TrustTalk - It's all about Trust

In this episode, we're joined by Carine de Meyere, the dynamic founder and president of Women of the World. Carine shares her vision behind her mission: to unite and empower one million women and girls by 2030. Set against the goals of the United Nations Sustainable Development, she details her path of ambition, recognition, and the pivotal role trust plays in building meaningful connections and collaborations. Carine takes an in-depth look at how women navigate and overcome obstacles in male-dominated fields, highlighting the crucial roles of mentorship, leadership, and trust, offering her insights on the need for women in leadership, the connection between trust and empowerment, and the effects of cultural differences on trust. We discuss topics such as the importance of women's leadership for global peace and decision-making, the pressing need for systemic change, and the empowerment of women in politics and other areas. The conversation with Carine de Meyere provides a motivational call to action to foster a more just, trusting, and equal world. Get ready to be inspired, challenged, and encouraged to join the movement towards achieving gender equality and strengthening sisterhood worldwide.

In this episode of TrustTalk, Professor Emerita at New York University, Marion Nestle, a prominent advocate in the field of food politics and public health, discusses her journey and insights into the food industry, trust in our food system, and the intersection of food, health, and sustainability. Growing up with a radical background, Marion was influenced by values of fairness and equity, which she carried into her career, initially trained as a scientist before shifting focus to nutrition and food systems. She critiques the food industry's prioritization of profit over public health and highlights the essential need for government intervention and public support to address the disparities in food access and the impact of food production on the environment. Marion discusses the challenges of feeding a growing global population and the misalignment between food companies' profit motives and the need for sustainable, healthy food access for all. She advocates for a more diverse and regulated food industry to ensure environmental sustainability and public health. Addressing the controversy surrounding GMOs, she criticizes the food industry for eroding public trust through lack of transparency and misrepresentation of GMOs' role in feeding the world. She underscores the importance of sustainability in the food system and the obstacles faced due to the industry's resistance to practices that may reduce profit margins. She encourages governmental pressure on the food industry to adopt better practices for the greater good. Discussing food choices, Nestle emphasizes the simplicity of maintaining a healthy diet through sensible eating habits and advocates for government and societal efforts to combat obesity by transforming the food environment. Finally, Marion addresses the need for focused research on making healthy foods accessible and sustainable, highlighting the importance of addressing climate change through food production. Her ongoing commitment to writing and research reflects her dedication to improving food systems and public health. The interview illuminates the complexities of trust, food politics, and sustainability, emphasizing the need for informed action and advocacy to foster a healthier, more equitable food system.

Our guest today is Roger Mayer, Professor of Management, Innovation & Entrepreneurship at North Carolina State University. He discusses his foundational 1995 article on trust, emphasizing its role in risk-taking within professional settings and reflects on the evolution of his model, which defines trust as the willingness to make oneself vulnerable to another entity (be it a person, group, or technology) without having the ability to directly control or monitor their actions, distinguishing it from trustworthiness. Roger Mayer responds to criticisms by underscoring the intentional simplicity and broad relevance of his trust model, which was designed with minimal variables for wide applicability, including unexpected fields like AI and robotics. He acknowledges the trade-offs of this approach but values the model's capacity to spark debate and advance scientific discourse He also previews his upcoming book, "A Research Agenda for Trust: Interdisciplinary Perspectives," aiming to facilitate interdisciplinary research in trust. Additionally, he explores trust in autonomous technology, distinguishing between trust in the technology itself and its creators. He revisits his 1995 trust model in the context of government trust, introducing a new measure assessing vulnerability. Mayer explores the often-overlooked dimension of police officers' trust in the public, underscoring the importance of bidirectional trust. He unveils that officers are inclined to engage more openly and take proactive measures when they sense a higher degree of trust from the public. This viewpoint pivots the conventional emphasis from how much the public trusts the police to a more reciprocal understanding of trust, where the perceptions of law enforcement about public trust play a crucial role. He also addresses the challenges faced by university research, critiquing the excessive focus on production over impactful, meaningful research. He advocates for a balance between theoretical exploration and practical application, urging researchers to ensure their work contributes tangibly to society. This approach, he suggests, is essential for bridging the gap between academic research and real-world societal benefits, particularly in the field of trust.

