The Michael Shermer Show

In this episode of The Michael Shermer Show, Michael sits down with two giants of mind and machine science: Jay McClelland, one of the founders of modern neural networks, and Gaurav Suri, computational neuroscientist and director of the RAD Lab. Drawing from decades of research, they walk us through the revolution from behaviorism to cognitive psychology to modern neuroscience, and why simple interacting units can give rise to astonishingly complex behaviors.  From why we perceive letters differently in context to how memory works, why consciousness remains baffling, and what AI is (and isn't) actually doing, this episode dives deep into the mechanics of all levels of thought, mind, and even consciousness. Jay McClelland is a professor of psychology and of computer science and linguistics at Stanford University. He is one of the most influential and well-known cognitive scientists of the past century. He is the founder of the study of artificial neural networks, and his publications have been cited more than 100,000 times. He is a member of the National Academy of Sciences and a Corresponding Fellow of the British Academy. Gaurav Suri is an associate professor of psychology at San Francisco State University. He is a computational neuroscientist and an experimental psychologist. He is the director of RADLab, where he studies the mechanisms that shape motivated action and decision making. He is the co-author of the prize-winning novel A Certain Ambiguity and several dozen influential research papers.   Their new book is The Emergent Mind: How Intelligence Arises in People and Machines.

Astrobiologist Caleb Scharf joins Michael Shermer for a wide-ranging conversation about the past, present, and future of our relationship with space. Drawing on his new book The Giant Leap, Scharf explains why human expansion beyond Earth may be less a choice than an evolutionary development, and he walks through the physics, history, and personalities that shaped our journey off the planet. Scharf also explains the biological toll of radiation and microgravity, and why terraforming Mars is probably unrealistic and why our future might rely more on building vast rotating habitats in space than on settling other planets. Caleb Scharf is an astrobiologist and recipient of the 2022 Carl Sagan Medal. He was Director of Astrobiology at Columbia University in New York and is now the Senior Scientist for Astrobiology at the NASA Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley. He is author of more than 120 scientific papers and over 500 popular science articles. His new book is The Giant Leap: Why Space is the Next Frontier in the Evolution of Life. 

In this episode, Michel-Yves Bolloré lays out his case for why modern cosmology, fine-tuning, and the limits of materialism point toward a creator. Drawing on physics, thermodynamics, probability, and philosophy, he argues that the Big Bang, the apparent beginning of the universe, and the complexity of life collectively form a compelling body of evidence for God's existence. Bolloré explains why he believes the universe is not eternal, why "nothing" cannot produce "something," how moral red lines suggest a transcendent source, and how he reconciles scientific reasoning with his Christian faith, while Michael Shermer gently but rigorously presses him with questions to elicit his strongest arguments. Michel-Yves Bolloré is an engineer and entrepreneur whose career spans industrial innovation and philanthropic investment in education. He is a graduate of the École Nationale Supérieure d'Ingénieur de Toulouse and Paris-Dauphine University (Master of Science and Doctorate in Business Administration). He founded several schools, including The Laurels in London and Les Vignes in France. He is also a Knight of the Legion of Honor. His new book is God: the Science and the Evidence.

Have you ever thought about the science and history of … wind? In this episode, Simon Winchester explains why eastbound flights are usually faster than flying west, and how the discovery of the jet stream was almost missed because the original research was published in Esperanto. He also talks about the debate over the Great Terrestrial Stilling—the idea that global wind speeds may be decreasing—and why newer measurements suggest the trend may be reversing. Winchester describes how and where the highest wind speed ever recorded was measured, the increasing frequency of clear-air turbulence (the kind that causes sudden drops during flights), why only one flag placed on the Moon fell, the techniques used by Polynesian navigators to cross vast stretches of ocean without instruments, and the challenges faced by early wartime pilots who unintentionally flew into the jet stream. Simon Winchester is the acclaimed author of many books, including The Professor and the Madman, which was adapted into a film starring Mel Gibson and Sean Penn, as well as The Men Who United the United States, The Map That Changed the World, The Man Who Loved China, A Crack in the Edge of the World, and Krakatoa. His books have been New York Times bestsellers and have appeared on numerous best-of-the-year lists. In 2006 he was appointed an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) by Her Majesty the Queen.

