The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins welcomes Gary Schiffman and Jon Bassett of 4QM Teaching to the podcast to discuss their new US History curriculum and the principles behind their innovative Four Question Method. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode This conversation explores the gap between traditional inquiry-based learning and the need for explicit instruction in historical content and disciplinary thinking. Gary and Jon explain how their curriculum is designed to support "ordinary teachers" and build students' capacity for civil disagreement by grounding critical thinking in a robust body of knowledge. Key Takeaways & Discussion Points The Power of the 4QM Method: We detail why 4QM Teaching shifted from consulting to developing a full curriculum, recognizing the need for a practical vehicle to implement their teaching framework in the classroom. The Four Question Framework: Learn the four core questions that anchor every lesson and build specific historical thinking skills: Q1: What happened? (The skill of Narration and Storytelling) Q2: What were they thinking? (The skill of Interpretation of documents) Q3: Why then and there? (The skill of Explanation and causation) Q4: What do we think about that? (The skill of Judgment and civil discourse) Knowledge-Rich Inquiry: Jon and Gary firmly assert their position in the "knowledge first" camp, arguing that deep critical thinking is domain specific. They share why "structure is liberating" when students are equipped with a strong base of historical facts. Teaching Civil Disagreement: Discover how separating the "judgment" question (Q4) allows students to practice the art of civil disagreement in a structured, reasoned way, even when addressing controversial historical topics. Time-Stamped Topics Key moments in the discussion: 06:52 - The origin story and philosophical foundation of the Four Question Method (4QM Teaching). 10:41 - A detailed breakdown of the four questions: Narration, Interpretation, Explanation, and Judgment. 14:20 - Why 4QM Teaching finally decided to write a full US History curriculum. 21:45 - How Question 4 teaches the "art of civil disagreement" (and the related work of Natalie Wexler). 36:14 - The argument that critical thinking is entirely domain-specific in advanced fields. 52:09 - Simplifying the curriculum to reduce cognitive load with four transparent lesson types.

Is the core of teaching history about memorizing history facts, or is it about critical thinking? And what is the role of knowledge-rich inquiry in the history classroom? Drew Perkins is joined by history educators Lauren Brown, Jonathan Dallimore (author of Teaching History: A Practical Guide for Secondary School Teachers), and Professor Aaron Astor for a frank, dialectic conversation on these essential questions. They discuss the necessity of foundational knowledge, how to promote historical thinking, and the biggest threats to historical understanding in the age of AI and social media. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode This deep dive into history pedagogy covers: Why college students are showing up "fact-deficient" and the need for better long-term memory retention through context. The difference between simple chronology and the power of periodization as a critical thinking tool. Why the fundamental historical critical question is "so what." Bridging the gap between knowledge building and inquiry-based learning to equip students with "reality-based community practices." The argument for why historiography (understanding different interpretations and debates) is a crucial form of shared cultural knowledge. Key Themes & Time-Stamped Highlights (00:14:18) The Problem of Forgetting: Professor Astor notes that college students often lack basic knowledge, not because they were never taught, but because they forgot previously learned information. He emphasizes the need for repetition and context to make facts "stick". (00:18:17) The Multiplication Analogy: The panel agrees that some foundational facts, like multiplication tables in math, must be fluent to prevent cognitive load when performing higher-level tasks, such as understanding complex military strategy or migration patterns in history. (00:23:07) Efficiency of Explicit Instruction: Jonathan Dallimore explains that concrete, explicit instruction (such as teaching geography on a map) is necessary to efficiently inject context, preserving limited class time for richer, deeper historical conversations (inquiry). (00:27:37) The Case for Foundational Facts: Lauren Brown supports teaching foundational facts (like the 50 states) at a young age to build knowledge systematically and improve overall literacy and comprehension of diverse texts. (00:36:56) Context is Key to Memory: Drew Perkins points out that facts are more likely to be retained in long-term memory if they are put in context with other information (e.g., connecting a state's location to regional dynamics or Civil War loyalties). (00:45:08) Chronology vs. Periodization: Jonathan Dallimore champions periodization (breaking history into three or four manageable phases) as a more effective tool than simple chronology. He argues that periodization is not only concrete but also serves as a critical tool for later interpretation and debate. (00:53:10) Knowledge Prevents "Post-Truth Nonsense": The panel stresses that building a sufficient factual architecture is crucial to prevent historical discussions from devolving into unsupported, opinionated "post-truth nonsense". (00:56:48) The "So What" Question: Aaron Astor identifies the fundamental critical question in history as "so what" — encouraging students to understand why a particular piece of information matters and how it is connected to a bigger force or theme. (01:07:09) Knowledge as an Indicator, Not the Aim: Drew Perkins introduces Grant Wiggins's idea that "knowledge is an indicator of educational success, not the aim," emphasizing the value of what a student can do with the knowledge (i.e., critical thinking and making connections). (01:19:02) The Importance of Historiography: Jonathan Dallimore argues that rich cultural knowledge should include an understanding of the big historical debates and interpretations (historiography) to help students contextualize information encountered on social media. (01:21:53) Navigating the Modern Information Landscape: Aaron Astor discusses how AI and social media (the "anarchy of takes") have destabilized the architecture of information, making it imperative for history teachers to inculcate reality-based community practices to discern fact from fiction. (01:34:01) The Goal: Think Historically: Aaron Astor concludes that the ultimate goal of history education is for students to "think historically" about their worlds and their times.

