Learning By Living Podcast

Listeners know today’s guest well. She’s Gina Riley, the co-host of this podcast. Gina is an educational psychologist, a Clinical Professor in the Adolescent Special Education Program at CUNY – Hunter College and, of course, she has a big interest in unschooling, even having written a book called Unschooling: Learning Beyond the Classroom. Today, we’re talking about a 2018 study she did, appropriately titled Exploring Unschoolers Experiences Learning to Read, where she analyzes the experiences of 28 unschoolers. What were the similarities and differences, and what can teachers and parents learn from these experiences? Stay tuned for a really informative discussion. 6:32 - Learning to read in a very ‘schooled’ world: “I think there is a lot of pressure from the outside world regarding learning to read.” 11:31 - Is there a critical period by which kids should start learning to read? “It was a really interesting finding that I’m always surprised at.”17:19 - Intrinsic motivation and learning to read: “I have my books and I can read any of those that I want.” 24;27 - Isn’t reading too complex to learn without instruction?: ”I love these programs for kids who need them, but it’s not all knowing what a consonant and a vowel is.” 29:00 - What can conventional school teachers (and parents) learn from how unschoolers learn to read?: “We don’t need kids to always learn grade or age-based books.” 34:22 - What can parents and families learn from unschoolers’ experience learning to read?: “The more other people see things are enjoyable, the more apt they are to do them themselves.”

On this episode, Gina interviews the show's co-host, Kevin Currie-Knight, about his experience with self-directed learning. Kevin is a professor in East Carolina University's College of Education where he teaches future teachers. But he teaches in a way that leans heavily on self-directed learning where students have control over what to learn, how to learn it, and even how to evaluate themselves. He's written a recent article about his experience teaching this way, and here is a fantastic conversation about it! 1:19 - Kevin’s self-directed college course: “At various spots along the way, my thinking started changing to include a lot more emphasis on self-directed education.” 9:20 - What types of projects do students do?: “It’s just so all over the map.” 17:17 - What motivates students? What doesn’t?: “I’ve seen in my own classroom the power of intrinsic motivation.” 25:13 - The difficulty of giving up instructional control: “Set up the rules for the class, monitor everything, but you don’t have to be the center of it.” 31:32 - What do students have to say about this approach?: “Every semester, I still get a few comments which are like ‘I’m confused as to what this is.’”

In this episode, we talk to Xaq Rzetelny. Xaq is a grown unschooler, science writer, and communicator of science focusing on astrophysics. He's also been a radio host and most recently, a performer at Liberty Science Center's Jennifer Chalsty Planetarium, the largest in the Western Hemisphere. Gina and Kevin sat down with Xaq to talk about the transition from unschooling to college to career, how unschooling and college led to an interest in the sciences, and much more. Enjoy the episode. 1:37 - Transition from Unschooling to college: “My first day, I’m sitting there in my seat in class in terror.”10:20 - Social Life as an Unschooled Kid (and in College): “I did have friends outside of college so if I wanted to hang out with somebody… I am going to hang out with my friends outside of college.”13:51 - How did Xaq Develop an Interest in Science? “That course blew my mind. It just answered so many of the questions.” 18:03 - Learning the Torturous Subject of Math: “I skipped all of that, and I had to take one semester struggling with math and then I got back on track and I was fine.” 30:33 - From Unschooling to Science: “having learned by embracing your curiosity… perfectly suited me for this job.”

Today’s guest, Dr. Kate Green, has five very successful, alternatively educated young adult and teen children of her own. She also loves working as an educational consultant, to help other families make decisions that enable their children to joyfully excel. Kate, Gina, and I talked about what it is like to raise FIVE unschooled - or maybe worldschooled - kids, how each found their own unique path, balancing work and parenting, and more. So stay tuned for a great episode. 2:29 - The journey from schooling to unschooling: “I had to wear the teacher hat and then go back to the parent hat. And that wasn’t an authentic way of living.”10:45 - Unschooling while working: “You just learn to have snacks readily available.” 13:12 - What are the “kids” up to?: “They’re able to follow their passions and… swap mid-plan.” 19:06 - Gaming, Screens, and Unschooling: “I think this is 21st Century social emotional learning skills that you have to build in virtual worlds.”24:30 - Does Kate’s academic work (in Education) intersect with unschooling?: “I take great pride in walking outside of that traditional arena.”29:44 - Unschooling and the family relationship: “It doesn’t matter if you hit a benchmark in math or literature. What matters is the relationship you have with people.”

Since doing this podcast, one thing Gina and I have noticed about self-directed learning is that people who undertake it in their formative years develop a really strong sense of self - the kind of sense of self that is unafraid to take on any limits around them. That's definitely true of today's guest, Ki Aoaygi. Ki discovered self-directed learning around the high school years and has gone on, among other things, to work `at the self-directed Sego Lilly school in Utah. Enjoy a fascinating conversation!4:47 - When Ki Discovered Self-Directed Learning and Living: “It was a journey with a lot of ups and downs.” 9:54 - Is self-direction a natural trait or an acquired one: “When older students come in, it takes some time to adjust to that style of self-directed learning.” 15:15 - More about How Ki discovered self-directed learning at Not Back to School Camp: “I was surrounded by other teenagers who had lived their entire lives this way.”22:26 - Working at a self-directed school in times of uncertainty: “Learning isn’t just something that stops in your k-12 years.” 28:13- Is self-directed learning only for self-starters?: “To me, self-directed learning is not about not going to typical classes. It is about being able to formulate how you learn.” 32:26 - Benefits and challenges of working at a self-directed school: “I really have to let myself just let them be.”

This episode’s guest has been advising teens to opt out of school for over two decades now. Ken Danford used to be a middle school teacher, but once he discovered self-directed learning, he co-founded the North Star Learning Center for Teens, a space where teenagers have control of their time and learning. Twenty some years later, North Star is thriving and has given way to the Liberated Learner network of Learning Centers. Ken even wrote a book about it, called Learning is Natural, School is Optional. Gina and Ken sat down to talk about what learning looks like at North Star and why he thinks, like the title of his book, that learning is natural and schooling should be optional. 1:27 - Ken talks about his path from middle-school teaching to self-directed learning for teens: “If it’s all true, then why aren’t more kids doing it?” 15:39 - Ken talks about what learning looks like at Northstar Learning Center: “It’s way easier than you want it to be. Just let it be easy.”19:47 - Is self-directed learning for all kids?: “People need to learn how to manage themselves without being told what to do.” 23:26 - Can schools learn anything from self-directed learning?: “Schools are actually doing the functions that our society wants schools to be doing.”25:43 - How do North Star kids turn out?: “It’s not hard, but there’s a path, and the burden is on you to demonstrate that you’re ready.” 37:23 - Ken’s book and what’s next for him and Northstar?: “Helping local kids not go to school by having the support of a local program is mostly what i do.”

What happens when kids rule the school? Well, that - When Kids Rule the School - is the title of a recent book by today’s guest, Jim Rietmulder. Jim is is a founding staff member at The Circle School in Pennsylvania, which is among the oldest self-directed democratic schools, where kids really do rule the school. They choose what they want to do with their time as well as create and uphold school rules. Kevin, Jim, and Gina sat down to talk about what all of this looks like in practice, as well as why Jim thinks that learning should not be the primary aim of school. We hope you enjoy this fascinating conversation. 4:00 - Kevin Plays the Skeptic (“What Do They Learn?): “I think what is more important than learning to multiply fractions is developing the capacity to multiply fractions.” 13:42: - What Do Kids Do at the Circle School?: “It would be kids doing things that kids love to do.” 18:52 - Talking About Screen Time: “You’re often going to have a friend saying ‘Come on; there’s a Capture the Flag game going on!’”27:18 - Learning, Happiness, and Self-Fulfillment “I don’t think that learning is the most important thing that should be going on in schools.” 35:03 - Gina Plays the Skeptic (“How Will They Get Jobs?”): “What we see in our graduates is very reassuring to the skeptical observer.” 39:39 - Arnie Learns to Write a Term Paper (in College!): “He did the hard work he had to do to get to the goal he was after.”

On this episode, we are joined by Robin Alpern, a 65-year-old white woman who narrowly missed a career as an elementary school teacher. Instead, she and her former husband unschooled their four children to college. This was largely in the 1990’s, and since there weren’t many resources for unschoolers, Robin co-founded the Tri-County Homeschoolers network, which, as we’ll hear, helped Gina when her own family unschooled. Robin, Gina and I talk about the challenges and benefits of unschooling in the ‘90’s, the diverse ways her children learned, and much more. Enjoy. 1:46 - Robin’s Decision to Unschool in the 1990’s: “We knew we were pioneering something. I mean, none of us had grown up with anything like this.”6:44 - Robin’s Children Learning by Living: “As homeschoolers, we weren’t actively shutting down his learning processes, so he did what you do: he learned. ” 14:33 - Struggling to Let Kids Make Their Own Choices: “She had spent the whole year when she was six begging to go to school.” 20:30 - Benefits and Challenges of Unschooling: “It was hard having neighbors and people in our community who felt that we were actually abusing our children for homeschooling them.” 24:26 - Unschooling When Few Others Were: “This was pretty much an experiment, and who knew what was going to happen?” 32:33 - Robin’s Children Go to College: “She kind of had to learn over night the things that other kids were learning all along, like how to take notes in class.”

Our guest for this episode has worked as a research fellow at the Environmental Protection Agency, and will soon be working toward her PhD in microbiology at Dartmouth College. But her first day of school was at the age of 14, when she decided to attend a public high school after being homeschooled without any formal curriculum. Today, we talk with Alice Goldstein-Plesser about her unique educational path from homeschool to high school to college to a career in the natural sciences, what the transition from and to each of these was like, and what Alice thinks is the connection between her homeschooled background and her deep love for science and the natural world. Stay tuned for a wonderful and wide-ranging episode. 2:38 - Why Alice’s Family Chose Homeschooling - “They looked at each other and said, ‘Let’s look for something else,' and found homeschooling.” 10:00 - Alice Decides to Go to High School: “ At some point, I wanted to learn science in a more traditional way.”18:39 - Alice’s First Class - AP US History: “That class put me through the ringer and I came out much more knowledge about academics.”28:12 - Is College More Like Homeschooling or High School?: ”Going to college, it was sort of a mixed bag.” 34:11 - Alice’s Life Now as a Scientist: “I’ve always thought that homeschooling taught me how to learn really well and how to find resources. But so did college, and so did high school…”36:41 - Alice’s Retrospective Thoughts on Homeschooling: “I think every person learns very differently, and every person is in a very different situation.”

Our guest today, Hope Wilder is the founder of Pathfinder Community School, a learning community where kids truly learn by living. A lifelong learner herself, Hope had an accelerated experience of the public school system, graduating from the University of South Carolina at the age of 19 with degrees in Biology and German. For the dozen years before starting Pathfinder, she worked and played as an alternative outdoor educator and science teacher at private schools and local nonprofits. Hope, Kevin, and I sat down to talk about Hope’s experience watching kids learn through freedom and play, and what can happen when learners are truly in charge. Full disclosure: Kevin is also a member of Pathfinder’s Board of Directors where he currently serves as Board President.1:39 - From Outdoor Educator to Founder of Self-Directed School: “I kind of made a vow to never teach somebody again who didn’t want to learn what I was teaching.” 6:10 - Stores from Hope’s Internship at Self-Directed Schools: “I saw a fifteen year old turn to a thirteen year old and said, ‘Hey, what’s the stock market?’”14:24 - Giving Everyone an Equal Voice in Running a School: “Chore time came and we said, ‘Nope… we're trying out this idea from this one kid to not do chores to see if they’re necessary.’”12:54 - What Types of People Choose Pathfinder? “People come to self-directed education for all different kinds of reasons.” 35:09 - How Kids Learn at Pathfinder: “They knew what they wanted to learn, so it was easy peasy.” 44:47 - Lessons Learned from a Self-Directed School: “The negative way to say it is ‘Don’t squish them.’”

Our guest on this episode, Bria Bloom, has seen self-directed learning from two perspectives. Bria is a born and raised unschooler who now has the daily joy of parenting a self-directed learner. She is also a passionate advocate for self-directed education and young people's rights, and channels this into her work with various organizations including the Alliance for Self-Directed Education, where she is the executive director. Kevin and Bria sat down to talk about Bria’s unschooled childhood, the transition into college, and going on to help raise a self-directed child. Stay tuned for a great episode! 1:57 - Why and How Bria's Family Decided to Unschool: "I'm glad that they broke with convention and didn't care what people thought."5:34 - What It Was Like to Grow Up Unschooling (in a Schooled World): "I remember watching kids at recess and feeling really bad for them." 13:04 - The Virtues of Playing a Lot and Lack of Formal Curriculum: “It’s never just play in my opinion.” 22:09 - Deciding to Go to College: “In terms of the transition, it wasn’t that difficult.” 31:10 - Remedying Gaps in Knowledge: “A gap doesn’t mean you missed something that you can never go back to.” 34:35 - Raising a Self-Directed Step Son: “There is some effort in it and especially in finding people and communities to connect with.”

How do self-directed teens prepare for adult life? What is the value of allowing teens to “do nothing” with their time? Today, we talk with Katy Burke, a former public school teacher of 11 years who, frustrated with standardized testing, gave up teaching in a conventional school and found work in the Princeton Learning Cooperative. There, she helps teens learn what and live how they want. On this episode, we talk about her journey into self-directed learning, the problem with forced testing, and other topics. Enjoy the discussion. 0:50 - Katy's Decision to Leave the Teaching Profession After 13 years: “Everything started to get more and more data-driven, and it wasn't the direction I could see myself going.”9:06 - Katy Finds (and Describes) the Princeton Learning Cooperative: “We don’t spend any time doing anything that isn’t worth it.” 11:02 - How Do Teen Make Progress Without Forced Tests or Grades?: “In the real world, there aren’t really tests or quizzes all that often.”17:59 - Teens Preparing for Adulthood: “We want to see that kids are capable of making choices on their own.” 20:52 - The Significance of Downtime: “I had to adjust to that and it kind of made me nervous as well.” 27:56 - Remedying Gaps in Their Knowledge and Preparing for College: “It’s not as scary as it might seem. It’s actually, I think, a pretty smooth process.”

Entrepreneur, disability rights activist, and advocate of self-directed learning. Our guest today, Jim Flannery, is all of these. Jim is a former high school physics teacher who now advocates for self-directed learning and is the creator of the Peer Unschooling Network, a digital community for young self-directed learners. His latest project is an app that teaches young people how to thrive without school called, Curricu-Dumb: what teachers can't tell you. Gina and Kevin sat down with Jim for a wide-ranging conversation about everything from how he came across self-directed learning, his experiences creating spaces for self-directed teens, and the role of technology in learning. 1:55 - How Technology Affects the Need for Reading and Literacies: “We are speculating about what the future is going to be like. But do we really know?”12:37 - Jim’s Winding Path from Entrepreneurship to Self-Directed Learning: “So, I went and taught, and I was like ‘Wow, it is actually worse than I thought.’”20:32 - The Trial and Error of Creating Open Source High School “Instead of it always being that we have young people who are made to feel helpless… why not allow young people to lean on each other for support?” 26:56 - From Open Source High School to the Peer Unschooling Network: They wished that it was easier to find and meet other young unschoolers.”34:33 - Unschooling as a Different Way to Learn and Socialize: “We think of social skills in such a limited way.” 38:26 - Learning as a Deceptively Social Process: “It could be just as powerful for me to say ‘I found this book that was really cool; you might want to check it out,’ and hand you the book.”

Current studies report that around 50% of public school teachers leave the profession entirely within their first five years. Our guest today, Cassidy Younghans, taught 7th grade English in a public school for 5 years before leaving school teaching and finding a more fulfilling, way to work with young people, shifting her path towards Self-Directed Education. Gina sat down with Cassidy to talk about Cassidy’s journey from conventional school teacher to these self-directed spaces including her co-founding of the Epic Life Learning Community. They also talked about the differences Cassidy noticed between learning in conventional schools and what kids do when they own their own learning and living. Here’s their fantastic conversation.2:03 - Cassidy’s Life as a Public School Teacher: “This is beautiful. I can’t make this for my kids within the system we are in.”5:55 - Cassidy Discovers Self-Directed Alternatives: “You just do it. You learn it by doing it.” 11:43 - Differences Between Conventional Schools and Self-Directed Spaces: “A lot of the conversations I had with the kids at the [Sudbury] school were similar to conversations I’d have after school with public school kids.” 17:21 - Cassidy Notices Changes in Herself: “You realize you still have to grow.” 22:54 - What Cassidy is Doing Now: ” Kristen called me and she was like, ‘Hey… We’re thinking about opening this thing. Do you want to be a part of it?’”

While teaching in a conventional school, David Lane has found ways to bring the power of self-directed learning to learners both in and out of school settings. Years ago, he co-created the now defunct Ingenuity Hub, an self-directed alternative to school. He has also taught a self-directed high school class where students decided what and how they wanted to learn. Kevin, David, and Gina about how self-directed learning can look inside of conventional schools, its value for learners, and even about the benefits of not always focusing on learning. 1:14 - How David Discovered Self-Directed Learning as a Teacher: “I don’t think it was a straight line.”9:48 - The Value of Not Being “On-Task”: “For them, it was as significant an experience to say “Wait a minute; what is my time worth, and why don’t I know?”13:03 - How Self-Directed Learning Can Empower Learners in Conventional Schools: “I think it is not fair that so many kids don’t know that this is available to them.”21:49 - Experiencing High Schoolers Directing Their Own Learning: “‘Do you understand that you just explained chemistry? Did you know any of that stuff before you tried this?’ He said, No…’”28:29 - Challenges and Benefits of Self-Directed Learning in Conventional Schools: “Once kids start experiencing that process, you can’t stop it. You can’t turn it off after that.” 32:22 - Why Self-Directed Learning is Often Relegated to the “Extra-Curricular”: Here’s a kid graduating high school already knowing how to do the work that he wants to do… and high school has nothing to do with it.” 38:05 - Learner Difficulties Adjusting to Self-Directed Learning: “In most of the classes they take, they’re just playing a game, and the educators know it.”

n this episode, Gina and Kevin sit down with author, podcaster, and unschooler of two, Akilah Richards. We have a wide-ranging conversation about what motivated Akilah and her family to unschool, what learning looks like when decoupled from compulsory school, the promise of unschooling for people-of-color communities, and much more. 2:58 - How Akilah and her Family Discovered Unschooling: “Over time, Chris and I decided that what the girls kept pushing for was relevant and worth looking into.” 9:25 - Learning Languages Without Curriculum: “Marley and Sage began to learn languages that certainly I wasn’t teaching them.”14:17 - Learning Things Like Reading and Math Without School: “He went from ‘Mom, can you slow down?’ to ‘Can you just sit here and can I ask you when I don’t know a word?” to “I don’t need you here anymore.’” 17:31 - Learning Rapidly When You Have Interest: “They glomb onto a thing and they partner with it.” 23:40 - Unschooling's Potential for Persons of Color: “ I can raise two black girls who can feel free to study anime and manga and language and history in a world that tells them specifically who they should be and who they aren’t” 28:25 - Unschooling and Decentering Whiteness: “You’re not not seeing color; you’re saying this exists. So, now I’m not centering it and conforming to it.” 34:54 - Akilah’s Experience and Work in the Unschooling Movement: “I’m such an unschooler…. I get to everything just really from curiosity and discovery and emergent structure.” 38:33 - Unschooling and Formal Instruction: “She found a tutor on Skype who was going to take her through a curriculum.”

Over a recent holiday vacation, Kevin caught up with relatives of his about their experience unschooling. This family, with kids ranging in age from 7 months to twelve years, came upon unschooling almost by accident. They originally set out to homeschool their children, but noticed that the children learned much more by following their passions. Wishing to remain anonymous, the family sat down with Kevin for a face-to-face discussion everything from what their kids choose to do with their time to the benefits and the self-doubt that come with unschooling. Enjoy. 1:07 - How the family found their way to unschooling: “I would say it was not necessarily our original plan.”4:40 - How the Kids Learned to Read: “He just took off!” 8:54 - Accommodating Diverse Interests: “I really learn along with the kids.”11:18 - A Bit of Formal Curriculum: “It just helps me feel at ease or at peace more.”14:44 - Anxieties and Difficulties of Unschooling in a Schooled Culture: “It’s almost a ‘comparing with the Jones’” type mentality that I think we all struggle with.”24:38 - Some More Anxieties About Unschooling: “I remember us having anxieties that he’s wasting so much time.” 29:51 - Biggest Challenges (and Benefits) of Unschooling: “Mommy, what grade am I in?” 34:44 - Biggest Benefits of Unschooling: “They’ve been able to learn the process of following something until the interest wanes.” 39:09 - What Advice Do You Have for Others? “they’re getting a really great education just by being around you.”

DESCRIPTION: Lainie Liberti and her son Miro Siegel join us on this episode to talk about worldschooling. 11 years ago, Lainie and Miro hit the road for what was supposed to be a one year adventure. Ever since, Lainie and Miro have been traveling slowly around the globe and learning from the world rather than from school. They join us to talk about what it looks like to learn freely from the world as well as Project World School, a program they developed to help bring the worldschooling experience to others.1:07 - Lainie, Miro, and How They Started Their Adventure: “Back then, we didn’t know we’d be doing it eleven years later.” 9:09 - The Difference Between Learning in School and Learning from the World: “When you’re traveling, you’re basically the one who who takes ownership over the experience you are having.” 15:11 - Examples of Learning from the World Without School: “As unschoolers, we don’t divide subjects.” 23:49 - How Did Project World School Come About?: “Surely, if I feel this way, there is no way I can be the only one.” 28:00 - How does Project World School Work?: “Whoever people thought they were back home, they get to recreate who they want to be.”33:18 - For Those Who Are Reluctant About Worldschooling: “It’s really not as inaccessible as people think it is.” 39:32 - Words of Advice: “Try and find a place where you can be comfortable being uncomfortable.”

What does it look like when teens get the freedom to direct their own learning in a conventional school? On this episode, we find out by talking to Mike Powell, a guidance counselor at Monument Mountain High School in Western Massachusetts. Mike has served as a long-time faculty advisory to the Independent Project, a student-run program that allows teens to choose what and how they want to learn. We talk about the types of things students have done in the program, the transition from conventional classrooms to the Independent Project (and back), and many other things.00:57 - What is the Independent Project?:“The Independent Project is an opportunity for students to... be the author of what it is they are going to try to study.”7:26 – Students in the Independent Project as resourceful and proactive learners: “Part of this project has to do with learning how to use your resources and access your resources.”15:32 – What kinds of students choose (and benefitted from) a self-directed program like the Independent Project?: “The one thing they all had in common was a deep appreciation for having an opportunity to guide their own learning but also for…. each other’s passion.”22:06 – Staying motivated without formal grades: “Students became more courageous to try things that they may not have had any inkling to try in a traditional environment.”28:59 – Challenges (for adults and students) within the Independent Project: “There were a number of challenging conversations that had to be had.”36:45 – Transitioning from the Independent Project back to conventional classrooms: “They were so much more apt to ask for help in this program… than students I would see in a mainstream program.”

Matthew Gioia is a long-time staff member at the Hudson Valley Sudbury School, and before that, was a middle school teacher. On this episode, we talk to Matthew about the kinds of learning by living he sees at HVSS, how the school works, and the different experiences of teaching middle school and supporting students at HVSS. 1:42 - Matt’s Experience as a Middle School Teacher: “The principal was patting me on the back saying ‘Good job,’ but I didn’t feel good.”9:51 -Matt’s Journey to Hudson Valley Sudbury School: “I had a different idea of what would be happening at this school.” 14:49 - Kinds of Activity and Learning at HVSS: “I split things into.... three categories…: casual, organized or formal, and governance.” 23:37 - Learning Through and Participating In School Governance: “The school itself isn’t focused on classroom activity; it is focused on… the governance of the school.” 31:44 - Life is About Making Space for Doing What You Love: “If you want to do something, you have to do it. You have to make it happen and keep after it.” 37:11 - Learning “Schoolish” Things at HVSS: “It’s just happening as they are pursuing their interests. And it really is true, and it really does work.” 42:40 - Students Who Transition to Conventional Schools: “They managed to compress what would have been nine years in a classroom into one year.”