The Roys Report

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/T6tDPn5nQ7kThe Church is supposed to be the Bride of Christ and the hope for mankind. But has the church in America become nothing more than a business? On this edition of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Nathan Apffel, a filmmaker who’s working on a docuseries, called The Religion Business. Nathan, who has more than 15 years of experience in TV and film production, is confronting megachurches and their pastors with their lack of financial accountability. He’s demanding to know their salaries and housing allowances—and he’s not taking no for an answer. Last month, he got arrested when he showed up at Ed Young’s megachurch in Grapevine, Texas, carrying signs asking what Ed’s salary and housing allowance is. Prior to that, Nathan had a run-in with the security team of televangelist Kenneth Copeland on Copeland’s expansive ministry complex, including a mansion and jet runway. Why do megachurches have security teams that protect them from honest questions? Why do so few congregations know what their pastors make? And why do filmmakers get arrested when they demand transparency? Buckle up, because this is a wild interview with someone who’s a bit of a cowboy when it comes to his tactics. But his exposés reveal some alarming practices within the church—and he says he’s on a mission to change them. SUPPORT OUR WORKVisit our Donate page to see our latest year-end financial statement and give to the cause of nonprofit journalism. Guests Nathan Apffel Nathan Apffel, an Emmy-winning filmmaker based in Park City, Utah, aims to spur constructive conversations and action through his films and TV series. As a director and producer, his work has won recognition at numerous film festivals and two Emmy Awards. His upcoming seven-part docuseries, The Religion Business. sheds light on the business of Western Religion, and in particular, Christianity. Learn more about The Religion Business, set to release next year, at the official website.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What’s worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we’ll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God’s narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG   JULIE ROYS  00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.   JULIE ROYS  00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.   DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.   JULIE ROYS  03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.   DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too.   JULIE ROYS  03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?   DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,   JULIE ROYS  04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and  say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.   JULIE ROYS  05:45 So what would you say fruit is?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.   JULIE ROYS  06:10 And yet, so often it is true  when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?   DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.   JULIE ROYS  06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?   DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.   JULIE ROYS  08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there a

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlc Much research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she’s learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn’t have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don’t try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It’s also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who’s in a church with others who’ve experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/v_OzUDcA3u0If you’re like a lot of folks, you look put together on the outside. But inside, there’s a constant churn of unprocessed shame, anger, or grief. Little by little, you’re becoming disconnected from who you really are. But professor, author and licensed therapist, Chuck DeGroat, says it doesn’t have to be this way. And on this podcast, he invites listeners to take the journey to true healing. You may know Chuck as the author of his very popular 2020 book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. But in his newest book, Healing What’s Within, Chuck opens up about one of the most traumatic experiences of his life—when he got fired from his job at a church. Chuck did what a lot of us do when we’re experiencing excruciating pain—he pushed it down and soldiered through. After all, he had a family to support and career to salvage. But eventually, that trauma began to manifest in his body. And he found he could no longer ignore the pain—or rely on his means of coping. He had to confront the profound disconnection he felt from himself, from others, and from God.  With the heart of a caring pastor and expertise of a licensed therapist, Chuck shows the way to hope and healing for the deep wounds within your soul. Guests Chuck DeGroat Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and a faculty member of the Soul Care Institute. He is a therapist, speaker, consultant, pastor, and author of several books including When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Chuck is married to Sara and has two daughters. Learn more at www.chuckdegroat.net Show Transcript SPEAKERSCHUCK DEGROAT, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:04If you’re like a lot of folks, you look really put together on the outside, but on the inside there’s this unprocessed shame, anger, or grief. Little by little, you’re becoming disconnected from who you really are. But my guest today says it doesn’t have to be that way. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is professor, author, and licensed therapist Chuck DeGroat. You may know Chuck is the author of his very popular 2020 book, When Narcissism Comes to Church, but in his newest book, Healing What’s Within, Chuck talks about one of the most traumatic experiences of his life when he got fired from his job at a church. And Chuck did what a lot of us do when we’re experiencing excruciating pain, he pushed it down and soldiered through. After all, he had a family to support and a career to salvage. But eventually that trauma began to manifest in his body, and he found he could no longer ignore the pain or rely on his means of coping. He had to confront the profound disconnection he felt from himself, from others and from God friends. If you’ve been through trauma and today you’re feeling not okay, this episode is for you, and I want you to know there is hope.   JULIE ROYS  01:21 I’m going to get to my interview with Chuck in just a moment. But first, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but the RESTORE Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.com.   JULIE ROYS  02:15 Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  02:42 Well, again, joining me today is Chuck DeGroat, a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. He’s also the founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling program there at Western and he’s a licensed therapist, a spiritual director, and a faculty member with the Soul Care Institute, and he’s written several books, including his latest, Healing What’s Within. So Chuck, welcome. I’m just so thrilled you could join us. Thank you. It’s a privilege. Julie, well, and thanks so much for writing this book, which I believe it releases in just a few days. Are you excited?   CHUCK DEGROAT  03:17 I am excited. You know, I think this is my maybe six go around with writing, and so the anxiety and the pressure just isn’t what it used to be in terms of, will this succeed? But this is a book that came from a pretty deep place and is written for the folks who I’ve worked with over the years who have experienced trauma, the kind of trauma that imprints itself after the abuse, the harm. I’m hopeful for that, that it offers some pathway to healing, invitation to healing for folks.   JULIE ROYS  03:58 I think it will. It was a fantastic book. I know for me, I found so much of it relevant, so I really appreciate it, and I know so many people listening are in different states of healing from trauma, and so I really think this discussion is going to be exceptionally helpful for them. And I should mention too that we’re offering your book as a premium for anybody who donates to The Roys Report. So folks, if you want any info on that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE and we’ll be really eager to get this book in your hands. But Chuck, as you mentioned, this book comes from a really personal place for you, and you reference it throughout the book that you got fired from a church, and that was a very traumatic experience. And you tell some of it in your book, you don’t tell a whole lot of it. Of course, the journalist in me wants to know more. So what can you tell us about that experience and how it impacted you?   CHUCK DEGROAT  04:57 You know, I was 33 at the time in 2003 and I felt like it’s over, I’m done. And I do know that word got out, I’m this pastor attempted to sort of blacklist me. And so I went through a lot of these things that I hear today when I work with pastors, frankly, right? And I think the challenging thing about that is a lot was going on inside of me, and I talk some about this, but I was also a pastor and a therapist, and people looked at me and they said, Oh, you’re handling this so well. We’re so proud of you. When the reality was is that I was a mess, and I really needed someone to say, you must be overwhelmed, exhausted, angry, confused, and I didn’t really have that. So I sort of put my head down and pushed forward and that actually magnified the trauma, because we know that trauma compounds in aloneness when we’re in isolation, which eventually led, as I talk about, to a 2012 hospitalization. But that’s what a lot of us do, and I knew better to some extent. I was a therapist. I had some of the tools, and yet, so many of us who go through situations like that feel isolated. We didn’t have The Roys Report back then, and really very little advocacy, right? And so I’m heartened today that people can tell their stories, that there is advocacy, not for everyone, obviously, right? But I mean, some people still find themselves alone and isolated in these things. But the book, in a sense, is reflection, and I have chosen in the past not to center my own story, but I was encouraged by the publisher, like there are parts of this that I think you need to write  for the readers this time.   JULIE ROYS  06:53 This what is so I think difficult for folks who experience religious trauma is that often accompanying their religious trauma is being cut off from your religious community, from your faith community, and so you are so incredibly alone. Like you get fired from your job, you can retreat to your church, right? You get fired from your church, and you are so so alone.   CHUCK DEGROAT  07:20 You don’t want to go into the grocery store, the local grocery store, if you’re seeing someone, right? ,   JULIE ROYS  07:25 It’s tough. It is so so tough. And I’ve experienced that, and I know probably the majority of people listening to this podcast have experienced it. So this is going to be so incredibly relevant. So in your book, you take us to Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve just sinned, and God comes to them in the garden, and he asks them three questions. And these three questions become sort of the outline for your book. And the first question is, where are you? Can you explain why this question is such an important question for those who are experiencing trauma to consider?   CHUCK DEGROAT  08:02 Just to back up for a minute. It felt to me really important to tell this story in a way that highlighted God’s kindness, God’s presence. Because the story right before that is of this slithering serpent that sort of sidles up to Adam and Eve and asks the question, Did God really say? and really what I’d say is, he targets the hearts of Adam and Eve. He deceives them. He harms them. It’s a story of wounding, harm, deceit, abuse. So some of your listeners, a lot of your listeners’ stories are right there in that story, and with that, with that harm, with that deceit, with those questions, with the confusion, can I can I trust God

