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Choiceology with Katy Milkman
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Choiceology with Katy Milkman

Author: Charles Schwab

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Can we learn to make smarter choices? Listen in as host Katy Milkman--behavioral scientist, Wharton professor, and author of How to Change--shares stories of high-stakes decisions and what research reveals they can teach us. Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, explores the lessons of behavioral economics to help you improve your judgment and change for good.

Season 1 of Choiceology was hosted by Dan Heath, bestselling author of Made to Stick and Switch.

Podcasts are for informational purposes only. This channel is not monitored by Charles Schwab. Please visit schwab.com/contactus for contact options. (0321-1S88)
57 Episodes
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Anticipating and planning for obstacles can sometimes be more powerful than adopting a positive mindset.A positive attitude is important when embarking on any new endeavor. However, as you may have heard in previous episodes of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, overoptimism also can blind you to important information.In this episode, we look at a strategy that can help counteract the effects of overoptimism and overconfidence. You could call it the power of negative thinking.We begin with the amazing story of a lake in Louisiana that completely disappeared in a matter of hours. An oil drilling accident in 1980 created a giant sinkhole in Lake Peigneur that rapidly drained massive amounts of water into an active salt mine, swallowing several boats and barges and large chunks of land in the process. The event was catastrophic, but no lives were lost, thanks in part to robust emergency planning.You’ll hear first-hand accounts of the dramatic event from Michael Richard, Sr., whose family owns and operates a garden and a nursery on the shores of Lake Peigneur, and from Dr. Kelvin Wu, who describes the scene in the salt mine as the disaster unfolded.Dr. Kelvin Wu is a retired mining engineer and former chief of the Mine Waste & Geotechnical Engineering Division at the Mine Safety and Health Administration.Michael Richard, Sr., owns and runs Rip Van Winkle Gardens and Live Oak Gardens on Lake Peigneur, Louisiana.Emergency planning played an important role in the outcome of this disaster. But planning for the worst needn’t be limited to life and death scenarios.Annie Duke joins Katy to argue that negative thinking—imagining failure in order to manage or prevent it— can actually help improve the odds of success when planning anything from a product launch to a birthday party. She argues that people shy away from negative thinking because it can feel unpleasant. But if you push through that unpleasantness, negative thinking can motivate you to take positive preemptive steps.Annie Duke is an author and decision strategist. You can read more about negative thinking in her book How to Decide.Finally, Katy differentiates negative thinking from pessimistic thinking. While pessimistic thinking can drain motivation and prevent you from setting goals, negative thinking can help you identify certain problems before they arise and raise your chances of success.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab. Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book, How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.Apple Podcasts and the Apple logo are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.Google Podcasts and the Google Podcasts logo are trademarks of Google LLC.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.(1021-1UD8)
Most of us would prefer to avoid an argument at work or at home. But there are times when arguments—at least when they’re civil—can help surface important information for decision-making. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at situations where certain types of conflict can actually lead to better outcomes.You’re probably familiar with the story of Orville and Wilbur Wright. The Wright brothers secured their place in history by achieving the world’s first sustained flight of a powered, heavier-than-air aircraft at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, in December of 1903. Less well known is the fact that the brothers would often argue intensely with each other over their engineering ideas.Tom Crouch reveals the family culture of argument and debate inside the Wright home as the brothers were growing up, and he explains how that argumentative streak may have helped them solve a key problem in their quest for powered flight.Tom D. Crouch is curator emeritus of the Smithsonian Institution and the author of The Bishop’s Boys: A Lifeof Wilbur and Orville Wright.A version of the Wright Brothers story appears in Adam Grant’s new book, Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know. Adam joins Katy to discuss how you can leverage constructive conflict to arrive at better decisions. He also explains how agreeableness can sometimes hold you back. Adam Grant is the Saul P. Steinberg Professor of Management at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He’s also host of the popular TED podcast WorkLife.Finally, Katy provides advice on how to find the right level of task conflict in order to maximize the creativity and innovation that comes from collaborative problem solving.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(1021-1WX2)
