Automation and cheap data turned outbound into spam and Google’s new rules are shutting the door on mass email. AI only made the noise louder. In this episode we break down how the predictable-revenue model collapsed, why reply rates keep falling, and why phone calls and research-driven outreach are proving more effective. JB Daguené, founder and CEO of Evergrowth, explains how his team uses AI digital colleagues to help sales teams start real conversations instead of just firing off sequences. (00:00) - Introduction (01:05) - JB's Journey with Trustpilot (04:04) - The Early Days of E-commerce and Customer-Centric Sales (14:37) - The Impact of Predictable Revenue (17:47) - The Rise of SDRs and Data Challenges (18:53) - How did we get here? (21:57) - Automation, AI and Pipeline Management (24:40) - The SDR Playbook (26:57) - Challenges with Tools and Silos (29:17) - Google's Crackdown on Email Spam (33:04) - The Resurgence of Phone Calls (35:48) - Evergrowth's AI Tool (37:58) - Understanding Agentic Workflows (45:47) - Avoiding AI Hallucinations (53:55) - Wrapping up (55:51) - Next Week: Chris Walker on Frequency
Leaderrs rarely talk about their own health even though it drives every decision. Toni and Raul share their own experiences and what they learned from interviews with 17 founders and C-level leaders about mental and physical habits.They dig into how stress, sleeplessness and company performance feed into each other, how common burnout and anxiety really are, and why so many leaders slip into drinking or other forms of self-medication without noticing.(00:00) - Introduction (06:45) - Mental sealth statistics among founders (09:33) - Physical Health and Company Performance (11:53) - Stress and sickness correlation (16:17) - Do we self medicate too much? (23:33) - Health routines of successful CEOs (28:20) - Exercise routines (30:32) - Challenges of maintaining health when you have kids (34:19) - Health as a job responsibility for founders (39:21) - Improving sleep quality (44:04) - Diet and nutrition (47:13) - Final thoughts (48:50) - Next week: JB from Evergrowth on sales and automation
Want to lose your best sales reps fast? Screw up their comp plan. In this episode, we sit down with Antoine Fort, CEO of Qobra, to dig into the classic mistakes that drive top performers out the door. We talk about why overcomplicated plans kill motivation, how underpaying top reps quietly drains revenue, and why immediacy and trust are non-negotiable if you want comp plans to work.We also get into clawbacks, the mess of usage-based and outcome-based models, and what really happens when you ignore the value of your top reps. Antoine explains why accelerators, recognition, and clear career paths matter just as much as salary, and why forcing high performers into management usually blows up in your face.(00:00) - Introduction (00:54) - Antoine's Background and Qobra (07:01) - Challenges in Sales Compensation (10:49) - Simplicity in Compensation Plans (14:16) - Immediacy and Trust in Sales Compensation (18:57) - You're Underpaying Top Sales Reps (30:31) - How to Keep Your Best Reps Happy (39:26) - Commission on Renewing Customers (41:18) - Retention Strategies for Sales Reps (44:35) - Hiring New Reps: When and How (46:02) - AI and Usage-Based Pricing Challenges (01:00:39) - Differences in Commission Structures: US vs Europe (01:04:32) - Next Week: Health & Mental Health for Founders
AI SDRs, pipeline starvation, and overhyped tools dominate today’s revenue conversations. But how much of it actually works in practice?Toni sits down with Todd Busler, CEO of Champify, to cut through the noise. They dig into the reality of AI in sales, the pressure to chase shiny tools, and why short-term thinking is breaking go-to-market strategy. Todd also shares the underestimated challenges of founding a company and where he sees real opportunities for growth.(00:00) - Introduction (01:11) - Todd's Journey to Founding Champify (06:48) - Challenges in Go-to-Market Strategies (10:44) - The Reality of AI SDRs (13:42) - Cost-Cutting with AI (18:11) - Jason Lemkin's AI Insights (21:14) - Overhyped Tools? (26:45) - The Short-Term Pressure in Go-to-Market (30:27) - Zombie Unicorns and Market Realities (32:05) - Trends in Cold Calling and Power Dialers (34:42) - The Rise of In-Person Events (36:50) - Navigating the Confusing Tooling Landscape (42:02) - The Challenges of Starting a Company (47:18) - The Pressure of Venture Capital (54:42) - Closing Thoughts (56:00) - Next Week: Antoine Fort, CEO of Qobra
