A befuddled student asked apologist Wes Huff about how to make sense of the Trinity. Huff’s answer has gone viral (also here and here). Obviously, Christians are enjoying and sharing Huff’s answer. But how helpful of an answer is it? Is this an answer that is going to help a thinking Christian love God with all her mind? Does it point her to the relevant biblical teachings? Unfortunately, as Michael and I explain, for a number of reasons Huff’s answer is not helpful to the informed, Scripture-loving truth-seeker. Just after the 48 minutes mark (52 minutes in the video below) I challenge Wes Huff to a debate on whether the one God in the New Testament or the Father alone. For these reasons, he probably will not debate me. But the Christian public who relies on Huff’s Trinity “answers” needs some better information, and to hear the unitarian Christian side of the case. If he does decide to accept the challenge, here is my recently updated starter pack for understanding my views. As we recorded this video, I thought that perhaps it’s unfair to critique Huff’s Trinity thoughts based on an off-the-cuff answer. So in the next two episodes I’m going to interact with two other videos where he states his views at length and fully rehearsed. Perhaps those will fare better? Here’s the video version: https://www.youtube.com/live/6Ipw3TUSVyE?si=X81aJZpvMt36OmMh Links for this episode: Michael Temperato’s YouTube, Tiktok, Instagram Tuggy, What is the Trinity? Stanford Encyclopedia, “Trinity” What Would It Take To Convert You Back To Trinitarianism? ? R. T. Mullins’s interview of William Lane Craig on his own Trinity theory Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology? Unitarian Christian Alliance Youtube channel Unitarian Christian Alliance Unitarian Christian Alliance – Conference near Sydney, Australia, March 2026 podcast 137 – Daniel Whitby’s “Mystery and Revelation Inconsistent” The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel – Dale Tuggy, Benjamin D. Sommer on Gregory of Nyssa’s On Not Three Gods podcast 302 – The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment podcast 262 – The Trinity before Nicaea? podcast 249 – Tuggy vs. Brown debate – The God of the Bible is the Father alone McIntosh, ed. One God, Three Persons, Four Views podcast 388 – Yes, “the Trinity” is a Problem – Part 2 podcast 387 – Yes, “the Trinity” is a Problem – Part 1 The Standard Opening Move Why I’m Not a Buddhist – Dr. Dale Tuggy podcast 76 – Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho – Part 3 podcast 75 – Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho – Part 2 podcast 74 – Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho – Part 1 This week’s thinking music is “Going Rogue” by Grumplefunk. Other videos in this UCA series: https://www.youtube.com/live/d0nXXVtuU3c?si=gCfoT5pqfw_3_pR9 https://www.youtube.com/live/1lkBSlYRa3E?si=WpCjMtSPndZE4gqm
This final installment includes the cross-examination times, audience Q & A, and our closing statements, of course with my commentary. The cross-examination times are revealing. As we heard in part two, I presented Dr. White with an argument that his interpretation of John 1 implies that there are at least two gods and so should be rejected. In the cross-examination here, I ask which premise he rejects and why, and he says that he rejects this one, because it assumes unitarianism, or that God can be only one Person: 4. To have the divine essence is to be a god. (true by the definition of “divine essence”) But as I explain in this episode, that premise doesn’t assume unitarianism at all, and in fact some trinitarians agree with it, holding that the Father is a god, the Son is a god, and the Spirit is a god, but also that they’re the same god. Really, White’s favorite “assuming unitarianism” argument is just an irrelevant ad hominem. Also, the lexicons exchange in my cross-ex time has to be heard to be believed. I wrap this series up by explaining which side won this debate and why. Here are the images I refer to in my closing statement which summarize three clashing narratives about Trinity doctrines: what apologists say, what theologians say, and what historians say, that is, what one learns from a deep dive into all the primary sources up to about the year 400 (in other words, the truth). (Thanks to Mark Cain for creating these!) If you want to hear more about these pre-trinitarian theologies check out podcasts 381 and 384 linked below. Links for this episode: James White and fans take note: here are six places in which I obviously do not merely assume that God can only be one Person: podcast 189 – The unfinished business of the Reformation, book chapter: “The Unfinished Business of the Reformation,” podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?”, opening statement here: podcast 377 – Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? White vs. Tuggy – Part 1, my opening statement in this debate book, podcast 372 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 1 podcast 384 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s – Early 200s and Early Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold” podcast 383 – New Zealand Conference Church History Q and A with Sean Finnegan and Dale Tuggy – Part 2 podcast 382 – New Zealand Conference Church History Q and A with Sean Finnegan and Dale Tuggy – Part 1 Transfigured podcast interview on the debate book podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know This week’s thinking music is “Gemini Instrumental” by Pipe Choir.