Kees van den Bos, author of the book "The Fair Process Effect," explains his extensive research on societal conflicts and the pivotal role of trust. Through his book he underscores the critical importance of fair treatment by authorities in nurturing trust and cooperation within society. He introduces the "Perceived Procedural Justice Scale," designed to quantitatively assess fairness, highlighting how fairness is integral to fostering a sense of belonging and respectful treatment among community members. Van den Bos's research goes further to explore the detrimental effects that perceived unfairness can have, such as fostering distrust and societal polarization. He provides a comprehensive perspective on these issues, emphasizing the need for early intervention in societal conflicts. By advising authorities and citizens to remain vigilant to societal dynamics, recognize and validate the concerns of various community members, and ensure these concerns are met with understanding and appreciation, he offers a pathway towards mitigating these negative impacts. Moreover, Van den Bos stresses the importance of adopting normative standpoints that reinforce democratic values, including peaceful and respectful treatment of one another and the maintenance of the rule of law. He acknowledges the imperfections in societal institutions, such as the legal system, but advocates for continuous efforts to enhance their functioning. This balanced approach is crucial for maintaining the fabric of a democratic society, even if it means accepting some losses as the cost of upholding fundamental values. Through this lens, Van den Bos provides a logical and informative framework for addressing and preventing the issues of distrust, polarization, and conspiracy thinking that can arise from perceived unfairness.

In this episode, we explore the complex relationship between trust, control, and HR practices with our guest, Antoinette Weibel, Professor of Human Resources Management at the University of St. Gallen (Switzerland). She talks about how control mechanisms, from coordination to surveillance, impact trust in the workplace. The conversation highlights the difference between enabling and coercive controls, how bureaucracy can sometimes nurture trust, and the critical role of HR in nurturing trustful relationships. We also delve into the nuances between distrust and low trust, the ethical implications of technology use, and the importance of research and consultancy in building authentic trust.

Our guest today is Anu Bradford, the Henry L. Moses Professor of Law and International Organization at Columbia Law School and the author of the book 'Digital Empires: The Global Battle to Regulate Technology'. In this conversation, Bradford explores the complex digital future where technology regulation, innovation, and trust intersect. She discusses the distinct regulatory paths of the US, China, and the EU, predicting a world split between techno democracies and autocracies. Delving into the geopolitical intricacies, Bradford sheds light on the challenges faced by companies like Nvidia and ASML amidst global tech tensions. Her profound insights into the power dynamics between tech giants, and states, and the need for assertive regulation offer a nuanced perspective on building a balanced, trust-centered digital society.

Our guest, Bob Hurley, Professor Leading People and Organizations at the Gabelli School of Business at Fordham University (New York), talks about his theory of organizational capacity for trustworthiness, highlighting Unilever's approach to genetically modified foods, Bob Moore's employee ownership plan at Bob's Red Mill and how external pressures shape organizational adaptations, using examples like the global financial crisis and Mattel's product safety issues. He reviews BAE Systems' response to a bribery scandal and Salesforce's stakeholder engagement, emphasizing the importance of robust governance and competence in building trust. His comprehensive analysis offers insights into business ethics, leadership, the importance of governance and organizational behavior, focusing on the core aspects of trust in today's business environment. Hurley stresses the balance between short-term responses and long-term trust-building strategies, emphasizing the role of competent leadership in fostering a trustworthy organizational environment. This comprehensive discussion offers valuable insights into the evolution and management of trust in complex corporate settings.

In episode 83, enjoy a heartwarming conversation with Santa Claus. Santa discusses maintaining trust with children and adults, shares touching stories where trust made Christmas wishes come true, and reflects on his role as a symbol of joy and generosity. The interview also delves into how Santa ensures inclusivity for all children, manages the secrets and wishes shared with him, and the importance of trust within his team at the North Pole. Santa leaves listeners with a powerful message about trust and the spirit of Christmas.

Jeanine Turner, our guest in episode 82 of TrustTalk, delves into the complex interplay of trust and communication. She examines the influence of storytelling and media in shaping public trust, particularly in contexts of global conflict, while addressing the prevalent issues of fake news and media scepticism. In her enlightening discussion, Turner spotlights significant takeaways from her book "Being Present," highlighting the criticality of maintaining a mindful social presence amid the distractions of the digital world. Further, she imparts insightful guidance on nurturing personal relationships and trust in a digital landscape. Jeanine also ventures into the future of communication technologies, notably the integration of AI, underscoring the growing importance of empathy in our increasingly digital interactions.

Our guest in episode 81 is Dan Abrahams, a renowned sports psychologist, who delves into the mental aspects of sports. Dan emphasizes the foundational role of trust in both individual performance and team dynamics, explaining how it's as crucial in team sports like football and basketball as in individual sports such as tennis and golf. The discussion includes Dan's unique approach to mental skills training, tailored for athletes at all levels, and his innovative 'Game Face' concept, which assists athletes in achieving their optimal mental state for peak performance. Dan also touches upon the function of sports psychologists in premier football teams, with a particular focus on Ajax and Manchester United, detailing the importance of psychological strategies and trust cultivation in enhancing team performance. Additionally, the episode covers how breaches in trust can impact an athlete's performance and overall well-being, and the role of sports psychologists in rebuilding trust following major scandals. This episode is a must-listen not only for sports enthusiasts but for anyone interested in the psychological elements that drive success and effective teamwork.

Our guest today is Sim Sitkin, a Professor at Duke University, Durham (N.C.) He explores the intricate dynamics between trust and distrust, highlighting their distinct natures and the challenges involved in navigating these complex emotional states. He uncovers the nuances of how trust can vary incrementally across different domains, and contrasts this with the pervasive and often unyielding nature of distrust. He provides perspective on the vital role of values in shaping trust relationships. Through Sitkin's study involving a Dutch court, we learn how value incongruence between groups can lead to a breakdown in communication and trust, explaining the processes of rebuilding trust, and focusing on shared values and perspectives. Sitkin also touches on the role well-crafted control systems play in cultivating trust, drawing parallels from Ideo's approach, which harmonizes such systems with company ethos to reinforce trust. Furthermore, he provides insight into his forthcoming research, which seeks to consolidate the fields of trust and distrust into a unified theory. He emphasizes that competence alone is insufficient for trust to flourish, leaders must demonstrate benevolence and an understanding of their team's perspectives and values. He discusses the "tipping point" of trust, a critical juncture where accumulated missteps can erode trust beyond a simple fix, stressing the importance of early recognition and intervention to prevent distrust from becoming entrenched. Additionally, he touches on the impacts of immediate actions versus systemic changes on trust, the critical role of understanding in building trust, and the importance of relational leadership behaviors. Finally, we wrap up our conversation with a look towards the future. Sim Sitkin, alongside colleagues, is pioneering a general field theory to integrate research on distrust, trust, and generalized trust, aiming to illuminate the future landscape of trust in our rapidly evolving world.

Our guest today, Stephen M.R. Covey, emphasizes the profound importance of trust in leadership. He believes that trust, once broken, can only be rebuilt through consistent and genuine behavior rather than mere words. Covey passionately advocates for a leadership style of "trust and inspire" as opposed to the traditional "command and control." In this approach, leaders need to embody attributes like integrity, credibility, and transparency. They should be the first to demonstrate the values they wish to instill in their teams. Furthermore, Covey makes a distinction between leadership and management. While management often pertains to processes and objects, leadership is about guiding and inspiring people. He posits that individuals do not want to be merely managed; they wish to be led, trusted, and inspired. To this end, Covey introduces the idea that leadership is akin to stewardship, highlighting responsibility over rights. This perspective calls on leaders, especially those at the CEO level, to view their roles as stewards who model behavior, extend trust, and inspire those they lead. Concluding his insights, Covey commends the TrustTalk podcast for amplifying the essential conversation around trust, underscoring its pivotal role in today's world.

In episode 78 our guest, professor Nick Wheeler, discusses several crucial aspects of international relations and diplomacy. He explores the concept of "reassurance summits" and the role they play in diplomacy, where leaders attending diplomatic summits seek reassurance and test whether the other side perceives their defensive actions as stemming from fear and insecurity rather than hostile intent. He challenges the conventional wisdom that leaders should only engage in face-to-face diplomacy when their interests are already aligned. He introduces the idea of "security dilemma sensibility" in international relations, challenging the notion that uncertainty inevitably leads to competition and distrust. He emphasizes the need for leaders to understand the defensive motivations of others and break the cycle of misperceptions to promote cooperation and trust. Nick Wheeler delves into the possibility of developing social bonds and trust in the absence of face-to-face interaction. Drawing from Randall Collins' work, he suggests that weaker social bonds can indeed be formed without physical proximity, particularly through textually mediated interactions. He highlights the importance of shared security dilemma sensibility and shared mood in this context. He shares a cautionary tale from Dostoyevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov" to illustrate the limits of trust in transactional relationships. He argues that trust based solely on individual calculations of benefits and risks can quickly erode when the context changes. Shifting his focus to India-Pakistan relations, Wheeler examines the trust dynamics between leaders like Vajpayee and Sharif, emphasizing the importance of "trust, capacity, vulnerability" in assessing whether leaders can fulfill their promises and commitments. He also highlights the complexity of trust and opportunism in adversarial relationships. The discussion continues with an exploration of the role of interpersonal dyads in changing conflict situations. Wheeler underscores the significance of leaders being able to deliver on their commitments and the challenges of scaling up trust beyond individual relationships. He emphasizes the need to embed trust within decision-making processes and society itself to address future uncertainty. Finally he touches upon his upcoming book with Marcus Holmes, "Personal Chemistry: Social Bonds and International Conflict." The book aims to demystify the concept of personal chemistry in international relations by developing a theory that explains why leaders sometimes establish positive interpersonal relationships and sometimes do not. Through case studies, they aim to shed light on the factors influencing leaders' relationships and trust dynamics in diplomacy and conflict resolution.