Perhaps this scenario seems familiar. Let’s say you generally do a good job of sticking to your monthly budget, but a rare opportunity arises—maybe a favorite musical artist is in town, or you’ve been invited to a friend’s 25th anniversary event—and you blow past your regular spending limit. It’s all right—you’ll just have to tighten your belt a bit next month. But then your phone stops working, and you have to buy a new model. And now your car needs an expensive repair. Again, these are not ordinary expenses, so you chalk it up to life and go back to your usual budget. And then the invitation to a destination wedding arrives …In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we explore a common error around the way individuals and organizations categorize seemingly exceptional expenses.Food trucks have come a long way since their humble beginnings as purveyors of meat pies and coffee for day laborers. Today, there’s a stunning variety of culinary options: from simple french fries to French haute cuisine, from ice cream to iced lattes, from Vietnamese pho to Mongolian pot stickers. And while these businesses may seem relatively straightforward to run, food trucks and small restaurants run into their fair share of unexpected costs.You hear from two food truck entrepreneurs. Greg Golden runs the delightful Mustache Pretzels, which he built from the ground up in Phoenix, Arizona. Greg was confident in his idea and his product but quickly ran into a series of financially painful setbacks on his way to a thriving business.Howie Jeon started his food truck business, Yumpling, with two partners and found success providing Taiwanese-inspired dumplings and other fusion fare to the lunch crowd in Manhattan. But when it came time to expand into a permanent brick-and-mortar restaurant, Howie and his partners faced a litany of challenges, not least of which was a global pandemic.Abigail Sussman joins Katy to discuss the ways in which we tend to dismiss or miscategorize expenses that fall outside of our regular budgets. These categorization errors can have a profound impact on businesses large and small—and also on personal budgets. You’ll hear about strategies to help deal with this tendency and to better prepare for expenses that seem exceptional but are often inevitable. Abigail Sussman is an associate professor of marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. You can read her research paper with Adam Alter titled The Exception Is the Rule: Underestimating and Overspending on Exceptional Expenses for more information on the phenomenon.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0921-1A9D)
When young children imagine their future lives, they’re often very optimistic. They’ll say things like “I’m going to be an astronaut!” or “When I grow up, I want to be a movie star!” These outcomes are, of course, quite rare. Most children will grow into slightly less exotic careers as adults. But even as adults, we tend toward personal optimism. We assume that we will outlive the average person, that we will remain in better health than the average person, and that our children will be above average in school or in sports. Of course, we can’t all be above average.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the mistakes we make when we assume we’re less susceptible to failure or negative outcomes than are other people.World’s Fairs are large scale events requiring an immense amount of planning and organization. And while there have been many memorable and successful fairs, there have also been many expensive failures. Robert Rydell tells the story of the 1926 Sesquicentennial International Exposition in Philadelphia. Organizers were certain that they could mount a spectacular event, one that would transform their city and burnish its reputation around the world. But international events, poor weather, local politics, and the death of one of the key planners would conspire to make this a fair to remember, for all the wrong reasons.Robert Rydell is a professor of American Studies at Montana State University and the author of All the World’s a Fair: Visions of Empire at American International Expositions, 1876-1916.Next, Don Moore joins Katy to discuss the ways in which overconfidence, overplacement, and overprecision can cloud your judgement, even though it may make you feel better about yourself and your abilities.Don Moore is the Lorraine Tyson Mitchell Chair in Leadership and Communication at the UC Berkeley Haas School of Business and serves as Associate Dean for Academic Affairs. He is also the author of the book Perfectly Confident: How to Calibrate Your Decisions Wisely. Finally, Katy offers advice on using base rates to help offset over-optimism when it comes to planning events, starting a business, getting married, or renovating your home.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐  rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0921-1WH3)
You may notice that charity campaigns tend to focus on the stories of one or two individuals or families, and that those stories are often rich with emotional content but light on information and statistics. There’s a reason for that.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the different ways we tend to be captivated and motivated by individuals and their stories, while on the other hand, we often become numb or disengaged when presented with large numbers or statistical information.Carol Quirke tells the story of Dorothea Lange and her most famous photograph. Dorothea Lange was a documentary photographer who did important work raising awareness of the plight of migrant workers during the Great Depression. But one of her photos stands above the rest: Migrant Mother. You’ll hear the story of how that photograph came to be, and the effect it had on public policy.You can view the image online at the Library of Congress.Carol Quirke is a professor at SUNY Old Westbury, and the author of Eyes on Labor and Dorothea Lange, Documentary Photography, and the Twentieth Century: Reinventing Self and Nation.Next, Deborah Small joins Katy to discuss two separate but related phenomena that describe the way we process information about small and large numbers. You can read her paper with George Loewenstein called Helping a Victim of Helping the Victim: Altruism and Identifiability for a deeper explanation of the identifiable victim effect and you can learn more about scope insensitivity through the work of Paul Slovic and others in the paper Scope insensitivity: The limits of intuitive valuation of human lives in public policy.Deborah Small is the Laura and John J. Pomerantz Professor of Marketing and Psychology at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Finally, Katy gives you simple strategies to help put larger numbers in context, and to make better decisions around seemingly abstract statistics.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0821-1VCR)
Most people wouldn’t attempt a marathon or a climb up Mount Everest without first working through some less audacious objectives. And yet there are countless examples of ambitious goals—new businesses, academic degrees, career changes, athletic feats—that were abandoned because they appeared too daunting in scope.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a simple strategy that can make your biggest goals more manageable.Shannon Miller is one of the most decorated athletes in the history of gymnastics. She is a seven-time Olympic medalist, and two-time inductee into the US Olympic Hall of Fame. While her ambitions as a young gymnast included competing at national and international events, she learned early on that achieving those lofty goals would require many small steps along the way. You’ll hear how Shannon Miller’s approach to goals led her to the pinnacle of her sport, and also helped her through a devastating illness.You can read more about Shannon Miller’s challenges and triumphs in her memoir, It’s Not About Perfect: Competing for my Country and Fighting for My Life. Next, Hal Hershfield joins Katy to explore how breaking your savings goals into smaller amounts and shorter intervals can help you overcome certain psychological hurdles. He also discusses scenarios where smaller monetary increments may not actually be in your best interest.Hal Hershfield is an Associate Professor of Marketing, Behavioral Decision Making, and Psychology at UCLA’s Anderson School of Management. Read his paper Temporal Reframing and Participation in a Savings Program: A Field Experiment for details on his research with Stephen Shu and Shlomo Benartzi.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0821-1VC5)
Important decisions can be complex and difficult to make. We’re at the mercy of certain behavioral biases, and we often face a degree of uncertainty. And while it’s helpful to be aware of our shortcomings and mindful of our incomplete picture of the world, there is a proven way to make better decisions, on balance.  In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how questioning our basic assumptions and thinking like a scientist can help us untangle the knottiest of problems and make choices with greater confidence.Luca Parmitano was the first Italian astronaut to perform an EVA—an extravehicular activity, otherwise known as a space walk—in 2013. During that EVA, Luca noticed a small amount of excess moisture in his space suit. Engineers chalked it up to a minor leak in his drinking container.But on his second EVA, Luca nearly drowned in space. You’ll hear from Luca himself about what happened and what it was like to have his helmet fill with water, 250 miles above the earth, outside the International Space Station. You’ll also hear how NASA worked to prevent a repeat of what has been called “the scariest wardrobe malfunction” in the agency’s history. Luca Parmitano is an astronaut with the European Space Agency and a colonel in the Italian Air Force.A version of Luca’s story appears in Adam Grant’s new book Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know.Adam Grant joined Katy to talk about the methods scientists use to avoid certain pitfalls, such as confirmation bias, in the search for objective information. Rather than treat our beliefs or opinions as truths, Adam encourages us to treat them instead as hunches. Hunches can be tested, as scientists test their hypotheses. Taking this scientific approach to difficult problems often yields better results in business, politics, and life.Adam Grant is the Saul P. Steinberg Professor of Management at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He’s also host of the popular TED podcast WorkLife. Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The policy analysis provided by the Charles Schwab & Co., Inc., does not constitute and should not be interpreted as an endorsement of any political party.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0621-1KMT)
Many episodes of this podcast deal with cognitive biases that can hinder our decision-making abilities. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a different kind of error: how completely irrelevant information can negatively influence our judgments, making them varied and unpredictable.This variability of human judgment—or noise—is the topic of a new book by Nobel Prize-winning economist Daniel Kahneman, with Cass Sunstein and Olivier Sibony. You’ll hear an interview with Kahneman later in the episode where he explains his preoccupation with the substantial and expensive effects of noise. He proposes ways to reduce the problem of noise for industries, businesses, and individuals who need to make more objective judgements.But first, we’ll dive into the world of wine judging. G.M. “Pooch” Pucilowski will take you on a guided tour of the California State Fair Commercial Wine Competition. You’ll hear about the criteria for judging different varietals—and the accompanying challenges that wine judges face as they swirl, sniff, and sip through dozens and sometimes hundreds of different wines. After years of coordinating and observing the judges, Pooch noticed a large amount of variability in the results. This may not be surprising, since taste is subjective. But after some tweaks to the process, he even began to notice that judges were inconsistent with themselves!Enter vintner and retired oceanographer Robert Hodgson. Pooch teamed up with Hodgson to devise a way to study and improve the consistency of wine judging and push for a more objective competition. The results were promising, but not without controversy.You can read Robert Hodgson’s research paper on wine judging here. G.M. “Pooch” Pucilowski is a speaker, writer, wine judge, and educator. He runs wine appreciation classes through his University of Wine.You’ll also hear about the potential role of chemical analysis and artificial intelligence in improving the results of wine judging from James Hutchinson, formerly of the Royal Society of Chemistry and currently CEO of KiwiNet.And finally, Katy explores the potential of leveraging noise to produce better decisions by employing the wisdom of crowds—and even “the crowd within.” Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal. (0521-1H4C)