In this second of three episodes, we’ll review the rest of Dr. White’s opening statement and the two rebuttals. In several cases I push the discussion past what we were able to do in the confines of the debate. Topics covered include: White’s claim that the correct text of John 1:18 is “unique God” rather than “unique Son” and how his interpretation but not mine requires a decision about the correct text here White’s claim that the words ho on in John 1:18 support his interpretation White’s claim that the author uses the past imperfect tense of “is” to communicate the timeless existence of the Word White’s inability to understand what it could mean for God’s word to be embodied in the man Jesus White’s many misunderstandings of the interpretation of John 1 I argued for in my opening statement and why this made the debate less useful for the audience. Whether the opening of 1 John 1 supports White’s interpretation of John 1 or mine Why I spent so much time discussing 2nd-3rd c. interpretation of John 1 in my opening. White’s convenient skepticism about early Christian theologies. The misguided idea that competence in New Testament Greek is sufficient to reveal the correct interpretation of John 1. White’s appeal to John 17:5 as obviously presupposing Jesus literal pre-human existence. How something which isn’t literally a self can be said to be with (pros) God. What is meant by “the beginning” in John 1:1. Jesus’s argument in John 10 White’s neglect of the misunderstanding motif in the fourth Gospel My argument (below) that White’s interpretation logically implies that there are two gods, and so should be rejected. whether in the Bible God exists timelessly or at all times White’s irrelevant ad hominem that I only have ever “assumed unitarianism.” Here’s the argument which I gave against White’s interpretation of John 1 which I give in my rebuttal. The point is that White is committed to 1-3 and that 4 is true by the definition of “divine essence.” The rest follows. My response is to deny premise 2. What is White’s response? The Father has the divine essence. (assumed in Jn 1:1b) The Son has the divine essence. (Jn 1:1c, since Word = Son) The Father ? the Son. (Jn 1:1b, since Father & Word differ and Word = Son) To have the divine essence is to be a god. (true by the definition of “divine essence”) The Father is a god. (1, 4) The Son is a god. (2, 4) There are (at least) two gods. (3, 5, 6) (Note: on my debate slide there was a typo at the end of the last line – it cited 7 not line 6.) Links for this episode: Brent Nongbri’s blog Variant Readings (articles) God’s Library: The Archaeology of the Earliest Christian Manuscripts “Reconsidering the Place of Papyrus Bodmer XIV-XV (P75) in the Textual Criticism of the New Testament,” Journal of Biblical Literature 135 (2016), 405-437. [on P66:] “The Limits of Palaeographic Dating of Literary Papyri: Some Observations on the Date and Provenance of P.Bodmer II,” Museum Helveticum 71 (2014), 1-35. podcast 62 – Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John podcast 61 – Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought This week’s thinking music is “Gemini Instrumental” by Pipe Choir. https://youtu.be/h4pBIb9cjVg?si=Tssf6mS-4rHkjQss
I make an exciting announcement at the start of this episode! In this and the following two episodes, I present and comment on my recent debate with Dr. James White. This episode contains my opening statement and part of his. Here is an interpretive paraphrase which summarizes the interpretation I argue for in my opening statement: John 1:1–5 The Early Career of God’s Word When the world was created, God’s Word was with him—not that “he” was someone else. All things came into being through him; not a single thing came into being apart from God’s Word. He was the source of life, a guiding light for all people. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness didn’t overcome it. 1:6–9 Interlude: The Word Didn’t (Fully) Arrive in the Great Prophet John the Baptist God sent a man named John [the Baptist], who came as a witness to testify to that light, so that all might trust in God through his Word. John came to testify to the light but wasn’t himself the Light. The True Light which enlightens everyone was yet to come. 1:10–13 The Further (Pre-Jesus) Career of God’s Word God’s Word was in the world, which came into being through him, yet the world didn’t know him. He came to his own people, the Jews, but they didn’t fully accept him. Of course, he enabled those who received him, trusting him, to become God’s children, born of God, not merely of human blood, will, or flesh. 1:14–16 God’s Word Arrives Fully in the Man Jesus Then God’s Word became a man and lived among us. And we’ve seen Jesus’ glory, that of the unique Son of the Father, one who is full of grace and truth. 1:17–18 – Jesus is an Even Greater Revealer of God than the Great Prophets John and Moses (John the Baptist testified to him: “It was about him that I said, ‘The one coming after me surpasses me, because all along he’s out-ranked me.’ ”) All of us have benefitted from Jesus’ fullness, grace on top of grace. God gave us the law through Moses, but now he’s given us grace and truth through Jesus the Messiah. You can’t see God, but his unique Son who’s close to his heart has shown him to us. If you don’t want to download all of my opening statement slides, the following images should be enough to help you follow my opening statement in this audio version. Links for this episode: How John 1 was intelligible in the first century Dale Tuggy – What John 1 Meant (UCA Conference 2021) (podcast) the host of the debate: Covenant Reformed Baptist Church Jeremiah Nortier’s Apologetics Dog channel Matthew 16:13-20 anachronism St. Patrick’s Bad Analogies [for the Trinity] Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology? podcast 259 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 2 podcast 258 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 1 John A. T. Robinson on “the Word” of John 1 Debating John 1: Eusebius vs. Marcellus John 12:48 – Jesus personifies God’s word (as someone else) Jesus Christ as “The Word of God” in Revelation 19:11-16 Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God Do the Gospels disagree about Jesus and God? Part 1 – Three Options our previous debate: Dale Tuggy and James White debate: “Is Jesus YHWH?” (best quality, with slides) This week’s thinking music is “Gemini Instrumental” by Pipe Choir.
In this lecture, given at the amazing Converge event in Ohio in August of 2025, I first explain the three varieties of early Christian theologies, which I have also discussed here, here, and in my recent debate with James White. I then explain the fully developed catholic views which replaced them over the years 381-681, as the “ecumenical” councils innovated in Christology and theology. Noting the enormous gap between this sort of catholic orthodoxy and what we read in the New Testament, a number of evangelical scholars in the last 40 years or so have developed what I called “Fauxthodox” language, which seems to be intended to be saying what orthodoxy was always asserting, but in simpler language which they argue reflects what is actually taught in the Bible. The main ones I discuss are Larry Hurtado, Richard Bauckham, and N.T. Wright. The problems are: this language seems carefully calibrated to be ambiguous, it is not obviously biblical, and there is no reason to think that this language is equivalent to the official “catholic” or “orthodox” views, which I summarize like this: Christ is a fully divine Person in God the Trinity who is eternally caused to exist by (but not created by) the Father (a different divine Person in God), sharing his divinity. When Incarnate Christ is one Person with two natures, a divine nature and a human nature which are unchanged by their union. He got his human nature from his mother; before that there was no more to him than his divine nature—strictly, he is the divine nature. It is his human nature which suffered and died on the cross; his divine nature is incapable of either suffering or dying. Christ, in his divine nature, is incapable of doing any action which is not also the action of the Father and of the Spirit. Christ’s human nature (a human-type of soul plus a human-type of body) is not a human person because, somehow, of its union with the divine nature, i.e. with the Second Person of the Trinity. Thus Christ is now “man” but is not a man (human person). Each nature has its own will and power of choosing, but the human will always submits to the divine one.? If you want to see all my slides, here is the fully produced video from the UCA’s YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/YGdekoOsRLs?si=SBUx6Hn5LdmTTdPN Links for this episode: Catholic Theologian Hans Küng on New Testament theology podcast 384 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s – Early 200s and Early Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold” podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know John 1 Is Not Trinitarian | Dale Tuggy vs James White LIVE Debate! – (livestream: the fully edited video will be out soon on the UCA’s YouTube channel). Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus Larry Hurtado on early Christians’ worship of Jesus podcast 100 – Dr. Larry Hurtado on God in New Testament Theology podcast 228 – Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus – Part 1 podcast 229 – Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus – Part 2 podcast 13 – On Bauckham’s Bargain podcast 214 – Has Bauckham clarified his “divine identity” theory? – Part 2 podcast 213 – Has Bauckham clarified his “divine identity” theory? – Part 1 podcast 124 – a challenge to “Jesus is God” apologists This week’s thinking music is “Soul of Tacoma” by LOPKERJO.
Both of the arguments below are valid. But which one is sound? (By the definition of validity it’s impossible that both are sound.) Argument #1: God can’t be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Therefore, Jesus is not God Argument #2: God can’t be tempted. Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus was not tempted. In this talk I argue that Scripture requires that we endorse the first argument as sound. I then interact with a bunch of standard, what I call “canned,” answers that apologists dish out on these topics. Here is the video version from 21stcr.org. https://youtu.be/MuDXEZyA0Bw?si=-_1BgmLOkcl9g5xY Links for this episode: A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me The biblical Jesus is not fully divine Debate – “Is Jesus Human and not Divine?” – Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date Trinities podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?” Trinities podcast 277 – Was Christ tempted in every way? Trinities podcast 145 – ‘Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies Restitutio Podcast This week’s thinking music is “My Town” by Ketsa.
In this talk I answer three questions: Was Jesus tempted? What is it to be tempted? What can Jesus’ temptations teach us? You are invited to reflect on your own calling (if you know it) and on what temptations are barriers to your walking that path God has put before you. If you prefer the video here is the version produced by Sharon Gill at 21st Century Reformation: https://youtu.be/jU71GAWB1Nc?si=yAe_7lHSoLlkWpU1 Links for this episode: podcast 277 – Was Christ tempted in every way? Jesus’s temptations and ours a conversation about the differences between God and Jesus podcast 339 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 1 podcast 340 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 2 This week’s thinking music is “Take it Out” by Ketsa.
In this episode I open by briefly explaining the gap this year in my podcasting. Then you’ll hear my presentation from the first ever New Zealand UCA Conference. Longstanding catholic traditions teach that Jesus is both fully divine, having the sort of divinity enjoyed by the Father Almighty, and fully human, being “like us in all things but sin.” The problem with this is that the godman idea they’re selling implies numerous contradictions. Since no contradiction (statement of form P and not-P) can be true, even one implied contradiction shows a godman to be impossible. In this lecture I spell out fourteen contradictions between divinity (having all the essential divine attributes) and what the New Testament teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ. Listen all the way to the end, and I’ll tell you what has happened with this lecture since I presented it in New Zealand: I will share some exciting news! Divine attribute Attribute of the New Testament Jesus When discussed Essential Immortality? Died 7:05 Essentially Untemptable? Was tempted 9:16 Essentially Perfect in Virtue Grew in virtue 11:15 Essentially Omnipresent Moved 15:15 Essentially Unlimited Knowledge Limited Knowledge of 18:35 Essentially Unable to Trust God as Someone Subject to God Put his Trust in God 20:27 Essentially Unable to Sleep Slept 22:33 Essentially not under (subject to) Anyone Under (subject to) God 25:51 Essentially Unable to be Obligated to Worship Anyone Obligated to Worship God 31:38 Essentially Unable to Pray Prayed 34:44 Essentially Unable to be Obligated to Obey God Obligated to Obey God 37:28 Essentially Uncreated As a Human, Part of God’s Creation 39:40 The Ultimate Source Creator Not the Ultimate Source Creator 41:26 Essentially Perfectly Good Non-Essentially Various Degrees of Good 44:15 If you want to see my slides, here is the UCA’s video version: https://youtu.be/l_ZeKzAvaYg?si=eRbRUNyw1q4C2IjL Links for this episode: A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me (Revised) Adam Pelser, “Temptation, Virtue, and the Character of Christ“ podcast 277 – Was Christ tempted in every way? Jesus’s temptations and ours podcast 277 – Was Christ tempted in every way? podcast 146 – Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament Tuggy, “Jesus as an exemplar of faith in the New Testament“ Kapusta, Scripturae Contra Trinitatem – The Epistle to the Hebrews: An Anthology of Quotations, Alternative Expositions, and Critical Commentaries on Common Trinitarian Proof-Texts Gaston, “Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 cite Psalm 102:25-27?“ a reading of Philippians 2:5-11 podcast 259 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 2 podcast 258 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 1 podcast 235 – The Case Against Preexistence Restitutio podcast 612 Colossians 1.16: Old Creation or New Creation? (Sean Finnegan) Trinity to One God: Dr. Dale Tuggy’s Journey “Trinty,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy “Samuel Clarke,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy This week’s thinking music is “Crunch” by Beat Mekanik.
When you’re from a trinitarian Christian tradition, whether or not a doctrine of the Trinity is really in the Bible is more than an intellectual question. For one thing, there is the fear: am I angering God by asking these questions? And another huge factor is the peer pressure: it’s part of catholic traditions to harshly exclude, with little to no discussion, people who will not pay lip service to “the doctrine of the Trinity.” On the other hand, there are Christians who’ve always had the blessing of being in a biblical unitarian group like the Christadelphians or the Church of God General Conference. And then there are those who are blessed to be in a unitarian Christian group, but it is a high-control one, and they have to carefully work their way free from it. In this new book, you’ll read the testimonies of eight unitarian Christians, each with a unique story. If you’re on any of these journeys, you’ll find things to relate to here. This episode is my interview with contributor and instigator Seneca Harbin, my wife Candise Tuggy, who contributed a chapter, and Anna Brown, who helped in the publication of this book for Living Hope International Ministries. The subject is heavy, but as you’ll hear Seneca and his co-authors approach it with faith, hope, love, and a good sense of humor. Links for this episode: The Cost of Truth: Stories of Biblical Unitarian Christians Unitarian Christian Alliance UCA 2025 UK International Conference Converge Restitutio Podcast 569 The Cost of Truth (Seneca Harbin) Church of God General Conference Seth Ross @ Church of God General Conference Christian Centered Counseling UCA Podcast 33 My Trinitarian Best Friend – Amanda Dunn (Part 1) UCA Podcast 34 My Homeschooling Nail-biter – Amanda Dunn (Part 2) podcast 357 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 2 podcast 356 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 1 podcast 333 – The Arguments of “God’s Death” Susanne Lakin – Biblical Anthropomorphism – Evidence of a Unipersonal God Anna Brown – No Mere Man: Biblical Anthropology as Response to Psilanthropism – UCA Conference 2022 John Schoenheit @ Spirit & Truth podcast 232 – Trinity Club Orientation https://youtu.be/9LA9Uq-8xMc?si=RehuBxIlI-GO8dpk Bill Schlegel’s blog Land and Bible Bill Schlegel’s podcast: The One God Report Compass Christian Church in Louisville, KY Pastor Will Barlow’s blog Study Driven Faith blog Restitutio 313 Questioning Way International Doctrines (William Barlow) https://youtu.be/_SPL7To0M3Y?si=oy93SLos_WX80JLP Living Hope Community Church in Latham, NY Dale Tuggy – 10 Ways to Kill Unitarian Christianity This week’s thinking music is “Peaceful” by Mr. Smith.
In this second part (part 1 here) I interact with the rest of this discussion between Dr. Sean McDowell and Dr. Fred Sanders. I do register some significant agreements with them, but on the whole, my criticism from last time stands: their apologetic defense of “the doctrine of the Trinity” is not anywhere near sufficient to rebut or refute the arguments presented by today’s unitarian Christians. I also explain some historical problems with various things they’re saying. Detailed knowledge of early Christian theologies and Christologies disrupts a number of common trinitarian narratives and assumptions. Questions addressed include: Was the doctrine of the Trinity copied from pagan religions and/or Greek philosophy? Can one read pretty much any pre-Nicene written source and find that the author is trinitarian? Was the doctrine of the Trinity established at the council at Nicea in 325? Was new creedal language produced by the council at Nicea a breakthrough in theological clarity? Why is there no clear “Trinity passage” anywhere in the Bible? And is this actually a good thing? At the end I offer to help. https://youtu.be/XEr7Em9wkV8?si=OnRHO39R_GPuMUWx Links for this episode: Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“ podcast 115 – the aborted council at Serdica in 343 podcast 114 – the recycled creed (342-359) podcast 113 – the council at Antioch in 341 podcast 31 – Dr. William Hasker on the “Arian” Controversy podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea podcast 29 – Arius Prestige, God in Patristic thought https://youtu.be/KxYtTQDo1dA?si=hfjRj1o8CYy44pds podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God” Tuggy, What is the Trinity? 10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity Clarke, The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity Biddle, The Apostolical and True Opinion Concerning the Holy Trinity podcast 348 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 2 – Two Thieves and Three Arguments Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God Unitarian Christian Alliance Church of God General Conference Spirit and Truth podcast 357 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 2 podcast 356 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 1 https://youtu.be/4OgtkJe5AyI?si=9pTEHjSxB6zeF7C0 Dustin Smith’s The Biblical Unitarian Podcast Sean Finnegan’s Restitutio Podcast McIntosh, ed. – Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy – One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity This week’s thinking music is “Discipline” by Mr. Smith.
In this episode I, a Biola University alum (B.A., Philosophy) interact with this video by two current Biola University professors, Dr. Fred Sanders, and Dr. Sean McDowell. Their goals are to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is coherent (not self-contradictory) and that it fits well with Scripture. Issues they discuss include: What about the fact that the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible? Does the Old Testament support the doctrine of the Trinity? If the Father eternally generates the Son, does this imply that the Son is not fully divine, since he lacks the divine attribute of aseity (independent existence)? If the Father is divine, the Son is divine, and the Spirit is divine, and those are truly three–none is identical to either of the others–isn’t that tritheism? Understanding “who God is” through salvation history. Biblical language about God’s “Spirit” or “spirit” or “Holy Spirit.” In my commentary I point out that Dr. McDowell and Dr. Sanders are for the most part avoiding harder objections and issues pressed by unitarian Christians like me. When harder objections are brought up, their answers are lacking. In particular, the biblical problems are much, much harder then they are assuming. How does the Bible teach that the one God is the Trinity when it seems to clearly teach that the one God is the Father, the one formerly called “Yahweh”? How does the Bible teach the full deity of Jesus when it straightforwardly presents him as having limitations which God must lack? They also ignore that different, incompatible doctrines, such as one-self and three-self Trinity theories all offer the same traditional language–thus, repeating that language does not suffice to clearly communicate a trinitarian theology. Their talk of “the doctrine of the Trinity” mistakenly presupposes that theologians loyal to trinitarian traditions are teaching the same things. They are not. In the next episode I interact with the remainder of their presentation. Links for this episode: podcast 252 – Fred Sanders on Seeing the Trinity in Scripture, and his Secret podcast 193 – Review of Sanders’s The Deep Things of God – Part 2 podcast 192 – Review of Sanders’s The Deep Things of God – Part 1 podcast 194 – God: One Person or Three? Sanders vs. Buzzard debate Dustin Smith’s The Biblical Unitarian Podcast Sean Finnegan’s Restitutio Podcast Sanders, The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything (2nd ed.) Tuggy, “Trinity,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Baber, “Trinity,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy Dustin Smith – The Plural of Majesty podcast 11 – Tertullian the unitarian – Trinities Cartwright, “On the Logical Problem of the Trinity” Date and Tuggy, Is Jesus Human and Not Divine? Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“ podcast 330 – Dr. Joshua Sijuwade on the monarchy of the Father McIntosh, ed. – Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy – One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity podcast 189 – The unfinished business of the Reformation Craig, “Is God the Son Begotten in His Divine Nature?” podcast 248 – How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament Loke-Tuggy debate: Does the NT Teach that Jesus is Truly Divine? The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale’s opening statement podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?” podcast 260 – How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian podcast 384 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s – Early 200s and Early Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold” podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know the concept of a triune God an anachronism in the first three centuries podcast 26 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 2 podcast 25 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 1 https://youtu.be/ky2SaHscSIo?si=l398QxWRUvix9o1l podcast 271 – Does your Trinity theory require relative identity? the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity This week’s thinking music is “Ridgeway Drive” by Mr. Smith.
In this second part (first part here) we hear the rest of this podcast by Cold Case Christianity apologist and former cold case detective J. Warner Wallace. In this part he tries to define “the doctrine of the Trinity” by quoting a portion of the so-called “Athanasian Creed.” He then argues that this doctrine is necessary for understanding the atonement, and gives his version of the philosophical argument that God could not be a single someone because then he would fail to be perfect in love. I critique these arguments, then share four of the many facts which led me to reconsider my position on the Bible and “the doctrine of the Trinity.” I end by recommending four good sources for a student of Scripture who is trying to figure out whether or not the Bible teaches a Trinity doctrine: biblicalunitarian.com, the REV translation, and Dr. Dustin Smith’s Biblical Unitarian Podcast. I also discuss Mr. Wallace’s habit of referring to “the triune nature of God,” explaining why some trinitarians affirm and others deny that divinity implies tripersonality. Has Wallace shown that the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine? Let us know what you think in the comments below or in the trinities podcast Facebook Group. Links for this episode: podcast 2 – the “Athanasian Creed” J.N.D. Kelly, The Athanasian Creed Tuggy, “Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection” – a general refutation of a whole range of arguments from divine perfections, e.g. love, against unitarian theologies. podcast 286 – Is the Trinity Essential? – Three Views podcast 63 – Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58 – Trinities McIntosh, Ed., One God, Three Persons, Four Views – a four way debate between Branson, Craig, Hasker, and Tuggy. Kermit Zarley on “My Lord and my God.” This week’s thinking music is “Bad Guys” by Dirk Dehler. https://youtu.be/6YHjvkTbJuI?si=3d_cwIm4x0rm2GBk
In this and the next episode I engage with an episode by Cold Case Christianity apologist J. Warner Wallace called “Why is the Trinity an Essential Doctrine?“ (Also here. Alternate title: “Is the Trinity Contradictory?“) We first hear him explain how crime-solving police detectives reason using Inference to the Best Explanation, or what some call abductive reasoning. This is an approach I endorse; among other places I have made use of it here and here and here. But as you’ll hear, Mr. Wallace abandons this method entirely when it comes to “the doctrine of the Trinity.” Topics in this first part include: The objection that the word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible, and the much stronger objection that the idea of tripersonal God isn’t there. Inference to the best explanation, and how that method of reasoning would be done regarding “the doctrine of the Trinity.” In the New Testament do we see Jesus worshiped as God? The Jewish background of the New Testament and Jesus’ own Jewish monotheism. The Old Testament idea of the creator as being the ultimate source of the cosmos and how this is not compatible with being the instrument through which the one creator acted. His argument that the Bible obviously implies that the one God is a Trinity based on Yahweh-only qualities: omnipotence (really: being the creator), omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, and being referred to with the word “God.” Whether the New Testament authors believe the Holy Spirit to be to be a divine person in addition to the Father and the Son. Links for this episode: Cold Case Christianity God’s Crime Scene: A Cold-Case Detective Examines the Evidence for a Divinely Created Universe What is the Trinity? the evolution of my views on the Trinity Dale’s publications at PhilPapers, Academia.edu, and Google Scholar podcast 126 – What is an evangelical? With Kermit Zarley “Trinity,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Dale Tuggy and James White debate: “Is Jesus YHWH?” McIntosh, ed., Branson, Craig, Hasker, and Tuggy: One God, Three Persons, Four Views podcast 232 – Trinity Club Orientation Dale Tuggy – Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold” – Mainstream Christian Theologies – Late 100’s to Early 200’s Dale Tuggy – Christian theologies in the year 240John 17 posts podcast 227 – Who Should Christians Worship? Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?: The New Testament proskuneo podcast 259 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 2 podcast 258 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 1 podcast 26 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 2 podcast 25 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 1 What John 1 Meant lecture (blog post) a reading of Philippians 2:5-11 podcast 224 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 – God and “God” in the Bible Scriptures discussed include: Acts 5:3-5; Mark 12:28-34; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 8:40; John 17:1-3; Matthew 2:11; Isaiah 44:24; John 1:1-3; Job 33:4; Mark 13:32; Matthew 24:36; John 4:25; John 16:30; 2 Samuel 20:14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; 1 Kings 8:27; Matthew 18:20; Psalm 139:7-12; Romans 15:30. This week’s thinking music is “Bad Guys” by Dirk Dehler.
In this episode you’ll hear my presentation from the October 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock, Arkansas. In it I explain the theological landscape from the late 100s through the early 200s using the words of some writers in that era: the author of the Refutation of All Heresies (attributed by some to Hippolytus), Theodotus of Byzantium (as quoted by Epiphanius), Noetus of Smyrna and Zephyrinus (as reported in the Refutation). I discuss gnostic “possessionist” Christologies, Dynamic Monarchianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Logos Theories, a.k.a. unitarian subordinationism, and the fallacy committed by trinitarian apologists who appeal to pre-Nicene authors as being trinitarian. I then discuss the views of some “early” authors which trinitarian apologists often appeal to: Athenagoras of Athens and Melito of Sardis. I show you how to refute any claim that some early author is a trinitarian using these three requirements for being trinitarian: T1. The one God and the Trinity are one and the same. T2. Each of these by himself is fully divine: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. T3. None of these just is either of the others: Father, Son, Spirit. Each and every known theologian in this period fails to have at least one of these requirements for being trinitarian. That is why the trinitarian “gold” projected onto these early texts by trinitarian apologists ends up being non-trinitarian “fool’s gold.” Finally, when you realize that our surviving sources from this era are by Logos theorists, you may infer that most Christians in this era were Logos theorists. I explain why this is a mistake. Here is AI-image-riddled video version at the UCA YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/KxYtTQDo1dA?si=Ytbd5dOPrpfVtlRI Links for this episode: podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know Video version of podcast 381: Dale Tuggy at the 2024 UK International Conference https://youtu.be/d9W_KjktIdk?si=MIvrjjVeg4Phod8j Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology? Litwa, trans., Refutation of All Heresies Thomas Gaston, at the 2024 UK International Conference: “Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology” https://youtu.be/UsbRKiw6Jmc?si=0XFCO06bUcdHXEt8 Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in New Zealand: “An Honest Evaluation of Evidence for the Deity of Christ” https://youtu.be/tHsG7T0gNZw?si=tIo-dX58IRhfBNSO Susanne Lakin at the 2024 UCA Conference in Arkansas: “Biblical Anthropomorphism – Evidence of a Unipersonal God” https://youtu.be/JsOBFbUcB98?si=vUkpsymqNxGZ5BL5 Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock: “Isaiah 9:6 Explained: A Theophoric Approach” https://youtu.be/mtJxn39zPVM?si=zjfBZpDQgzjbEl3F This week’s thinking music is “I Got to Go Now (Instrumental)” by Anthem of Rain.
At the start of this episode I have a very important announcement! Then you’ll hear day 2 – November 24, 2024 – of pastor Sean Finnegan and I fielding church history questions for New Zealand conference attendees. Topics include: the only really trinitarian-sounding text in the New Testament (Matthew 28:19), the formation of the biblical canon, some ancient books which are not in any current-day Christian canon, books in the Catholic and Orthodox Bible but not in the Protestant ones, why some of these non-Protestant books can be useful for New Testament interpretation, the influences of Greek philosophy of catholic theologies, whether or not the idea of a tripersonal God is in pre-Christian pagan religions, the conservative nature of so-called fourth-century “Arianism” and where that name comes from, Arianism and Islam, how it came to be that “Arian” Christianity died out, present-day apologists’ demonstrably false claim that Christians have always been trinitarian and how we can know from the primary sources that this it is false, Links for this episode: Videos from the 2024 UK Internation UCA conference in Windsor Restitutio podcast Sean Finnegan, “Is Matthew 28.19 a Forgery?” The Shepherd of Hermas 1 Clement Barnabas The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE) The Development of the Canon of the New Testament The Apocrypha The Muratorian Fragment McIntosh, ed. One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity Codex Vaticanus Codex Sinaiaticus a scholarly article on the Ethiopian Canon(s) Sirach 24 Wisdom of Solomon 9 What John 1 Meant How John 1 was intelligible in the first century Dr. R.T. Mullins on “classical” (i.e. too Platonized) theism Rowan Williams, Arius: Heresy and Tradition Dale’s university lectures on Islam: https://youtu.be/KMkrh46cfo8?si=WvtAVIduSwfwORxb podcast 31 – Dr. William Hasker on the “Arian” Controversy podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea podcast 29 – Arius Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God: The Arian Controversy, 318-381 Clovis I Emperor Justinian I https://youtu.be/d9W_KjktIdk?si=Voh8BVGFQVt18iSX https://youtu.be/KxYtTQDo1dA?si=tKYXVBTB4R3AAxDt https://youtu.be/RmRdZmPIGrA?si=-Zi-DW0uRUJot1aP podcast 175 – Marcellus of Ancyra https://youtu.be/uk1aqpMlKyI?si=B53QCCwRhBNphEZ2 Plotinus podcast 5 – Anglicans Defending “Athanasius” podcast 4 – Anglicans vs. “Athanasius” podcast 3 – making Abelard cry podcast 2 – the “Athanasian Creed” Augustine podcast 12 – the Apostles’ Creed This week’s thinking music is “Red Dirt” by Mr. Smith.
This episode is a live Q&A session from the first ever UCA Conference in New Zealand, held in a beautiful lakeside conference center in Cambridge. The venue was a 15-minute walk from where I stayed. The view from there was this! Topics discussed include: unitarians throughout church history, Eusebius of Caesarea and his Church History, Theodotus of Byzantium, Artemon, Paul of Samosata, Photinus of Sirmium, the biblical canon in the early church, Athanasius, Arius and the so-called “Arian” controversy, the 325 council at Nicea, alternate readings of Matthew 28:19 in the works of Eusebius, Origen’s doctrine of God’s eternal generation of the Logos, Novatian of Rome, the influences of Platonic thought on early theology, pre-Nicene subordinationism, Plato’s Timaeus and his idea of the Demiurge (Craftsman), the idea of creation through one or more intermediaries, gnostic ideas about creation, Irenaeus and his Against Heresies, whether the idea of the Trinity comes from Greek philosophy, pagan and early Christian triadological speculations, changing meanings of the word “Trinity” (Greek: trias, Latin: trinitas) and when the term became popular, ancient subordinationists as unitarian Christians, the trinitarian idea that they were sort of trying to express belief in the Trinity, American congregationalist unitarians, William Ellery Channing, the idea of dividing unitarian Christians into “Socinians” and “Arians,” the historical events leading up to the Nicene Creed, the new controversial word homoousios (same essense or substance), the decree of Theodosius I and the 381 council which ended the Nicene controversy, the 381 “Nicene Creed” as the first implicitly trinitarian creed, the mainstream theological scene in the 100s and 200s, the idea that purely Hebraic apostolic thought was superseded by Greek thought, divine impassibility, timelessness, and simplicity, Numenius, first and second century crises in Israel, Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho, Epiphanius of Salamis, ancient Jewish Christians, and the idea of Restorationism. The opinions expressed here are only those of the presenters, and do not represent official positions of the UCA. For those, see this. Resources mentioned in this episode: restitutio.org Living Hope International Ministries – LHIM Williams, The Radical Reformation, 3rd edition Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology? (video) podcast 176 – Photinus of Sirmium – Trinities McDonald, The Biblical Canon Text and Canon Institute Eusebius, The Church History, Ecclesiastical Theology, Oration in Praise of Constantine Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament podcast 347 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 1 – Almost Pope podcast 348 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 2 – Two Thieves and Three Arguments Origen, On First Principles Brakke, The Gnostics: Myth, Ritual, and Diversity in Early Christianity podcast 167 – Lamson’s History of The Unitarian Congregationalists podcast 308 – Channing’s “Unitarian Christianity” – Part 1 podcast 309 – Channing’s “Unitarian Christianity” – Part 2 podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea Tuggy, What is the Trinity? Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“ https://www.youtube.com/live/etUHkoDdevU?si=2odbGy55wqlEO1-V Dale’s 2024 presentation at the UK International Conference: podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know https://youtu.be/HgsdXLn3Iok?si=-lLvisD_FHhOk7nd History of the Early Christadelphians This week’s thinking music is “for the glory of” by Dirk Dehler.
