KickBack - The Global Anticorruption Podcast

The Kenyan anti-corruption campaigner and activist, John Githongo, speaks to Liz Dávid-Barrett (Centre for the Study of Corruption). The episode covers key moments in John's career including his involvement in the formation of Transparency International and time spent as Permanent Secretary for Governance and Ethics in the Kenyan government in the early 2000s. John and Liz further discuss what lessons can be taken from Kenya's fight against corruption and the particularly the role of anti-corruption institutions.

Dr. Magnus Öhman, senior political finance adviser at the International Foundation for Electoral Systems, speaks to the Kickback team. Magnus discusses the challenges of corruption and political trust against the wider global context of increased democratic backsliding. There is specific focus on approaches to tackling the problem of illicit finance in politics, including the potential of artificial intelligence for improving transparency.

Grant Walton, Associate Professor at the Crawford School of Public Policy (Australian National University, speaks to Dan Hough about his research on corruption in Papua New Guinea (PNG). A key focus for Grant has been to explore what people understand by corruption in PNG and how this compares to Western understandings of the term. The disconnection between the two has implications for how we approach messaging on countering corruption which risks being ineffective or even backfiring if it does not account for local understandings. Grant also outlines the formal state anti-corruption institutions in place in PNG, leading to discussion on the appropriate roles for external actors in supporting these institutions. Publications mentioned by Grant in the podcast can be found on his research profile, here: https://crawford.anu.edu.au/people/academic/grant-walton?tb=publication

Professor Dan Hough (University of Sussex), Professor Elizabeth Dávid-Barrett (University of Sussex/ International Anti-Corruption Academy) and Dr. Roxana Bratu (King's College London) provide an introduction to corruption measurement debates. They explore questions like: How has measurement of corruption changed over the three decades? What are the best tools currently available for measuring corruption? What are the strengths and weaknesses of these tools? What are 'proxy indicators' for measuring corruption? What do users actually want from corruption measurement tools?

Andrew Wedeman, Professor of Political Science at Georgia State University, speaks to Professor Dan Hough about the politics of anti-corruption campaigns in China. Andrew analyses the anti-corruption campaign instigated by President Xi Jinping and also puts this into historical perspective. Andrew and Dan discuss the effects this campaign has had on Chinese society at all levels and whether there really is any evidence of progress in controlling corruption in the country. Andrew additionally talks about some of the challenges in researching these issues and where research on this topic could go next in China.

Cheri-Leigh Erasmus, Global Director of Learning at the Accountability Lab, speaks to Dan Hough, Professor of Politics at the Centre for the Study of Corruption. She describes Accountability Lab's distinctive approach to building integrity in the civil service with examples from across the globe. She shares some lessons from this work and offers plenty of ideas for how to engage new audiences in anti-corruption work. You can see more on the work of Accountability Lab here, https://accountabilitylab.org/

Claudia Baez Camargo, Head of Public Governance at the Basel Institute, talks to Liz Dávid-Barrett about her work on applying social norms theory to analysing corruption issues. The episode takes in examples of applied research in East Africa and Ukraine, while Claudia's thinking on corruption is also influenced by her upbringing in Mexico. Claudia describes some successes in altering social norms around corruption in health settings but equally some of the challenges in sustaining these initiatives. In addition, Claudia talks about her work analysing informal networks of corrupt actors as well as how we might use insights from behavioural science to improve anti-corruption interventions.

This episode features Cecilia Müller Torbrand, CEO of the Maritime Anti-Corruption Network (MACN). She speaks to Liz Dávid-Barrett about the work of MACN, a network of shipping businesses which has been making some real headway in reducing corruption risks in this sector. The MACN story offers lots of valuable lessons for researchers and practitioners. Cecilia talks about how MACN has succeeded in framing its messaging around trade and commerce to engage government and the private sector in anti-corruption work. She also describes the incredible data MACN has compiled on corruption incidents and risks in the sector, which it uses to push for change. Detailed examples from Argentina and Nigeria show how the model works in practice and provide evidenced examples of change.

Luís de Sousa, deputy director and research fellow at ICS-ULisboa, speaks to Robert Barrington, professor of anti-corruption practice at the Centre for the Study of Corruption, on a range of topics. Luís is well-known for his research on anti-corruption agencies and in the episode he discusses country cases and conditions for success. This is also the first Kickback episode to discuss Portugal in depth. Lessons from Portugal on the politicization of anti-corruption measures, the role of external actors in reform, and the importance of local government will be of real interest to researchers and practitioners working in comparable contexts.

In this episode recorded on the margins of the International Anti-Corruption Conference, Paul Massaro, senior policy advisor for the U.S. Helsinki Commission, speaks to Liz Dávid-Barrett. Paul discusses the drivers behind the Enablers Act and the role of the US in countering kleptocracy. The conversation also covers the effectiveness of international sanctions on corruption and the importance of counter-kleptocracy work to ending the war in Ukraine.

Kicking off 2023 we were delighted to have Dame Margaret Hodge join us to talk about integrity issues in the UK. She speaks to Dr. Sam Power, Senior Lecturer at the Sussex Centre for the Study of Corruption, to talk about her fascinating route into politics and how this naturally led her to focus on integrity. The episode covers corruption issues in the UK including the UK's role in wider international patterns of corruption. Margaret and Sam discuss some practical responses to these issues which will be of real interest to reformers in the UK and other countries facing similar challenges.

This episode from the margins of the International Anti-Corruption Conference in Washington DC features Shannon Green, Executive Director of USAID's Anti-Corruption Task Force. Shannon talks to Liz Dávid-Barrett about the agency's new anti-corruption strategy. They also focus on the challenge of fighting kleptocracies and USAID's new dekleptification guide. Here are links to the resources discussed USAID anti-corruption strategy: https://www.usaid.gov/anti-corruption/policy USAID dekleptification guide: https://www.usaid.gov/anti-corruption/dekleptification

We are delighted to announce that the Centre for the Study of Corruption (CSC) at the University of Sussex is the new home of Kickback. The centre will be hosting the podcast over the next three years. We look forward to continuing the great work of the original Kickback team and welcoming an interesting range of guests from across the anti-corruption community. Robert Barrington talks more about the handover in a blog for the CSC (link below). In this episode, Matthew Stephenson talks to Liz Dávid-Barrett about what we have learnt from Kickback so far. He also offers his thoughts on the major themes and challenges the anti-corruption field should be tackling. These include 'the political economy of anti-corruption reform' as well as the proper place for theory in anti-corruption work. We additionally take this opportunity to ask Matthew about his latest research. He talks about a recent paper on the US experience of anti-corruption which provides some evidence to support an incremental theory of anti-corruption reform in contrast to 'big bang' explanations. There will be new episodes coming from the CSC in the new year so stay posted! Blog on the handover from Robert Barrington - https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/centre-for-the-study-of-corruption/2022/12/06/kickback-the-global-anti-corruption-podcast-now-hosted-by-the-csc/ Here are links to papers discussed by Matthew - Taming systemic corruption: The American experience and its implications for contemporary debates - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305750X21003703 - co-authored with Mariano-Florentino Cuèllar Corruption as a self-reinforcing trap - https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/36810

Ahead of the Qatar World Cup, we welcome Maggie Murphy, CEO of Lewes Football Club and a former Senior Global Advocacy Manager at Transparency International. She speaks to Dan Hough, self-professed football obsessive and Professor of Politics at Sussex University. Maggie takes us through her journey from anti-corruption campaigning to football management. She and Dan discuss the ethical problems affecting football, including the FIFA scandal, and how these issues exacerbate inequity between the men's and women's games. Maggie offers an alternative vision for ethical club management which we can all buy into.

In the first of a series of episodes hosted by the Centre for the Study of Corruption at the University of Sussex, we welcome Daniel Kaufmann. Daniel is a senior fellow at Results for Development (R4D) and President Emeritus at the Natural Resource Governance Institute (NRGI). He is also a former Director of the World Bank where he headed programmes related to corruption and governance. He is well-known in the anti-corruption field for his work co-developing leading global indices, including the Worldwide Governance Indicators. In this episode Daniel speaks to Liz Dávid-Barrett, Professor of Governance and Integrity at the University of Sussex, about his route into this field. As leading scholars on state capture, Daniel and Liz talk through the origins of the term in the 1990s and how the concept has evolved since then. The discussion takes us through several cases including countries in the Balkans, South Africa, the UK and US. The conversation finishes on the challenging measuring the problem of state capture.

We welcome Andrii Borovyk (@Borovyk_UA), Executive Director of Transparency International Ukraine, and Gretta Fenner (@gretweets), the managing director of the Basel Institute for Governance. Andrii and Gretta describe their background and how they ended up in their current positions. How the invasion changed anti-corruption work within Ukraine, how reconstruction efforts have already begun, and which corruption risks need to be taken care of to ensure effective reconstruction efforts, emphasizing the need for powerful anti-corruption institutions, better conditionalities as well as open, accessible, and centralized public information repositories. The interview discusses the approach towards conditionalities taken by the IMF, how they change in times of war, and the importance of the donors' abilities to trace the money spent. Finally, the three discuss the need for an inspector general for Ukraine and whether to create new or strengthen existing anti-corruption institutions. Links during the episode: Revolution of Dignity in Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity More information about the different anti-corruption institutions in Ukraine: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/11-episode-daria-kaleniuk-final Strategic corruption in the context of Ukraine and Europe: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/70-episode-oksana-huss-joseph-pozsgai-alvarez-on-the-war-in-ukraine The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU): https://nabu.gov.ua/en Joint paper by Basel Institute of Governance and TI Ukraine: https://baselgovernance.org/publications/ukraine-recovery-conference-anti-corruption-critical-condition-sustainable-recovery Prozorro Public Procurement Platform: https://prozorro.gov.ua/en Open Contracting Partnership: https://www.open-contracting.org/ Post-war reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/59-jodi-vittori-on-corruption-and-the-us-military-operation-in-afghanistan & https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/60-kate-bateman-on-the-special-inspector-general-for-afghanistan-reconstruction

We welcome Mihaly Fazekas, assistant professor at the Central European University, Department of Public Policy, who works on a range of topics related to corruption. The interview covers how how his own personal experience with bad public infrastructure inspired him to conduct corruption research, why he believes that corruption research would benefit from a better understanding of what are actually ymeasuring when we study corruption and the importance of investigative journalism (for example the invesgtative journalism center direct36; https://www.direkt36.hu/en/). Mihaly then makes a compelling pitch why public procurement offers a relevant and interesting subject for corruption researchers. The enf of the interview deals with the intersection between big data, technology and corruption, such as whether new corruption risks emanate from Artificial Intelligence and how AI conversely might be used to fight corruption. Concrete examples mentioned: the e-procurement portal Dozorro in Ukraine: https://oecd-opsi.org/innovations/dozorro/ Mihaly’s pick of the podcast: the classic computer game civilization II: https://civilization.com/de-DE/civilization-2/ Further reading on AI and anti-corruption: Fazekas, M., & Kocsis, G. (2020). Uncovering high-level corruption: cross-national objective corruption risk indicators using public procurement data. British Journal of Political Science, 50(1), 155-164. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-political-science/article/uncovering-highlevel-corruption-crossnational-objective-corruption-risk-indicators-using-public-procurement-data/8A1742693965AA92BE4D2BA53EADFDF0 Abdou, A., Basdevant, O., David-Barrett, E., & Fazekas, M. (2022). Assessing Vulnerabilities to Corruption in Public Procurement and Their Price Impact. IMF Working Papers, 2022(094). https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/001/2022/094/article-A001-en.xml Adam, I., & Fazekas, M. (2021). Are emerging technologies helping win the fight against corruption? A review of the state of evidence. Information Economics and Policy, 57, 100950. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016762452100038X Köbis, N., Starke, C., & Rahwan, I. (2022). The promise and perils of using artificial intelligence to fight corruption. Nature Machine Intelligence, 4(5), 418-424. https://www.nature.com/articles/s42256-022-00489-1.epdf?sharing_token=EdeuqUBk2oKscPxws-8D8tRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MSvwdFseOcM6qa-7nxQYsZYARiqghH2fBcU3_YVcnprrGjCkjAT_ckOEcdYz5UF1qnHidcuHymvw9CuowLifDJHoE1fGJ8XeL2AP-YJttRiF8JbxMcwgUWCUAzAK5ZbBE%3D

Michel Sapin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Sapin) served as a Minister of Finance in France from 1992 to 1993 and 2014 to 2017 and now works as a Senior Advisor for Franklin Lawyers with a specialization in anti-corruption laws. Valentina Lana is a Lecturer at the Sciences Po law school in Paris. Matthew Stephenson interviews the two to discuss the French anti-corruption law known as the la loi Sapin II. They cover why France’s approach towards anti-corruption changed when Michel worked for the government and the importance of the notion of “public interest” in the process. The interview also touches on the surprises and disappointing aspects of the law and how it differs from US legislation against corruption. The three discuss how the French approach toward anti-corruption can inspire other nations to follow suit. If you want to read more about France’s anti-corruption turn-around law, you can find Valentina’s and Michel’s guest post on the Global Anti-corruption blog: https://globalanticorruptionblog.com/2022/04/14/guest-post-frances-anticorruption-turnaround-and-the-path-forward/

We are thrilled to welcome Ray Fisman (@RFisman), Professor of Economics at Boston University, long-standing corruption expert and author of Economic Gangsters: Corruption, Violence, and the Poverty of Nations (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691144696/economic-gangsters) (with Ed Miguel) and Corruption: What everybody needs to know (https://books.google.de/books/about/Corruption.html?id=XdVKDgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y) (with Miriam Golden). Matthew and Ray sat down to discuss the classic question whether corruption always hinders development, which types of corruption are particularly harmful, conversations that inspired Ray’s career and Ray’s more recent work on the hidden influence of political connections. You can find all the referenced papers below: Professor Louis T. Wells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_T._Wells) whose work on Indonesia influenced Ray Samuel Huntington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Huntington) who coined the idea that corruption may grease the wheels Moncur Olsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson) who introduced the distinction between some forms of centralized corruption being like a stationary bandit while other less centralized are like roving bandits Andrej Shleifer and Robert Vishny’s famous QJE paper entitled Corruptionhttps://academic.oup.com/qje/article/108/3/599/1881822?login=true Benjamin Olken and Patrick Barron’s work in Aceh introducing the idea of a toll booth theory of corruption https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/599707?casa_token=FXxoxMmoqHYAAAAA%3ARSJD5IXWK31c7PjQO_vIuBlNTyZPOCRhiszsBLnTd_j0Sn8rbN5kPkO-aK4bj_zLiKYaHe0xBLeN Shang-Jin Wei’s work on the varying prices of bribes https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/cbs-directory/detail/sw2446 New York Times Article of mine collapse in China: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/27/world/asia/china-mine-disaster.html Ray & Marianne Bertrand’s work on hidden influence of political connectedness: https://gcgc.global/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/5.-Yegen_Politics_Ownership_compressed.pdf https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20180615

Today, we welcome investigative journalist Frederik Obermaier (@f_obermaier). In the interview, we cover the Suisse Secrets (https://www.occrp.org/en/suisse-secrets/). Frederik also mentions the China Cables uncovering surveillance and mass internment without charge or trial of Uighurs and other Muslim minorities in Xinjiang, China (https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/). We also discuss the Swiss Bank Secrecy Law and its infamous article 47 undermining Media Freedom in Switzerland): https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/may/02/swiss-consider-amending-banking-secrecy-laws-amid-un-pressure Pop-culture references in the interview: The Laundromat(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuBRcfe4bSo) Frederik's pick of the podcast: Money Men (Dan McCrum) about the Wirecard Scandal: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/144/1444756/money-men/9781787635043.html