If you’ve ever lost a job, or been through a breakup, or failed an exam, you’ll know that the aftermath can be painful and disorienting. But for some percentage of those who experience these disappointing outcomes, unforeseen opportunities will arise.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the occasional upside of being forced to quit a career, or a relationship, or even a favorite route to work.Kassia St. Clair brings us the story of William Henry Perkin. As a young man in 19th-century London, Perkin had set his sights on a career in chemistry and medicine. He devoted his time and energy to the search for a treatment for malaria, which was a growing problem around the world. Unfortunately, he failed in his quest, but his failure opened the door to a surprising new discovery that transformed an entire industry.Kassia St. Clair is a design journalist and the author of The Secret Lives of Color. Next, Annie Duke joins Katy to explain how events like a shutdown of the London subway system, or the COVID-19 pandemic, can sometimes surface new and previously unexplored options. She also discusses how our identities can be wrapped up in our choices, blinding us to alternatives that may actually serve us better.Annie Duke is a speaker and decision strategist. She’s also the author of How to Decide: Simple Tools for Making Better Choices. Finally, Katy explains that while giving up on important jobs, relationships, or habits may not always be the best option, the behavioral bias of escalation of commitment can cause us to experiment and explore too little in life.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The policy analysis provided by the Charles Schwab & Co., Inc., does not constitute and should not be interpreted as an endorsement of any political party.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.The book, How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.Apple Podcasts and the Apple logo are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.Google Podcasts and the Google Podcasts logo are trademarks of Google LLC.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.(0521-1681)
You probably have a list of reminders somewhere. Maybe you have a calendar with important dates marked. And likely a mental to-do list. And shopping lists. And gift ideas. And you’ve got to remember to get your taxes filed. And don’t forget to get those prescriptions filled before the drug store closes. And you’ve got to renew your insurance, and …There’s a lot of information to juggle in modern life. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at ways to improve reminders and reduce forgetting around things like voting, vaccinations, and international espionage.Sarah-Louise Miller is a doctoral candidate in the Department of War Studies at King’s College London. Sarah-Louise tells the story of Elizabeth Reynolds (a.k.a. Elizabeth “Minnie” Devereux-Rochester), a young courier operating behind enemy lines in France during the Second World War. Elizabeth’s ability to absorb and memorize information contributed greatly to the Allied war effort and may very well have saved her life.You’ll also hear from former Australian Secret Intelligence Service agent Warren Reed. He details the intensive memory training he encountered at MI6 and explains how memorization is key to an agent’s success and survival.Warren Reed is the author of several books on espionage. His latest is An Elephant On Your Nose.Next, Todd Rogers joins Katy to talk about research that addresses memory, forgetting, and reminders. Forgetting and “flaking out” on virtuous goals such as eating healthy, going to the gym, or voting is a major problem with negative consequences for individuals and communities. But with some subtle shifts in choice architecture, forgetting can be significantly reduced. Todd Rogers is a behavioral scientist and professor of public policy at the Harvard Kennedy School. His research paper with Kay Milkman is titled Reminders Through Association.Finally, Angela Duckworth explains how planning prompts or implementation intentions can be used by everyone, including school-aged children, to improve follow-through on goals.Angela Duckworth is professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and the author of Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.The policy analysis provided by the Charles Schwab & Co., Inc., does not constitute and should not be interpreted as an endorsement of any political party.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.The book, How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.Apple Podcasts and the Apple logo are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.Google Podcasts and the Google Podcasts logo are trademarks of Google LLC.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.(0421-12UW)
For many, the onset of the coronavirus pandemic was terrifying. Descriptions of the outbreak in Europe and Asia led to panic buying and sheltering in place here at home. But, as time passed and people became acclimatized to life with masks and social distancing, many of those same people who were terrified at the outset began to let their guard down and take unnecessary risks.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a peculiar inconsistency around how we perceive risk and rare events.Jeff Elison is a professor and an avid rock climber. Jeff tells the story of a fateful climb on a beautiful sunny day just outside of Alamosa, Colorado. Jeff normally climbs with friends, but on this particular day, none of his regular partners were available. Early in his climbing career, Jeff might have balked at a solo climb, but as a veteran, he felt confident that he could manage the familiar climb safely. But then, he slipped and fell. …Jeff Elison is a professor of psychology at Adams State University. He is also the author of the book Vertical Mind: Psychological Approaches for Optimal Rock Climbing.Next, Ido Erev joins Katy to explain how we often overweight rare events when we make decisions based on a description and underweight rare events when we make decisions from experience. You’ll hear about his research identifying this phenomenon, as well as several personal anecdotes demonstrating how all of us fall prey to these miscalculations from time to time.Ido Erev is a psychologist, professor, and vice dean of the MBA program at the Technion–Israel Institute of Technology.Finally, Katy discusses strategies to mitigate the downsides of the description-experience gap in risky choice and ways to leverage the fact that we often underweight rare opportunities as well.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.The book, How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Schwab has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.Apple Podcasts and the Apple logo are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.Google Podcasts and the Google Podcasts logo are trademarks of Google LLC.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.(0421-1BBF)
