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The Dairy Download

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A podcast series presented by the International Dairy Foods Association and Blimling and Associates. The Dairy Download is a 25-minute podcast hosted by Phil Plourd and Kathleen Noble Wolfley of Blimling and Associates that covers dairy market news and offers fresh guest commentary on the consumer and policy trends shaping dairy. Breezy and informative, The Dairy Download takes listeners through a top-line report on the CME dairy markets, and then dives into the headlines and trends shaping dairy production, consumption and marketing with industry experts, market analysts, and leaders from across food and beverage. The Dairy Download is available wherever you get your podcasts, as well as for direct download from https://www.idfa.org/thedairydownload.
24 Episodes
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A lack of workers. An increase in COVID cases. An aging labor force. They’re all issues facing US employers as they struggle to fill jobs today and prepare for the labor pool of tomorrow. In the latest episode of The Dairy Download, we talk with two guests about efforts to overcome workforce woes.First up is Carolyn Lee, Executive Director of The Manufacturing Institute. Her role includes preparing the workforce for an ever-evolving manufacturing industry. She discusses efforts to recruit more women, veterans and youth, and why manufacturing is a desirable career.Next, we speak with Dante DeAntonio, Senior Economist with Moody’s Analytics. He dives into recent job reports and what’s kept employees out of the workforce. Will those obstacles clear up anytime soon? DeAntonio weighs in.If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
No matter where they eat, Americans love dairy. That’s good news as processors ramp up capacity, bringing additional cheese, butter and milk products to dining rooms and kitchen tables across the country. In the latest episode of The Dairy Download, we talk with two leaders helping satisfy healthy appetites for dairy products.First up is Tim Gomez, who was among the founders of Kansas Dairy Ingredients and is CEO of KDI Cheese Company. He discusses how the company’s plant expansion in Hugoton, Kansas, will fill an increase in demand for dairy products – including European-style butter. What’s so great about butter that’s 85% fat? Gomez fills us in.Joining us next is George Chappell, Vice President of Dairy Operations at Glanbia Nutritionals. Last year, the company opened its latest venture, WMC, which is now processing about 8 million pounds of milk per day. Chappell talks about the process of creating fresh and delicious cheese at the innovative new plant.Today's episode is sponsored by Spartan Parts. "Spartan Parts also offers a small filler, low to medium speeds requirements. Learn more about the six valve, three head capper gravity filling at spartanparts.com/dairydownload"If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org. Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
What do the Black Hills, Mount Rushmore and more than 150,000 cows have in common? They all call South Dakota home. On the latest episode The Dairy Download, we talk to two guests encouraging growth in the state’s dairy industry.Joining us first is Paul Kosboth, Owner and Manager of A1 Development Solutions. Prior to founding the agricultural development company, Kosboth served as South Dakota’s Director of Ag Development. He joins the show to discuss changes and expansion in the state’s dairy herd, and what makes South Dakota an idea place for milk producers and processors.Next up is Jason Mischel, Vice President of Sales and Milk Procurement for Valley Queen Cheese Company. Founded more than 90 years ago, Valley Queen now uses more than 1.8 billion pounds of milk to produce over 200 million pounds of cheese each year. Mischel discusses the company’s growth and how Valley Queen is attracting producers from across the globe to South Dakota.You can find The Dairy Download for free wherever you stream podcasts and at www.idfa.org/thedairydownload. Or take the hassle out of download times and subscribe! If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org. Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Grab your passport, we’re going globetrotting. How are logistics issues impacting international dairy trade? What does the dairy farming landscape look like in other parts of the world? And why do consumers love butter from Ireland? We find out in the latest jet-setting episode of The Dairy Download.Our first stop is Switzerland, where we check in with Patricia Stroup, Global Senior Vice President and Chief Procurement Officer with Nestle. From commodity shortages to efforts around sustainability, she talks about challenges facing the company – and how she’s helping find solutions. She also discusses dairy’s role in the success of the world’s largest food and beverage business.Next, we take a trip to Ireland to talk with Colin Kelly, Managing Director of Trading and Member Relations at Ornua. He discusses the cooperative’s evolution as Ireland’s largest dairy exporter. He also sheds light on how Ornua is overcoming obstacles like Brexit and a worldwide container shortage.If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Americans sure love dairy, and consumers across the world are demanding more high-quality American dairy products than ever before. As milk production increases in the U.S., so too do herd sizes, while the total number of dairy farms continues to decline. What does sustainable growth look like from the farmer’s point of view? This week on “The Dairy Download,” we dive into the opportunities and challenges presented by growth, innovation, and consumer preferences in today’s dairy industry. Our first guest is Mike McCloskey, Co-Founder and CEO of Select Milk Producers. Mike gives us his thoughts on competition between farms, the success of fairlife, and the need for professional people in the dairy business. He also lays out his thoughts on why dairy farms need to needs to be cow-centric, ecosystem-centric, and community-centric to survive and thrive in the future. Next up is Catherine de Ronde, Vice President of Economics and Legislative Affairs at Agri-Mark, Inc. She discusses the farmer-owned cooperative’s opportunities for growth, capitalizing on B-corp certification, and the need to focus on sustainable operations irrespective of their size.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.
Trade Talk

Trade Talk

2021-06-0334:41

U.S. dairy exports hit an all-time high in 2020, reaching 2.4 million metric tons. With those numbers in mind, it’s no wonder issues like Trade Promotion Authority are a priority for the dairy and agriculture industries. In the latest episode of “The Dairy Download,” we hear from two advocates looking to pave the way for future trade flows.Joining us first is Gregg Doud, a former Chief Agricultural Negotiator under the U.S. Trade Representative. He talks about his work negotiating trade accords like the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement. And Doud discusses what it’s like to be in the room where trade deals happen.Next is U.S. Representative Mike Simpson, who represents Idaho’s Second Congressional District. He discusses how dairy overtook potatoes to become the state’s top cash crop. And he tells listeners why “trade is vitally important to the agricultural industry.”Today's episode is sponsored by Spartan Parts. "From custom parts, to upgrades and equipment audits, Spartan Parts does it best. Check out spartanparts.com/dairydownload to learn how you can overcome filling obstacles to help improve your filling speeds."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.
Temperatures are warming up. Time for flip flops, swimming pools and your favorite frozen treat. In the latest episode of The Dairy Download, we talk about the pints, gallons and other novelties sure to be popular this summer.Visiting us first is Denise Leathers, editor at Frozen and Refrigerated Food Buyer magazine. She discusses the trends and changes she’s seen in ice cream consumption over her 25 years covering the food industry. And she gives us the scoop on plant-based treats.Joining next is Mike Wells, CEO of Wells Enterprises. The company’s Blue Bunny brand has become a staple in freezers across the country and a favorite during the pandemic. Will those trends continue? Wells dishes on the future of ice cream.You can find The Dairy Download for free wherever you stream podcasts and at www.idfa.org/thedairydownload. Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, 'We Know Dairy.' With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Cheesehead Dreaming

Cheesehead Dreaming

2021-05-0628:59

As the world’s cheese capital, Wisconsin is home to more than 600 varieties of wheels, sticks, slices, shreds and, of course, curds. Joining the latest episode of The Dairy Download are two guests putting the state’s offerings in coolers across the globe.First up is Kristine Hansen, author of the Wisconsin Cheese Cookbook. Who are the producers and processors behind Wisconsin dairy? What’s a pizza farm? And how do you make apple pie with a cheddar crust? She dishes the details.Next is Jen Walsh, chief operating officer with Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin. From canned cheese to specialty ice cream, she discusses dairy demand and her work keeping the state’s products at the forefront. She also talks about the importance and quality behind that “Proudly Wisconsin” label.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, 'We Know Dairy.' With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Booming exports and dwindling stocks. Rising inflation and increased ethanol use. In the latest episode of The Dairy Download, we talk with two guests who are close to increasingly expensive and volatile grain markets.First up is Steve Freed, Vice President of Grain Research for ADM Investor Services. He talks about global demand for corn, soybeans and other grains, and China’s hunger for US product. He also discusses how factors like inflation and weather are helping push prices to multi-year highs.Joining us next is Robert White, Vice President of Industry Relations with the Renewable Fuels Association. Where are we in ethanol’s lifecycle? White gives us his perspective. And he weighs in on the relationship between renewable fuel and corn prices.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, “We Know Dairy.” With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org. Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Innovation Insiders

Innovation Insiders

2021-04-0829:03

From sit-down meals to snacks on-the-go, food manufacturers are working to keep ahead of new and tasty trends. In the latest episode of The Dairy Download, we talk to two executives bringing “disruptive innovation” to consumer palates.First up is Howard Friedman, CEO of Post Consumer Brands. He discusses the age-old question: How do companies preserve legacy brands while staying on top of ever-evolving preferences? He also tells us why it’s been hard to find Grape Nuts and how to enjoy a bowl of Fruity Pebbles without a spoon.Next is Luis Martinez, Vice President of Research and Innovation with Darifair. He gives a look into the  development of inventive dairy products and flavors. And he sheds light on how the company is working with restaurants to meet a growing demand for portable, delivery-friendly dishes.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, 'We Know Dairy.' With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Sustainably Speaking

Sustainably Speaking

2021-03-2529:52

To feed a growing world, some say farmers will have to produce 70% more food over the next 30 years. Doing so in a sustainable fashion is a top priority for the guests on the latest episode of The Dairy Download.Joining us first is Dr. Sara Place, Chief Sustainability Officer for Elanco. She helps define buzzwords like “net-zero” and discusses what they mean for producers and consumers. She also gives a look into Elanco’s global sustainability efforts.Next up is Scott Faber, a spokesman and activist with the Environmental Working Group. He offers a look into the group’s priorities for U.S. food and farm policy, including a strong focus on environmental and hunger issues. He also discusses how those policies can be implemented on the farm level.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, “We Know Dairy.” With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.
The Dairy Download invites listeners to celebrate Women’s History Month with an episode featuring three female founders making inroads in the dairy industry.Joining us first is Julia Joseph, founding partner at Maple Hill Creamery. She helped rebuild the business from the brink of foreclosure and into an organic business working with more than 150 farms. Today, she’s focused on getting Maple Hill’s grass-fed products on more shelves near you.Next up is Anna Landmark and Anna Thomas Bates, co-founders of Landmark Creamery. Anna Landmark tells us how she went from making sheep’s cheese in her kitchen to creating and selling products across the country. And Anna Thomas Bates discusses the company’s retail presence and partnership with other dairy processors.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, “We Know Dairy.” With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Click, pay, collect. From gaming consoles to groceries, it’s never been easier to buy online for home delivery. But who’s getting those goodies from stores and warehouses to your doorstep? The latest episode of “The Dairy Download” explores the (often bumpy) pathways that connect products and consumers across the world.We first get a global perspective from DairyAmerica CEO Patti Smith, who offers a look at the way logistics are impacting her business. As head of the world’s largest milk powder marketer, Smith talks about how her company is coping with supply chain challenges and what’s next for US dairy exports.Bob Costello, chief economist and senior vice president with American Trucking Associations, also joins the podcast to discuss how the trucking industry fits into the picture. From a crush of retail sales to declining energy exploration, Costello gives a look through the windshield at how the pandemic and other forces are changing the way haulers do business.Today's episode is sponsored by RSM. "At RSM, “We Know Dairy.” With industry recognized and award winning Microsoft solutions from Dynamics 365, Office, Teams, Power BI and more, RSM is your stop for a Dairy focused technology solutions provider. Learn more at digital.rsmus.com."If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org. Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
