Transforming Engagement: The Podcast

Welcome to a brand new season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast! This time, we're diving deep into a topic that's been a long time coming – Youth & Campus Ministry Burnout. We open this season with a special guest, Matt Wiggins, who sparked our journey into the world of youth and campus ministry burnout. It began when he came across our Clergy Burnout Report during Season 2 and reached out. Matt had an important question: What about the unique challenges faced by leaders working with the younger generation, those often nonordained, part-time, or volunteer youth ministry leaders? Youth ministry can be a revolving door, with an average staffing turnaround of just 18 months. People step into these leadership roles for various reasons – a stepping stone to their next calling, a deep-seated passion, or sometimes a blend of both. This season, we'll be delving into the distinct challenges that leaders in youth and campus ministry encounter. From a professional standpoint, they often find themselves underpaid and overworked. Moreover, they can feel somewhat sidelined from the central church leadership structure. While this may sometimes spare them from certain decisions, it can also mean exclusion from representing the very people they serve in crucial church matters. And let's not forget that youth ministry leaders are on the frontlines supporting a generation facing unique challenges like never before. Gen Z youth have been profoundly impacted by the pandemic, experiencing disruptions to their lives and critical development time lost in connecting with peers, schools, and communities. Your host for this season is Rose Madrid Swetman, the Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement. We're incredibly thankful to Matt Wiggins for his invitation to explore this pressing topic. In this exciting season, we'll be joined by leaders in the youth and campus ministry field from across the United States. Together, we'll explore a world of insights, engage in meaningful discussions, and dare to dream about innovative ways to support these dedicated leaders and the generations they serve.   Youth & Campus Ministry Resources: NEW: Get our latest free resource, Disillusionment with Ministry: 4 ways to renew your purpose in the midst of disappointment at https://transformingengagement.org/resources/disillusionment-with-ministry/ Download the free Clergy Burnout Report at https://transformingengagement.org/pastor-resources  Find the support you need with a cohort of peers in one of our upcoming Resilience Circles. The 2024 waitlist is currently open. Visit https://transformingengagement.org/circles to learn more. Visit our website to learn more about today's guest, get the transcript, and link to more resources at https://transformingengagement.org/podcast       More related resources from this episode: Matt and Rose cite these resources and organizations in their conversation: Ministry Architects, Doug Fields, Springtide Research, the Surgeon General's report on Youth Mental Health (2021), and the Barna Report: Pastors Share Top Reasons They've Considered Quitting Ministry in the Past Year (2022) In each episode, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing work. Matt Wiggins brought our attention to Davidson Lifeline, a grassroots organization in Davidson, North Carolina whose mission is to support mental health awareness and suicide prevention in their community.

Catch the final episode in this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, where we've been considering Church After Mars Hill and using The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill as a case study. We've considered a number of aspects of that story:          Patriarchy and mutuality          Whiteness and diversity          Violent imagery and peace making          Toxic cultures  and psychological health          Models of church          Art as transaction and transcendence          The move toward a Tov culture. But as we come to the close of this conversation and the end of this season of the podcast, what are we to do now? Join us for the final installment of Season 4 of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, as host Joel Kiekintveld shares his insightful perspectives. If you've enjoyed this season of Transforming Engagement, the Podcast, please spread the word and share it with your friends! And if you would like to catch up or re-listen to any episode from this season, you can find them all, including show notes and transcripts, at transformingengagement.org/podcast  

We're joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.   Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).   In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.   Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.   We hope you'll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.   Listener resources: Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Pre-order Scot and Laura's follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023 Read Laura Barringer's article, "Willow Creek's Core Meeting: A Response" in Christianity Today. More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