In this episode, Angus Fletcher explains why the human brain doesn't work like a computer and why our deepest strengths come not from logic or data processing but from imagination, emotion, and the ability to invent new futures. Drawing on neuroscience, Shakespeare, evolutionary biology, and his work with U.S. Army Special Operations, Fletcher shows how storytelling is the brain's oldest "technology," why intelligence is rooted in action rather than analysis, and what most people get wrong about creativity and common sense. Angus Fletcher is a professor of story science at Ohio State's Project Narrative, the world's leading academic think tank dedicated to understanding how stories work. He earned his PhD from Yale, conducted postdoctoral research at Stanford, and in 2023 received the U.S. Army's Commendation Medal for his groundbreaking work with Army Special Operations on primal intelligence. He has also written screenplays for major Hollywood studios and networks. His new book is Primal Intelligence: You Are Smarter Than You Know.

War begins in the human mind long before it unfolds on the battlefield. In this episode, Michael Shermer sits down with Nicholas Wright, a neurologist, neuroscientist, security strategist, and advisor to the Pentagon, to explore one of the biggest questions of our time: why do humans fight, and how does the brain shape violence, leadership, and geopolitical decision-making? Nicholas Wright is a member of the Royal Colleges of Physicians and a neuroscientist who researches the brain, technology, and security at University College London, Georgetown University, and the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, DC. He worked as a neurology doctor in London and Oxford, and has published numerous academic papers which have been covered by the BBC and The New York Times. His new book is Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain.

Why do smart people join dangerous cults, follow bad leaders, or stay silent when they know something's wrong? In this episode, Michael Shermer talks with organizational psychologist Colin Fisher about the science of group dynamics and conformity. From jazz bands to political mobs, Fisher explains how our evolutionary need to belong both unites and blinds us. He discusses the psychology of revenge, polarization, social media extremism, and why our brains are wired to dehumanize "the other." What makes a group innovative instead of dogmatic? And how close are we—really—to turning everyday politics into a cult? Colin M. Fisher is an Associate Professor of Organizations and Innovation at University College London's School of Management. His research focuses on helping groups and teams in situations requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision-making. He has written about group dynamics for both popular science and management audiences, and his work has been profiled in prominent media outlets such as BBC, Forbes, NPR, and The Times. His new book is The Collective Edge: Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups.

In this episode, Michael Shermer explores anomalous experiences through personal anecdotes and historical examples. He reflects on how to balance healthy skepticism with open-mindedness, and how to reckon with the very real emotional significance of such experiences—regardless of the scientific explanations behind them.

A former senior intelligence officer explains how espionage is evolving in the age of AI and amid rising global tensions with China, and why the mass harvesting of data affects not just nation-states, but all of us. The discussion also explores the history of spying, what life is really like for intelligence officers, and major intelligence failures and scandals, including 9/11 and Edward Snowden's unauthorized disclosures about the NSA. Anthony Vinci served as the first Chief Technology Officer at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA). Earlier in his career he served in Iraq, Africa, and Asia. He is an Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) and received his PhD in International Relations from the London School of Economics. His new book is The Fourth Intelligence Revolution: The Future of Espionage and the Battle to Save America.

Archaeologist Ken Feder sheds light on how archaeology separates evidence from wishful thinking and entertaining storytelling. He explains what rock art, radiocarbon dating, and DNA can really tell us about the first peoples of the Americas, and talks about the different theories about ancient human migration and the impact of European contact on Native American populations. He also shares what we know about Atlantis, the Lost Tribes of Israel, and what to make of Graham Hancock's visions of an ancient apocalypse. Kenneth L. Feder is professor emeritus of anthropology at Central Connecticut State University. His new book is Native America: The Story of the First People.