In videos like this one and this one, trinitarian apologists continue to push false narratives about the history of mainstream Christian theologies, like these (ordered from least to most plausible): In this historical presentation, focusing on passages from Tertullian, Origen, and Novatian, I explain the actual early history of mainstream Christian theologies. Each of these three authors is a logos theorist, and I explain how they think God and the Logos (aka “the second god”) differ. “Subordinationism” is a feature, not a bug of these theologies; it is how they stay monotheistic despite positing multiple “divine” beings–only one “god” is strictly speaking a god. Each writer implies that logos theory was in their day a minority view; it seems that logos theories were at first popular among the “elite” and were widely rejected by other Christians. Each of these writers describes Christians who disagree with their Logos speculations. Since Harnack historians have called these Dynamic Monarchians and Modalistic Monarchians. Using the stick figures first deployed here, I explain the differences between these three mainstream Christian theologies, and between each of them and the trinitarian theology that was demanded by the mainstream starting in 381. Finally, I take a stab out outlining the actual early history of Christian theologies, starting with Dynamic Monarchianism and ending with the hegemony of trinitarianism. Because of the many slides (and stick figures) I recommend the video version: https://youtu.be/d9W_KjktIdk?feature=shared Thanks to Brandon Duke for editing the video and to Mark Cain for expertly cleaning up the lecture audio! Finally, my sincerest thanks to the tireless UK International Conference committee whose hard work made this encouraging meeting possible. Watch the UCA blog for an announcement of the next UK international conference! Links for this episode: Thomas Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: the Earliest Christology? Unitarian Christian Alliance podcast 281 – Introducing the Unitarian Christian Alliance Clarifying Catholic Christologies podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God” von Harnack on logos theories and mystery Evolution of the Trinity – with Bill Schlegel podcast 262 – The Trinity before Nicea? Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus Craig: how Nicene orthodoxy rules out the full deity of Christ Origen on the Challenge to Jesus is God Apologists trinitarian or unitarian? 7 – Origen uncensored Origen, Paul, and Peter: Christians worship the Jews’ god Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 1 Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 2 podcast 24 – How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian This week’s thinking music is “Blood (Instrumental)” by Anthem of Rain.
To understand a book as its author intended, you don’t look to its future, but rather to its past. What has this author read, and what could he presuppose his audience to have read? These other pieces of literature are like tools in the author’s hands. The biblical book of Proverbs famously features a vivid personification, Lady Wisdom. She pleads with people to seek and find her, and she even appears alongside God when he is creating. As Dr. Dustin Smith explains, this character appears in a number of later ancient Jewish writings in various ways, and can even be described as “incarnate” in certain people. Many of these would have been accessible both to the author of John and his audience. Paul famously writes that Christ is “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24). But as James Dunn has observed, this idea of Christ as God’s wisdom is more prominent in John than in any other New Testament book. Drawing on an impressive array of recent scholarship, in Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John Dr. Dustin Smith argues that “the Johannine Jesus is incarnate Wisdom and that this christological presentation permeates all twenty-one chapters of the Fourth Gospel” (p. 213). In this new discussion we focus on the basics of “wisdom christology” and on how that idea sheds light on the famous opening to the fourth gospel, John 1:1-18. Links for this episode: Smith, Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John Smith, The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus Transfigured: Dr. Dustin Smith – Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John previous trinities podcast episodes with Dustin Smith Unitarian Christian Alliance podcast 301 – Dr. Daniel Boyarin on John 1 podcast 295 – James Martineau on John 1 John A. T. Robinson on “the Word” of John 1 How John 1 was intelligible in the first century podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant This week’s thinking music is “Spacedust” by airtone.
The way to evaluate a debate is to actively chart and compare the arguments made by each side. Debaters call this “flowing” a debate. I sat down and did this, working carefully all the way through my recent debate with James White on the question “Is Jesus Yahweh?” In this episode I’ll give you my evaluation of the debate, with an assist from the cutting edge Chat Debate Beta AI. She and I even go so far as to declare a winner! Do you agree? Why or why not? How would you have argued one side or the other differently I’ve been interviewed several times about the debate; see the videos below. https://youtu.be/BYmerZbCTLI?si=-PdxYVrxihx8OsYr https://youtu.be/rL69HKlnnPE?si=K7JNhUnQRyepeGvf https://youtu.be/aCtTBJPsPwc?si=LmF-J_PAAiC-h4QH Links for this episode: the fully produced video of the debate Who Should Christians Worship? Microsoft Copilot Identity Restitutio 451 Wisdom Christology in Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille) July 8, 2022 Restitutio 450 Seven Interpretive Options for Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille) June 30, 2022 Restitutio 449 Intertextuality and Interpretation of Hebrews 1 (Jerry Wierwille) June 23, 2022 This week’s thinking music is “Dit it and Quit It” by Van Loon.
In this episode: mutual interrogations, closing statements, and audience questions and answers. Which side put forward the stronger opening case? Which did a better job in rebuttal? What if anything was revealed by the mutual interrogations? What if anything was added by the brief closing statements? And which answers to audience questions did you think were important, and why? You be the judge. In the next episode I’ll share some of my thoughts about this debate. Thanks to James White and to the co-sponsors of the debate: First Lutheran Houston and the Unitarian Christian Alliance. Links for this episode: podcast 377 – Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? White vs. Tuggy – Part 1 Restitutio 539 Dale Tuggy’s Thoughts on the James White Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? UCA Podcast the fully produced UCA version of the debate video Alpha & Omega Ministries Restitutio 450 Seven Interpretive Options for Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille) This week’s thinking music is “Badoobap” by Van Loon.
Trino Carrera
The Achilles heel here is that apologists at most only try to defend Binitarianism. They rarely bring arguments about the Holy Spirit.
Trino Carrera
Some of James' scriptures are not at all obvious.
ronnie r
that is the greatest song ever.