In this episode of "Church After Mars Hill," host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Chelle Stearns to focus on the intersection of art, expression, and theology within the modern Western church.    Many churches invest heavily in elements like worship teams, video production, and visual presentations. However, this often lends itself to one-way communication, prioritizing the leaders and visuals at the front of the room, rather than fostering genuine community-building and open conversations among the congregation.   The conversation centers on the modern church's tendency to view art and worship in a consumer-oriented manner, rather than tapping into their potential to create communal connections.    What if we shifted away from using artistic expression as a transactional or manipulative tool, solely flowing from the stage to the congregation? What if, instead, we invited a communal expression of art, beauty, and wonder - even when it challenges our established beliefs?    By embracing art as a means of encountering the divine, deepening spirituality, and embracing the diverse expressions of beauty within our congregations, churches can create more meaningful and transformative experiences for their congregants and the community they serve.   Listener Resources: Read works referenced in this conversation: The Return Of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen; The Pastor in the Secular Age by Andrew Root; The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patitsas View Rembrandt's The Return of the Prodigal Son If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.  

In this episode, we explore a new perspective on church with Dr. Dwight Friesen, who asks us: "How do I start where I am? Wherever I am, how do I discover being church here?" Instead of viewing church as a megachurch attracting distant members, we shift our focus to being church in our own context. We're honored to be joined by Dr. Dwight Friesen, an Associate Professor of practical theology at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, who is dedicated to rediscovering the true essence of being a church within a specific place and neighborhood.   To provide some context, Dwight shares his initial connection with Mark Driscoll, the founder of Mars Hill, during the mid-1990s when they were both starting as pastors in Seattle. They even considered merging their churches at one point, but theological differences and subsequent events led them to go their separate ways.   While Mark Driscoll went on to build a megachurch at Mars Hill, Dwight and his partner Lynette took a different approach. They emphasized the significance of community, proximity, and actively listening to the needs of their neighborhood. Instead of imposing a predetermined "church model," Dwight deliberately focused on understanding and addressing the specific needs of their immediate community.   This conversation challenges the traditional megachurch model, which often relies heavily on attracting new members for economic prosperity. Instead, it encourages us to explore how to be church in our current contexts and locations. By paying attention to the culture and listening to the needs of people in our own neighborhoods, we can bear witness to systemic forms of oppression and transformation. This awareness calls for a different kind of faithfulness—an active presence that engages with the realities of the moment.   Dwight raises a thought-provoking question: "How do we discover what it means to participate in what God is doing here without assuming what the good news should look like, but rather being open to discovery?"  

As we continue to examine the case study that is Mars Hill Church, we're asking a couple of questions in this conversation:  First, how do we create faith communities that know what abuses of power look like and call those behaviors out?  And second, how do we build environments that seek to be psychologically healthy for everyone? Our guest this week is Doug Shirley, EdD, core faculty with The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology with expertise in counseling, Divinity, and pastoral community counseling. Doug's passion lies in understanding and improving the emotional, relational, and spiritual lives of individuals in helping and healing professions. The sheer number of individuals seeking help for mental health issues following the Mars Hill debacle underscores the unhealthy nature of the church environment. Our conversation explores strategies for creating psychologically healthy spaces within faith communities, emphasizing the importance of two-way dialogue, accountability, openness, and honesty.  Listener resources: This conversation references: Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse; The Priest in Community by Urban T. Holmes, III; The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero; Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Trauma and Recovery and Truth and Repair by Judith Herman, MD; the words and thoughts of Dr. Steve Call from The Reconnect Institute, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Resmaa Menakem, Brian McLaren, Dr. Tali Hariston, and Parker Palmer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.  

Mars Hill Church pastor Mark Driscoll was known to portray Jesus as a warrior or an "ultimate fighter" in his teachings. He wasn't the only one. In the Western church, our society's obsession with violence and militarism has found its way into our theology in subtle - and not so subtle - ways. But is this an accurate portrayal of Christ, the Prince of Peace?    This week, host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Joel Aguilar to talk about how we can construct our churches in a non-violent way by looking at scripture through the lens of the forgiving victim.   Supporting resources: Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast Dr. Aguilar presents the theories of mimetic desire and rivalry from René Girard in this conversation. You can read more about Girard's life and work here. Other resources cited for further exploration: read the works of James Alison, Catholic theologian, priest, and author, and check out A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

As we continue our conversation about "Church After Mars Hill," host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by guest Dr. Ron Ruthruff, Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at The Seattle School of Psychology and Theology. When examining the story of Mars Hill, there exists an underexplored theme of race and Whiteness. In his book "After Whiteness," Dr. Willie Jennings defines Whiteness as the embodiment of a self-sufficient man who embodies possession, mastery, and control. Driscoll's calls to White men tapped into not only male rage but also White rage, reflecting the desire for control and dominance. By exploring the missing elements in the Mars Hill discussion, our discussion aims to shed light on the intersection of Whiteness and the power dynamics within evangelical church culture. Ron and Joel delve into the profound significance of addressing race and Whiteness within our systems, communities, and theological frameworks. They shed light on the far-reaching implications this exploration holds for the future of the church in a post-Mars Hill era. Through thought-provoking discussions, we're challenged to move beyond the safety of homogeneity and embrace differences within our faith communities. Listener resources: Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast Check out some of the books and publications mentioned in this episode:  After Whiteness by Willie James Jennings / The Christian Imagination by Willie James Jennings / Can "White" People Be Saved: Reflections on Missions and Whiteness - a lecture from Willie James Jennings / Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin / Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery by Mark Charles and Soong-Chan Rah / The Wolf Shall Dwell with the Lamb by Eric Law / Sister Outsider: Essays and Speeches by Audre Lorde / The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin / My Grandmother's Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies by Resmaa Menakem / Stamped from the Beginning: A Graphic History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi and Joel Christian Gill  / Stand Your Ground: Black Bodies and the Justice of God by Kelly Brown Douglas If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

We continue our conversation about Church After Mars Hill with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman, the Northwest Regional Leader of the Vineyard USA denomination and Associate Director at the Center for Transforming Engagement.   Dr. Swetman was previously interviewed for Christianity Today's podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" in Episode 5, titled "The Things We Do to Women."   The discussion revolves around the exposed vision of Mark Driscoll, former pastor of Mars Hill, which revealed a patriarchal and toxic theology concerning the roles of men and women. Dr. Swetman shares her experience in providing pastoral care for individuals who had left Mars Hill and discusses the importance of building faith communities that promote mutuality.   Tune in as we explore ways to create faith communities that are inclusive and promote mutual respect among all members. This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media's wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.    Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we're seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding. Listener resources: Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast Check out some of the books that Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman references in this episode: The Apostle Paul and Women in the Church by Don Williams, The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr, Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez, and Paul and Gender by Cynthia Long Westfall. You also may want to check out women's advocacy organizations, CBE International and The Junia Project. Click here to read Dr. Rose Madrid-Swetman's interview with Andrea Sielaff, Program Evaluation Manager at Center for Transforming Engagement, after Rose's appearance on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast. You can listen to Rose's contributions to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill in episodes "The Things We Do To Women" and "The Bobby Knight Problem." If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

The term "deconstruction" is widely used in the Evangelical and post-Evangelical community, but what does it actually mean and what purpose does it serve? How does it relate to addressing the pain, anger, and disillusionment experienced in the wake of the fall of trusted leaders and churches like Mars Hill? Furthermore, how does it influence our relationship with institutions, communities, and our own spirituality?   In the first episode of this season, host Joel Kiekintveld engages in a conversation with Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School for Theology and Psychology and co-founder of the Center for Transforming Engagement. With his unique perspective as a leader of a faith-centered institution in Seattle, Derek sheds light on the cyclic process of deconstruction and rebuilding at the institutional level, within our communities, and in our own faith journeys.   This season of the Transforming Engagement Podcast is a response to Christianity Today Media's wildly popular podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.    As listeners of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, we could take two approaches: one as a mere observation of a captivating soap opera, providing voyeuristic pleasure through the shocking and scandalous true story of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. The other option is to utilize it as an opportunity for introspection, allowing us to examine our own involvement in personality-driven spirituality and dysfunctional church systems, seeking lessons from Mars Hill's downfall to shape our future.   Hosted by contributor and pastor Joel Kiekintveld, we're seeking to learn what we can from the case study that is Mars Hill Church in an effort to uncover what the church looks like after Mars Hill. After the destruction left by the collapse of that Seattle-based mega-church, the conversations in this podcast season are our offerings towards a rebuilding. Listener resources: Read the transcript from this episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.  

In this final episode of our Clergy Burnout series, co-hosts Dr. J. Derek McNeil and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, revisit the many rich conversations they've had with our guests this season and highlight some of the key takeaways for pastors and leaders. We hope these conversations have supported you as you strive to understand the identity and purpose of your faith community in the midst of changing contexts.   Thank you for listening! As you engage with these podcast episodes, we'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas for future topics you'd like to hear us engage. You can send your feedback to us at transforming@theseattleschool.edu.  

This week we're talking to Bishop Melissa Skelton, who currently serves as Bishop Provisional for the Diocese of Olympia. In our conversation, we look at understanding the identity of your church, not only at the level of your local congregation but within your denomination or your greater faith tradition. Bishop Skelton highlights the importance of understanding the heritage and origin story of your congregation and your denomination, and how to sift through stories from the past to discern which are useful to telling our stories now.   

When you set out to determine your organization's identity, there are a few key questions to ask yourself that go beyond your mission or vision statements. This week, we're joined by CEO and founder of Motis, Rick Beaton, PhD.    Rick brings his expertise in people, culture, leadership and management, corporate identity, belief systems, and social psychology to provide a framework for taking an honest look at your organization to discover its internal and external identity. Each week, we ask our guests to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Rick calls our attention to West Texas Counseling & Guidance, a group that provides mental health services to underprivileged people at scale in northwest Texas and into New Mexico. You can learn more about supporting their work here: https://www.sanangelocounseling.org/

Kate and Derek are joined by longtime friend, Linda Wagener, PhD, who is the Chief Culture Officer at Blink. With over 35 years of experience in organizational leadership, training, and research, her role with Blink is to build a resilient work culture that enhances employee engagement and productivity.   Linda's expertise in cultivating and preserving a values-centered and unified workplace culture can be applied across organizational types. If you are in church leadership, we think you'll discover some fundamentals to glean from a corporate setting and apply to your church organization.   Each week, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good in the world. Linda calls our attention to US Fish and Wildlife, the federal government agency whose primary responsibility is to manage fish and wildlife resources in the public trust for people today and future generations. You can learn more about supporting their work through the volunteer opportunities on their website.

Welcome back to Episode 2 of Season 3 of Transforming Engagement, The Podcast. This season, we're talking about organizational identity and the role of the leader.   In this episode, we spoke with Pastor Gail Song Bantum about her identity as a second-generation Korean woman and as a pastor and leader, and Quest's identity as a congregation in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle. As a leader of a "multi church," Gail Song Bantum describes how her identity impacts her congregation's identity and, in turn, how it is understood both by congregation members and the community at large.   In each episode, we ask our guest to highlight an organization that is doing work. Gail Song Bantum brought our attention to Good Foot Arts Collective, an organization with a passionate focus on ending violence before it begins, providing domestic abuse awareness and youth violence prevention advocacy through Arts Education. 

We're starting a new series on the podcast about organizational identity - a topic that, co-host Dr. J. Derek McNeil admits at the beginning of this episode - can sound somewhat dry. But here's why it's important:   Most of us have some sense of our personal identities. But when you're leading a group of people, whether that's a small town congregation or a multinational corporation, you as a leader need to consider your group's collective identity.    When a group discovers their organizational identity, its members can unite behind a common purpose and shared goals to confront problems, engage challenges, and make real impact – together.    In this first episode of Season 3, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, discuss their work in supporting churches in their work to discover their organizational identity. In the midst of shifting contexts, this work is more important than ever. What is the mission of your church? What are you called to be? Who belongs to your church - and how are you creating a sense of belonging for them?   If you are the leader of a church or faith-based organization working to re-discover your church's identity and serve your congregants and community better, we think this episode will be especially valuable to you.    As you listen to this season, please let us know what you think. We value your thoughts and questions!

In this final episode of our Clergy Burnout series, co-hosts Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, DMin, revisit the many rich conversations they've had with our guests this season.    In these conversations, we heard new perspectives, learned new things, and confirmed so much of the research that's out there right now on clergy burnout. It's real. It's present. We hope that this has been a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations have given you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your faith community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.    What's next? We invite you to join us in our fall session of Way of Life, which focuses on small shifts in our daily rhythms to bring more purpose, intention, and mindfulness to our lives as we lean into our calling. Enrollment is open through September 30, 2022 on our website at transformingengagement.org/online-courses    You can also explore our other online courses:    In Centering Prayer, you can learn to intentionally cultivate a richer prayer life and relationship with the Divine. In Career & Call, you'll learn a process of discovery and discernment that you can use over and over again in making life decisions both now and in the future as it relates to your calling.

In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we're joined by Lisa Sharon Harper, founder and president of Freedom Road, which helps organizations in multiple sectors do justice. She's a speaker, writer, and most recently the author of Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World. She also hosts the Freedom Road podcast and co-hosts The FOUR podcast.   Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this episode digs into the systemic and cultural norms that have influenced the roles of our pastors. Lisa begins by defining the role of a pastor, which she says is to "not only to help us to connect with God on a personal level, but to help us all to understand our relationship with God and how that needs to impact our relationship with each other and the rest of creation." If our pastors can truly focus on protecting the image of God, particularly in the "least of these" in our communities - and if we, as congregants, will support them in doing so - then many of the pressures that lead to burnout could be abated.    In this conversation, Lisa invites us to consider the impacts of a Western version of Christianity and reimagine what the Kingdom of God truly looks like, starting with honoring and defending the image of God in all humans.   Each episode, we're asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, Lisa calls our attention to several organizations:   Red Letter Christians Justice Revival Be the Bridge * Christians for Social Action *

In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we're joined by a panel of three individuals who have recently left the pastorate. Karlene Clark, Trevor Grindle, and Martha Wood vulnerably share their experience with burnout and the pressures that ultimately led to them choosing to walk away from their leadership roles.    Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion explores themes of doubt, grief, illness, and trauma, and the incongruity that is felt when encountering very real, human experiences while trying to live up to the expectations of a church leadership role.   We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders. 

In this episode of our Clergy Burnout series, we're joined by writer and journalist Anne Helen Petersen, to take a look at clergy burnout through systemic and cultural perspectives.   Co-hosted by Kate Rae Davis, MDiv, and Rose Madrid Swetman, this discussion centers around the warning signs of burnout and the potential impact that addressing burnout - or letting it go unnoticed - can have on pastors and their communities. We discuss practical ways that pastors can foster greater awareness and care for their own physical and mental health, and how congregants can also grow in awareness to step in and support their pastors.    We hope that this is a space where pastors and clergy will feel seen and known. For those of you who are not pastors but perhaps are part of a faith community or congregation, we hope these conversations will be enlightening and give you a greater understanding and empathy for the leaders in your community, and prompt questions as to how we can support these faithful leaders.    Each episode, we're asking our guest to highlight an organization that is doing good work. This week, Anne points us to Mutual Aid, which are grassroots, local organizations committed to freely providing funds and resources to community members in need. Find your local Mutual Aid by typing "Mutual Aid (your city)" in your search engine.