Michael Shermer sits down with Charles Murray (author of The Bell Curve, Coming Apart, and now Taking Religion Seriously) for a riveting 100-minute conversation about Murray's late-life turn from Harvard-bred agnosticism ("Smart people don't believe that stuff anymore") to Bayesian theism ("I put the afterlife at just over 50%"). This wide-ranging discussion explores the evidence for the existence of God and the afterlife, the problem of evil, and the historical growth of Christianity. They also delve into topics such as the nature of consciousness, terminal lucidity, and even evolutionary vs. religious perspectives on love. A thought-provoking exploration for skeptics, seekers, and anyone wondering whether the universe has a purpose. Charles Murray is a policy analyst educated at Harvard and MIT and currently serves as the Hayek Emeritus Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. He is the author of several influential books, including the controversial The Bell Curve, Coming Apart, and Facing Reality. His most recent book is Taking Religion Seriously.

In this episode, Harvard primatologist Christine Webb challenges one of our deepest beliefs: that humans stand apart from the rest of nature. She traces the roots of human exceptionalism from Aristotle and Descartes to modern science, and explains why we still cling to hierarchies of intelligence. While most critiques of human exceptionalism focus on our moral obligation toward other species, Webb argues that they overlook what humanity stands to gain by letting go of its illusions of uniqueness and superiority. Christine Webb is a primatologist at Harvard's Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, with expertise in social behavior, cognition, and emotion. Her new book is The Arrogant Ape: The Myth of Human Exceptionalism and Why it Matters.

Are we entering a Fifth Great Awakening—a cultural swing back toward religion? An increasing number of books and articles are calling for a religious revival. "We need religion to keep our society functioning." "People need meaning." Michael Shermer responds to and revisits the historical waves of religious fervor that shaped American life. He also asks what today's renewed interest in faith, spirituality, and meaning says about our culture. Featuring commentary on new books by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Charles Murray, and a preview of Helen Pluckrose's new article for Skeptic.

Pulitzer-winner Caroline Fraser maps the lives and crimes of Ted Bundy and his infamous peers—the Green River Killer, the I-5 Killer, the Night Stalker, the Hillside Strangler, and even Charles Manson—and explores an intriguing hypothesis: might environmental factors have played a role in the rise of serial killers in the 1970s and '80s? Caroline Fraser is the author of Prairie Fires: The American Dreams of Laura Ingalls Wilder, which won the Pulitzer Prize. She is also the author of God's Perfect Child: Living and Dying in the Christian Science Church, and her writing has appeared in The New York Review of Books, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, Los Angeles Times, and London Review of Books, among other publications. Her new book is Murderland: Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers.

First installment of our new series Shermer Says.  Topics covered: Debate Skills Nobel Peace Prize 2025 Autism & Tylenol COVID Vaccines & Myocarditis ANTIFA Bari Weiss & CBS News New Skeptic Research Center Study

For many decision scientists, their starting point—drawn from economics—is a quantitative formula called Rational Choice Theory, allowing people to calculate and choose the best options. The problem is that this framework assumes an overly simplistic picture of the world, in which different types of values can be quantified and compared, leading to the "most rational" choice. Behavioral economics acknowledges that irrationality is common but still accepts the underlying belief from economics of what a rational decision should look like.   Drawing from economics, psychology, and philosophy—and both inspired by and challenging Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow—Barry Schwartz shows how the focus on rationality, narrowly understood, fails to fully describe how we think about our decisions, much less help us make better ones. Barry Schwartz is professor emeritus of psychology at Swarthmore College and visiting professor at Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley. His research and writing focus on the intersection of psychology and economics, particularly with regard to decision-making, intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and the nature of human values. His books include The Paradox of Choice, Why We Work, and (as coauthor) Practical Wisdom. His new book, co-authored with the philosopher Richard Schuldenfrei, is Choose Wisely: Rationality, Ethics, and the Art of Decision-Making.