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWVNVNJg4n0Normally, people think of grooming as the manipulative process a sexual predator uses to lure his unsuspecting prey. But these same grooming tactics are rife in cult-like churches. So says Mike Donahue, a child sexual abuse survivor who spent many adult years serving under popular author and youth leader, Jeanne Mayo. On this edition of The Roys Report, Mike joins host Julie Roys to tell his tragic but riveting story, revealing shocking truths about megachurch culture. During his childhood, Mike was abused and neglected, making him easy prey for sexual predators. These predators exploited his need for love and attention to fulfill their perverse sexual desires. After escaping these predators, Mike found hope in Jesus and became a Christian. Yet, instead of finding safety in the church, Mike says he found another predator: well-known author and youth leader Jeanne Mayo. Mike says Mayo exploited his same need for love and belonging—not to satisfy sexual appetites, but her craving for success and growth. In this eye-opening discussion, Mike reveals the predatory recruitment tactics he observed in Mayo’s ministry and others, and then was coached and trained to imitate. But he also talks about his journey of discovery, and how he changed after being convicted that the way he was ministering was wrong. Guests Mike Donahue Mike Donahue is a highly sought-after speaker and author on the subjects of respect, bullying, and resiliency. Over the past three decades, he has addressed more than a million students and adults in-person including across the U.S., Asia, South America, and Europe. He has written five books including Hidden Scars and his latest book, Groomed. Mike and his wife, Rachel, who are parents of five children, live in Omaha, Nebraska. Learn more at his website.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSJULIE ROYS, MIKE DONAHUE JULIE ROYS  00:04We normally think of grooming as the manipulative process a sexual predator uses to lure his unsuspecting prey. But these same grooming tactics are rife in cult like churches, so says Mike Donahue, a child sex abuse survivor who spent many adult years serving under a cult-like church leader, and today, Mike joins me to tell his story.   JULIE ROYS  00:25 Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I’m so looking forward to sharing Mike Donahue’s heart wrenching yet critically important message based on his own life experience. In his childhood, Mike was abused and neglected, making him easy prey for sexual predators, and in his new book, Groomed, Mike talks about the tactics these predators used to exploit his need for love and attention to fulfill their perverse sexual desires. But after escaping these predators, Mike found hope in Jesus and became a Christian. Yet instead of finding safety in the church, Mike says he found another predator – well known author, youth pastor and conference speaker Jeanne Mayo. Mike says Mayo exploited his same need for love and belonging, not to satisfy sexual appetites, but her need for success and growth. In this eye-opening discussion, Mike reveals the predatory recruitment tactics he learned in Mayo’s ministry but was coached and trained to imitate. And he talks about how you can safeguard yourself and loved ones against those who would use religion to prey on people to build their own empires.   JULIE ROYS  01:34 I’m so excited to share this really important podcast with you, but first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7 and 8, in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  02:55 Well, again, joining me is Mike Donahue, a survivor of child sexual abuse and then of spiritual abuse in the church. Mike now speaks around the country on bullying, respect, and resiliency, and he’s also written five books, including his latest Groomed, which is a riveting memoir. So Mike, welcome, and I’m just so glad to have you join me. Yeah. Thank   MIKE DONAHUE  03:18  Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s my pleasure to be here today,   JULIE ROYS  03:20 I have to say, Mike, when I first got your book, it’s a self-published book. And when I get self-published books, often the writing isn’t so good, the editing isn’t so good. And so I didn’t have really high expectations as I went to read this, and man was I surprised. This is a page turner from beginning to end. Just a really, really well written book. But your story, your life story,  it’s stunning all that you’ve been through. And so just such a great book, and I think it will be so helpful for so many folks, but it must have been hard. I mean, some of this is incredibly personal, talking about, abuse that you received, and yet, you talk about it quite openly, that must have been tough for you. It was a tough   MIKE DONAHUE  04:08 It was a tough summer last summer when I wrote it, to be honest with you, going through the Boston stuff where I was sexually abused by men in my life. I was involved with the sex trafficking ring from basically a newspaper in Boston. I’m not gonna say which one, but I worked for a newspaper, and we were selling subscriptions to the Globe down on Cape Cod. And the guys that were hired by the Globe, they’re the ones that hired these guys, and they didn’t know, but they were part of a sex trafficking ring, and so they preyed on my vulnerabilities. My dad had left, my mom was really overwhelmed, raising kids by herself, and my dad didn’t pay child support. We were pretty poor, and so I was looking for a job because I needed money, even just to buy clothes. And they knew who they were targeting, and they targeted me. And did all the love bombing, and all the techniques they used to pull you into their web and then did some things that were illegal.   JULIE ROYS  05:10 And we’re going to unpack all of that today, and I’m looking forward to doing that, because I think there’s going to be a lot that’s going to be very eye opening for folks that are listening. I think when I first read the idea of a sex trafficking ring using the same tactics as an Evangelical Church, that’s shocking, absolutely shocking, when you think about it. But as I read your book, I was like, yeah, yeah, it’s the same sort of thing. It’s manipulation, it’s exploitation. I should mention your book, you were able to make that available to us so that we can make it available to donors. So anybody who gives $30 or more to this ministry this month will get a copy of your book. So I’m pretty glad about being able to offer that. So if you’re interested in that, you just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. For a gift of $30 or more, you’ll be supporting what we do here, and you’ll get this incredible resource. So really glad to make that available to folks. So you already referenced this, but your family growing up, had some major dysfunctions, some major deficits, and that set you up for predators to come into your life. Would you unpack that a little bit about what it was about your family that left you with a void that then other people sought to exploit?   06:43 When I speak in high schools, that’s what I do for a living, I always tell the kids that we’re all part of a genetic lottery, right? You get what you get. And I was born in South Boston, Massachusetts, and my dad was an alcoholic, and his history, I’m not going to get into all that, and my mom’s history, you could really get into that. And I did in the book, it’s pretty devastating. So when I landed on the planet in 1962, I was already walking into, or being born into, a really dysfunctional situation. My mom was an alcoholic, but her dad was, and he was a sexual predator. What I always say in schools, is that, you know, my mom came from a long line of abuse. So my great grandmother abused my grandfather, my grandfather abused my mom, and so when my mom had children, she  just wasn’t functional, she wasn’t emotionally functional. So she was triggered a lot by things, and I triggered her because I really miss my dad and wanted my dad around. I wanted a male figure, and she was pretty bitter at him for doing what he did to her and all that stuff.   07:48 So it just was a the perfect storm for a conflict between the two of us. And so I really didn’t have a connection with her emotionally. My mom connection was not really there, very strong. And then I was a pretty wild guy. I did a lot of crazy stuff growing up and found friends that were like me. And we did a lot of things. We self-medicating with alcohol and drugs and that kind of stuff. So when I was in eighth grade, our house burnt down. So I was accidentally caught on fire, and so we had to live in a hotel, and we were really strapped for money at that point. So I got this

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/5I3m2AAHjAYChristian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States. But is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn’t end up in a fight? On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys engages in a lively dialogue with Caleb Campbell—a one-time skinhead who became a Christian and then a pastor. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been ministering in Phoenix—a hotbed of Christian nationalist fervor. Caleb shares candidly how Christian nationalism divided his church and left him so wounded, he had to take a months-long sabbatical. But he says God used this experience to soften his heart and motivate him to reach those ensnared by a powerful, growing movement. Drawing from his own experience leading congregants at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix—and his just-published book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor—Caleb provides a pastor’s primer on Christian nationalism. How do you define this ideology? What are the concerns and potential harms, from both a pastoral and constitutional perspective? And what are some conversational approaches to disarm people who may be ensnared by it? During a contentious election year, this topic is a minefield—with critics waiting to pounce. This thoughtful and compassionate dialogue will help you navigate this minefield and love those with whom you disagree. Guests Caleb Campbell Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a graduate of Phoenix Seminary. He serves as regional director for the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization. He is a co-founder of the J29 Coalition and the founder of Disarming Leviathan. His first book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, was published in 2024. He lives in Phoenix with his wife and children. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States, but is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn’t end up in a fight? Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Caleb Campbell, a one-time skinhead, who became a Christian. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been pastoring a church in Phoenix, Arizona, a hotbed of Christian nationalists fervor. On this podcast, you’ll hear how Christian nationalism divided Caleb’s church and left him so wounded he had to take a sabbatical. [00:00:42] Julie Roys: But you’ll also hear how God used this experience to soften Caleb’s heart and to motivate him to learn more about this movement and how to reach those ensnared by it. And if you’ve struggled to know what to think about Christian nationalism or how to engage with your Christian nationalist friends and family, you’re really going to benefit from this podcast. [00:01:00] Julie Roys: I’ll get to my interview with Caleb in just a moment, but first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The Restore Conference. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. [00:01:23] Julie Roys: But The Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: Again, joining me today is Caleb Campbell, pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He’s also a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary, and he’s the regional director of the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization there in the Phoenix area. He’s also the author of Disarming Leviathan, Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you join me. [00:02:41] Caleb Campbell: It’s my pleasure to be with you. [00:02:43] Julie Roys: And it’s not very often that I get to meet my podcast guests in person, but I was able to do that when I was in Phoenix enjoyed lunch with you. And I thought we’d be there for maybe an hour. And we were there the whole afternoon talking, just had such a great conversation. So many fascinating things, hearing about your background and also about your insights into Christian nationalism. So so good. And I’m so excited that you’re going to join us for The Restore Conference there in Phoenix in February. That’s going to be awesome to have you there. And I should mention that your book, Disarming Leviathan, is our premium for the month of August. [00:03:18] Julie Roys: So anybody who gives a gift of $30 or more to The Roy’s report will receive a copy of your book. So if you’re interested folks and getting that just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. So Caleb, one of the things that you mentioned when we were having lunch and you mentioned it briefly in your book, but I just thought it was so fascinating, is your background because you actually were a skinhead and now you’ve been a pastor for many years. How does someone go from being a skinhead to being a pastor of a church in Phoenix? [00:03:53] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. That doesn’t seem to be the common track towards lead pastor, but it was that way for me. So I was raised in a politically and religiously conservative home. A lot of what I perceived religion to be about, especially the church we were part of, was about what you’re not supposed to do and being unstained from the world, which meant no drinking, smoking, no rated R movies. [00:04:18] Caleb Campbell: And I remember as a kid,  junior high age, just seeing people’s behavior Monday through Saturday and then hearing the stuff on Sunday and thinking this stuff is not integrated. And so I, for a variety of reasons, just stopped going as much as I could. I’d get dragged every now and again, but it was just giving up on faith and not really interested in it. [00:04:39] Caleb Campbell: And in high school, kind of sophomore, junior year, fell in with a group of neo-Nazi skinheads and found myself in that movement, shaved my head, the whole deal. And I didn’t go to college after high school, but after I had graduated in that season, 18, 19 started asking myself where are all the wealthy, successful retired skinheads? [00:05:01] Caleb Campbell: So the ideology is white supremacy, and the neo-Nazi skinhead argument was white people are the master race and we’re going to protect each other. And we’re going to protect a future for white children. So we’re going to have each other’s back because we’re going to be successful and we’re going to be awesome. [00:05:19] Caleb Campbell: And I remember looking around and be like the life path that my fellow peers, it doesn’t seem like it’s ending with success. And so what was being said and what was actually happening wasn’t integrated. And so I started just disentangling myself, not only from the thinking, but also from the community and was just floating, looking for core needs of safety, belonging and purpose. [00:05:46] Caleb Campbell: And I was a drummer in a band, and we had an ad in the Phoenix New Times classifieds. This is back when you would put stuff on a piece of paper, a newspaper trying to connect with people, the dark ages. Yeah, way back then. And a woman from Desert Springs Bible church was dialing drummers and had called me and said, would you come play the drums at our church? [00:06:09] Caleb Campbell: And so I did. And I remember thinking, I should do good stuff for God. Cause I still had a sense that God existed, and I got in the Rolodex. I got on the rotation. I should say. We don’t do Rolodex anymore. Got on the rotation and called me back a month later, eventually just started playing in one of the bands and a member, a couple in the band started inviting me over to their home, and over the course of about a year, through conversations and they didn’t tell me this, but they were discipling me. I found myself following Jesus and now I am the lead pastor at that church. [00:06:46] Julie Roys: Wow. What a story. And I think there’s so much in your background, that understanding of what led you, that need for belonging and safety, and that relates to our topic today of Christian nationalism. And we’re going to get into that, but also this has really impacted you personally. Talk about the impact this has had on you and your church as well. [00:07:09] Caleb Campbell: Yeah. So I met the Lord at the church I’m serving at about 2001, came on staff in 2006, became the lead pastor in 2015. So I’ve been here for a long time, and I thought I knew what I was getting into. [00:07:22] Caleb Campbell: And in 2015, primary season on into 2016 to the election, I remember thinking, okay, so most of the congregation that I serve is politically con