Drew Perkins is joined by guest co-host, fourth-grade teacher Melinda Karshner, for a critical conversation with Timothy Shanahan, Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago and former Director of Reading for Chicago Public Schools. They discuss the core arguments of his book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives, How Students' Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Key Themes & Time-Stamped Highlights (00:10:31) The Flaw in Instructional Level Theory: Dr. Shanahan explains why the long-held notion of teaching kids at their "instructional level" is flawed, noting that research shows this practice often holds students back and reduces their opportunity to learn. (00:12:37) The Research: Studies show that students who receive "instructional level" treatment often do worse than those taught with grade-level materials. (00:14:04) The Problem of "Ghost Retention": The practice effectively retains students at lower curriculum levels without informing parents, leading to a disconnect between national assessment results and parental perception of their child's reading level. (00:16:11) Shanahan's Stance on Phonics: While "very pro phonics," Dr. Shanahan emphasizes following research, noting that a federal panel he served on supported phonics, fluency, vocabulary, and direct instruction in reading comprehension. (00:20:37) Challenging Text and Equity: Shanahan shares historical context and cites studies showing that ability-based reading groups actually penalized minority students, confirming that the practice of holding kids back is detrimental to equity. (00:25:28) The Power of Scaffolding: For most struggling readers (a one- to two-year gap), scaffolding grade-level materials is manageable and beneficial, especially from the beginning of second grade onward. (00:31:13) Optimizing Intervention Time: Dr. Shanahan suggests that for students with basic foundational skills, intervention time should limit decoding practice to about 15 minutes of a 45-minute session, using the remaining time for working on grade-level text fluency and comprehension. (00:33:44) Fluency & Practice: Having students read challenging text aloud a second time can reduce errors by 50%, making it immediately more accessible for comprehension. (00:40:31) Student Choice & Motivation: Teachers should involve students in choosing texts among grade-level options (e.g., voting on the next three stories) to dramatically increase engagement and motivation. (00:43:37) Cognitive Load & Productive Struggle: Dr. Shanahan resolves the tension with cognitive load theory, emphasizing that learning requires a degree of challenge (frustration) to be retained, and the goal is successful navigation of challenging material with support. (00:51:07) Reforming Teacher Education: Teacher preparation programs need to move away from focusing on matching kids to books and instead focus on training teachers to address texts that outstrip a student's current skills through targeted support and intervention. (01:00:06) The Four-Part Literacy Framework: Dr. Shanahan outlines a mandated framework for Language Arts instruction: (1) words/parts of words, (2) fluency, (3) reading comprehension, and (4) writing instruction, recommending a quarter of time for each, balanced over time. (01:03:15) Integrating Content: Integrating social studies or science content into the reading comprehension block provides a "double dose" of learning and exposure to varied text types.

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning about his new book, Change Starts Here: What If Everything Your School Needed Was Right in Front of You? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Heidi Boghosian about her book, Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode  

Drew Perkins talks with George Lilley, a veteran teacher from Australia, about his critiques of the work of John Hattie, and the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with return guest, Ronn Nozoe, CEO of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP). Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Vladimir Kogan about his new book, No Adult Left Behind: How Politics Hijacks Education Policy and Hurts Kids. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Rod Naquin about balancing educational research with practice as he returns to the classroom after 7 years doing educational leadership work. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Jim Heal and Rebekah Berlin about their new book, Mental Models: How understanding the mind can transform the way you work and learn. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Karen Vaites about navigating educational tribalism, the "Science of Learning," and the impact of knowledge-rich, coherent curricula on student outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Rachel Curtis and Liz City, co-authors of the book Leading Strategically: Achieving Ambitious Goals in Education. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Christina LaRose about her work with the Prohuman Foundation to develop a curriculum focused on learning character through literature. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Michael Strong, founder of The Socratic Experience, a K–12 high-touch virtual school that equips students through Socratic dialogue, 1:1 mentoring, and creative and entrepreneurial projects. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with teacher-educator Rachael Jefferson about her Education HQ article from an interview that is critical of the Science of Learning movement. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning as a guest on his Education Leaders podcast about how to have conversations that focus on nuance, complexity, and understanding. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Songyee Yoon, author and founder and managing partner of the venture capital firm Principal Venture Partners (PVP), where she focuses on investing in AI-native companies transforming industries. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with teacher and author, Richard Bustin, about his book What Are We Teaching? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins is joined by Andrew Watson, Dr. Cindy Nebel, and Fox Demoisey to discuss the intersections between the Science of Learning, project-based learning, and inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Tim Minella, Senior Constitutionalism Fellow at The Goldwater Institute, about their work to eliminate DEI in higher education. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode