We're Not Marketers

Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches.The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event.Show Notes00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget15:22 The survey that got over 10,000 visits, and what belongs on a resume now16:05 Where the name Mojo came from17:57 The difference between fear and expecting fear19:14 Death to Marketing, six weeks before a wedding20:14 Three guys, no private equity, one event23:34 Zach's cutout blows over, and Brendan Hufford checks in24:48 Community with a lowercase c27:34 What happens when a 200 person event becomes 40028:16 The boat tour, and what they took for Lake Michigan29:39 LaShay Lewis, and the line that stuck30:01 The pain of change is no longer worse than the pain of staying the same31:16 Go shake hands, go touch grassHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue.Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it.She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode.SHOW NOTES00:00 Cold open and host introductions00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers?02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing"03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos"05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good20:43 Gab on developing taste21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype25:05 The pizza tier list begins27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you"30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven35:53 Where to find NatalieSOURCESCapsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.videoModern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.comEmily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engineNatalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming.What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help.Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026. Show Notes(00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose(00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"(01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event(02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this(03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors(04:30) The math that made no sense(05:04) The two events that set the bar(06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?(10:28) Enough about PMA(11:02) The real number, said out loud(11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"(12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland(12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected(13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event(14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"(15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you(16:37) What Eric took on personally(20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors(20:36) Running an event like a product launch(22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through(23:05) The one thing no other event is doing(25:21) The hard stuff starts here(25:49) When your business becomes your identity(26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming(27:37) "An event run by these three losers"(29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"(29:59) Turtle pace: the grind of selling tickets(30:55) The discipline of narrowing the audience mid-sale(34:38) The delegation problem(36:09) "One of the heaviest things you'll ever do"(37:59) Keep, stop, do over(38:47) Keep: the partner(41:42) Do over: the waitlist(43:36) Do over: invite-only?(43:58) The coin flip nobody can call(45:23) If they do it again, it might be a stage play(48:31) The ask, without the false urgencyHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap. If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you.More from this episodeWhy "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead)The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decksHow Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not afterThe Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the endBeing your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planningThe exact reason Frame.io's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really)The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data firstHow Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn postsWhy "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefsTime Stamps 00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM02:15 THE QUESTION: Are product marketers marketers?03:30 "We're storytellers before we're marketers"04:30 Should the product or the user be the main character?05:30 The trap of feature-led storytelling vs. workflow thinking07:00 What "workflow" actually means (and why it's not jargon)09:00 The Frame.io / Camera to Cloud story12:30 How Frame.io rewrote a 100-year-old industry workflow14:00 Jason's spicy take: PMMs must eat, live, breathe the product16:00 How user needs have shifted dramatically in 5–10 years18:00 The Premier Pro pillow story (and why every PMM should have one)19:00 Where most companies fail at user research20:30 The private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users21:30 Weekly webinars, betas, and the questions you're NOT asking users24:00 Scrappy is a state of mind, not a company size25:00 Jason's career timeline: Blackmagic → NFL Films → Warner Bros → Frame.io → Adobe28:00 The crisis of faith — leaving "colorist" behind30:00 Why Jason's passion is impossible to fake31:30 The dark side of being your own ICP33:00 Mixing intuition with data — the PMM credibility unlock35:00 Advice for aspiring PMMs: become a subject matter expert first38:00 The creativity rant — your differentiator vs. AI41:30 ROI, business metrics, and earning the seat at the table44:00 The "beautiful circle" of product marketing (and who's outside it)46:00 Where to find Jason + Adobe Max teaser48:00 OutroHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever. If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you.More from this episodeThe two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy")Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriterThe "shout pineapple" school of copywritingWhy B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicksThe dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contactThe difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months)Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights foreverWhy making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobsThe brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually worksGila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now)Show NotesTimespan:00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab)01:00 Introducing Gila Shapiro — Copywriter, PMM, Creative Strategist at Riverside02:50 The Recurring Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:00 The "Elevate Your Enterprise Synergies" Test05:30 Writing Copy vs. Being a Copywriter — The Frying Pan Analogy07:00 Gila's Process: Say the Terrible Thing Out Loud07:35 The Dinner Party Test09:00 Why Most People Default to Corporate Jargon12:30 Be Interested to Be Interesting — The Customer Interview Trick15:30 Ownership at Riverside & Wearing Multiple Hats17:30 The Broken Brief-to-Copy Handoff Process19:30 What to Do When Good Copy Doesn't Convert21:30 Personal Brands vs. B2B Brands: Why B2B Is Afraid23:30 AI for Job Security — Copy Think vs. Copy Paste27:00 The "Copy Think vs. Copy Paste" Framework30:00 Internal Fights with Executives Over Copy31:25 The Founder POV Reverse-Engineering Trick33:30 Burnout, Garden Gnomes, and Chasing the Fun Parts36:30 Live Pitch: Why Switch from SquadCast to Riverside?40:30 Cheers and FarewellHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.