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/avV0ciCYqtg Ten years ago, Sharon Clements’ world turned upside down. The pastor she trusted abused that trust and lured her into a sexual relationship. But when everything became public, her abuse was labeled an affair. And instead of receiving help, she received shame and rejection. In this edition of The Roys Report, Sharon speaks out—not just about the abuse, but about her road to recovery. The church where her abuse occurred—LexCity Church (formerly Quest Community Church) in Lexington, Kentucky—recently made headlines for another sex abuse scandal. And in the wake of that scandal, LexCity has closed. It’s not often we see such a dramatic consequence to news like this. But then again, this is the second time LexCity has been rocked by scandal. The first time was in 2014 when then-Pastor Pete Hise admitted to an “affair” with Sharon Clements. This not only rocked the church but led to years of confusion and pain for Sharon. It wasn’t until about a year later that Sharon discovered what adult clergy sex abuse (ACSA) is. And suddenly, things began to make sense—and Sharon began to heal. If you’re a victim of ACSA or another type of abuse, you’re going to really be encouraged by Sharon’s story. Guests Sharon Clements Sharon Clements is the Co-Founder and Executive Director of The Way Home Ministries, a non-profit dedicated to helping people recover a life of thriving faith in the aftermath of spiritual abuse. She and her husband, Paul, live in Lexington, KY, along with their two golden retrievers, Sophie & Sadie Grace. Their adult children, Carolyne and Renner, live nearby, and family dinners together are one of their favorite nights of the week. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: Ten years ago, Sharon Clements’ world turned upside down. The pastor she trusted, abused that trust, and lured her into a sexual relationship. But when everything became public, her abuse was labeled an affair. And instead of receiving help, she received shame and rejection. Now she’s speaking out, not just about the abuse, but about her road to recovery. [00:00:27] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And about two weeks ago, I became aware of Sharon’s story. That’s because the church where her abuse occurred, LexCity Church in Lexington, Kentucky, made headlines for another scandal. This time, it wasn’t the senior pastor involved in sexual misconduct, but the executive pastor, Zachary King. [00:00:53] Julie Roys: King is facing six charges related to the alleged rape and sodomy of a minor. And in the wake of the charges against King, LexCity has closed. It’s not often that we see such a dramatic consequence to news like this. But then again, this is the second time that this church has been rocked by scandal. [00:01:11] Julie Roys: The first time was in 2014, when then pastor Pete Hise stepped down after publicly admitting to what was labeled an affair. But as you’ll hear in this podcast, that’s what often happens with Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, or ACSA. And that’s one of the reasons ACSA is so devastating to its victims. But as you’ll hear, healing is possible. [00:01:33] Julie Roys: So if you’re a victim of ACSA or another type of abuse, I think you’ll really be encouraged by Sharon’s story. But before we dive in, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. [00:01:52] Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. [00:02:10] Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. [00:02:32] Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me in a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. [00:02:55] Julie Roys: Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:17] Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Sharon Clements and her husband, Paul. As I mentioned in the open, Sharon is a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse. She’s also the co-founder of THE WAY HOME, a ministry helping people recover their faith in the wake of spiritual abuse. Prior to that, she was the director of programming and worship at Quest Community Church, which rebranded LexCity Church in 2018. And as I previously mentioned, LexCity Church recently ceased operations in the wake of a sexual scandal there involving its executive pastor, Zachary King. So Sharon and Paul, thank you so much for joining me and for your willingness to discuss what I know was a really difficult chapter in your life. [00:03:59] Sharon Clements: Yeah. Thank you, Julie. It’s actually really an honor to be here. It’s not some of my favorite parts of my story, but it is beautiful what Jesus has done in our lives and the idea of getting to share it so that people find hope and get some light in a place in the church that is a little bit shady, a lot shady, but a little bit dark and shadowy. I’m really glad to get to do that [00:04:27] Julie Roys: Again. Thank you for being willing to talk about your journey. And I really do want to emphasize and focus the healing part of your journey and the redemptive part. But to understand that we do need to get context of what happened there when you were at Quest Community Church and what happened with Pete Hise. [00:04:48] Julie Roys: So I appreciate you being willing to discuss that. And I believe we need to back up to 1996. This is when you were at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church there in Lexington. And as I understand it, some really exciting stuff started to happen in the church’s ability to reach the community. So would you discuss what happened and what that was like? [00:05:08] Sharon Clements: Yeah, we had been married about three or four years at that point, and the church decided to have a seeker service along the model of Willow Creek Community Church to try to make church accessible for people who had given up on church. [00:05:29] Sharon Clements: It was a Saturday night service .We dove into helping with that. At first I wasn’t sure about doing that. I was a new mom at the time. But I gave it six months, said, let’s see how this works. And we started to be a part of it and, honestly, we just started seeing people come to Christ. We saw the Lord using our gifts and we were really excited about what we saw God doing there. [00:05:54] Julie Roys: And so what was it about 1999, then, the church decided to plant a new church kind of based on this seeker model and what was happening there, and Pete Hise ended up being the pastor of that church. Describe the first year or two and how that went and how you felt about it as a couple. [00:06:16] Sharon Clements: It’s like you read in the book of Acts where people just would hear and respond. It was that kind of a live place. Somewhat in my life, church had been sometimes tepid, and this was anything but it was exciting. We saw a life change families. It was really irresistible. And after about a year, I was invited to join the staff. [00:06:41] Julie Roys: So you’re on staff as a director of worship and programming. Paul, were you involved as well, I’m guessing, at least in a volunteer capacity? [00:06:49] Paul Clements: I remember the day that we walked around in a gymnasium in our original church, where we put butcher paper pieces up describing the different ministries that you could be a part of, music and drama and technical stuff. And I’m like, I can’t do any of that stuff. But there was one that was the recording ministry. At the time it was the tape ministry. I’m like, I can push record with the best of them. So I sat in the booth for that entire first few years with headphones and just pushing record and duplicating cassette tapes of the services. Now, my involvement over the years has increased from there, but that’s where I started. [00:07:36] Julie Roys: And my understanding is that while all this exciting stuff is happening, there’s also a culture being formed that had some toxicity to it and had some red flags. Would you talk about that culture and how that laid the groundwork for what happened later? [00:07:54] Sharon Clements: Like I said, it was kind of intoxicating to be around. And we were all in, but we were trying to do the work of Jesus, but we were gradually drifting away from the ways of Jesus. We were elevating our pastor. We thought if he preaches then people hear the good news and they’ll be drawn to Jesus. [00:08:15] Sharon Clements: So like that scripture that says, if Jesus is lifted up, all men will be drawn to him. We inserted like, if our pastor is preaching about Jesus, then people will be drawn to him. Like it was, there was an elevation and that was something he encouraged. There was an orbit around him. We were measuring fruit by the numbers, and we were seeing some pretty vibrant growth. [00:08:40] Sharon Clement

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbg The American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who’ve had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do  about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re like, Oh my word. [00:07:19] Julie Roys: But as I mentioned in the open, you and I, not only know each other professionally, but we go to the same church and we go to a house church, which is

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/XKwF1N--a00For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton. But as concerns about Howerton grew, Patrick and Mary found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now, they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called “church refugees” feel. In this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Mary DeMuth joins host Julie Roys to talk about navigating church bewilderment. This is a condition more and more Christians are experiencing today, as scandal and corruption are increasingly seeping into the church. And if you caught the previous TRR podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How much is okay to say, and what is gossip? How do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? These are crucial questions, which Mary—an internationally known author and a repeat speaker at our Restore Conference—admits she is wrestling with. And, as is so characteristic of Mary, she engages these questions with grace, wisdom, and a passion for truth and justice. Sadly, many churches have created a culture where it's not okay to talk about leaving a toxic church. But as Mary explains in this podcast, the church won't get better until we talk about it. Believers must begin to evaluate and process the toxicity in churches—and how we can truly become the Body of Christ. Mary has recently developed a Church Hurt Checklist to help people understand their situation and begin to process and articulate it. Download it free at marydemuth.com/churchhurt Guests Mary DeMuth Mary DeMuth is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over 40 books, fiction and nonfiction, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 30+ years and is mom to three adult children. Learn more at MaryDeMuth.com. Show Transcript Julie Roys: For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as leaders at a megachurch in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But as concerns about the current pastor grew, they found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called church refugees feel. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today, Mary DeMuth joins me to talk about navigating church bewilderment. Sadly, this is an issue many Christians are dealing with, as abuse, scandal, and corruption increasingly seem to be seeping into the church. Julie Roys: And if you caught our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area, where Josh Howerton is Pastor. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. And if you missed our prior podcast, it was a real eye-opener and I encourage you to go back and listen to that. Julie Roys: Today’s podcast is a sequel to my podcast with Amanda, but rather than exposing the issues at Lakepointe today, Mary is going to be discussing the aftermath of leaving. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How do you know how much is okay to say? And what is gossip? And how do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? Julie Roys: These are crucial questions and ones that I know many of you are dealing with today. And so I’m so looking forward to diving into this topic with Mary DeMuth. But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and quality. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Christian author and podcaster, Mary DeMuth, and many of Mary from her excellent books like We Too: Discussing the Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Church, and also her memoir, Thin Places. Mary also was a guest speaker at our last Restore Conference in 2022, and she’ll be speaking again at our Restore Conference in Phoenix in February in 2025. So we’re super looking forward to that. Julie Roys: But she joins me now to talk about something that’s been a very painful process for both her and Patrick, and that is leaving her church of 23 years, Lakepointe Church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So Mary, Thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know has been a really difficult journey. Mary DeMuth: Thanks. I certainly prayed about this conversation and what I’ve noticed in this space is that a lot of people in the middle of it. are not articulating how they’re feeling because there’s this general pressure from churches that you leave that you aren’t supposed to say anything. And I think there’s a difference between, and we’ll talk about this, I’m sure, throughout this episode, but there’s a difference between leaving quietly and running around gossiping about things. Certainly, those are two different things. Mary DeMuth: But I think what we’ve done is we’ve created a culture of silence; you can’t talk about it and literally we won’t get better unless we do talk about it. So that’s one reason why I am having this conversation today, because this is not a completed story. This is a messy story. I’m in the middle of it. Mary DeMuth: I am heartbroken, and I don’t have all the answers. But I wanted to give word to those of you that may be in that same space, that may be hurting and don’t have words to say about it. And maybe I can articulate some of those things for you. Julie Roys: And I so appreciate that. I find that people often are willing to talk about experiences years after the fact, when they’ve worked it all out and they can tie it all up in a neat bow and we can all go, Oh, that’s so nice. And here’s three ways that you can apply this message. But I knew you were going through a really painful thing that it was messy. You’ve been tweeting about it, or I should say posting on X. Julie Roys: You’ve been very open and honest with your pain. And I really appreciate that. And I love the topic. You actually gave me the title for this, about navigating church bewilderment. And I love that word bewilderment because I feel like it really captures the confusion, the real disillusionment, and then the grief and the pain. Julie Roys: All of these things bound up in one. And so we’re going to get to all that and unpack all of that. But I think to understand the depth of it for you and for Patrick, first I have to understand how deeply vested you were in this church. So talk about what this church has meant to you over more than two decades and the roles that you played in it and the community that you had. Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we’ve been there for 23 years, and we immediately started serving the moment we landed there. And we also were the first non-IMB, it was an SBC church at the time, and we were the first non-IMB missionaries to be sent out from Lakepointe. Julie Roys: Define IMB for those who . Mary DeMuth: Yes. International mission board. So typically SBC churches send, they don’t really send their own missionaries. They sponsor IMB because all the money comes out of the SBC into this fund for the International Mission Board. We didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be actually supported because we believed that people who paid prayed. And so we were not IMB, but Lakepointe sent us out. So we were church planters in the South of France for a couple of years. And honestly the leadership there at our church, even though we weren’t going through our church, they were the ones that helped us through a really untenable situation. And our loyalty to that church was because they put us back together when we got back from the field.. Mary DeMuth: So much pouring in and so much love. And so we have been a life group leader for 20 of the 23 years. The only three years we weren’t was when we were in France, planting a church. And then I have run a couple of conferences, intere