Pipelines are drying up. AI hasn’t delivered the growth it promised. And the old playbooks like SEO and outbound just don’t work the way they used to. We call it the great pipeline starvation, and in this episode we break down what’s really happening, what it means for sales and marketing teams, and how companies are trying to adapt. This episode is brought to you by ZoomInfo, the Go-To-Market Intelligence Platform. ZoomInfo gives you high-quality B2B data and sales intelligence on in-market buyers across companies of all sizes, powered by AI-driven automation with integrated outreach tools to help your GTM teams build pipeline and close deals faster. Check them out at zoominfo.com/revenue-formulaWant to work with us? Learn more: revformula.io(00:00) - Introduction (02:10) - Pipeline starvation (05:22) - Breakout companies are dominating (06:50) - The cost of lead gen (15:54) - The role of AI in cost reduction (20:18) - The future of sales and marketing automation (27:10) - The impact of AI on job roles (31:05) - The limitations of AI in growth (35:21) - The augment Bucket: Enhancing roles (39:36) - Zero waste GTM (46:35) - Final thoughts (47:27) - Next week: Todd Busler on the rev tech industry
What do video games have to do with business growth? More than you think.In this episode, Toni and Raul explain how their gaming past helps them spot company issues almost instantly. Using the idea of levels, just like in video games, they show why businesses get stuck, how to know what level your company is really on, and what it takes to move forward the right way.Want to be a guest on the show? Learn more at revformula.io(00:00) - Introduction (06:53) - Levels Explained (11:53) - Hiring the Right People at the Right Time (16:41) - Strategic Roadmaps and Levels (19:12) - Situational Dependency in Business Advice (20:14) - CRM Implementation Challenges (25:28) - The Importance of Process Maturity (31:47) - Three Main Problems (35:13) - Our Solution (37:30) - Next Week: Zero Waste GTM
Remote work and AI promised to make us more productive. The data says otherwise.In this episode, we unpack new research showing remote workers put in about two and a half hours less each day than office teams, and studies suggesting AI tools can weaken critical thinking and slow skill growth. We explore what happens when these trends collide, how they impact career development, and why leaders need to address the issue now.Sources:U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics 2024 study Measuring the Impact of Early-2025 AI on Experienced Open-Source Developer Productivity Your Brain on ChatGPT: Accumulation of Cognitive Debt when Using an AI Assistant for Essay Writing Task Never miss a new episode, join our newsletter on revenueformula.substack.com(00:00) - Introduction (03:25) - Research: Remote work is not working (09:31) - Parkinson's Law of Productivity (16:50) - Distractions in work environments (17:48) - Remote work and career development (24:01) - AI's impact on developers (28:41) - Study: AI making us dumber? (32:34) - The Future of Cognitive Functions (40:59) - Final thoughts (41:58) - Next week: What have we been working on?
In this episode, we talk about the messy shift from founder-led sales to something more scalable. A lot of teams trip up here. It's not just about hiring the right people, it's about whether the company is actually ready for them.Early sales hires often fail because the structure, process, or timing is off. The conversation introduces the idea of level awareness, a way to figure out if your setup matches the stage you're in. The same problems tend to repeat, whether you're at $1M or $50M ARR.(00:00) - Introduction (02:12) - Challenges in Founder-Led Sales (05:36) - Diagnosing Founder-Led Sales Issues (08:36) - Hiring Challenges and Misconceptions (11:12) - Framework for Scaling Sales Teams (13:39) - Levels of Sales Maturity (19:20) - Defining Level One (23:27) - Hiring for Stage Level Fit (25:25) - Common Founder Regrets (27:13) - Hiring Sales Leaders with Level Awareness (34:53) - Challenges of Premature Scaling (36:31) - Conclusion (37:37) - Next Week: Is Remote Work & AI Making Us Less Productive?
