boundary space Cascades through the interior Universal process of concretion Creates a stake through the system The optical way to process info Free energy principal A set of expectations, a model that we hope will hold up and avoid surprise We continually update our model and that will minimize the distance between our expectation and the reality Anomaly drives hierarchical complexification How space affects equilibrium Turning point Ted Lasso and space Earnestness and Sincerity in the context of irony and cynicism Bill Tolbert, Action Inquiry A stage model of managerial styles postmodernism - ironist metamodern - a sense of coherence @ what is going on Understanding how things are relating to each other Arch modernism Entropy production is creative Alicia Juarrero Maximum complexity before it becomes chaos Randomness is not high in info Chaology - a study of the hidden order inside chaos, too difficult for us to understand at this point Metamodernism, transcending the critique of postmodernism

Brantley Vosler, host of the Transposition Podcast, joins Karen to talk about C S Lewis' essay of that name, as well as Lewis' argument against Bulverism. Along the way, we dive into the symbolism of Silo! Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:00 Exploring the Concept of Transposition 09:08 The Transposition of Ideas in Music 14:26 Vertical Causation and Spirituality 20:50 Themes of Power and Weakness in Scripture 27:34 Symbolism in "Silo" and Christian Hope 37:04 Discussion on Themes of Hope and Love in Family Dynamics 44:51 Reflections on Love and Gratitude 51:03 C S Lewis' argument against Bulverism 1:00:56 Transposition and AI Insights 1:06:01 Understanding Bulverism and Its Implications 1:13:57 Reductionism as an inversion of transposition

Neal initiated a discussion on the intersection of evolutionary principles and human social phenomena, particularly in relation to organizations and art. He critiqued the dominant scientific perspective that views beauty as a byproduct of natural selection, proposing instead that beauty and design principles are independent evolutionary forces. Neal introduced a dual force model that includes a push away from vulnerability and a pull towards an instinct for quality and beauty, referencing eight principles of design to illustrate these concepts.

Karen Wong and Joy Frimpong engage in a conversation about progressivism, exploring how Joy's educational experiences contributed to her understanding of the ideology. Joy notes that while she can't point to a specific moment of indoctrination, the influence of media and cultural narratives played a significant role in shaping her views. She describes this influence as a "cultural dis-ease" that permeated her academic environment. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:00 The nature of progressivism and its influence on individual identity. 03:10 Reflections on Academic Experience and Ideological Influences 16:57 Progressivism and Utopia. Joy elaborated on the embedded telos within progressivism, arguing that it promotes a self-centric worldview and lacks a grounding in faith expressing concern that this perspective leads to a deceptive notion of progress and justice. 25:03 The concept of sin and its relation to personal identity, suggesting that the struggle between good and evil exists within each individual. How external power structures can lead to internalized anger and health issues. 41:25 Shame and guilt can lead to a sense of dissociation from identity 1:06:25 Personal reflections on education and growth through struggle

Tyler Hollett, a problem-solver and facilitator within Discord communities, shares insights from his journey through various online spaces and the creation of the Metagora project, which aims to streamline educational curricula within a community setting. They conclude by discussing the potential of Tyler's website, which features a dynamic visual representation of available knowledge along with opportunities presented by challenges as catalysts for growth and innovation. Timestamps: 00:00 Exploring Identity and Meaning in a Digital Age 08:38 Tyler’s Journey Through Despair and Discovery 17:30 Concept of "Not Knowing" and Growth Mechanisms 20:53 Collective Dynamics and the Nature of Reality 40:41 Exploring Collective Understanding and Community Building 50:41 Website Functionality and Community Rebuilding Concepts 54:50 The Interplay of Meaning, Relationship, and Choice 1:02:50 Tyler's Journey and Educational Initiatives 1:13:48 Exploring the Nature of Life and Matter 1:25:00 Discussion on Project Development and Website Features

Michael has been a regular on The Meaning Code discussing such topics as Owen Barfield, data compression and radical orthodoxy, and today, he joins to consider the meaning and role of narrative. Topics Covered: Exploring Particle Self-Organization The Limits of Objective Perspective in Science and Transcendence Computational Epistemology and Meaning in Tradition Exploring Desires and Identity through the Lens of Jesus The Intersection of Science and Christianity Evolution of Scientific Narratives Reflections on Control and Freedom Discussion on AI Tools and Personal Updates

Much of this conversation can be enjoyed In podcast form, but if you want to see Lester's art during the discussion, the YouTube format would be better.https://youtu.be/DsLS-vojqt4A rich dialogue between Karen Wong and Lester Rappaport, focusing on their artistic journeys and the intellectual influences (Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke, among others) that have shaped their work: The conversation sets a collaborative tone, with both participants exploring their artistic processes and the broader cultural movements they are part of, particularly those emerging from Toronto. Lester recounted his introduction to John Vervaeke's ideas and the impact of discussions with other thinkers, which led him to connect with Karen. They both expressed excitement about being part of a transformative intellectual renaissance, highlighting the significance of various influential figures. The conversation then shifted to the artistic history of Toronto, with discussions about the David Mirvish Gallery and the evolution of their respective artistic practices. Karen shared her journey through different painting mediums, while Lester reflected on his transition from drawing to abstract art, emphasizing the importance of spontaneity and exploration in artistic expression. Karen introduced Stephen Wolfram's innovative ideas in physics, particularly his alternative understanding of space and time. This led to a conversation about generative models and the relational aspects of the universe, referencing physicist Carlo Rovelli's views. The dialogue also touched on personal reading habits and the transformative impact of engaging with philosophical texts. With reflections on personal growth, grief, and the transformative power of art, Lester shared how his experiences, including the loss of his mother and a cancer diagnosis, influenced his artistic development and led to significant lifestyle changes. Both participants discussed the interplay of culture and personal experiences in shaping their artistic expressions, referencing Jordan Peterson's insights on navigating cultural roles. The conversation ends with a philosophical exploration of art's implications, with Lester articulating the significance of his artistic choices and Karen emphasizing the connection between life and the creative process.

Brantley Vosler is a worship pastor and joins Karen to talk about the nature of meaning as it relates to music, as a language and as a path forward.