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ZOOhWWj5AqIAccording to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church—Josh Howerton’s prominent megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Now a longtime volunteer leader at Lakepointe, who recently left the church with her family, is speaking out. Joining host Julie Roys on this edition of The Roys Report is Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who became a Christian at Lakepointe Church under former Senior Pastor Steve Stroope. She also served as a leader in both the marriage ministry and women’s ministry, which boomed during her years there. But in 2019, Stroope retired, and young pastor Josh Howerton was hired to replace him. According to Amanda, that’s when a major transformation occurred. Ministries were canceled as the church sought to become more centralized and on-brand. Emails from Amanda to those in her ministry were canceled, and they were replaced by communications from central leadership. Soon, outsiders began posting about Howerton’s plagiarized sermons. His behavior online, and in sermons, led to allegations of misogyny. Then, Howerton told a joke that some said promoted marital rape. Howerton apologized for the joke, but as TRR reported, he apparently plagiarized his apology! Most recently, the church, in an effort to gain city approval for a traffic light, urged people in the church to sign up to drive repeatedly through an intersection to manipulate the findings of a traffic study. All these events, plus interactions Amanda witnessed personally, made her and her husband feel like they no longer could attend the church. Now, she’s speaking out to warn others. After 11 years doing life and ministry at Lakepointe, it wasn’t easy or simple for Amanda and her husband to exit. Her eye-opening account covers what led them to that point—plus insights on church celebrity culture, top-down leadership, and spiritual abuse that are widely applicable. Guests Amanda Cunningham Amanda Cunningham is a former model/actress who left her career behind when she became a mom. Subsequently, she spun into an identity crisis and was later stunned to find her true identity in Christ. Amanda is a writer, speaker, wife of a fire Deputy Chief, and mother of two girls. Connect with Amanda on Facebook. Show Transcript Julie Roys: According to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church, Josh Howerton’s prominent mega church in the Dallas Fort Worth area. One of those who have left, a longtime volunteer leader at the church, joins me today to tell her story. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today I’ll be speaking with Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who became a Christian at Lakepointe Church. That was more than a decade ago when Steve Stroop pastored the church. But in 2019, Stroop retired, and young pastor Josh Howerton was hired to replace him. According to Amanda, that’s when a major transformation occurred. Julie Roys: Ministries were cancelled as the church sought to become more centralized and on brand. Emails from Amanda to those in her ministry were cancelled, and they were replaced by communications from central leadership. Then outsiders began posting about Howerton’s plagiarized sermons. His behavior online and in sermons led to allegations of misogyny. Julie Roys: And then Howerton told a joke that some online said promoted marital rape. Howerton apologized for the joke, but as The Roy’s Report reported, he apparently plagiarized his apology. Lastly, the church, in an effort to gain city approval for a traffic light, urged people in the church to sign up to repeatedly drive through an intersection to manipulate the findings. Julie Roys: All these events, plus interactions Amanda witnessed personally, caused her family to leave the church. And now, she’s speaking out to warn others. We’ll hear Amanda’s eye-opening account in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable. So join me in a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and confidence. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM Julie Roys:  Again, joining me is Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who about 11 years ago became a Christian at a church in the Dallas Fort Worth area called Lakepointe. But over the years, it’s changed dramatically under its new leader, Josh Howerton. So Amanda joins me now to talk about, sort of from an insider’s view, what’s been happening at that church and also her family’s painful decision to decide to leave that church. So Amanda, thank you so much for joining me and being willing to talk about something that I know has been really difficult for you. Amanda Cunningham: Thank you for the opportunity to work it out with other people who will listen and Christians who understand a heart for wanting a reconciled, peaceful, loving church to be a great witness to the world. So thank you so much for having me. Julie Roys: And I know your story is unique to you. And yet at the same time, there are a lot of people listening who have had to leave their church for one reason or another. And they know what that process is like. There’s some who I’m guessing are listening right now and trying to figure out, is the stuff that I’m seeing at my church, is it serious enough to leave? Is it not? And so I think this is going to be a really beneficial podcast for a lot of folks. Julie Roys: But before we talk about that, let’s talk about sort of your background and why you even came to this church. My understanding is 11 years ago, you weren’t a believer, and you really weren’t looking to go to church. Why did you end up showing up at Lakepointe? Amanda Cunningham: It’s a very long story, but what ended up happening, I had visited church when I was younger. It never really stuck. I didn’t fall in love with the Lord. I didn’t understand it. And when I became a mom, just seeing the miracle of life through my daughter’s birth. And as they grew, I thought there’s something to this God. And we ended up moving to a new town when they were one in three. My husband’s a firefighter and a lot of his firefighter friends invited us to Lakepointe. Amanda Cunningham: And immediately I thought I don’t want to go to a mega church, televangelist; I had all these outside opinions. And it took me a little while to even wrap my mind around visiting a church like that, and I really started to feel convicted with this thought before I even knew what that meant, that if my husband wants to try a church, I should try whatever church it is. Amanda Cunningham: So we started going. And I am his third wife. He’s my second husband. We were obviously terrible at marriage because we didn’t know God’s design for it. We weren’t living by it. But as soon as we started attending, we were completely consumers, grateful to have child-care, grateful for the coffee and the music and the movie seats. Amanda Cunningham: We were soaking it all up. But they started preaching a marriage series on fixing your marriage. And my husband and I kind of looked at each other I think God’s talking to us? Is that a thing? And the reason why they were doing a marriage series was to launch a marriage ministry. Amanda Cunningham: So my husband and I just felt seeing okay, we really do need to figure out how to make our marriage better. We were in a really tough place and ended up attending the marriage ministry that Lakepointe launched called Re-Engage. Amanda Cunningham: And it was founded by Watermark, and he didn’t want to go .He ended up going and week four, we have this huge forgiveness lesson. And I realized how much I needed forgiveness for. just all my sin. And I really just gave it up to the Lord. I had no idea what I was doing. I just started telling people what happened in this conversation that my husband said he believed again. And that I said, just God, take my whole life. I’m making a mess of it. People were like, Oh, you gave your life to Christ? What does that mean? Okay. I’m just learning all this language and I had heard you need to get baptized right away. So I got baptized. Amanda Cunningham: And as I come out of the baptistry, our church is obviously very large. And so the baptisms are put on the big screen. And so I was baptized during service, and I come out of the baptistry and all my friends who I made in Re-Engage were like, why didn’t

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/fFImYJWb2XU Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president—something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy says she could not support. Then, she was ghosted. In this edition of The Roys Report, Nancy French, a New York Times bestselling author and Christian conservative, recounts how she’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why, as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had. And she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. Nancy French and her husband have been at the center of the major upheaval our nation has faced—as a new political paradigm invaded the church pews. As an abuse survivor and woman of conviction, Nancy courageously shares her story that has insights for every listener. Guests Nancy French Nancy French has collaborated on multiple books for celebrities - five of which made the New York Times best seller list. She has conducted a multi-year journalistic investigation, written commentary, and published for the nation’s most prominent newspapers and magazines. She has written several books under her own name and tells her own story in Ghosted: An American Story. She lives in Franklin, Tennessee with her husband – journalist David French – and family. Learn more at NancyFrench.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, NANCY FRENCH Julie Roys  00:04 Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president; something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy couldn’t support. Then she was ghosted. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Nancy French, a New York Times best-selling author, a Christian and a conservative who’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had, and she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. Nancy writes about all of this in her book Ghosted, which we’re offering this month to anyone who gives a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report. And if you’d like to do that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells us about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. I’m so excited to share both the book and this podcast with you. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture. But more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by his word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well focusing on the right use of power in our churches, so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of character. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again joining me is New York Times best-selling author Nancy French. As a ghostwriter, she’s written for a variety of people, from well-known politicians to celebrities. She’s also investigated and exposed widespread sexual and spiritual abuse at Kanakuk camp, America’s largest Christian camp, and her latest book Ghosted, tells her remarkable story of growing up in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, marrying David French, a New York Times opinion columnist, becoming a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. And then when she and her husband opposed Trump, getting kicked out by their own tribe and then becoming the target of white nationalists and Trump supporters. So Nancy, welcome, and it’s just such a privilege to have you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:08 Thanks for having me on. This is fun.   Julie Roys  04:11 And I know that this is not the best time for you to be doing a book tour. You’ve been very public about your struggle with cancer. And I know you’re going through chemo. And I just feel honored that you’d be willing to take the time in the middle of something like that to talk about this. So thank you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:27 Yeah, no, thank you so much. Yes, I think I’ve done pretty well with all the interviews, even though I’m high as a kite on prednisone. And I haven’t said too many things that I maybe regretted later. But I’m very thankful to be able to have a book out. It just so happens, it’s in the middle of chemo. So this is gonna get real.   Julie Roys  04:45 Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I was surprised when I read your book. I mean, you and David are kind of like this powerhouse couple. And yet, you had very humble beginnings. In fact, your grandparents lived in the mountains of Appalachia; you lived in the foothills because your parents moved. But again, they were interesting sort of rough and tumble group of people. In fact, your dad used to joke that your family was famous or maybe infamous is a better word. Tell us a little bit about that and the background of your family.   NANCY FRENCH  05:19 Yeah, we get accused a lot of being like Washington, DC cocktail party elites or whatever. I don’t even go to Washington DC. I am from Tennessee. My parents are from Montego mountain. My grandfather was a coal miner. My dad did not graduate from high school. He got his GED. And he later in his 50s went back to college. But  he went to college, he got a degree and amazing man. But yeah, from self-described hillbillies, and all that entails. And yeah, I wanted to sort of describe my upbringing, just so that people could understand that many times people will say, Well, you just don’t understand what true Americans think or you don’t understand what true Tennesseans think. And I always sort of in my mind laugh at that because I’m like, you can’t out Tennessee me. You can be an American and a real Tennessean and hold the beliefs that I hold, you know, so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to describe that upbringing. I love my family. They’re amazing. They’re fierce. And I think some of that ferocity has been passed on to me and I just I love my hillbilly family.   Julie Roys  06:32 And your part Cherokee Indian too?   NANCY FRENCH  06:35 Yeah, we have a lot of Indian blood. So my grandmother was I think was 1/4. And that was Cherokee. And then my grandfather also had a different type of Montana Indian in him, which is interesting. But yeah, it was all mixed together.   Julie Roys  06:52 So your dad broke from your family, moved to the foothills. Mayfield, Kentucky, which I know where that’s at. My dad actually lives near there now. But Mayfield, Kentucky, then eventually to Tennessee. Talk about the culture of the home that you grew up in, but also the town and sort of rural Tennessee and what that was like.   NANCY FRENCH  07:16 So Paris, Tennessee, has a 16-foot-tall Eiffel Tower,   Julie Roys  07:22 An Eiffel Tower.   NANCY FRENCH  07:25 There’s a huge battle between Paris, Texas and Paris, Tennessee over this Eiffel Tower business. But Paris, Tennessee is an amazing place. I grew up near the lake, Kentucky lake. We have a 60-foot Eiffel Tower. It’s just a great place to grow up very rural. We did not necessarily value education in the way that you would think a school might. For example, in seventh grade, I did not have science class, but instead they decided because none of us were going to go to college, to teach us about guns and so we had hunter safety classes and that culminated in skeet shooting contest. Which, I don’t like to brag, I don’t like to but sometimes you got to. I was the best shot in my seventh-grade class. Which is interesting and funny, but that’s how I grew up; just complete redneck hillbilly sort of existence and I loved it. Like I love Paris, Tennessee. I love Mont