Our guest today is Nicole Gillespie. She is the KPMG Chair in Organizational Trust and Professor of Management at the Australian University of Queensland Business School and an International Research Fellow at the Centre for Corporate Reputation at Oxford University. In the podcast interview, we cover various aspects of trust. She begins by addressing the challenge of translating theoretical trust research into practical solutions, noting that academia often values theoretical contributions over solving real-world issues. To bridge this gap, she advocates for interdisciplinary research that tackles critical trust problems and suggests collaboration with industries and non-governmental organizations. She also highlights the importance of practitioner-oriented journals to make research accessible. Nicole notes the emergence of a trend towards valuing research impact and relevance in academic work, particularly with interdisciplinary efforts addressing significant challenges. Vulnerability's role in trust is another key topic. Nicole emphasizes that trust involves a willingness to be vulnerable based on positive expectations. Trust is most pertinent in uncertain and risky situations. An interesting paradox arises where high-trust relationships create a subjective sense of security while making individuals objectively vulnerable. She highlights the importance of understanding vulnerability's bright side, including its role in fostering connections, innovation, and resilience. The interview further delves into the challenges of establishing trust across cultural boundaries. Gillespie co-authored a paper exploring trust dynamics between German supervisors and Chinese supervisees. The research highlighted the clash of cultural expectations, particularly regarding hierarchical relationships. Chinese employees often entered with high initial trust due to cultural expectations, while German supervisors focused more on task-oriented dynamics. The misalignment led to disillusionment and challenges in maintaining trust. Lastly, Gillespie touches on the significance of trustworthy AI. She was part of a paper outlining a model for ensuring trustworthy AI. While acknowledging the rapidly evolving landscape of AI, she explains the six dimensions of the model: organizational alignment, data integrity, system robustness, security, legal compliance, and ethics. Gillespie emphasizes the need for a comprehensive approach, integrating these dimensions to ensure responsible and trustworthy AI use. The interview concludes with a focus on the future of trust research. Gillespie highlights the evolving nature of technology, particularly AI, and its impact on trust relationships. She suggests exploring how emerging technologies affect trust dynamics, polarization, and societal relationships. As she commends the podcast host for his dedication to discussing trust-related topics, Gillespie underscores the importance of continuous research and dialogue in understanding and maintaining trust in an ever-changing world.

Our guest, Tom Tyler, a psychologist, and professor at Yale Law School, highlights the paradox in the legal academy, where much of the law is dependent on beliefs about psychology, yet it is seldom based on actual psychological research. Tom mentions the significance of trust in the legal system and its central role in discussions within law schools and the field of law. They emphasize that trust is a crucial component of legitimacy and that the ability of the legal system to function effectively relies on the trust the public places in legal institutions. He explains that historically, the legal system relied on a sanction-based model, threatening punishment to ensure compliance. However, behavioral science research has shown that building trust between the public and legal authorities is a more effective approach to gaining compliance and cooperation. Trust allows for a more cooperative relationship between the population and law enforcement, leading to an increased willingness to cooperate, provide information, and engage with the community, which aids in crime control. The concept of procedural fairness plays a significant role in building trust in legal authorities. People want to be treated with dignity, respect, and have decisions and policies explained to them. Research suggests that procedural fairness is more important in determining trust in authorities than the actual outcomes of their decisions. Additionally, trust is not solely about neutrality and rule-based procedures, but also encompasses relational aspects, such as sincerity, benevolence, and taking into account the needs of the people being dealt with. Tom argues that trust in legal authorities leads to not only compliance but also contributes to building the viability and strength of communities. A trust-based system promotes engagement, social connections, and active participation in community governance and activities. This, in turn, can reduce the need for constant surveillance and policing, making the community more self-regulating and self-sustaining. He notes that implementing procedural justice in policing and courts has shown positive outcomes in various communities. Improving the internal climate of law enforcement, as well as how officers are treated by their superiors, can positively impact how they treat the public, ultimately leading to enhanced procedural fairness and trust in the community. Furthermore, Tom argues that procedural justice is a widely accepted and agreed-upon concept across different ethnic, cultural, and economic groups. It is seen as a universal feature that fosters trust in legal authorities. While primarily studied in advanced industrialized societies, the principles of procedural justice have been found to hold true in various contexts.

Our guest today is Tom Van der Meer, a political science professor from the University of Amsterdam. He's an expert in political trust, social connections and voting patterns. Tom highlights the historical importance of political trust since post-World War II. He explains that the idea of a continuous decline in trust isn't entirely accurate. Trust levels vary across regions and times. He shares an interesting idea when people lose trust due to poor government performance, it might actually motivate them to get more involved in a democracy like voting and protesting. This can lead to positive change. Tom also explores what shapes political trust. He breaks down reasons like fair institutions, electoral systems, and education's impact. He discusses the link between corruption and trust, showing how corruption hurts trustworthiness and the importance of fairness in countering it. Tom talks about how politicians talk about trust and the connection between populism and political trust. He points out that the two aren't always directly linked, but trust affects how people vote and which parties they support. When asked about Francis Fukuyama's view on populist politicians and distrust in institutions, Tom partially agrees but adds nuance. He challenges the idea that populism always arises from declining trust, pointing out examples like modern populism emerging in high-trust countries. He also notes that the connection between rising populism and decreasing trust isn't always direct, as events and trust fluctuations don't consistently match Fukuyama's theory. Tom does share agreement with Fukuyama on the growing politicization of political trust. He observes that voters now choose parties based on trust levels a change from the past, where Trusters and Distrusters often voted for the same parties. Tom highlights the role of polarization and ideology in shaping party dynamics. He's concerned not just about overall trust levels, but also how trust is distributed across parties. He warns that parties dominated by distrusting individuals could lead to challenges like questioning election legitimacy, as seen in the United States.

Our next guest, Lee Rainee, director of the Pew Research Center’s Internet & Technology Research Group, delves into the subject of trust in the context of the Internet and institutions. He identifies two key aspects of online trust. Firstly, a decline in trust, particularly concerning major technology companies and institutions. People have become increasingly skeptical about the privacy and reliability of these entities. This decline is further exacerbated by the interplay between privacy concerns, trust issues, and confidence in institutions within the online space. However, despite the declining trust, he argues that people are unlikely to disengage from online activities. The internet has become deeply integrated into modern life, and essential tasks, such as banking and shopping, heavily rely on online tools. People have grown dependent on the convenience and efficiency offered by internet-based services, even if they express reservations about trusting the companies providing them. The conversation also explores several contributing factors to declining trust. Historical events, such as the Vietnam War, Watergate scandals, and economic recessions, have eroded trust in institutions over time. The internet has amplified these trends by providing access to information about institutional shortcomings, fuelling suspicions and concerns about trust. Political polarization is another influential factor. The rise of right-wing nationalist organizations, combined with politics becoming a divisive battleground, has led to heightened mistrust among citizens. Additionally, frustrations arise from the perception that governments are inept in addressing major societal challenges, such as climate change, misinformation, and the pandemic. Notably, trust is portrayed as a transactional calculation. Individuals weigh the potential benefits of an interaction against the compromises it might entail. Trust, in this context, becomes context-specific and contingent on various factors, reflecting a complex interplay of motivations and perceptions. Lee discusses the research methodology employed to study trust. Given the declining response rates to phone polls, online surveys have become more prevalent. Ensuring representative samples is crucial to obtain accurate insights into trust levels. However, some individuals distrust survey-givers, which may lead to incomplete data representation. He discusses the echo chamber argument, where people seek information that aligns with their views, but his data shows that highly motivated partisans from both the activist left and right actively engage with diverse information, including opposing views, to strengthen their arguments and understanding of the political landscape. Partisanship, civic engagement, and commitment to the political system play a significant role in determining the information people seek. The interview touches upon the role of academia and research in understanding trust. Different researchers focus on various aspects of trust, ranging from political culture and democratic institutions to corporations and macroeconomics. Understanding the complexities of trust in its various forms and contexts remains an ongoing area of exploration.

Our guest, Peter Dinesen, Professor of political science at UCL London and the University of Copenhagen talks about the consequences of immigration on generalized social trust. In his research, he explores if immigrants bring low levels of trust from their home countries or adapt to the trust levels in their new countries. And if natives respond to the increased presence of immigrants with lower levels of trust. Immigrants tend to catch up to the trust levels of natives in their new countries, while there is evidence of a weak negative effect of the presence of immigrants on trust levels among the native-born. However, Peter cautions against exaggerating the negative consequences, as other factors such as low corruption play a more significant role in trust. This is illustrated by trust increasing to record levels in Denmark since 1980 despite increasing immigration to the country.

Kevin Werbach, professor of Legal Studies and Business Ethics at the Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania, and formerly Counsel for New Technology Policy at the U.S. Federal Communications Commission, is a well-known expert on the business, legal, and social implications of emerging technologies. In this interview, we explore blockchain technology and its impact on traditional notions of trust. He delves into the different architectures of trust, including peer-to-peer trust, Leviathan trust, and intermediary trust, highlighting the limitations and risks associated with these traditional forms of trust, leading to the introduction of decentralized architecture offered by blockchain technology. The interview focuses on the application of blockchain in enhancing trust in specific contexts, using the example of Walmart implementing a blockchain-based solution to improve food safety within its global supply chain. The guest speaker emphasizes how blockchain can overcome trust barriers and inefficiencies, leading to enhanced trust and improved outcomes. The conversation also delves into the potential of blockchain technology to bring about freedom from corporate and government power, while acknowledging the risk of empowering criminals. Kevin highlights the importance of blockchain as a part of rebuilding trust in society, by providing transparent and decentralized systems for verifying information and maintaining integrity. He sets out the value of cryptocurrencies, bitcoin, with an emphasis on how blockchain technology provides trust through the integrity and transparency of the ledger. The interview concludes with a discussion on the viability of blockchain technology, the collapse of centralized platforms like FTX, and the comparison between the telecom industry and blockchain.

In this episode nr. 71, Eric Uslaner, in his latest book, “National Identity and Partisan Polarization” delves into the complex topic of trust and its implications for societies and politics. He highlights some key insights and concerns regarding trust, corruption, nationalism, and their interconnections. Throughout the interview, we explore the moral basis of trust, it lies in the belief that people of different backgrounds can trust each other based on shared interests, regardless of ethnic, religious, or ideological differences. This belief instils the notion of equality and is typically learned from parents at an early stage of life. Trusting individuals are more likely to engage in charitable giving, volunteerism, and compromise in both personal and political spheres. However, the current climate of political polarization runs counter to the concept of generalized trust. The level of trust in a society is strongly influenced by the degree of economic equality. Corruption tends to thrive in societies with low levels of trust and high levels of inequality. In highly corrupt environments, resources for public goods such as education and healthcare are diminished. Moreover, individuals in such societies often prioritize their own well-being and may support corrupt leaders from their own group. Punishing corrupt individuals alone is insufficient, as new corrupt actors will likely take their place. The guest emphasizes that reducing corruption requires widespread public education. The rise of nationalism globally signifies a decline or stagnation in trust. Nationalism reflects particularized trust, where individuals trust only those who are similar to them. It often entails perceiving those different from oneself as threats to the desired social order. Countering the rise of nationalism is challenging and requires long-term efforts, including education and generational change. Political trust presents a similar challenge, as opposing sides tend to view each other as enemies. Our guest expresses concerns about the growing nationalism trend worldwide. Notably, Sweden, a country known for its tolerance, experienced the rise of nationalist parties advocating for stricter immigration policies and emphasizing divisions between natives and foreigners. The United States has also seen immigration become a major political concern. Troublingly, in some cases, immigration opposition gained more support for certain political parties than they lost on other issues such as abortion. The rise of nationalism presents complex challenges without immediate solutions. Throughout our conversation, we explore the multifaceted nature of trust, its relationship with corruption and nationalism, and the difficulties associated with addressing these issues. The guest's insights shed light on the dynamics shaping trust in societies today.