This Is Not A Drill with Gavin Esler

As a follower of This Is Not A Drill, we thought you might like to try our brand new, not-entirely-dissimilar podcast CRIME SCENE. Every week ex-Met Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe and former Mirror editor Alison Phillips lift the lid on how criminal investigations really work. In our debut episode: The horrific shooting of an innocent nine-year-old girl in Dalston in 2024 laid bare bitter rivalries between London’s armed gangs. Are police they fighting a losing battle against guns in the Capital? Want to know more? Hear the full episode here and subscribe for new episodes every Thursday. Presented by Bernard Hogan-Howe and Alison Phillips. Audio production by Tom Taylor. Music by Simon Williams. Produced by Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis and Group Editor Andrew Harrison. Executive Producer: Martin Bojtos. Thanks to Helen Purvis at Knight Ayton Management. CRIME SCENE is a Podmasters Production www.podmasters.co.uk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As conflicts and tariff wars disrupt the global order, is political division preventing urgent action to protect the planet?A decade ago world leaders gathered at COP 21 in Paris to discuss the climate crisis - 194 countries signing a breakthrough agreement to limit global warming. By this year, as COP 30 meets in Brazil, the 1.5 degree target on global warming has been breached. Joining Gavin Esler to discuss the future for climate action and whether countries can find consensus to meet the biggest challenges of our time, is Nick Mabey, founding director and CEO of independent climate change think tank E3G - and also the founder of London Climate Action Week.  • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The European Union has some hard choices to make. It’s faced with an aggressive Russia on its borders, a US administration with limited enthusiasm for the NATO alliance and political divisions in its member states. Behind all this lies deep uncertainty about the coherence of the Union and its economic future in a world economy increasingly dominated by the US and China. What can be done to protect the European way of life and secure unity on the continent?  Gavin Esler talks to leading economic thinker and political commentator David Marsh, author of the recent book Can Europe Survive?    • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan.    • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this.    Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more    Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A series airspace violations by Russian jets and drones have increased tensions over European skies – could a new ‘drone wall’ now protect Europe’s Eastern flank? With plans announced for a new aerial defence system to protect Eastern borders, how would a drone wall work, and can the EU and NATO deliver on promises to improve Europe’s defences? In today’s episode, Oz Katerji talks to Justin Bronk, Senior Research Fellow for Airpower & Technology at RUSI. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What will happen when dictators realise just how useful big tech and the data it gathers could be for them? How is this already happening – and how could it expand, as A.I. ramps up the way draconian governments can use tech? Bruce Schneier, a renowned cyber security expert, best-selling author and co-author of Rewiring Democracy How AI Will Transform Our Politics, Government, and Citizenship joins Gavin Esler to discuss.   • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan.      • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this.     Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more      Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rise of right-wing populism has changed politics across the world.  From the proliferation of CPAC conferences across the globe to attacks on institutions and political rivals, does a populist playbook pose a threat to democracy? And how can we resist the rise to power of authoritarian leaders worldwide? In today’s episode, Gavin Esler is joined by Catherine Fieschi, fellow at the Robert Schuman Centre of the European University in Florence. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cyber attacks are on the rise and the threats impact us all. Which countries are leading these moves and how can we combat them? Britain’s National Cyber Security Centre says that the UK faced four ‘nationally significant’ attacks a week on average in the past year. It adds that China poses a "capable" cyber threat, "targeting a wide range of sectors and institutions across the globe’, and highlights the activities of Russia, Iran and North Korea. In today’s episode Gavin Esler talks to James Sullivan, Director of Cyber and Tech at RUSI, the Royal United Services Institute to discuss scale and nature of cyber attacks, and assess how governments can respond. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A US-led peace plan has brought renewed hopes that an end to the conflict in Gaza may be in sight. But as talks in Cairo continue over the release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, the withdrawal of Israeli troops and disarmament of Hamas, what are the prospects for a lasting peace settlement? Gavin Esler discusses the latest with Gregg Carlstrom, Middle East correspondent for The Economist. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trump’s foreign policy means the United States is leaving a vacuum in world affairs – and China looks increasingly willing to fill it.   Following the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Tianjin last month, what is the real nature of Xi Jinping and China’s expanding but complex international relationships, including those with Narendra Modi in India and Vladimir Putin in Russia? In the latest episode of This Is Not A Drill, Gavin Esler talks to Elizabeth Wishnick, expert on Chinese-Russian relations and senior research scholar at Columbia University’s Weatherhead East Asian Institute, and Tanvi Madan, senior fellow in the Center for Asia Policy Studies at the Brookings Institution, host of the Global India podcast and author of the book Fateful Triangle: How China Shaped US-India Relations during the Cold War.”  • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a dramatic shift over the war in Ukraine, Trump took to Truth Social this week to declare his belief that Ukraine can win back its territories.  Will Trump’s change in stance last, and will the shift in rhetoric lead to a change in policy from the White House? To discuss a dramatic week at the UN General Assembly meeting and the latest from the front lines in Eastern Ukraine, Oz Katerji is joined in Kyiv by security analyst Jimmy Rushton. Read Jimmy Rushton’s report on Ukraine’s defence of its front lines in New Lines Magazine here. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trump’s economic policies have caused chaos globally and he’s made it clear he’s happy to use America’s financial might against his enemies – or help his friends. But, when it comes to security, who is this actually helping?  In the latest episode of This Is Not A Drill – we ask,how do tariffs and inflation in the US impact global security? Emma Beals is joined by Adam Posen, the president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. Read Adam Posen’s Foreign Affairs article ‘The New Economic Geography’ here. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Emma Beals. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How did Nepal’s ‘Discord revolution’ spark so quickly and bring in a new national leader chosen by online poll? On the 8th of September, a group of young Nepali gathered in Kathmandu to protest a social media ban they saw as a heavy-handed crackdown against an anti-corruption movement. A week later, the government has fallen, more than 70 people lie dead after protests were infiltrated by violent groups and the government responded with lethal force, and Nepal has a new Prime Minister, herself nominated via social media. In the latest episode of This Is Not A Drill, Oz Katerji is joined from Kathmandu by journalist and academic Dinesh Kafle. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