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ok7qRXGZYro For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down. And on this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear her story. Joining host Julie Roys is Christa Brown, an abuse survivor who overcame the odds in pursuit of justice. As a 16-year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her never to speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belonged to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence—and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing. But instead, they attacked her. That began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention—and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. She recounts it all in detail in her just released memoir, Baptistland. Christa found her voice, rising above her past trauma to become a leading voice in the national and global abuse survivor community. She speaks with unrelenting honesty about the patterns of abuse in evangelical churches—and the necessary steps to bring reform. Guests Christa Brown Named as one of the "top 10 religion newsmakers" of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. She is the author of Baptistland and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang. Christa, who is retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma, lives with her husband in Colorado. Show Transcript SPEAKERS CHRISTA BROWN, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down and on this podcast, you’ll hear her story. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Christa Brown, someone who’s become a sort of legend in the abuse survivor community. As a 16- year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her to never speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belongs to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing, but instead, they attacked her. And that began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. Joining me is Christa Brown, someone who for decades fought to expose sex abuse and cover up within the Southern Baptist Convention. She has been dubbed the mother of all abuse bloggers, and also is named by the Religion News Association as one of the top 10 religion newsmakers of 2022. She’s also a retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma. So Christa, welcome. It is such a privilege to have you on this podcast.   CHRISTA BROWN  03:22 Thank you, Julie, I really appreciate it. I’m so glad to be with you.   Julie Roys  03:26 And you’re kind of like a legend. I don’t know if you recognize this, but you have been at this a very, very long time and the persistence that you have had to expose what’s been going on within the Southern Baptist Convention, it didn’t just happen to you, it happened to so so many women and men who have been victims. And so just as somebody who’s been in this space for a really long time, not nearly as long as you, I just really appreciate your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  04:16 Thanks. And of course, this is something that is still continuing to happen too.   Julie Roys  04:21 That’s true. So I just finished your book, Baptistland, and really emotionally, still wrestling to come to terms  with everything I read. I think there were several things that really struck me from your book. Of course, the horror of the sex abuse that you had at the hands of your own youth pastor, somebody that you trusted, and the spiritual abuse involved in that was just absolutely horrific. But I think too, the abuse within your own family and the psychological and emotional abuse that was there and kind of how that conditioned you for the abuse and to kind of keep secrets. And so it kind of contributed to everything that happened. But I think lastly, was your resiliency, which is amazing in the face of what you encountered, your resiliency. And I don’t know how you did that. I mean, what do you attribute the resiliency that you’ve had to overcome so many hurdles in your life?   CHRISTA BROWN  05:26 I don’t know. In part, I think I’m a little stubborn by nature. I think that is there. In part, I think I had the enormous good fortune to encounter a wonderful husband and wonderful spouse, who has been nothing but supportive. And I think, when someone has that kind of support in their life, I mean, that came, of course, later as an adult, but that too, of course, has just been an enormous source of stability for me. So yeah, I’ve had those things. And in that sense, I’ve been very, very fortunate.   Julie Roys  06:10 If someone has just even one person in their life that’s advocating for them, that’s behind them, it makes a huge difference. And I know my spouse has been with me 100% in the work I’ve done as well. And I credit him for a lot of what I’ve been able to do as well. So I can relate to that.   CHRISTA BROWN  06:28 Yeah. I mean, he’s a behind-the-scenes kind of guy. No one knows my husband, but he is very much there for me.   Julie Roys  06:38  You divide your memoir into four different deaths, as you call them. And of course, there’s an element of resurrection and all of that, too. But your deaths start, the very first death that you write about is the abuse that you suffered by, again, your own youth pastor. But as I mentioned, there was some dysfunction in your own home, that kind of conditioned you to be able to have this abuse, and maybe to keep it quiet. Would you talk a little bit about that, the home situation that conditioned you to stay quiet about the abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  07:19 Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the sort of home that it’s like, we all pretend we’re happy. What happened didn’t happen. And when someone blows up and throws plates across the wall, we clean it up, and we act like nothing ever happened. When my father explodes, we all just go on. My father had serious PTSD problems, but back then, we would not have even had that acronym PTSD, we didn’t know what to call it. We just all, as with many families across America, when war veterans come home, we all just do the best we can. But that very dynamic of never talking about it, and just always putting you in the background and moving on, conditioned me to keep quiet and to not talk about things in the family. We did not talk about the family with outsiders. That was for sure. And so all of that, I think is part of what conditioned me. Then when I was abused by the pastor, why would I talk about it? I had no experience in talking about anything troubling in my life, None. What was normal was never to talk about things. And I hope people will see that because of course, that’s one of the very common questions that people often ask, Well, why didn’t you tell someone sooner? Why didn’t you talk about it? I hope people will see in my book, the only rational question is, why would she have ever talked about it? And then, of course, the fact that I did try with a couple people and that only made things worse.   Julie Roys  09:08 Yeah. And there was also this element of spiritual abuse, which honestly, when I was reading your book, and I’ve heard a lot of spiritual abuse, but I would say this was almost just so wicked, because in your case, you were so trusting, you had such a childlike faith in God. And he just completely exploited that. Would you talk about the spiritual abuse and how that how that really gave him power over you?   CHRISTA BROWN  09:40 Oh, it gave him enormous power. And I hope people will see that the enormous power that earnest that a person’s faith can hold when it is weaponized against them, because that is what gave him power. I mean, I think there are many people who would wish to believe that this happens to kids who are in some way, oh, morally lacks or they want to blame the kid for some reason, that the reality is what made me vulnerable? What made me a target? What made me easy prey? was the very fact that I love God so much. My faith was earnest and pure and that is precisely what was weaponized against me literally. I was raised from toddlerhood to believe that you trust these men who carry the voice of God, that they are men and God. In the framework I held in my mind at that time., there was no other possibility other than to obey.   Julie Roys  11:00 You know, it’s interesting, because I just had a conversation with my daughter this morning. And I feel kind of bad sometimes because of the work that I’m in, that they’re exposed to the evil of it. But at the same time, I realized this morning, as we were talking about some things, she knows to be skeptical, that trust

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tbf5FsOm0o Research shows more than 95% of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, these women are not believed and shamed. According to author Ryan George, it’s all part of a propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys continues her eye-opening dialogue with Ryan George, the son of an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) pastor. In part one, Ryan described the physical abuse he suffered from his dad. Now Ryan exposes the harmful rhetoric in IFB churches from his insider perspective and comments on shocking examples of IFB misogyny. This podcast includes clips from IFB pastors who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. Also included in this podcast is Ryan’s description of how IFB pastors promote violence, especially when it’s directed towards those seen as political foes. This is a no-holds-barred podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB church movement, which Ryan asserts is a cult. It also includes a clip from John MacArthur in which the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like Ryan’s IFB pastor dad. However, this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the abuse and deception in his father’s IFB church and overcame fear. Guests Ryan George Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life, Word on the Street, and his latest book, Hurt and Healed by the Church. He’s the blogger behind Explorience.org, where he tells stories at the intersection of physical adventures and spiritual discoveries on all seven continents. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a parachurch outdoor Bible study and prayer group in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie. Show Transcript SPEAKERS PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD, JOHN MACARTHUR, RYAN GEORGE, Julie Roys, JACK HYLES Julie Roys  00:00 The following podcast contains clips from some pastors in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, or IFB, who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. We chose these clips to illustrate the systemic problems in IFB churches. But we realize these clips are hard to hear, so please take care as you listen.  For more background on these and other stories please visit JulieRoys.com. Research shows that more than 95-percent of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, especially IFB churches, these women are disbelieved and shamed. According to Ryan George, it’s all part of the IFB propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And in part two of an eye-opening podcast with Ryan George—the son of an IFB pastor—Ryan exposes the misogynist propaganda in IFB churches. And in this podcast, you’ll hear some shocking examples of this misogyny. But as Ryan explains, there’s also promotion of violence within IFB churches, especially when it’s directed towards those seen as political foes. This is no-holds-barred, stunning podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB Church—a group Ryan confidently asserts is a cult. You’ll also hear a clip from John MacArthur, where the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like an IFB pastor. But this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the IFB and overcame fear. I love Ryan’s story—and I think you will too. We’ll get to that in a minute. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington . . . Well again, here’s part 2 of my podcast with Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed in the Church. . . So there’s a whole section of your book that deals with propaganda. And you know, as a journalist, as somebody who’s in media, I mean, that’s something that always sort of piques my curiosity when I see something like that, but it’s really this idea of how the IFB was able to sell certain ideas to you. And extra biblical ideas that really weren’t necessarily in Scripture. And one of them that was just so heartbreaking to me because I work with female victims all the time of sexual abuse, and was that this idea, you actually heard this in college? Just stunning to me, that a woman if she’s raped, she would only get pregnant if she’s somehow enjoying it. And so it was kind of her fault if she gets pregnant. I mean, just despicable. absolutely shocking that anyone would say that. Yeah, just absolutely despicable. And, you know, I’m very pro-life in my convictions, but the thought that somebody would try to treat a rape victim who got pregnant that way is just heartbreaking, heartbreaking. But we know, these really misogynist ideas are woven into so many of these fundamentalist churches. And you mentioned in your book, that Jack Hyles, who if you don’t know Jack Hyles was really a main figure within the IFB movement. He had this church in Hammond, Indiana, First Baptist of Hammond, I think, huge mega church. I think at one point, they said they had like 40,000 people coming. I know he would bus people. RYAN GEORGE  01:42 He had 86 buses at the peak of their ministry, running a bus route. I mean, that’s a big metro area city bus ministry. Julie Roys  01:49 Yeah, Absolutely, absolutely huge. Anyway, you had this clip, and it was so awful, I like had to look it up in your footnotes and be like, is this online? And so the journalist in me, like has to find it, right. So actually I was able to do it, I was able to find this clip. And just so people realize, I also looked up, like what was the context? Because he says, who slew all of these? when he’s speaking and really what he’s talking about, I looked up that phrase, it’s actually from II Kings 10, and it refers to Jehu, who is basically meeting out God’s judgment to the wicked king Ahab, and also Jezabell two of the most wicked kings Israel ever had. And there are actually, you know, these men of the city, who slew who slay the 70 sons of Ahab. And it’s a pretty graphic description in the Old Testament where they actually bring the heads of all of these sons, and they put them at the gate. And it’s like the judgment of God being meted out in just, you know, a horrific way. But then again, what Jezebel and Ahab did during their reign was pretty horrific as well. But Jehu comes and he looks, you know, in front of the people, he’s looking at this this pile, and he says, who slew all of these? And so in this clip, Hyles is actually likening these wicked men who were beheaded, to the people he’s describing, and it’s absolutely breathtaking, because these people are women, who, God forbid, didn’t dress in the way that he thinks is appropriate. So take a listen. JACK HYLES  03:47 Who slew all of the women in shorts? Who slew all of these poor kids that are girls pregnant before they married? caused the boys to get so stirred up passionately that they rape a girl. Brother, you listen to me. For every single man that goes to prison for rape, you ought to be right beside him, a half-naked girl in the next cell. Who slew all these people on beaches? Who slew all these churches to have mixed swimming parties? Julie Roys  04:31 Unbelievable. RYAN GEORGE  04:32 And if you notice in the background of any video, or background of that video, it’s all women except for one guy and they’re smiling. Julie Roys  04:41 Some are some are not. I mean, some are smiling. Some are not. And I just know you know from reading your book, and from the research that I’ve done, I mean, there’s a lot of sexual abuse going on behind the scenes. I just have to wonder how many of these women are standing there hearing this, and they’ve been sexually abused, and now they’re hearing, it’s your fault that this happened to you. Which, interestingly, Jack Hyles’ son, David, he’s been accused by several women of raping them. In fact, I did a podcast about four years ago with a woman who claimed she was raped by Jack Hyles son David Hyles. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes. That’s I mean, if you want to explore this a little bit more that was a really powerful podcast. Amazing woman what she’s been through., RYAN GEORGE  05:36 Oh, yes. Julie Roys  05:38 But also, there’s the son-in-law of Jack Hyles, who, you know, he’s been convicted of taking what a 16-year-old across state lines and raping her. Interestingly, when he was caught in his crime, he did eventually admit, I guess that  he had raped her. But then he blamed it on the teen’s aggressiveness, on her aggressiveness. I mean, this is so just baked into the whip and woof of this culture, that it’s the woman’s fault. And you might think, well, you know, Jack Hyles, died in 2001. So this is like the IFB of many decades ago. And, unfortunately, it’s not. In fact, I found a clip, and this was just like, last month on the internet, and it was a recording that it had been from, I think, August of last year, last September, but it finally made its round. Yeah. On the internet. And it was of a pastor in North Carolina, Pastor Bobby Leonard, at this Bible Baptist Tabernacle in Monroe, North Carolina. And this, I mean, every bit as awful as what you just heard from Jack Hyles. Let me play this because, again, this happened within the past year. PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD  07:01 I used to say this. I haven’t said this a long time. You ready? I said, if you dress like that, and you get raped, and I’m on the jury, he’s will go free. You don’t like it, do you? I’m right though. I’m right. Because a man’s a man. Julie Roys  07:22 Hhmm. A man’s a man. RYAN GEORGE  07:25 We define manhood very differently. Julie Roys  07:27 Yeah, right. I mean, that was unbelievable. And I pointed out and I think I put a Tweet out there saying or a post on X, I guess I have to say, that, yeah, he’s a man. He’s not an animal. And one of the features of a man is he’s able to exercise self-control.

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JS6dZodsfA The church should be a place of healing and comfort. But for far too many, it’s a place of abuse and harm. As a child, Ryan George was profoundly hurt in a fundamentalist church, pastored by his abusive father. But years later, Ryan found a loving and gracious church. And through that church, he experienced transformation and healing. In this edition of The Roys Report, Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed by the Church, exposes both the worst and the best that the church can be. He vulnerably shares how his father preached love and forgiveness yet told Ryan he was going to hell and beat Ryan for the smallest transgressions. Then, years later, Ryan discovered a horrible secret—that his father had also sexually molested girls. These left deep wounds in Ryan, and it profoundly distorted his view of God and the church. But then Ryan took a chance and he decided to break from his fundamentalist background. He began attending a church that was nothing like the churches he knew before. Ryan shares what he had to release—and hold on to—in this dramatic opening of our two-part podcast.  Ryan’s story is deeply moving. And his honesty about what he’s faced and learned along the way provides insights for anyone who’s been hurt by the church and is seeking healing. Guests Ryan George Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life, Word on the Street, and his latest book, Hurt and Healed by the Church. He’s the blogger behind Explorience.org, where he tells stories at the intersection of physical adventures and spiritual discoveries on all seven continents. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a parachurch outdoor Bible study and prayer group in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdqZj2_gHA Can a church that’s had a history of being toxic transform its culture and become truly healthy? Or, are churches like this doomed to repeat their history, despite efforts to change? This edition of The Roys Report features a talk from our recent Restore Conference by Laura Barringer. Laura and her father, theologian Scot McKnight, co-authored two best-selling books on identifying toxic church cultures and reforming them. Their first book, A Church Called Tov, identifies how many church cultures are failing in their mission to glorify God and be truly “tov”—the Hebrew word for good—and instead are harming people. Laura and Scot’s second book, titled Pivot, deals with transformation. Can church structures, policies, and even relationships that were once oppressive turn into something tov, or good? This was the topic of Laura’s talk at Restore in which she shared details and compelling stories of churches who have successfully made this change. Doing so is not easy, Laura says, but it’s worth it. With more and more churches and ministries being exposed as abusive or corrupt, this topic is extremely relevant. Sometimes, after a bad leader is removed, churches want to change but don’t know how. This talk helps chart the way. Guests Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children’s version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher’s guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/uaYHJrgdwhAWhat does it take to disqualify someone from ministry? An affair? Spiritual abuse? Sexual abuse? Abuse of power? Or, as some have claimed, can just about anyone be restored to ministry because “God is gracious” and “His call is irrevocable”? This edition of The Roys Report takes a deep dive into the Scriptures—particularly, those specific verses used to justify restoring pastors to ministry who have fallen in egregious ways. Author and Bible teacher Ron Cantor joins host Julie Roys for this engaging discussion. Partly because of confusion around the “irrevocable” call to ministry, the evangelical church is often like a game of “whack-a-wolf.” A pastor will be exposed as a fraud or abuser in one location. Then he’ll just go underground for a couple of years and relaunch somewhere else. That’s why it’s critical to address common errors of theology and interpretation—including how to confront a sinning leader. In what situations do the principles of Matthew 18 apply, and how is it often misapplied? And what does the Apostle Paul mean by “being above reproach”? This is such a relevant discussion now, given what’s happening with Mike Bickle, the founder of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. (Full coverage here.) Bickle’s alleged sexual abuse of multiple women includes accounts from girls as young as 14- and 15-years old. Yet some are suggesting that Bickle can still be restored. Is that really what the Bible instructs? Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus who has authored ten books, engages the arguments heard often in evangelical circles—citing Scripture and context as he provides food for thought. Guests Ron Cantor Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus, is the Israeli director of God TV. He is the author of ten books and host of two TV shows, Out of Zion and Get Real. He is president of Shelanu TV, the only 24/7, Hebrew language TV channel sharing the message of Jesus. Ron and his wife, Elena, also direct the outreach arm of Shelanu, Messiah's Mandate International, which supports pastors in Israel, Holocaust survivors, and leaders in training. The Cantors live in Tel Aviv, Israel. Learn more at RonCantor.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSKRIS VALLOTTON, RICK JOYNER, Julie Roys, STEPHEN STRANG, RON CANTOR Julie Roys  00:04 What does it take to disqualify someone from ministry? An affair, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, abuse of power, or as some have claimed, can just about anyone be restored to ministry because God is gracious, and his call is irrevocable? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to take a deep dive into the scriptures used to justify restoring pastors to ministry who have fallen in some of the most egregious ways. We’re also going to take a look at how to confront a sinning elder. Does Matthew 18, which tells believers to first go to someone one-on-one with an offense apply to these situations? Or is this a misapplication of the passage? We’ll also look at the qualifications of an elder and we’ll explore, for example, what does it mean to be above reproach? Joining me for this discussion is Ron Cantor, an author and teacher and president of Shelanu TV. This is such a relevant discussion now given what’s happening with Mike Bickle, the founder of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. Despite Bickle’s alleged sexual abuse of multiple women, including some as young as 14 and 15 years old. Some are suggesting that Bickle can still be restored to ministry. What do you think? But it’s not just Mike Bickle. I’ve often said it’s like whack-a-wolf in the evangelical community. A pastor will be exposed as a fraud or abuser in one location, and then he’ll just go underground for a couple of years and then relaunch somewhere else. Is that really God’s will? And is that really what the Bible instructs? I can’t wait to dive into these topics with Ron. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again, joining me is Ron Cantor, a Jewish believer in Jesus and the host of two TV programs, Out of Zion and Get Real. He’s also the author of 10 books. And he’s the president of Shelanu TV,  the only 24/7 Hebrew language TV channel, sharing the message of Jesus. So Ron, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you.   RON CANTOR  03:08 Thank you, Julie. It’s great to be here.   Julie Roys  03:11 And I am so excited to be recording this podcast because I’m getting really frustrated, to be honest, with hearing a lot of people twist scriptures to say something that I don’t think they say at all. And I’m excited to get into that. And I’m really grateful for you because you’ve been very outspoken on social media. This is my introduction to you is on Twitter. Oh, I’m sorry, X now. But I’ve really appreciated that. So thank you for speaking so boldly.   RON CANTOR  03:38 Well, and thank you because you know, something I’ve said for a long time is that, when we as elders in the body don’t do our job, the Lord will use the media to expose things. And I believe that God has used you to push some things to the forefront. So bless you.   Julie Roys  03:55 Oh, well, thanks for saying that. And we usually are the last resort. We are the ones they come to after they’ve exhausted the elders in their church and all of the leaders that a victim or a whistleblower can go to. And sadly, you’re right, they often must come to us. And so that’s why we’re here. I would love I’ve said this before, I would love to be completely unnecessary in the body of Christ and for things to be handled in the church. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon. But my prayer is that that will change as we begin doing more things like we’re doing today. So we will see. You’ve served in context like all around the world, like in Rockville, Maryland, which I know where that is. My sister lives in Maryland. I used to live in Pennsylvania. So you lead a messianic congregation there. You’ve been in the Ukraine. You’ve been a pastor of a congregation there in Jerusalem, and now you’re serving with God TV and Shelanu and doing you know, just amazing ministry. But when it comes to this topic of pastors who are in persistent sin or you know, significant fall, it’s been my experience that we don’t deal with this very well within the church. But I’m curious, in your experience, you know, over several decades of ministry, how have you seen the church respond? And has it been as awful as a lot of my reporting shows it is doing? Or have you seen some really, really positive examples of dealing with it?   RON CANTOR  05:26 Well, I’ll start with the negative and I’ll go to the positive, I think in the larger charismatic world, before I was even born, the charismatic movement started in the 60s. And, you know, we were, or they were, I should say, I wasn’t alive, they were kicked out or not received in the mainline denominational world where there were structures of accountability. Where, you know, you had superintendents, and you didn’t have one pastor with all of the power. So that kind of push the charismatic world out. You know, I don’t know if it’s the majority, but certainly a large number of charismatic churches are completely independent. And often they have one leader, what I’ll call the royal pastor model. He’s a charismatic figure, probably a very good communicator, good Bible teacher. And, you know, often the elders who surround him are Yes-men or Yes-women. And they don’t really have that level of accountability. And not just that, they build up such an aura around their personality and their calling, that when they do fall into moral failure, well, God forbid that I stop preaching, because think of the people that we won’t reach. Of course, my response is, yes, that’s what you should have thought of before you fell into it to adultery. You know, Samson should have thought about that before he got his eyes poked out. There is, we’ll get into later. But there is something called being disqualified. Now, I am very fortunate that when I graduated Bible school, I moved to Rockville, Maryland, I joined a congregation there called Beth Messiah. And they were in the beginnings of forming a network of Messianic Jewish leaders that believe in what we call covenant relationships. So I’m part of a network of if I include America, 40 congregations, and some of the men in that network are my closest friends. And they hold me accountable. And we’ve had a very low number of moral failures. And we have ways of dealing with it if it does happen. I don’t know where I would be, if I was brought up in a different model, where it was accepted, where divorce was accepted, where you just kind of moved on, you know, you got a little bit of counseling, and continued as pastoring. Where you could decide to divorce your wife, marry som

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjJP8vDgoBAA bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? To consider such questions, Baylor University professor Dr. David Pooler, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse, joins Julie Roys for this challenging but crucial discussion. They examine the difficult story of these two worship leaders in light of this often-misunderstood issue. Adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened here? Misty claims she’s not a victim. And Kevin was not in a formal role of authority over Misty. But he was more than 20 years older than her. Past articles reveal Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. And Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. Also, in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of “adulterous” relationships, describing his advances with women in ways that sound abusive. He wrote, “I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women, not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure.” Regarding Misty, she has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Follow the shocking revelations concerning IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle and the ministry’s response at this link. Many questions surround what happened with Misty and Kevin. Drawing from his extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, Dr. Pooler gives insight into these complex issues. Julie also addresses criticisms of her reporting, explaining the struggle of how to report this story, the ethics of journalism, and how this report helps shed light on the larger narrative. Guests Dr. David Pooler Dr. David Pooler is Professor and Director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse; Advocacy and Research Collaborative at Baylor University in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. As a national expert on Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, he brings insights about this phenomenon through research and his clinical practice with survivors. Dr. Pooler has a B.A. in psychology and religion from Lee University and earned the MSW and Ph.D in Social Work at the University of Louisville. He is married to Cheryl, who is also a faculty member in the School of Social Work at Baylor, and they have two adult daughters.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSDAVID POOLER, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:03Our bombshell report on the alleged affair between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards sent shockwaves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were both of them consensual partners? Or was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to discuss not just our report on Kevin and Misty, but the often-misunderstood issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. This is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened with Kevin and Misty? Kevin was not in any formal role of authority over Misty, but he was more than 20 years older than her. And we know from published articles that Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. As I reported in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of adulterous relationships. Yet when you hear the way he described those relationships, they sound abusive. Prosch writes, and I quote, I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure. The very gift God gave me to bless others with, I used to manipulate and seduce these women. We also know that Misty has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer or IHOP in Kansas City. And if you haven’t been following the shocking revelations concerning IHOP founder Mike Bickle, I encourage you to go to the investigations tab at my website, JULIEROYS.COM. And there we have all of our stories on IHOP easily accessible.   Julie Roys  02:10 Well, again, there are a lot of questions surrounding what happened with Misty and Kevin, our reporting on Misty and Kevin, and this whole issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. And joining me for this discussion is a well-known expert on the topic, Dr. David Pooler. Dr. Pooler is a professor at Baylor University who’s done extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, and I’m so looking forward to speaking further with him about this topic.   Julie Roys  02:36 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:39 Well again, joining me is Dr. David Pooler, a professor at the Diana R Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University. Dr. Pooler has more than 15 years of social work practice experience and has done extensive work among at risk and abused children. But most pertinent to our discussion today is the research he’s done on adult clergy sexual abuse and his desire to develop healthy church congregations. So Dr. Pooler, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.   DAVID POOLER 04:09 I am super glad to be here. It’s a real privilege and an honor that I get to talk about something that really matters.   Julie Roys  04:15 Now it does matter, and I just so appreciate your interest in abuse, but also in the way that I first met you at the RESTORE Conference, which to me, I was just kind of blown away when I saw you had signed up for it. I’m like, Oh, my goodness, Dr. Pooler is coming and, and he should be teaching, I should be like sitting under him. And yet you came just to learn and observe, and I just appreciate that.   DAVID POOLER 04:38 I did. I wanted to be around people that it’s almost like the folks that show up that RESTORE  are sort of my people if that makes sense. It’s sort of a hodgepodge of people who have been injured and wounded and are still finding their way and wanting things to be better and on some level looking for church reform, right and in ways that we often aren’t thinking about reform. And so I do think that this whole topic of adult clergy sexual abuse kind of sits in this strange place of the church just does not know what to do with. But yet there’s a lot of room for hope and healing and change to occur. That’s what I’m devoting my life to do.   Julie Roys  05:24 Well, I appreciate that. After we published this article on Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards on what I had termed in the article an affair, and I know that’s a very questionable word, given the context of everything, but you reached out to me, just with some concerns, some questions, and just in such a gracious manner, and we were able to have a zoom call about that. And as we’re having this call, I’m thinking, this is such a profitable conversation, I want to make this public. And so I invited you to do this podcast with me. I think this is going to be outstanding, and I appreciate just your demeanor in coming to me about that. But let me just, instead of me trying to paraphrase you, what were some of the concerns that you had with the article and with even how things were presented?   DAVID POOLER 06:12 Sure. When I read it, just in my study of adult clergy sexual abuse, I could immediately tell there was so much more than could be reported on there. These abusive systems and when I say abuse of systems where we have sort of a patriarchal leader, sort of men are elevated, and we have an issue around clericalism, where it’s elevating the priorities and needs of certain leaders to the exclusion of others. Anyway, but when I read the term affair and I’m like, for there to actually be an affair, there would have to be consent, people would have to be on equal power levels. And I’m like, I wonder if that’s really the case here. So I had issues with the term affair, because one of the things that’s really interesting is that there are 14 states that actually criminalize, have state statutes, where a pastoral leader if they abuse an adult under their care, they can be charged with a

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/3TQsIWujVnI Once you’ve experienced trauma, how do you heal? What should you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? In this edition of The Roys Report, discover answers to these questions and more in an in-depth talk from professional psychologist, Dr. Phil Monroe. It comes from his recent (and second) appearance at the Restore Conference. And you’ll hear the wisdom and gentle demeanor that have made him a favorite among attendees. All too often, people who are traumatized don’t know how to find the help they need. They may end up in the care of someone who wasn’t qualified or able to help them. Or, in some cases, the person who was supposed to help them with trauma actually made their trauma worse. As a trusted voice in the survivor community and an expert in trauma, Dr. Monroe gives practical, actionable steps about what to do—and not to do—in one’s healing journey. He talks about the ways trauma hinders all aspects of oneself. “You need to take care of your body—it’s the only one you have,” he says. Healing from trauma isn’t a journey anyone wanted to be on. Yet Dr. Monroe gives each of us strategies, tools, and even grace to take the time and energy needed for the path ahead. Guests Phil Monroe Philip Monroe, PsyD, is a psychologist who leads Langberg, Monroe & Associates, a private clinical practice in the greater Philadelphia area. He is the Taylor Visiting Professor of Counseling at Missio Seminary where he and Dr. Diane Langberg founded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute. Learn more at philipmonroe.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, PHIL MONROE PHIL MONROE  00:04 Once you’ve experienced trauma, how do you heal? What do you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? Welcome to The Roys Report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and on this podcast you’re going to hear a talk from our last RESTORE conference by Dr. Phil Monroe on the do’s and don’ts of healing. Phil is a trusted voice in the survivor community. He leads the counseling practice begun by Dr. Diane Langberg, a popular author and globally recognized trauma expert. Phil is an expert on trauma as well and leads the trauma healing Institute at the American Bible Society, and he’s a repeat speaker at RESTORE and someone whose wisdom and gentle demeanor has made him a favorite at the conference. But I especially appreciated his talk at the last RESTORE. So often I hear from people who knew they were traumatized and needed help. But sadly, they didn’t know how to find the help that they needed. They ended up in the care of someone who wasn’t qualified or able to help them. Or in some cases, the person who was supposed to help actually made their trauma worse. So, this is an incredibly important topic and one I’m eager for all of you to hear. Julie Roys  01:18 But first I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys  02:21 Well, again, the talk you’re about to hear is from Dr. Phil Monroe from our last restore conference in October. Here’s his message on the do’s and don’ts of healing from trauma. PHIL MONROE  02:32 It’s good to be here with you. And it is good to follow Carson and LoriAnne. Thank you for telling us your story. Thank you for shining light. It’s costly when you tell your story. Even when you tell your story in front of a group of safe people, it’s costly. And I bet some of you too, have been telling your story on the sides here of the room for coffee over lunch, and you’ve been telling parts of it. And you might find yourself at the end of this weekend exhausted. That’s normal. That’s what happens to us when we exert the energy to speak and to speak the unspeakable. So, I encourage you ,have compassion, take care of you. Think about what you’re going to be putting into your body and what you’re going to do the rest of this weekend when this conference is over. Because you will need recovery time. We all do. I also encourage you when the videos come out, play back Dr. Lena’s, Carson’s, and Lori Anne’s parts where they’re talking about how they recovered. Your journey will look different. It will be different; you have different stories, you have different guides, you have different geographies to traverse. But there’s goodness in there to hear again from them, what it’s been taking for them to heal, what did they need? What helped? This is the question that I get asked a lot and for why I came up here today. PHIL MONROE  04:19 How do we know if we’re doing this journey right? This journey of healing it is a journey. Trauma is a wound that affects every part of your life. It hinders your ability to relate to your own self, much less your family, your friends, your community, and your faith. It takes a long time to heal. And it feels like this journey that we never wanted to be on that we never asked for, and we’re in this foreign land that doesn’t make any sense. And we’re both somehow equally alone on this journey, but with a whole bunch of people on the sidelines yelling advice to us. And some of it might be helpful. A lot of it probably isn’t. Right? So, this journey that you never wanted to be on takes energy and time. And so, let’s take a few moments to just talk about, how do we know if we’re doing it right? What is it supposed to be like this journey of healing? Carson talked this morning about, you know, doing it and feeling like he was making progress., and then going back down in the hole, I think LoriAnne said the same thing. This is what it feels like, we go a step forward, and 10 back. This is the healing journey. It’s normal, it’s natural. And you are doing it right. PHIL MONROE  05:52 I want to give you a little bit of a preview about where we’re going. Well, I’ll talk about a few things, a few hooks to hang some ideas on. We’ll look at some of the myths that we believe that kind of interrupt our healing journey, we’ll look at some of the red flags, I’ll add to some of the things that LoriAnne said, some red flags about those helpers, those guides along the way that we should give pause to and consider whether or not that’s the right person for us. And then end with some ideas about all the therapies that are out there that you’ve heard, and what you might do in order to try to figure out what’s the right thing for me. Again, I’m not going to be able to tell you what that right thing is for you. But if we have some ideas, and things that can help us make that decision, then we might be in a better place. PHIL MONROE  06:47 So, let’s start with three things that you can hang all of what we’re going to talk on, on what it means to be on the healing journey, three hooks that you need. These are three things that no matter what model you use, no matter what kind of guide you’re looking for, you probably need in your life. The very first thing is to take care of your body, to take care of you. Trauma affects every part of your life. It affects your body, your mind, your soul, your spirit, every bit of you has been impacted. And your number one activity is to take care of you. And to do it with compassion and curiosity. I’m going to repeat that a couple of times during our talk here, because I actually find it rather rare in our Christian environments. Somehow self-compassion sounds like self-ish. And curiosity seems dangerous, because we might ask  unlight questions, and we might come up with some answers of things that help that others think no, you can’t do that. You need to take care of this body of yours. It’s the only one you get. This has come to my attention more recently in the last couple of weeks, I hurt my back. You’ve seen me with a cane around here. This is a violation of my pride. So, I didn’t bring it up here. But I needed it. And what happened is, I thought I was younger than I was, and I carried around a heavy backpack for a lot of miles, and then paid the price a few days later. What happened to me was, my muscles went into contraction, and I was immobilized. And even as I began to the healing journey, and getting physical therapy and medications and understanding what was going on with me, I didn’t want to move, everything locked up. Any movement could bring that spasm back. And I needed guides and friends to say, you know, you can relax those other muscles that aren’t working right now. I had to tell myself this over and over again. I had to think about, what does my body need? My instinct was to actually not move in order to not hurt. But I needed to remember no actually, movement helps. As one of my friends says, motion is lotion. It keeps you moving so you can move more. Right? So, this is the small little trauma that I experienced that lasted for about a week and I’m still recovering from it. But imagine if your body has been impacted by decades of trauma, how much more compassion we need to have and curiosity? It didn’t do me any good to beat u

Guest Bios Show Transcript Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Think about what it means when applied to a pastor’s role in a church. What about the priesthood of all believers? And where is Jesus in that equation? In this edition of The Roys Report, veteran church planter and pastor, Lance Ford, challenges popular views of leadership, showing how they’re the opposite of what Scripture teaches. In the Body of Christ, the pastor is not the head; Jesus is! In 2012, Lance Ford’s landmark work UnLeader exposed how unbiblical models of leadership have become an obsession in the church. Now The Atlas Factor, which is about shifting leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus, serves as a sequel to that book. One of the most eye-opening truths of The Atlas Factor is that leadership, when presented as a key to organizational success, is a relatively new concept. The multi-billion-dollar industry built around teaching and training people in leadership—in both the corporate world and the church—has emerged only within the past 40 to 50 years. And this model of leadership didn’t come from Scripture; it came from the world. Lance was featured in a recent podcast with his message from the Restore Conference titled, “It’s the System, Stupid.” If you caught that message, then you heard a preview of what Lance and Julie delve into in-depth in this podcast. Lance’s prophetic message is a clarion call to the church to return to Jesus’ way of doing things—or continue to face disastrous consequences. Guests Lance Ford Lance Ford is an author, church planter, coach, and consultant who has designed unique training systems currently being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world. He has written several books including The Atlas Factor, UnLeader, The Missional Quest, and The Starfish and the Spirit. Lance holds a master’s degree in Global Leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary. Learn more at LanceFordBooks.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSLANCE FORD, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Certainly, great leaders can make a big difference in the success of an organization. But think about what that line applied to the church really means. Does everything rise or fall on the pastor? What about the priesthood of all believers? What about the body of Christ, where each member plays a vital role? And most importantly, what about Jesus? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Lance Ford, who spent decades planting and pastoring churches. And recently we published his talk from the RESTORE conference where he argued that so many of the scandals and issues that we see in the church today stem from our toxic model of leadership. Well, today you’re in for a treat, because Lance is joining me to discuss his new book, The Atlas Factor. And this book eviscerates the conventional wisdom that leadership is everything. In fact, one of the most eye-opening things I learned in this book is that leadership is a relatively new concept. Sure, there have always been people who lead and manage organizations. But leadership as this thing that’s crucial to the success of organizations is relatively new. And certainly, the industry that’s been built around teaching and training people in leadership in both the corporate world and the church is super new, like within the past 40 to 50 years. But I think the pressing question, especially in the church concerns whether these notions of leadership we’re training pastors to follow are actually biblical. And if they’re not, what’s the alternative? We’ll dig into those questions in just a minute.   Julie Roys  01:46 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:49 Well, again, joining me is Lance Ford, a church planter, coach, and consultant who spent decades pastoring and planting churches. And out of that experience and biblical study, he’s designed unique training systems that are being used by seminaries, church networks, and leaders throughout the world. Lance is also the author of several books, including one of my favorites called Unleader. This book exposes the obsession in the church to unbiblical models of leadership. It’s fantastic and eye opening. And Lance’s latest book, The Atlas Factor, is essentially a sequel to Unleader, and it’s quickly become one of my favorites as well. So, Lance, thanks so much for joining me. I’m really, really looking forward to our discussion.   LANCE FORD  03:29 It’s always one of my favorite things to do is visit with you, Julie.   Julie Roys  03:32 I’m glad to hear that. And I should mention that you also are a recent addition to The Roys Report board. So, we’re pretty excited about that. But I know you spoke at RESTORE and I heard from so so many people, but our board as well, just saying, hey, we need to get this guy on our board. So just really, really glad for all the wisdom that you’re going to bring to the board. So, thanks for being willing to do that.   LANCE FORD  03:55 Well, it’s a huge honor to be invited to be a part of y’all. The boardroom didn’t get smarter because I showed up it probably got a little dumber When I joined.   Julie Roys  04:04 I do not believe that. But as I mentioned, you spoke at RESTORE and gave a great talk on toxic leadership and  our obsession with it and probably had the best line of the entire conference I have to say, which became the title of the podcast that we put out with your talk, which is, It’s the System, Stupid! Just briefly for those who didn’t hear your talk, which if you didn’t hear Lance’s talk, it’s the System, Stupid!, I think it was like back in mid-December, we published that. Go back and listen to his talk. It is so so good. But talk about what you meant by that, that it’s the system stupid.   LANCE FORD  04:41 I think probably Julie one day I was probably somewhere along the midst of listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  podcast, and I was just thinking, they just keep talking about symptoms, symptoms. They never get to the solution, and I just said it out loud. It’s the system stupid. And it reminded me, James Carville’s deal with Clinton. It’s the economy stupid. So that’s kind of where that came from is that all these problems that we have are downstream from a messed-up system. And you can’t just deal with the symptoms and try to throw drugs at the symptoms. You have to bandage the wounds, pouring the oil on the wine, that’s necessary to say the least. Well, let’s do some preventative medicine. Let’s go back to the headwaters of this thing and try to nip some of this stuff in the bud. And it just seems that the answer almost every time, especially internally, from the groups that are in the midst of these falls and these breakdowns in leadership, usually their answer is, well, we just need better accountability. But it’s the same type of what they call accountability. So rare is it that when you hear a group say, well, we need new leadership, they don’t mean they need new leadership systems. They mean, we need a new hero leader.   Julie Roys  06:05 Yeah. Oh, exactly. I mean, I remember when Rick Warren was stepping down. And of course, there’s all sorts of issues with Andy Wood, who was picked as his successor. And we’ve published many articles on how he apparently is a horribly abusive leader. But he’s now in that position. And when I heard the language, though, it was like we need to find a successor for Rick. And I thought, really, who can be the successor to Rick Warren, and who is capable of being in a position over so many churches and having so many people following you? And I sit there and wonder, because there’s this idea that there’s going to be this really good, noble, full of integrity leader that can handle those kinds of pressures. And I sit there, and I look at that, and I’m like, I don’t know that I can handle that. That’s an awful lot to shoulder. And I think that really is at the root of what you’re talking about in this book, The Atlas Factor. The metaphor is great of you know, Atlas with the weight of the world on his shoulders. But essentially, that’s what we’ve set up leaders to be, to be Atlas, to do the impossible, and then we’re surprised when they fail. Here’s a quote that’s very early in your book from the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, they’re irrefutable.   LANCE FORD  07:15 Be careful, Julie.   Julie Roys  07:17 But the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is this quote from LeRoy Eims, “a leader is one who sees more than others see, who sees further than others see, and who sees before others do.” And then there’s the quote that I said at the beginning of the podcast, that “everything rises or falls on leadership.” It’s almost like we have made these men into gods; talk about that whole dynamic and what it’s

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/RF-3TbX8fXAAs a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times—and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was, Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution—not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. In this edition of The Roys Report, you’re going to hear Julie’s powerful interview at the Restore Conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight in 2013, a year after her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran.  With the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan’s Purse and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention. And it eventually led to Saeed’s release in 2015. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed’s violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation were not just a sign of a bad marriage. It was abuse.  Yet, when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In this interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community’s failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church—and how the Western Church’s failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature.  Drawing from her book, aptly titled, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, Naghmeh’s message is a prophetic witness to the American church—if we will listen in and take heed.  In her talk, Naghmeh refers to recent books by Miriam Ibraheem and Lance Ford. Guests Naghmeh Panahi Naghmeh Panahi is an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then-husband, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. Naghmeh’s autobiography, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, is available now. Learn more at NaghmehPanahi.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSNAGHMEH PANAHI, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04As a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution, not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today you’re going to hear my powerful interview at the RESTORE conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight when her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran. And with the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan’s Purse, and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention and it eventually lead to Saeed’s release. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed’s violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation was not just a sign of a bad marriage, it was abuse. Yet when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In our interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community’s failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church and how the Western Church’s failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature. I am so grateful for Naghmeh’s, prophetic witness to the American church, and I’m confident that God is using that witness both through podcasts like these, and in Naghmeh’s book aptly titled, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution and Hidden Abuse.   Julie Roys  01:50 We’ll get to my interview with Naghmeh just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:56 Well, again, here’s my interview with Naghmeh Panahi on surviving persecution from the church. This is from our last RESTORE conference in October 2023.   Julie Roys  03:07 Let’s just start with a little bit of your story. And again, those of you who know her story, this may be familiar, but I know I learned a lot of new things. You were born in Iran. And the interesting thing is you got to see Iran before the revolution, and then after. Talk about what the change was in Iran when you when you saw that happen?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  03:29 Yeah, I was actually born soon, a few years before the revolution. So, my mom was one of the first women in the king’s army, as a woman, which was pretty radical for her time. And also just, you know, Iran has had Islam for about 1400 years, so not Islamic culture. And she was very proud woman with her gun and protecting the Shah, but also, you know, having authority in a sense that women usually didn’t have. So, my mom was kind of protecting the king from the revolution. My dad was actually one of the people that wanted the Islamic Revolution, because, before the revolution, people like my mom, were wearing miniskirts. And, you know, just like the US, they were free, and my dad and his group of people thought, you know, we’re becoming too westernized. And if we have an Islamic religious revolution, then the culture will be more purified. And so, I kind of grew up in chaos. I saw  tires burning, my mom going, and my nanny would cry, and is she going to come back? Cuz she was trying to defend against the protesters, and then my dad would be in the streets and there was different groups that were trying to take over the government. And they were all radical and there was a lot of people just been killed in the streets. And so, I kind of grew up in a very chaotic political atmosphere of where the country was becoming very Islamic. And so, I went to school I shared in my book, my photo from my school, elementary school and I looked at and I was the most covered up. Like some of the girls had their head covering a little back. Just from the photo, you can tell I was so afraid. I was told you can’t show hair and all this teaching that was like going through the schools about just Islam and how we had to cover up. And so, it was very foreign to me, having seen my mom without a covering, and then seeing her, she had to be all covered up and her rank  taken away from her. And she had to be in an office setting, as a woman couldn’t have any authority over men in any position of power. And so, I was noticing a lot of that changes and the fear that was gripping a lot of the woman. I would actually have a lot of dreams that I was walking in the streets in Iran without head covering, and I was being arrested. And that was one of my, a lot of the nightmares I had. But just the fear of having to cover up and right around the revolution right after there was a war with Iraq. So, I also grew up in war, we had bombs and missiles. And I was just flipping through my social media, and I saw a video with the sirens going off in Israel. And all of a sudden I had a panic attack, because I would hear those sirens all of the time, the bomb sirens and you have to go to shelter and not knowing if your house was going to be the next one that was bombed, or a missile would hit it, or a lot of the Iraqi soldiers were certain parts of Iran were attacking and raping and taking captives and women and children were being killed. And so, it’s brought back a lot of that memory as a child, even just hearing that siren was so hard to listen to.   Julie Roys  06:47 I’m thinking when you’re talking about being covered up your mother losing her rank, being afraid as a woman I mean, I’m thinking of Sheila’s talk yesterday. I mean, this is like modesty message on steroids. As a young girl, how did you internalize, did that make you feel different about you?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:04 Yeah, I was told as a seven-year-old at that time. Like when I went to school, I had to dress up, like cover up, I was told that I was sexually appealing to men.   Julie Roys  07:14  As a seven-year-old?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:16 That’s what I we had to once I went to school, like six, seven-year-old got to be fully covered. And people I know that had their relatives like their grandmother had married at the age of nine and their mother had married at the age of 12. Right now, we do work in Afghanistan, and since the Taliban has taken over these, as soon as the girl hits puberty, like nine, a lot of times 9-10, they’re being married and they’re now giving birth to babies at like 10, 11,