Did AI actually kill SEO? Or are recent traffic drops for sites like HubSpot a sign of something else entirely? In this episode, we’re joined by Sam Dunning, founder of Breaking B2B and a leading expert on search strategy, to unpack what’s actually happening in the world of SEO. We talk about how AI overviews are changing the way people find information, and what it all means for marketers and revenue teams.Sam shares when SEO still makes sense, when it doesn’t, and what to focus on if you want to drive real pipeline today. We also dive into AI-generated content, the role of brand in LLM-driven search, and how to build a practical keyword strategy that works in 2025.(00:00) - Introduction (01:58) - Did AI kill SEO? (06:17) - When SEO doesn't make sense (10:05) - Does SEO still take forever to build? (12:24) - Should we just generate AI content? (15:39) - Buidling a Money Keyword Matrix (22:20) - Who should own the matrix? (24:45) - Quicker vs longer strategies (29:07) - Old school SEO in a world of LLMs (34:08) - Brand builders have a step up (36:21) - Common LLM hacks (43:00) - Measuring SEO in a world of LLMs (48:24) - Nothing's changed. Everything's changed. (50:29) - Wrapping up
Nobody wants to touch pricing. It’s political, it’s messy, and if it goes wrong, everyone remembers who led the project. But here’s the thing—when it works, it really works.In this episode, Toni and Raul talk about why pricing changes freak people out, what actually happens when you go through with them, and how even small tweaks can drive serious revenue. They’ve both run pricing projects that paid off big, and they’ve got the scars to prove it.If pricing’s been on your to-do list forever but you keep punting it… this one’s for you.(00:00) - Introduction (01:36) - The dread of pricing changes (04:29) - Balancing new prices and losing customers (05:53) - Lead pricing changes without losing your job (08:55) - Who should own pricing changes? (10:10) - Creating a pricing steering committee (12:38) - Consultants in pricing projects (17:00) - Are we over complicating it? (19:44) - Churn and pricing relationship (25:02) - The external and internal narrative (29:47) - Phasing pricing changes (31:10) - Pricing moves in PLG (32:59) - Conclusion
In this episode, we’re joined by Chris Tottman from Notion Capital. Before becoming a VC, Chris co-founded MessageLabs and helped grow it into a $700 million exit, so he’s seen the startup journey from both sides of the table.We talk about what really happens when your product-market fit starts to slip—and why it quietly wrecks your entire go-to-market strategy. Sales start missing targets. Marketing can’t get traction. Churn creeps up. But most teams keep pushing forward without realizing the core problem is the product just doesn’t fit anymore.(00:00) - Introduction (09:55) - Common mistakes in Go-To-Market strategies (19:54) - Identifying a VC case (30:05) - Importance of Product Market Fit (39:38) - Transitioning from VC to PE (50:07) - Next week: pricing changes
Not all consultants are worth it. Some drive real impact. Others just burn your time and budget.In this episode, Toni and Raul dive into how to tell the difference. They break down when it actually makes sense to bring in outside help, how to vet someone properly, and the biggest red flags to avoid.You'll learn why consulting is a real skill, what good execution support looks like, and how to think about pricing and value. (00:00) - Introduction (02:48) - Do you actually need consultants? (05:22) - The consulting relationship with startups (08:29) - Identifying red flags (10:41) - The hammer people (16:17) - Consulting is a skill (21:14) - Consultants as challengers (24:40) - Pricing and value in consulting (30:06) - Execution and enablement (33:38) - Summary (35:45) - Next week: Chris Tottman on VCs
In a world of AI-generated noise and automated outreach, Cliff Simon has built a multi-million dollar business by doing something simple but rare: showing up in person.In this episode, Cliff shares how he turned events, community dinners, and authentic relationships into a powerful go-to-market strategy. He breaks down why most event-based approaches fail, what it really means to play the long game, and how founders and revenue leaders can drive growth without relying on cold outreach.Never miss a new episode! Join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com(00:00) - Introduction (01:53) - The Importance of In-Person (06:01) - The Role of Pavilion (08:08) - Building Relationships (12:09) - Building for Long Term (16:41) - Modern Networking Tactics (21:58) - Evaluating Event Success (24:57) - Common Misconceptions in Event Strategy (26:34) - Effective Event Strategies (31:39) - The Power of Personal Branding (32:13) - Comparing Rev Ops Events (36:28) - Next Week: What You Need to Know About Consultants
We sat down and unpacked the messy, unfiltered reality of being a startup CEO.The kind no one tells you about. Not at panels. Not in TechCrunch puff pieces. And definitely not on LinkedIn.This isn’t a “how I built this” highlight reel. It’s what actually happens when you’re juggling investors, layoffs, spin cycles, fundraising failures, and the kind of decisions that keep you up for months.We dig into why CEO life is less “Davos and private jets” and more “burnout, pressure, and zero control.” What it’s like to be the person everyone expects answers from, even when you’re not sure yourself. And why founders need less hype—and way more empathy.Never miss a new episode! Join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com(00:00) - Introduction (01:44) - Inside the minds of CEOs (06:47) - Transparency and communication (08:37) - Dealing with the worst problems (09:51) - Limited control and influence (10:59) - Fundraising challenges (15:54) - Financial realities of CEOs (24:57) - The emotional toll (27:24) - Decision-making pressures (37:16) - Final thoughts