NATO jets have scrambled to shoot down Russian drones after what Polish military command has called an ‘unprecedented violation’ of its airspace.  As Europe reacts to Russian aggression crossing into NATO airspace and Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk invokes Article 4 of the NATO treaty, Gavin Esler is joined for the latest from Warsaw by Ian Garner, assistant professor at the Center for Totalitarian Studies at the Pilecki Institute. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As conflicts and tariff-led trade wars fracture an international order forged at the end of the Second World War, have we entered an era of great power competition?  Joining Oz Katerji today to discuss whether the rise to prominence of autocratic ‘strongman’ leaders marks a new landscape of great power contest is Stacie Goddard, Professor of Political Science at Wellesley College.  • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill  to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

China is upping its pace in a race to dominate the world of technology. What will Beijing’s quest mean for its rivalry with the US and how will it shape the future? Gavin Esler is joined by Dan Wang, author of Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, to discuss China’s ambitions.   Buy Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future through our affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund This is Not a Drill by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s fees help support independent bookshops too. https://uk.bookshop.org/a/13277/9780241729175  • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by ⁠Incogni⁠, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to⁠ https://incogni.com/notadrill⁠ to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan.    • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this: https://www.patreon.com/thisisnotadrill     Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more    Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As details, claims and counter claims emerge after Trump’s long-promised peace talks, Ukraine’s future remains in the balance. In this special 100th of edition of This Is Not A Drill, Oz Katerji discusses a week of crucial diplomacy with Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine’s minister for foreign affairs from 2020 to 2024. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After a frantic week of international diplomacy, where has the Trump-Putin summit left the prospect of an end to Russia’s war on Ukraine? Following Trump’s red carpet welcome for Putin in Alaska, European leaders scrambled to join Volodymyr Zelenskyy for further talks in Washington. With details still unclear on a host of negotiations, from land swaps to security guarantees, sanctions and even a potential meeting between Putin and Zelenskyy, what’s the state of play now? Oz Katerji is joined by Keir Giles, Russia expert at Chatham House and author, most recently of Who Will Defend Europe? - An Awakened Russia and a Sleeping Continent. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this: https://www.patreon.com/thisisnotadrill  Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The highly potent opioid fentanyl is a major cause of death in the US – and the global trade of the drug is also a cause of growing geopolitical division.  Trump has claimed tariffs on Mexico and Canada are targeting the supply of the drug; his China tariffs have complicated efforts to stem exports of the ingredients needed for its production, and fractures among cartels pushing fentanyl could well reshape underworld activity worldwide. In the latest episode of This Is Not A Drill, Emma Beals discusses the global effects of the fentanyl trade with Vanda Felbab-Brown, director of the Initiative on Nonstate Armed Actors and senior fellow in the Strobe Talbott Center for Security, Strategy, and Technology at the Brookings Institution. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by  Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Emma Beals. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After the 12 day war, which saw Israel and the US bomb Iran and its nuclear facilities, where next for the Iranian regime?  Questions remain over the Tehran regime’s ability to stay in power after decades of tensions in the region exploded on Iranian soil in June, its strategy of ‘forward defence’ left in ruins following Israel’s attacks on Iranian-aligned militia groups. Will Iran now continue to pursue what’s left of the nuclear programme targeted by US and Israeli strikes, or can a lasting diplomatic solution finally be found?  Gavin Esler talks to Vali Nasr – the Majid Khadduri Professor of International Affairs and Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins University’s School of Advanced International Studies, and the author of  Iran’s Grand Strategy – A Political History. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people with money to spend? (Yes, they do exist). Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why is it so difficult to end wars and what makes peace settlements so likely to be rejected? These questions echo across the globe in an era of conflict and political division, with attempts to broker peace settlements in Gaza and Ukraine dominating headlines but so far remaining out of reach.  Historian Margaret MacMillan is Professor at the University of Oxford and the author of numerous books on war and peace, including Peacemakers, and joins Gavin Esler to discuss the history and pressing realities of peace negotiations. • This episode of This Is Not a Drill is supported by Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Buy Peacemakers, through our affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund This is Not a Drill by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s fees help support independent bookshops too. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices