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The Gray Area with Sean Illing
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The Gray Area with Sean Illing
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The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday.
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Religious studies professor Diana Pasulka was a total nonbeliever in alien life, but she began to question this after speaking with many people who claim to have had otherworldly encounters. She also noticed how these accounts parallel the foundational texts of many religions. She has since written two books on the topic, the most recent of which is Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences. She joins Sean to talk about extraterrestrial life, God, angels, and the renewed interest in UFOs.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Diana Pasulka (@dwpasulka). Her new book is Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences.
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Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Kate Murphy, author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters
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This episode was made by:
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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The internet has fractured our world into a million little subcultures catering to the specific identities and habits of everyone online. Writer Derek Thompson believes this has led to a widespread cult-like mentality that has crept into all facets of modern life — pop culture, media, politics, and religion itself. He joins Sean to explain this theory, and why it’s maybe not such a bad thing.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Derek Thompson (@dkthomp). His podcast is Plain English, and he writes for The Atlantic.
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Is it possible that we are living through one of the most revolutionary periods in human history? CNN’s Fareed Zakaria believes that we are and argues that the convergence of AI and the global backlash against liberal democracy are upending political orders around the world. He joins Sean to talk about how this period relates to history’s most impactful revolutions, both political and technological.
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Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Fareed Zakaria (@fareedzakaria). His new book is Age of Revolutions.
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This episode was made by:
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Philosophy may seem like a theoretical or abstract discipline in which unanswerable questions are debated to the point of tedium. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes that philosophical inquiry has a very practical and applicable purpose outside of the classroom — to help guide us through life’s most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Kieran Setiya. His book is called Life is Hard.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Jane Marie is an expert in American bullshit. Her podcast The Dream explores life coaching, wellness, marketing, and other fraudulent industries and exposes their exploitative practices. Her book, Selling the Dream, takes an even closer look at multilevel marketing schemes like Amway and Herbalife and gives historical context to this multibillion-dollar — and distinctly American — enterprise.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Jane Marie. Her podcast is The Dream and her book is Selling the Dream.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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As a non-believer, Devin Moss never thought he would become a chaplain or a spiritual adviser, much less one who counsels hospital patients with terminal illnesses and inmates on death row. Devin joins Sean to talk about his improbable journey, the death penalty, and the role of religion in an increasingly secular society.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Devin Moss. His podcast is The Adventures of Memento Mori.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Journalist Rhaina Cohen believes that modern culture undervalues friendships and discusses the ways in which deep friendships are distinct from but no less meaningful than romantic partnerships.
Guest host: Sigal Samuel (@sigalsamuel)
Guest: Rhaina Cohen (@rhainacohen). Her book is The Other Significant Others.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Stephen Markley’s novel, “The Deluge,” is an ambitious and terrifyingly realistic look at our collective future on a warming planet. He joins Sean to talk about the 10-year process of writing the book, the current political struggle over climate action, and how we can confront and mitigate the worst effects of climate change.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Stephen Markley. His book is “The Deluge.”
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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It’s been 50 years since Ernest Becker’s breakthrough book The Denial of Death was first published, and its thesis has become more relevant than ever. Filmmaker Jef Sewell is the co-creator of a new documentary about Becker called All Illusions Must Be Broken. It features never-before-heard audio of the enigmatic anthropologist and puts his theories in a modern context.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Jef Sewell. Find out more about the film at www.twobirdsfilm.com
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Silicon Valley is in the middle of an AI frenzy, and many of its leaders believe this technology could eventually result in human extinction. Tyler Austin Harper breaks down the most outlandish predictions, some of the more plausible problems AI poses, and how this moment reminds him of earlier extinction panics.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Tyler Austin Harper (@Tyler_A_Harper). Read his piece in the New York Times here.
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America solidified its dominant posture in the international order following World War II and largely held that position for the following half-century. But as problems have accumulated at home and abroad, Americans are reconsidering their country’s role in the world, and so are its leaders. Alex Ward, author of The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, joins us.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Alex Ward (@alexbward). His book is The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump.
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Sean Illing talks with economic historian Brad DeLong about his new book Slouching Towards Utopia. In it, DeLong claims that the "long twentieth century" was the most consequential period in human history, during which the institutions of rapid technological growth and globalization were created, setting humanity on a path towards improving life, defeating scarcity, and enabling real freedom. But... this ran into some problems. Sean and Brad talk about the power of markets, how the New Deal led to something approaching real social democracy, and why the Great Recession of 2008 and its aftermath signified the end of this momentous era.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: J. Bradford DeLong (@delong), author; professor of economics, U.C. Berkeley
References:
Slouching Towards Utopia: An Economic History of the Twentieth Century by J. Bradford DeLong (Basic; 2022)
The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek (1944)
The Great Transformation by Karl Polanyi (1944)
Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy by Joseph Schumpeter (1942)
"A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (This Land Magazine; 2009)
"China's Great Leap Forward" by Clayton D. Brown (Association for Asian Studies; 2012)
What Is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1840)
The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle (Oxford University Press; 2022)
Apple's "1984" ad (YouTube)
The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes (1936)
"The spectacular ongoing implosion of crypto's biggest star, explained" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Nov. 18)
"Did Greenspan Add to Subprime Woes? Gramlich Says Ex-Colleague Blocked Crackdown" by Greg Ip (Wall Street Journal; June 9, 2007)
"Families across the country are tightening their belts and making tough decisions. The federal government should do the same," from President Obama's 2010 State of the Union Address (Jan. 27, 2010)
"The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" by Karl Marx (1852)
Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein (Simon & Schuster; 2020)
The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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Musician Laraaji joins Sean to talk about improvisation as meditation, the transcendent nature of laughter, and lessons from a long life in sound and spirit.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Laraaji. His music can be found at https://laraajimusic.bandcamp.com/
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Political philosopher Ingrid Robeyns believes that there should be a maximum amount of money and resources that one person can have. She tells Sean how much is too much and why limiting personal wealth benefits everyone, including the super rich.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Ingrid Robeyns. Her book is Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Cristian Ayala
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For much of her life, author Maggie Jackson disliked uncertainty and thought of it as something to eradicate as quickly as possible. But when she began to explore the uncertain mind, she discovered new scientific findings showing that uncertainty is critical for astute problem-solving and creativity. She joins Sean to talk about what she learned and how being unsure can lead to a better, more hopeful life.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Maggie Jackson. You can find her books and more at https://www.maggie-jackson.com/
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Americans have absorbed the “Protestant work ethic” — the idea that our value as human beings is determined by how hard we work and how much money we make. Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it sucks.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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If you’ve felt that learning new information or developing a new skill seems harder as you get older, you are not wrong. Neuroscientist Gul Dolen has studied brain capability and joins us to talk about the times in human development when our brains are especially adept at learning and retaining new information, and how MDMA and other psychedelics can be used to induce these moments and unlock the brain’s potential.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Gul Dolen. Learn more about her work at www.dolenlab.org.
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail. This episode was originally published on June 29th.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author
References:
Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
It's OK That You're Not OK by Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts
This episode was made by:
Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall
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Jon Kabat-Zinn helped kick off the American mindfulness movement with his bestselling book Wherever You Go, There You Are. On its 30th anniversary, he joins Sean for a wide-ranging conversation about what it means to be mindful in the attention economy, why mindfulness has skyrocketed in popularity, and how to think about the commercialization of an ancient practice.
Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Jon Kabat-Zinn, mindfulness pioneer and author of Wherever You Go, There You Are. Learn more about his work at https://jonkabat-zinn.com and follow him at https://twitter.com/jonkabatzinn and https://www.facebook.com/kabatzinn
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area
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This episode was made by:
Producer: Jon Ehrens
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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The typical American's fixation on the last meal (in the context of a government-condoned execution) is perplexing. Does anyone really think such ritual will erase all the indignities that our society, in general, and our criminal "justice" system, in particular, imposes on those not afluent enough to get a free pass?
excellent podcast. really enjoyed Elizabeth Anderson on America and it's work ethic
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Nice episode https://tocabocamods.com/
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oh my god, such biased bullshit. haven't even gotten 3 minutes in am im done. #bidencartel
Very scary stuff! But good to know. Stay alert, not alarmed. If you found this episode informative, you might complement it with S1 of It Could Happen Here, by Robert Evans. Fascinating, terrifying, and prescient.
Wow, way to predict the death of harry belafonte!
She seems to be talking about a cultural change to reduce violence, poverty, and the need for policing. This is achieved by personal responsibility in the following... 1. Finish high school. 2. Get a job. 3. Don't have babies outside of marriage.
@28:07 ... I would extend the feminism problem to be more in the denigrating of boys it has caused.
@7:00 ...that the education systems were biased towards girls has been known for decades...this is not some new discovery. Schools are geared towards the way girls learn. The difficulty of the structured classrooms has always been known for boys. While the roadblocks to girls education removed are being discussed, hopefully they will explain why boys have declined. My hypothesis for boys decline is due to more fatherless homes for boys.
I loved the nuance and feeling in this. The discussion we need to have.
What a dumb take on a decent program.
This is a fantastic conversation and interview with Peniel Joseph. Incredibly informative and salient in understanding our current struggle and discourse of politics, race, and class in America.
Reza asserts that religious folks do not claim that morality derives from scripture. This is the exact opposite of the truth: religious people are always saying that without God there can be no morality. Of course, it's not true. It's just what they say.
FFS Vox, stop inviting relugious people to talk about religion. They don't know the first thing about it. Reza Aslan is no more interesting than any 2bit evangelical preacher.
Existentialism started after WWII? Not really. Kirkegaard?
Eat Borscht and drop some lb's. The fat epidemic is not confined to race. Processed foods in the USA are largely responsible and should be examined for addictive properties. I live in Syracuse, NY and Kyiv. Flat out - not a lot of fat people in Ukraine. They eat natural foods. Fat people in the 'Cuse come in all races and sizes... XXXL & XXXXL. Eat Borscht and drop some lbs.
This was a very informative interview and I'm grateful Vox dedicated the time to this emergent issue. The only thing worse than fascism is Gilbert Gottfried explain-screaming about fascism! So when is anyone going to acknowledge that a significant percentage of the right can't wait for the opportunity to kill Americans? I'd kinda like to think that somebody is paying attention.
the philosopher who resisited despair was one of the best of episodes.