Is outbound dead? Not exactly. But it is changing fast.In this episode, Raul and Toni break down why the old outbound playbook is failing, where it still works, and how AI is reshaping the SDR role. We get into why brute force cold calls and emails are hitting their limits, why connect rates keep dropping, and where smart teams are still seeing success.We also talk about the rise of “new world SDRs,” how AI tools are changing prospecting, and how to use spiffs to actually build skills, not just spike activity. If you lead a sales team or run outbound, this one’s for you.Never miss a new episode! Join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com(00:00) - Introduction (02:09) - Problems with the old world SDR approach (12:31) - The role of SDRs in the age of AI (16:15) - What should SDRs do now? (25:26) - Using SPIFS to drive change (36:09) - Conclusion and final thoughts (37:25) - Up next: the real life of a CEO
We got our hands on Jacco van der Kooij’s latest GTM playbook. The one he’s only been sharing behind closed doors at high-ticket, invite-only events. And yes, we’re leaking it. This isn’t just a few new tactics. It’s a complete shift in how revenue leaders think about growth. No more chasing leads at all costs. No more funnels that fall apart at scale. Instead, it’s about turning your users into your biggest growth engine. We dig into what’s changing, what companies like Notion and Snowflake are doing differently, and why this approach might be the healthiest way to grow in B2B right now. Never miss a new episode! join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com (00:00) - Introduction (01:24) - Exploring the New Playbook (08:04) - Activating Your User Base (23:01) - The tiered users ecosystem (29:43) - Cohort-Based Events (36:56) - Human-Led Growth: The Power of Real Connections (43:21) - The New Playbook: Integrating Sales and Success (51:23) - Up next: The SDR Playbook
Why are so many SaaS executives struggling to get hired?In this episode, Raul and Toni dive deep into the surprising stat that 25% of Pavilion members—many of them seasoned SaaS execs—are currently “on the bench.” We explore what’s really going on in the market, how layoffs and short stints are damaging even top-tier CVs, and why CROs are applying for AE roles just to stay in the game. We also talk mental health, the rise of “consulting” as a placeholder, and whether now might be the time to walk away from SaaS altogether. If you're a founder, CRO, or GTM leader, this one's for you. Never miss a new episode! join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com (00:00) - Introduction (02:18) - 25% of Pavilion execs "on the bench" (03:41) - The SaaS recession (09:08) - Job hunting and mental health issues (13:48) - Going into consulting (18:26) - Leave tech behind? (22:01) - Private equity and VC roles (24:48) - Rethinking CV evaluations (28:09) - Conclusion (29:31) - Up next: Jacco's new playbook
What if a company could hit $10M ARR per founder—with zero employees? In this episode, Amos Bar-Joseph (CEO of Swan) joins Toni to break down their radical vision: scaling to $30M ARR with just three founders and an army of AI agents. They unpack what it really means to run an "autonomous business," why headcount isn't always the answer, and how AI is transforming go-to-market strategy from the inside out.If you're a founder, CRO, or GTM leader, this one's for you. Never miss a new episode! join our newsletter at revenueformula.substack.com (00:00) - Introduction (02:23) - Road to $30M ARR with AI (05:11) - Orchestration over operation (07:35) - Navigating AI and human jobs (11:43) - Strategies for scaling with AI (22:20) - The Second Wave of AI (25:38) - What exactly is Swan? (28:46) - The future of AI in business (36:58) - The new AI playbook (41:49) - Wrapping up (42:19) - Up next: Unemployment in the GTM community
AI won’t fix your sales model if the foundation is broken. In this episode, Jacco van der Kooij explains why the old go-to-market playbook is collapsing—and what the new, AI-powered future actually looks like.Never miss a new episode, join our newsletter on revenueformula.substack.com(00:00) - Introduction (02:32) - AI and the old playbook (10:34) - The role of customers in growth (25:56) - Human-Led Growth Powered by AI (33:57) - AI Integration in Sales (37:51) - The Future of AI in Business Operations (46:09) - Wrapping up (48:37) - On the next episode
Thinking about adding AI SDRs to your sales team? In this episode, we break down what actually works—and what doesn't—when implementing AI in your sales development process. From common onboarding mistakes to where AI truly shines (and stumbles), here’s what you need to know before you plug it in. Articles mentioned in the episode:11x CEO Hasan Sukkar steps down - https://techcrunch.com/2025/05/05/11x-ceo-hasan-sukkar-steps-down/Artisan Raises $25M Series A - https://www.forbes.com/sites/dariashunina/2025/04/09/artisan-raises-25m-to-replace-repetitive-work-with-ai-employees/11x.ai Review worth the hype? - https://saassalesdirector.medium.com/11x-ai-review-worth-the-hype-a33e89a9716f Never miss a new episode, join our newsletter on revenueformula.substack.com (00:00) - Introduction (01:21) - Implementing AI SDRs (03:51) - The state of AI SDR vendors (05:58) - AI fatigue is real (07:15) - The AI SDR in your funnel (10:50) - Where the AI is actually better than your team (13:03) - Onboarding and training AI (20:04) - Project managing AI SDRs (24:12) - Wrapping up