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Evolution 2.0

Author: Perry Marshall

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The Evolution 2.0 Podcast explores the intersection of art, technology, business, biology and spirituality. Discover new trends in evolution that change the way we think about everything. Host Perry Marshall is author of Evolution 2.0 and founded the Evolution 2.0 Technology Prize, a $10 million quest for the missing link between the information age and life itself.

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66 Episodes
Jenny Davis is a professional athlete from Scotland who found out she had bowel cancer 9 months ago. She tells her very personal story of chemotherapy treatments, introspection, detox, and our broken medical system. See for privacy and opt-out information.
John Sonmez interviews Perry Marshall and they discuss why it’s impossible for computers in their current form to become conscious; how modern mathematics speaks in a new way to age-old questions about free will; the nature of consciousness; the origin of life and the very nature of reality itself. All this is based on Perry’s paper “Biology transcends the limits of computation. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Rich Jacobs indulged his fascination with technology by starting a podcast called Finding Genius. He didn’t know that it would end up taking him into hundreds of specialties in science, technology, and medicine. His book titled Finding Genius: Understanding Viruses: 30 Questions, 25 Geniuses, 100 Amazing Insights is a beautifully edited compilation of Q&A from some of the best virus people in the world. Here we explore what Rich discovered about viruses and their experts. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Eric Kuelker Ph.D. R.Psych. discusses reliable but little-known research linking cancer and heart disease to traumatic life events and stress. It turns out that psychotherapy and relationship repair reduces the chances of cancer and factors like marriage extend life more than medical treatments do. This may extend it down to the cellular level.Eric’s website is K, Bellis MA, Hardcastle KA, Sethi D, Butchart A, Mikton C, Jones L, Dunne MP. (2017) The effect of multiple adverse childhood experiences on health: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Lancet Public Health. Aug;2(8):e356-e366. AL, Huang T, Koenen KC, Kim Y, Kubzansky LD, Tworoger SS. (2019) Post-traumatic stress disorder is associated with increased risk of ovarian cancer: A prospective and retrospective longitudinal cohort study. Cancer Res. Oct 1;79(19): 5113-5120. Lu D, Sundström K, Sparén P, Fall K, Sjölander A, Dillner J, Helm NY, Adami HO, Valdimarsdóttir U, Fang F. (2016). Bereavement is associated with an increased risk of HPV infection and cervical cancer: An epidemiological study in Sweden. Cancer Res. Feb 1;76(3): 643-51. RL, Owen M, Fagan-Murphy A, Intabli H, Healy D, Patel A, Allen MC, Patel BA, Flint MS. (2017) Glucocorticoids induce production of reactive oxygen species/reactive nitrogen species and DNA damage through an iNOS mediated pathway in breast cancer. Breast Cancer Res. Mar 24;19(1):35. Morath J, Moreno-Villanueva M, Hamuni G, Kolassa S, Ruf-Leuschner M, Schauer M, Elbert T, Bürkle A, Kolassa IT. (2014) Effects of psychotherapy on DNA strand break accumulation originating from traumatic stress. Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics. 83(5):289-97. Bellis MA, Hughes K, Ford K, Ramos Rodriguez G, Sethi D, Passmore J. (2019) Life course health consequences and associated annual costs of adverse childhood experiences across Europe and North America: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Lancet Public Health. Oct;4(10): e517-e528. C, Richter J, Mahr M, Gajewska A, Schiele MA, Gehrmann A, Schmidt B, Lesch KP, Lang T, Helbig-Lang S, Pauli P, Kircher T, Reif A, Rief W, Vossbeck-Elsebusch AN, Arolt V, Wittchen HU, Hamm AO, Deckert J, Domschke K. (2016). MAOA gene hypomethylation in panic disorder: Reversibility of an epigenetic risk pattern by psychotherapy. Transl Psychiatry. Apr 5;6(4):e773. doi: 10.1038/tp.2016.41 S, Lester KJ, Hudson JL, Rapee RM, Creswell C, Cooper PJ, Thirlwall KJ, Coleman JR, Breen G, Wong CC, Eley TC. (2014). Serotonin transporter [corrected] methylation and response to cognitive behavior therapy in children with anxiety disorders. Transl Psychiatry. Sep 16;4(9):e444. S, Keers R, Breen G, Coleman JRI, Jöhren P, Kepa A, Lester KJ, Margraf J, Scheider S, Teismann T, Wannemüller A, Eley TC, Wong CCY. (2019). DNA methylation of FKBP5 and response to exposure-based psychological therapy. Am J Med Genet B Neuropsychiatr Genet. Mar;180(2):150-158. E, Szabó C, Kelemen O, Kéri S. (2013). Association among clinical response, hippocampal volume, and FKBP5 gene expression in individuals with posttraumatic stress disorder receiving cognitive behavioral therapy. Biol Psychiatry. Dec 1;74(11): 793-800. doi: 10.1016/j.biopsych.2013.05.017é Y, Witteveen AB, El-Hage W, Veltman DJ, Olff M. (2012). Differences between effects of psychological versus pharmacological treatments on functional and morphological brain alterations in anxiety disorders and major depressive disorder: A systematic review. Neurosci Biobehav Rev. Jan;36(1): 626-44. L, Santarnecchi E, Casolaro I, Koukouna D, Caterini C, Cecchini F, Fortini V, Vatti G, Marino D, Fernandez I, Rossi A, Fagiolini A. (2017). Morphovolumetric changes after EMDR treatment in drug-naïve PTSD patients. Riv Psichiatr. Jan-Feb;52(1): 24-31. AA, Chen MH, McCarthy EP, et al. Marital status and survival in patients with cancer. (2013) J Clin Oncol. 31: 3869‐3876. S, Jo B, Kraemer HC, Ershadi M, Neri E, Spiegel D. (2019). "Not just another meta-analysis": Sources of heterogeneity in psychosocial treatment effect on cancer survival. Cancer Med. Jan;8(1): 363-373. M (2019) The Computational Boundary of a “Self”: Developmental Bioelectricity Drives Multicellularity and Scale-Free Cognition. Front. Psychol. 10:2688. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Rob Berkley left this earth in December 2019 as a result of cancer. 58. Rob was THE most empathic and warm-hearted individual in the entire marketing space (I’m not exaggerating). When you would sit down with him you would feel his warmth focusing on you like an infrared heat lamp. He was one of my most valuable business advisors. Being trained by him and Victor Cheng was like having Oprah and Stephen Hawking together in the same room.Stormy weather nearly prevented me from making his memorial at Martha’s Vineyard, but I managed to snag the boat ride and I’ll never forget the December 18 solstice sun streaming through the windows at his somber yet joyful gathering.The other thing I will never forget is meeting his wife Debbie for the first time, right there at his memorial service. I had heard much about her, and she had heard about me, but we had never crossed paths.I approached her in their kitchen and introduced myself. “Perry! I am so delighted to meet you!” She faced me squarely, looked deep into my eyes, and connected, human to human. I instantly felt the jolt of her conviction and aliveness. She wrapped her arms around me, embraced me, and welcomed me as though I were a friend of 25 years. Her energy was so palpable I was momentarily startled.It only makes sense that Rob would marry a woman like Debbie.Today I would like to share Rob’s last interview with you: a very candid conversation between Rob, Debbie, and their caregiver and collaborator Meredith, describing humility and courage in the face of a terminal diagnosis. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Mark Chenoweth is a theologian with a particular interest in St. Maximus the Confessor (700 AD) and St. Gregory of Nyssa (400 AD) who wrote about life on earth as a goal-directed process as opposed to a series of divine miracles. Their ideas were very much in line with the ancient Greeks who have been greatly under-estimated by modern thinkers. Here we hear Mark's story of being drawn into evolutionary science and what implications this has for modern people. Mark's paper is called "A Maximian Framework for Understanding Evolution".LINK:'s BioMark Chenoweth received his M.Div. and Th.M. from St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and is an adjunct professor at St. John’s University in New York. His articles have been published in scholarly journals such as St. Vladimir’s Quarterly, and he is hoping to soon begin a dissertation on the theology of St. Maximus the Confessor. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Zombie Cells Gone Wild

Zombie Cells Gone Wild


How does a psychology prof find herself writing a book on cancer evolution?And what does this have to do with the Zombie Apocalypse? Today’sconversation is with Dr. Athena Aktipis from Arizona State University, whohosts the Zombified podcast. We explore the not-so-obvious byproducts thatemerge you change the rules of cooperation and convention-defyingbreakthroughs in cancer treatment.WEBSITE LINKS:Athena’s personal website: podcast: www.Zombified.orgThe Cheating Cell: How Evolution Helps Us Understand and Treat Cancer See for privacy and opt-out information.
Sam Devis is a former pastor who experienced a faith deconversion a couple of years ago similar to that of my brother, Bryan. After reading Evolution 2.0, Sam and I got together to discuss my journey from fundamentalism to where I am today. We cover many fascinating aspects from Darwinist Jerry Coyne's outrage to the nature of fundamentalist belief structures to evolution and entrepreneurship to questions about the cosmos and free will. Sam's website is See for privacy and opt-out information.
Einstein’s theory of relativity overturned Newtonian physics in the early 1900s. Nevertheless, “Newtonian” thinking has remained firmly entrenched inscience. Certainly, all scientists now agree that at the subatomic level and atnear light speed, quantum physics overtakes Newtonian physics. But thishas had very little effect on biology and has done nothing to overturn the“reductionist” view of science, which says that everything is merely the sumof its parts and all can be modeled by mathematics.Stuart Kauffman and computer scientist Andrea Roli have written a newpaper that proves evolving biology in principle cannot be reduced tocomputation. This is as devastating to materialistic science as Gödel’sIncompleteness Theorem was to mathematics. In fact, it is equivalent -because it shows that evolving organisms embody incompleteness.Induction, not a deduction. And induction cannot come from deduction;therefore biology is not strictly computational.Thus Kauffman and Roli have pulled the rug out from under ultra-traditionalviews of physics. (Not everyone is going to be happy about this.) Here, PerryMarshall and Stuart Kauffman jazz improvise on the vast implications of thisnew, holistic view of the universe.You can read their paper “The World is Not a Theorem” at See for privacy and opt-out information.
Today if you’re diagnosed with Stage 3 or Stage 4 cancer, your chances of surviving are no better than if you lived in 1930. But your chances are 100 times better when catch it early.What if you could catch cancer SUPER early - years before any obvious indication of a problem?And what if you could then solve the problem at its roots so it never recurs at all?Azra Raza is an oncologist at Colombia University and author of The First Cell: The Human Costs of Pursuing Cancer to the Last. Here she describes the First Cell Project. This is a collaboration with world class cancer researchers who have discovered how to identify “Giant Cells” that PREDATE and predict the generation of tumors YEARS in advance.You’ll be privy to the incredibly moving story of Andrew, her daughter’s best friend who died of brain cancer at age 24… and the systemic problems that continue to plague the cancer field and repeat the tragedy of Andrew. Here we discuss why only outsiders will solve these problems.WEBSITE LINKS: www.firstcellcenter.comBe sure and watch my previous interview with Azra Raza at - it’s a barn burner and provides important background that gives rich context to this new discussion. See for privacy and opt-out information.
This is a unique show in the Finding Genius series. Podcast founder and host Richard Jacobs cites Perry Marshall’s ideas as the impetus for starting the Finding Genius podcast.In this discussion, listeners can learn more about why and hear about the Cancer & Evolution Symposium Marshall has helped construct on cancer and evolutionary biology.He explains:What the basic ideas of his book Evolution 2.0 are, namely an argument for a new model for evolution that better fits organisms’ active adaptationsHow cancer is evolution gone wild and why better cancer treatment necessitates adopting this new conception of evolutionWhich topics and speakers appear in the Cancer and Evolution Symposium and a preview of several exciting findings they presented.Perry Marshall is an author and highly influential business consultant with an electrical engineering background. In this discussion, he connects the foundational ideas in Evolution 2.0 with cutting-edge cancer science. Marshall lost his father to cancer at age 17 and has followed the theories behind its treatment ever since. He reminds listeners that common cancer therapy treatment only works routinely with early-stage cancer.Alternatively, he says that when cancer reaches stages 3 and 4, survival chances are not that much better than they were in 1930. Therefore, there must be a lag in how we are addressing serious cancer diagnoses. This lag is connected with a traditional view of passive evolutionary theory rather than theories like that of Professor Henry Heng, who claims evolution is actively engineered by organisms themselves; in addition, they are able to pass those engineered traits to their offspring.Henry Heng was one of the speakers at the Cancer and Evolution Symposium along with Columbia University Medical Center’s Azra Raza and evolutionary theorist James Shapiro from the University of Chicago. Dr. Heng connects this theory of evolution and cancer, noting that treatments like chemo destroy about 98% of the cancer cells while the few remaining develop massive wholesale restructuring of their DNA and are then more equipped to spread and survive. Importantly, this restructuring is active rather than a random accident of mutations.Marshall explains these ideas in more detail and discusses other topics covered by the speakers. He describes the symposium as a world-class collection of cancer and evolutionary theorists coming together to address cancer evolution and disable the cancer treatment lag. The symposium took place October 14th through 16th, 2020.To learn more - see the symposium website: See for privacy and opt-out information.
Perry Marshall was invited to Notre Dame Business School to present at a masters level class on new trends in medicine and biology. This talk canvases a spectrum of issues from COVID- 19, virus evolution and the dark underbelly of cancer research. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Perry Marshall discusses avenues of research that may uncover the mystery of what makes life alive. See for privacy and opt-out information.
In 2019, I interviewed Joel Salatin, advocate of alternate farming. Our conversation prompted me to predict for the decade 2020 - 2029 that laws would be overturned making local food production and distribution a rising economic force. I didn't know then that COVID was about to speed that process up 10X. Here's what's happened since then. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Dr. Michael Levin of Tufts University crosses many disciplines: computer science, embryo development, cancer and tumor research; limb regeneration; evolutionary theory and neural networks. If you watch some of Michael's fascinating talks at he'll take you down his magical rabbit hole including worms that grow new heads when you cut them in half, tumors that heal themselves and eyes planted on tails that actually work. In this interview, Michael explodes the myth that "we've got it mostly figured out." The truth is closer to 1% understanding and 99% is Dark Matter. Discover Michael's research at and See for privacy and opt-out information.
Azra Raza treated cancer patients for 30 years, but not even the loss of her Oncologist husband could provoke her to write a book. It took the death of her daughter’s dearest 22 year old friend - when suddenly she realized she had to speak up. Here we discuss the one most important thing that The System overlooks - THE PATIENT’S ANGUISH - and speaks out about the state of cancer research in the 21st century. Groupthink, sexism, ignorance of history, and absence of empathy… and no one is in charge.A quarter-trillion dollars later, we’re still carrying out the same punishing treatments we were doling out in the 1970s - where life extensions of six weeks are heralded as "breakthroughs." We discuss the “Cancer Cambrian” and the great black hole that is our grasp of cancer cellular evolution. Finally, witness Azra’s dream of a superior system for detecting and beating cancer. See for privacy and opt-out information.
James Tour, a renowned nanochemist at Rice University, has been openly critical of Origin Of Life literature for being too optimistic, too sanguine and at times misleading. See this video for example: When Perry Marshall took part in a discussion on the Unbelievable show with Denis Noble and Lee Cronin, host Justin Brierley mentioned Tour and his criticism. A reaction ensued, which led to Tour and Cronin going head to head on an international radio program and podcast. Here, we re-broadcast the scene that provoked the controversy and the debate that followed. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Addy Pross is a Chemist at Ben Gurion University in Israel. He's author of "What is Life: How Chemistry Becomes Biology" by Oxford University Press. Here we enjoyed a great conversation about his specialty, Systems Chemistry, a new branch of science that enables us to build complex networks of chemical reactions like those found inside of cells. We explore the unanswered questions that continue to perplex scientists of all kinds. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Lynn Margulis, who died in 2012, was a piercing luminary in the history of evolutionary theory. She overturned the money changer's tables in the temple of science and infuriated a lot of people. But history has continued to vindicate her. In this interview, she and Conner explore a very different way of thinking about life itself and you’ll hear her brilliant mind and feisty posture.Conner Habib's Patreon: See for privacy and opt-out information.
William Miller tells his story of being seduced into evolutionary science by a mysterious female named Sue. See for privacy and opt-out information.
Comments (2)

Richard S

First time listening to this podcast. it seems strange, not only are the ideas about mobile genetic elements affecting evolution, and this guy who is apparently an expert, but he seems to not know about epigenetics and the evidence that those changes can also be inherited.

Aug 25th


Thoroughly enjoying this podcast.

Jul 9th
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