Why do we crave revenge? And why can't we stop? In this episode, James Kimmel explains the neuroscience behind one of our most destructive urges. Drawing from his new book, The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction, Kimmel reveals how revenge activates the same brain circuits as drugs like cocaine—and why even imagining payback can feel euphoric. If you've ever fantasized about revenge (and who hasn't?), whether in politics or personal relationships, this episode offers a chilling yet hopeful look at the science of moral outrage and redemption. James Kimmel, Jr., JD, is a lecturer in psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine, a lawyer, and the founder and co-director of the Yale Collaborative for Motive Control Studies. A breakthrough scholar and expert on revenge, he first identified compulsive revenge seeking as an addiction and developed the behavioral addiction model of revenge as a public health approach for preventing and treating violence. His new book is The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction—and How to Overcome It.

What really defines a cult—and why do smart, well-intentioned people get caught up in them? In this episode, Michael Shermer sits down with cult intervention specialist Ashlen Hilliard to explore the psychology of high-control groups and the people drawn into them. Her work has been featured in prominent media outlets like Hulu, NewsNation, HuffPost, and BET+. In 2022, Ashlen founded People Leave Cults, offering intervention and recovery resources for survivors and concerned loved ones. As one of the few Cult Intervention Specialists in the country, Ashlen consults with a team of experts to develop personalized intervention strategies for families that have a loved one involved in a range of coercive situations, including cults, gangs, domestic violence, trafficking, and violent extremism. She also served as the Director of Events for the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA), organizing regional and international events, workshops, and conferences for those affected by the cult phenomena and psychological manipulation. She is touring the Fall of 2025 in these cities for her show https://www.psychologyofcults.com/: October 8    Jacksonville, FL    Florida Theatre  October 9    Newberry, SC    Newberry Opera House  October 11    Huntsville, AL    Mars Music Hall  October 12    Bristol, TN    Paramount Bristol  October 14    Charleston, WV    Maier Foundation Performing Hall  October 16    Stroudsburg, PA    Sherman Theater  October 17    Morristown, NJ    Mayo Performing Arts Center  October 18    Stamford, CT    Palace Theatre  October 19    Concord, NH    Chubb Theatre  October 21    Buffalo, NY    Electric City  October 22    Columbus, OH    The Southern Theatre  October 24    Pontiac, MI    Flagstar Strand Theatre  October 26    Cincinnati, OH    Bogart's  October 28    Chicago, IL    City Winery  October 29    Indianapolis, IN    Clowes Memorial Hall  October 30    Cleveland, OH    Connor Palace  November 23 Livermore, CA    Livermore Valley Performing Arts Center 

Michael Shermer sits down with economist and Franklin descendant Dr. Mark Skousen to explore the wit, wisdom, and modern relevance of Benjamin Franklin, the man who bridged science, politics, and philosophy like no other. Shermer and Skousen discuss Franklin's contributions to science, moral philosophy, economics, and religious thought, while asking: What would Franklin make of today's America—its economy, politics, and culture? Mark Skousen holds the Doti-Spogli Chair of Free Enterprise at Chapman University. Known as "America's Economist," he is the editor of Forecasts & Strategies, an award winning investment newsletter, and producer of FreedomFest, "the world's largest gathering of free minds." He is the author of over 25 books, incl. his latest, The Greatest American: Benjamin Franklin, The World's Most Versatile Genius.

The COVID-19 pandemic was a devastating global event, killing more than seven million people, straining the fabric of societies, and shaking the foundations of the world economy. And yet, as horrifying as the experience was, COVID-19 was not "The Big One" — the dreaded pandemic that haunts the nightmares of epidemiologists and public health officials everywhere. That far deadlier outbreak is still ahead of us, and it will reshape life across the planet unless we're ready for it. In this episode, Dr. Michael Osterholm, one of the world's leading infectious disease experts, explains what we got wrong, what we got right, and what it all reveals about our preparedness for the next great pandemic. Michael Osterholm is Regents Professor and McKnight Presidential Endowed Chair in Public Health at the University of Minnesota, where he founded and directs the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP). An internationally renowned epidemiologist with fifty years of experience, he's led major outbreak investigations worldwide and authored over 350 papers. He served as a U.S. State Department science envoy from 2017-2019. His new book is The Big One: How We Must Prepare for Future Deadly Pandemics.