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Unpacking lessons for the public service, starting with the Robodebt Royal Commission.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate.
Ultimately the Australian Government was forced to pay $1.8bn back to more than 470,000 Australians.
In this podcast we dive deep into public policy failures like Robodebt and the British Post Office scandal - how they start, why they're hard to stop, and the public service lessons we shouldn't forget.
28 Episodes
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In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators.In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead.But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years?Intro grab ...
“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon itself. The dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure ...
In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO).Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of publi...
In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, consistent with the Public Sector Code of Ethics that permits public servants to promote an outcome in relation to an issue of public interest - in thi...
Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.ANAO...
If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then rem...
Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going. We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions ...
Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).Among other things, we talk about the...
Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco.Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar?Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office TrialAlison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think AgainOn the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nick W...
In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer...
Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.The discussion covers- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly- risk as a frame for empowering people to push...
In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt. *This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*Some references from the interview include:Frank Kafka Before the LawPamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, ...
In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along.Ultimately, the listeners win.References from the episode include:If Books Could Kill podcast on NudgeRichard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Nudge: Improving decisi...
Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower. She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends.Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave.As promised in the ep...
In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission.In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur.Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't do this in the time allowed?'How should generalists respond when asked to engage in technical subject matter that we don't understand?And once again, ...
In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works.We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation. We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic tre...
How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies? In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail. You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here. This podcast was recorded on ...
The first of a number of episodes on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt.This episode focuses on big data in government - what we know about it, the ways in which data can be hard to use, and the supreme importance of context. Danielle talks about disappearing from a government system, and Alison gives an important life hack to all double-barrelled surname holders.You can find a link to the Professor Darren O’Donovan article mentioned up front here. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, an...
Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that. Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud".Danielle finally gets to ask 'what would Colleen do?' - but we all agree it takes a person of rare temperament to be as graceful as Colleen Tay...
In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release. We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes. If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit.You can find Rick Morton's podcast here, and his books On Money and 100 Years of Dirt.Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, 13...
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