Have you ever visited your doctor to deal with a minor health issue and then left the office with nothing more than the doctor’s calming reassurance? Chances are good that you felt a bit better, physically, just by virtue of experiencing the environment of the clinic and anticipating some kind of improvement in your health.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we explore how your beliefs and expectations can have a very real impact on your health and well-being.Science journalist Erik Vance vividly recounts several peculiar experiences taking part in traditional healing ceremonies in Mexico. Erik examined certain aspects of these age-old rituals through the lens of modern science to discover some measurable effects on health. He also volunteered for a rather painful experiment in a research lab involving electric shocks with some surprising results.Erik Vance is a journalist and editor with the New York Times Well Desk. He’s also the author of the book: Suggestible You: The Curious Science of Your Brain’s Ability to Deceive, Transform, and Heal.Next, you’ll hear the results of a sneaky experiment with some unwitting volunteers involving special coffee.Then, Katy speaks with Alia Crum about her research into mindsets and the placebo effect and how they function to activate the body’s natural physiological abilities to heal itself. She explains how setting expectations can lead to improved outcomes in diet and exercise—and can have marked positive effects on stress management.Alia Crum is an assistant professor of psychology at Stanford University and the principal investigator of the Stanford Mind & Body Lab. Finally, Katy explains how you can leverage mindsets to help you achieve your goals.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresAll expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.The book, How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Schwab has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.Apple Podcasts and the Apple logo are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.Google Podcasts and the Google Podcasts logo are trademarks of Google LLC.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.(0321-1XM5)
Hardware stores and home improvement shows often promote do-it-yourself projects. And while it’s challenging to make your own projects look as good as the ones on TV or in glossy brochures, building something yourself can be a very rewarding experience. The trouble is, the DIY approach can sometimes cloud your perceptions of the value of your project.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how putting personal effort into something—be it a hand-knit scarf, a new deck, or even a small business—can lead people to overestimate the value of that effort.Michael Ojo is a web developer and pilot influencer. He runs a popular YouTube channel called MojoGrip, where he shares his love of aviation. It’s also where he documented a project near and dear to him: the building of his first kit airplane, the Sling TSI. You’ll hear the story of Michael’s epic project. Everything from the steep learning curve, to the technical challenges, to the trials and tribulations of building a complicated piece of machinery in the midst of a pandemic. And then, the big question: will it fly?Next, Mike Norton joins Katy to discuss the science behind why people tend to place a higher value on their own projects, using research that, among other experiments, observed volunteers as they completed simple origami projects and then had them auctioned off against origami made by an expert. The results were surprising, and quite charming, as you’ll hear from our re-enactment of the experiment.Michael I. Norton is the Harold M. Brierley Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and co-author of the book Happy Money: The Science of Smarter Spending.Finally, Katy discusses the ways in which you can leverage this effect to boost happiness and satisfaction, while avoiding the pitfalls of overvaluing your own handiwork.Choiceology with Katy Milkman is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal. (0321-1YAM)
In a past episode titled “Spoiled for Choice,” we looked at how decision-making can be hampered by our desire to avoid the painful emotion of regret. In fact, regret aversion can cause people to abandon certain decisions entirely.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look more closely at regret itself. Stirling Hart is a professional lumberjack. He’s also a world-class lumberjack sports athlete. He has travelled the world competing against the best of the best in events such as the underhand chop, the spring board, the single buck, and the standing block chop. These grueling and dangerous tasks require explosive strength, accuracy, and nerves of steel.In 2016, Stirling Hart represented Canada at the Stihl Timbersports® World Championship in Stuttgart, Germany. He was dominating the events until he came to the hot saw (an event involving a chainsaw built from a modified motorcycle engine). That’s when one split-second decision changed the course of the competition. You’ll hear how that one moment affected Stirling for months afterward.Stirling Hart lives and works in Squamish, British Columbia, Canada.Next, Katy speaks with Colin Camerer about the neuroscience of regret. Colin explains how regret arises and how it can affect our behavior, for better and for worse. You’ll hear about a fascinating study by Tom Gilovich identifying regret in Olympic medalists, and you’ll learn about the ways that regret can influence investment decisions. You’ll also gain valuable insight on how to minimize some of the negative effects of regret.Colin Camerer is a Robert Kirby Professor of Behavioral Finance and Economics at the California Institute of Technology, where he teaches cognitive psychology and economics. You can read more about regret in his paper “Neural Evidence of Regret and Its Implications for Investor Behavior.”Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.Investing involves risk, including loss of principal. (1020-081T)
For some people, the check engine light on their car dashboard means an immediate trip to the repair shop. But for others, it represents a nagging unpleasant feeling that’s best to be avoided. So they put it out of their mind for as long as they can. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we examine the tendency to avoid or ignore certain information when it may be uncomfortable or inconvenient.Amelia Boone is a high achiever. Within a short time of taking up the grueling sport of obstacle course racing, she was winning world championships. At the top of her game, she went looking for other challenges, and eventually took up ultra-running—where athletes compete in races longer than marathons, sometimes as long as 100 miles! Again, Amelia quickly rose to the upper echelons of this elite club of athletes.But then the injuries began. You’ll hear about Amelia’s attitude of pushing through the pain and training harder—an attitude that nearly destroyed her athletic career. When her injuries finally sidelined her from racing, Amelia realized that she’d been ignoring a crucial aspect of her health. Amelia Boone is an obstacle racer, ultra-runner, and attorney living in Colorado.Next, Emily Ho joins Katy to talk about the science behind this tendency to avoid certain types of information. She explains how the phenomenon impacts investors, medical patients, and employees, and she illustrates the perils of ignoring uncomfortable facts.Emily Ho is a research assistant professor at Northwestern University’s Department of Medical Social Sciences. You can read more about information avoidance in the research paper she co-authored with George Loewenstein and David Hagmann.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.(0920-0817)
You’ve probably had the annoying experience of going to a store to pick up a few things, only to leave having forgotten at least one of them. That’s likely due to the challenge of holding more than one piece of information in your working memory while you shop, not to mention the effects of time pressure, distraction, and the procedural complexity of a seemingly simple trip to a store.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at effective tools for managing complex and time-sensitive procedures, from grocery shopping to space exploration.Fifty years ago, astronauts aboard the Apollo 13 lunar spacecraft radioed Mission Control with the now iconic phrase “Houston, we’ve had a problem.” A critical piece of equipment had exploded, putting the three crew member’s lives in extreme danger. What followed was a monumental problem-solving effort to bring the astronauts safely back to Earth.Historian Andrew Chaikin tells the harrowing story of Apollo 13, based on his interviews with NASA engineers and the Apollo crew. You’ll hear about the incredibly complex and dangerous procedures involved in piloting the hobbled ship and how Mission Control and the crew used a simple tool—the checklist—to help limit potential errors and manage complicated operations.Andrew Chaikin is the author of A Man on The Moon: The Voyages of The Apollo Astronauts.Next, Kirabo Jackson joins Katy to explain his work studying the effectiveness of checklists in a more down-to-earth setting: auto repair shops. You’ll hear how the implementation of checklists improved productivity and increased profits for shop owners. Kirabo Jackson is the Abraham Harris Professor of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University. You can read more about his work in his research paper with Henry S. Schneider on checklists and worker behavior.Finally, Cass Sunstein discusses with Katy the more general topic of simplification. He explains how checklists and simplified processes can save governments and businesses money and time, as well as significantly increasing citizen participation in programs.Cass Sunstein is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School. He is also the founder and director of the Program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy at Harvard Law School, former administrator of the U.S. government’s Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, and author of many books. His latest book is Too Much Information: Understanding What You Don’t Want to Know.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.(0920-0U2X)
“Mom! Janey got more ice cream than me! Not fair!” For kids—and many adults—the notion of what’s fair or not often involves comparing quantities of some valuable thing. But there’s another, more nuanced concept of fairness that crops up in certain types of negotiations. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at what people perceive as fair or not amid changing circumstances.At the turn of the 20th century, professional baseball had entered what came to be known as the dead-ball era. Pitchers had a distinct advantage over batters, resulting in low-scoring games and a substantial drop in attendance. Owners and league officials decided they needed to change some rules to entice fans back to their stadiums. One option on the table was to ban the spitball.John Thorn explains the history of the spitball and other doctored pitches and describes the state of baseball at the time. While empty bleachers were clearly bad for the bottom line, the owners also recognized the problem of implementing a rule change that would likely destroy some pitchers’ careers. You’ll hear about the clever solution that the league arrived at to ensure a more exciting game without alienating their players.John Thorn is the official historian for Major League Baseball and the author of Baseball in the Garden of Eden: The Secret History of the Early Game.Next, Richard Thaler joins Katy to explain his pioneering work with Daniel Kahneman and Jack Knetsch in describing the principle of dual entitlement. You’ll hear about several different scenarios where the phenomenon occurs and how it relates to status quo bias.Richard Thaler is a Nobel Prize-winning economist and the Charles R. Walgreen Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and Economics at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business. He is the author of several books, including Misbehaving: The Making Of Behavioral Economics.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.(1020-0XDB)
Traditional economic theory says that more choice should always be better than less. After all, if the cereal aisle has corn flakes, honey nut corn flakes, toasted coconut corn flakes, chocolate corn flakes, multi-grain flakes, and all the rest, you’ll surely be able to find the breakfast carbs that suit your taste buds perfectly. But it turns out that, in certain situations, more choices can be counterproductive.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how having too many options can sometimes produce anxiety, reduce satisfaction, and even lead us to abandon the decision we’d planned to make altogether.You’ll hear from professional bridesmaid (yes, that’s a real thing) Jen Glantz about her experiences supporting brides through the many decisions they face in planning a wedding. Jen has seen it all: the fatigue, the indecision, the anxiety, and the emotional toll that can result from managing myriad choices while planning the big day.Jen, herself, is now engaged to be married. But rather than subject herself to that giant list of wedding day choices, she has come up with a clever plan to offload the decision-making effort.Jen Glantz runs Bridesmaid for Hire and is based in Brooklyn, New York.  Barry Schwartz is an academic authority on this phenomenon. His book The Paradox of Choice challenged traditional economic theory about the utility of ever-expanding options in prosperous societies. Barry joins Katy to explain where choice overload occurs, and where it doesn’t, and to discuss the benefits of satisficing when it comes to choosing televisions or restaurants or blue jeans. Barry Schwartz is the Dorwin P. Cartwright Professor Emeritus of Social Theory and Social Action at Swarthmore College.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.All corporate names are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security.(0820-03K4)
The rapid heartbeat. The shaking hands. The flushed face. The symptoms of pre-performance jitters are common. For some people, nervousness before a big test or important presentation is normal and temporary. For others, it can be debilitating. Typical suggestions for managing nerves tend to involve deep breaths and calming thoughts. But what if there were a better way?In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the science behind the state of arousal commonly referred to as stage fright, including new research into better ways to manage unpleasant emotions.You’ll hear world-renowned concert pianist Steven Osborne describe the agonizing moment during an important performance when he began to experience memory lapses due to anxiety. As the fear of making mistakes increased, Steven began to worry that stage fright could cost him the career he loved. But through therapy and reflection, he managed to flip the script on his anxiety—and came to see it as a gift to be explored. All of the piano music in this segment comes from Steven Osborne’s recordings. You can hear his complete performances on Beethoven Piano Sonatas Opp 109, 110 & 111 and Prokofiev Piano Sonatas Nos 6, 7 & 8, available on Hyperion Records.Next, Alison Wood Brooks joins Katy to talk about her fascinating research into stage fright using video game karaoke to discover the most effective techniques for managing and even leveraging pre-performance nerves.Alison Wood Brooks is the O’Brien Associate Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School. For more on her research, you can read her paper Get Excited: Reappraising Pre-performance Anxiety as Excitement.Finally, Katy explores other ways to regulate unpleasant emotions. These techniques can help improve outcomes for negotiations, job interviews, and schoolwork.For more on behavioral science—including additional content from the expert interviews featured on Choiceology—you can sign up for Katy’s newsletter at katymilkman.com/newsletter. Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.(0820-0BTM)
“In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun, and snap, the job’s a game!” So says Julie Andrews’ character in the Disney film Mary Poppins before she launches into the famous musical number “A Spoonful of Sugar.” In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the science behind the intuitive strategy of making difficult or boring things easier by adding that “element of fun.” But while Mary Poppins was focused on making the tedious task of cleaning a room a bit more enjoyable, you’ll see that this approach isn’t limited to housework.You’ll hear Nancy Strahl’s dramatic story of a life-threatening medical event. Her prognosis was grim, but thanks to grit, determination, and some pioneering work in gamifying rehabilitation by Professor Lynne Gauthier, Nancy made a remarkable recovery.Lynne Gauthier is an associate professor at the University of Massachusetts, Lowell, and director of the Neurorecovery and Brain Imaging Laboratory. Next, Dan Ariely recounts an incredibly difficult long-term treatment that he was able to endure and complete, thanks to a strategy known as temptation bundling (a term coined by Katy Milkman through her research into the phenomenon).Dan Ariely is the James B. Duke Professor of Psychology and Behavioral Economics at Duke University, and the author of several bestselling books, including Predictably Irrational.Finally, Ayelet Fishbach joins Katy to discuss research into myriad ways that adding enjoyable elements to difficult or tedious tasks can improve outcomes in everything from math education to exercise to job satisfaction. Ayelet Fishbach is the Jeffrey Breakenridge Keller Professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important Disclosures:All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.The comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third-party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable sources. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed.(0520-0DAP)
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Comments (9)

ashkan allahyari

Interesting

Oct 25th
Reply

Mir

Felt like this episode was filled with: 1. Productivity bias - the belief that the sum utility of an action comes from the end result produced. It doesn’t account for the psychological benefits like - the self perception of autonomy and control (which is immensely vital to healthy human minds), the utility gained from the pleasure of performing the action. Productivity bias is just plain harmful if followed through in excess. Sure machines are more efficient than humans, in fact machines are so efficient at everything that you can literally argue successfully to plug humans into a set up, feed them intravenously, send impulses to their brain which stimulates flavour and texture, have them live their lives virtually - while machines do the real life stuff - producing more for humans whose sole purpose apparently is to consume and be productive. This might seem excessive in the case of self driving cars, but the condescension and lack of ability to understand why humans might not want to cede control over certain acts just let me boggled. Data for the win? Maybe it was never about winning, but the climb to the the top. Goodness sake

Jun 5th
Reply

Mir

Lovely episode!!

Jun 5th
Reply

Olga Koleshchuk

I love your podcasts but I couldn't finish this one, it's a slow torture to listen to Richard Thaler speak.

May 20th
Reply

MOCHIE KUE

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Mar 2nd
Reply

Bernard Gregg

I am instantly in love with this podcast. I get smarter after every episode.

Oct 22nd
Reply

Happy⚛️Heritic

great topics

Oct 12th
Reply

Fernando Madrigal

sound is not clear

Feb 24th
Reply

Matrix

Amazing!

Oct 14th
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