Where Do We Go From Here?

Where Do We Go From Here is a podcast hosted, edited and produced by Jessica Vanderwyngaard and Devi Abraham.  Sign up for a 2-month long book club discussing Sarah C. Williams new book: "When Courage Calls: Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women." Sign up at patreon.com/wheredowegopod for $10 a month, or as a $7 upgrade from our $3 membership level. (Prices in USD.) Book Club Benefits:  Private Facebook group for online discussions throughout the month  Zoom discussion on the book (month 1) Zoom conversation with the author (month 2)  You can find out more by going to wheredowegopod.com  You can join the conversation on Instagram @wheredowegopod  

The era of purity rings and True Love Waits pledges may be over, you could stand around the fire of a burning down house and warm your hands, or you can rebuild. That's where we come in. Where Do We Go From Here? is a podcast untangling sexual ethics for a new generation of Christians. We aren't building a house. You are. But we want to equip you with psychological insights and sound theological framing that you can use as tools to build your own place. Join the conversation at Instagram @wheredowegopod

Where Do We Go From Here? is untangling sexual ethics for a new generation of Christians. We are here to start a conversation with you about life after purity culture. You can use our conversations as a starting point with your people - friends, partners, family, neighbors, youth group and mom's groups - so that you can decide: where will you go from here? Full episode show notes here Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews and exclusive episodes of The Jess & Devi Show 

Is "purity" the word the Bible uses to describe our sexual decisions? How easy is it to make the Bible say what we want it to say? What are tools that we need as we study the Bible for ourselves? Listen as we dissect the word "purity" as it is found in the Bible and examine the implications of believing that we are pure or impure. Full show notes here Talk to us on Twitter & Instagram Join the Ladies Night Book Club for $9/month - check here if we're starting a new book club soon

Chewed up gum. Crumpled roses. Tape that lost its stickiness. We talk about these metaphors from purity culture with Dr. Sean McDowell, and we unpack - were these the best ways to talk about premarital sex? How were they harmful? What are better ways of discussing our sexual choices? And how can we be talking about it with young people today? Join us for a look back at 80s purity culture and for thoughts on how to move forward. Full Show Notes here Follow us on Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month and get uncut interviews with our guests AND episodes of The Jess & Devi Show

As we uncover more of purity culture's influences, we discuss what cultures have shaped our view on sexuality, marriage and singleness. Biblical culture? Christian culture? Broader culture? Popular culture?  For this discussion we're joined by Fuller Seminary professor and author, Kutter Callaway. He lectures in faith and culture but his expertise in purity culture was galvanised in his must-read book, Breaking the Marriage Idol. Full Show Notes Here Talk to us Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month and get uncut interviews with our guests AND episodes of The Jess & Devi Show

You know that sermon, the one where we were all promised that if we saved sex for marriage not only would we get a (great! godly!) spouse, but also a hot sex life. But what are the consequences of the belief that says, "If I do this then God will give me _____?" Jess and Devi talk about the impact of believing the Sexual Prosperity Gospel, as writer Katelyn Beaty calls it. What does entitlement do to a relationship? Do we only get what we deserve? Is there a way to hold our lives and our choices with the open hand of gratitude? Full show notes here Partner with us for $3/month and get uncut interviews with our guests AND episodes of The Jess & Devi Show Talk to us on Instagram and Twitter

This conversation is for you if you've wondered what to do when singleness goes on longer than you were promised. Pastor and teacher Sarah Deutscher joins us for this week's conversation about the sexual prosperity gospel and singleness. We talk about what the kingdom of God is really like and what beliefs we have to set aside in order to know God. Sarah says to us, "The kingdom of God is an extravagant reality that is at the heart of the gospel and why Jesus came, and we can engage in that reality right now." Jess and Devi also talk about what it's like to be a single person in the church, and we explore what we can do to reach out to each other. Our thanks to Sarah Deutscher for joining us for this episode of the podcast. Sarah is a pastor and teacher at Red Church in Melbourne, Australia. Full show notes for the episode here. Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show Follow @wheredowegopod on IG Follow @wheredowegopod on Twitter

Jess, Devi, and Lindsey take your questions and stories in this week's episode and discuss them. What do you do if your married friends don't value your time as a single person? What happens when there's guilt from previous relationships? How do we parent without fear? Listen in to a candid conversation about all the things.  You can find this episode's show notes here. Join the conversation at Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show

Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape. "My parents weren't the ones who perpetuated purity culture to me. It was the books, the books, the books. The reason why it was so damaging to my friends and I is we were reading them in private. I was internalizing these messages without any discernment." That's one way Rachel Welcher took in the messages of purity culture, and now she's writing a book about it. In this conversation with Rachel, we talk about the similarities she found between purity culture and rape culture, the ways in which purity culture dehumanized both men and women, and the impact of studying the Bible thoroughly and in a community. This is part 1 of our conversation with Rachel. Episode show notes here Join us as we talk daily about sexual ethics on Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show Rachel Joy Welcher is an editor for Fathom magazine, and a graduate of the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, where she received her Master of Letters in Bible and the Contemporary World. She is the author of two collections of poetry, Two Funerals, Then Easter and Blue Tarp, and has written for The Gospel Coalition, Mere Orthodoxy, Relevant, and The Englewood Review of Books. Rachel has spent the last few years researching the impact of modern evangelical purity culture on the Church, and her book Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality is forthcoming from InterVarsity Press in 2020. She currently lives in Glenwood, Iowa, with her husband, Pastor Evan Welcher, and their dog, Frank.  You can connect with Rachel on Twitter and Instagram.  

This episode is for you if you want to learn how to listen and talk to people who suffer. It can be easy to believe that the Christian life will inoculate us against heartbreak; that's certainly what purity culture books implied. Rachel Welcher discusses with us the way her divorce impacted her life, and she says, "Still to this day, people ask me, 'How can I avoid your fate?'  and I say, 'You can't. Suffering is part of the Christian life.'" (We start talking to Rachel at the 10 minute mark.) Jess and Devi also discuss whether or not we should be preparing unmarried people for divorce the way we prepare them for relationships, and we talk about the way grief is part of the Christian life. Full episode show notes here. Join us as we talk daily about sexual ethics on Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show Follow Rachel Welcher on Twitter and Instagram.

Trigger Warning: This episode contains multiple references to rape, sexual assault, and different forms of abuse and violence.  This episode is for you if you are wanting to understand how purity culture was and can still be traumatizing for some. It's for you if you've experienced trauma - physical, sexual, emotional, spiritual, or other forms - and are seeking a clearer understanding of your experience. It's for you if you desire to be a support for the people in your life for whom trauma is part of their story. Our conversation covers the broad implications of trauma but also the personal side as we reflect on our own lives and the stories of our listeners. These are the different topics we cover in this conversation: what trauma is, and how trauma happens the difference between a one-time traumatic event (PTSD) and complex trauma. big T trauma, little t trauma, and that trauma is subjective in nature sexual assault is about power and control we talk about our own desire for control and how our rules and theologies are more about keeping us safe and less about what is actually true. Full show notes here Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and Twitter  Dr. Heather Davediuk Gingrich is a counselor, scholar, teacher, and former missionary and a professor of counseling at Denver Seminary. Dr. Gingrich maintains a small private practice working with complex trauma survivors. She began counseling over thirty years ago in Canada, and continued in the Philippines where she counseled, taught, and completed her doctoral studies on complex trauma. She is the author of Restoring the Shattered Self, coauthor of Skills for Effective Counseling, and co-editor and contributor to Treating Trauma in Christian Counseling.

How do we heal from the traumatic experiences? What are the different kinds of therapies out there? How do we forms supportive communities? These are some of the questions we discuss in this week's episode. We talk about the different forms of therapy, the differences between counselling for PTSD and complex trauma, why interviewing prospective therapists is a good idea, and phased treatment for survivors of complex trauma. Listen in to hear Jess and Devi's personal experiences with therapy, EMDR, and prayer ministry. We also talk why forgiveness cannot be rushed and why forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing.  Full episode show notes here Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews with guests AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show. Dr. Heather Davediuk Gingrich is a counselor, scholar, teacher, and former missionary and a professor of counseling at Denver Seminary. Dr. Gingrich maintains a small private practice working with complex trauma survivors. She began counseling over thirty years ago in Canada, and continued in the Philippines where she counseled, taught, and completed her doctoral studies on complex trauma. She is the author of Restoring the Shattered Self, coauthor of Skills for Effective Counseling, and co-editor and contributor to Treating Trauma in Christian Counseling.

Our shortest episode yet, you can hear Jess and Devi talk about two podcast episodes they've recently listened to that helped them think through sexual ethics.Devi recommends Melanated Faith by FaitthB and Kathryn Freeman, specifically Episode 3 Singleness and Purity Culture. But they've got a different angle on the single life as Christian African-American women in the church. It's an insightful (and fun) conversation.Jess recommends Armchair Expert with Bret Weinstein, an American biologist and evolutionary theorist. They talk about the differences between the way men and women experience sex, and there are some fascinating conclusions. Full show notes here Connect with us on Instagram and Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews with guests AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show.

The finale for Netflix's reality show Love is Blind aired last week, and whether you know who Cameron and Lauren are, whatever you think of Jessica, or if you think reality dating shows are silly, there's something in our conversation for you. Listen in as Jess and Devi talk about what reality TV shows say about our culture when it comes to romance, dating, and marriage.  More and more people are watching reality romance, and we ask why. We talk about what our culture says: You're either not married or you're on your way to marriage. We believe those are false choices. Life is more complex and beautiful than fits into these neat categories. Listen in to hear more. Later on in the show, we talk about what's coming up in season 2 of our podcast, and we need your help. Devi also shares about how she met her husband and their long-distance relationship pre-Skype. Full show notes here Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews with guests AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show.

This episode is for you if you want to know more about where we are at as a community. We talk about your thoughts on premarital sex, porn, app dating, and same-sex relationships as we wrap up our first season untangling sexual ethics together. Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter.  Full Show Notes Here Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews with guests AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show.

When we ended season 1, who knew that in mid April we would have been mostly at home without the same social structures we were used to? That's why we are starting off with a Covid Catch Up. How is everyone holding up after a month or more of self isolation and quarantine? We talk about what life is like with minimal touch and minimal social interactions as well as update you on what's happening in our lives.  Lindsey Kaye is figuring out what it means to do what she can, one day at a time.  Devi is digital schooling her kids and getting a second chance at motherhood.  Jess restarted DOCSology and is helping churches move services online, and she's got some big personal news. Watch this episode here Full show notes here Join the conversation on Instagram & Twitter Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews AND get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show

Are you tired of Christian living books and the simple answers they provide for the problems of life? Dr. Karen Swallow Prior joins us in this episode to talk about the way reading forms us, and how reading better books helps us become better thinkers and better agents of change in our culture and community. This episode is for you if you want to think deeper and need help figuring out what steps should come next.  We talk about: The problems with Christian living books The difference between information and formation What impact does bad reading habits have on reading the Bible Tips for what books to read Tips for how to read once you get started For all of Dr. Prior's book recommendations and for the links to her books, go to our full show notes. Connect with Dr. Karen Swallow Prior on Twitter and Instagram Join our conversation on Twitter and Instagram Partner with us for $3/month to hear uncut interviews with our guests AND episodes of The Jess & Devi Show. 

If you've heard that men have an innate, not-understandable need for sex, popular author Sheila Gregoire disagrees. She says, "the most deprived people in the bedroom are wives."  This episode will show you the way Christian sex books undermine a woman's sexual agency and a woman's sexual needs. There's another way, and we get into it. This episode is for adults only.  We talk about: the books Love & Respect and The Act of Marriage How husbands can serve their wives How women can draw boundaries in their marriage What sexual fulfilment really is Vaginismus   Obligation sex messages Fundamentalist ideas about sex and marriage Full episode show notes here Partner with us for $3/month and hear uncut interviews AND The Jess & Devi Show. Join our conversation on Instagram and Twitter Connect with Sheila on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook

This episode is for anyone who wants to better understand how pornography impacts evangelicals. We know what we say in public: porn is sin, it leads to destruction, and it harms marriages and families. But we also know evangelical men and women still view porn. Does pornography have unique significance for conservative Protestants? Dr. Samuel Perry, a sociologist, says yes. He studied pornography in the lives of conservative Protestants in the United States for over four years, and his findings are published in his book Addicted to Lust, which we discuss in this episode. We cover the following topics: the impact of moral incongruence on evangelicals how complementarian theology justifies male porn use the unique impact of porn on evangelical women the difference in how evangelicals handle masturbation and pornography Samuel L. Perry is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies at the University of Oklahoma. He holds a Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Chicago and a Th.M. in New Testament Studies from Dallas Theological Seminary. His research explores the changing dynamics of religion, politics, race, sex, and family life in the United States. The author of numerous peer-reviewed articles, Sam has also written three books, one of which is Addicted to Lust: Pornography in the Lives of Conservative Protestants. He has also recently co-authored a book on the rise of Christian nationalism in the US . You can connect with Sam on Twitter Full episode show notes here Join the conversation with us on Twitter and Instagram