From recyclable packaging to waste-free manufacturing, businesses are taking new approaches to sustainability. In the latest episode of “The Dairy Download,” we go green with two guests bringing environmentally friendly practices to the dairy industry.First up is Paul Snyder, who says sustainability is bringing a “wave of innovation” to the way we consume dairy. As executive vice president of stewardship for Tillamook County Creamery Association, he’s helping implement greener practices at the newly Certified B Corporation, a designation given to organizations that have achieved outstanding social and environmental standards.  Next up is Boris Munster, Tetra Pak’s key account director of contract manufacturing for the U.S. and Canada. Munster discusses the company’s evolution from manufacturing milk cartons to providing processing and packaging for a variety of dairy products. And he talks about Tetra Pak’s efforts to reduce its environmental footprint, from reducing plastic to using renewable materials.Today's episode is sponsored by the Kansas Dept. of Agriculture. Ready to expand your dairy processing into the premier dairy frontier? There is room to grow in Kansas, the center of it all. Learn more at dairyinkansas.com.If your company is interested in sponsoring a block of episodes of The Dairy Download, contact IDFA’s Melissa Lembke at mlembke@idfa.org.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Where did that gallon of milk come from? And why are there so many ice cream flavors? In the season two premiere of “The Dairy Download,” we hear from two writers working to connect American consumers with the stories behind their favorite dairy products.First up is Donna Berry, whose “Berry on Dairy” blog has become a staple for those keeping a pulse on breakthroughs in dairy innovation. Berry discusses topics ranging from packaging trends to regenerative agriculture. And she gives her opinion on why “fat-free” and “cheese” don’t belong in the same sentence.Next is speaker, advocate and blogger Carrie Mess. Better known as “Dairy Carrie,” she offers a farmer’s perspective from a 100-cow operation in Lake Mills, Wisconsin. From diversity to social media’s role in agriculture, Mess discusses the changing dairy landscape. She also talks about her own shift from a “city girl” to a “dairy famous” farm life.You can find “The Dairy Download” for free wherever you stream podcasts and at www.idfa.org/thedairydownload. Or take the hassle out of download times and subscribe below.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
As we learned in school, cells are the building blocks of all living things. Now, innovators are taking it a step further, using cells as the foundation of your next meal. In a special year-end episode of “The Dairy Download,” co-hosts Phil Plourd and Kathleen Wolfley talk to two guests who are changing the way we look at food. First up is Ryan Pandya, co-founder and CEO of Perfect Day. Six years ago, he combined a love of dairy and a vegan lifestyle into a company that uses cellular fermentation to create dairy proteins. Today, Pandya is partnering with dairy companies to bring Perfect Day’s dairy ingredients like cheese, yogurt and ice cream to your favorite menu or local grocery aisle.Next, journalist Chase Purdy delves into the world of cellular agriculture. The author of “Billion Dollar Burger: Inside Big Tech’s Race for the Future of Food” tells us about the developers and investors behind that eye-popping dollar figure. And we get a look into the future of cell-based protein. Still thinking about a thick beef patty with a slice of cheese? Purdy discusses potential alignment between lab-grown meat and the dairy industry.But, before we explore potential disruption ahead, our hosts take a look back on 2020. After a year that was anything but ordinary, we share what you need to know heading into 2021.You can find The Dairy Download for free wherever you stream podcasts and at www.idfa.org/thedairydownload. Or take the hassle out of download times and subscribe below.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.Today's episode is sponsored by TC Transcontinental Packaging. With over 60 years of experience supplying Cheese and Dairy, TC Transcontinental Packaging is your solution for dairy flexible packaging. Check them out at tctranscontinental.com/packaging for more information.
In Love With Butter

In Love With Butter

2020-12-1024:151

In the film “Julie & Julia,” author and blogger Julie Powell writes, “The day there's a meteorite heading toward the earth and we have 30 days to live, I am going to spend it eating butter.”And judging by recent retail and consumption trends, Americans tend to agree. After all, is there a better way to relieve pandemic fatigue than with cakes, cookies and other butter-filled goodies?In the latest mouthwatering episode of The Dairy Download, co-hosts Phil Plourd and Kathleen Wolfley delve into our love affair with butter with Mike Brown, director of supply chain at The Kroger Co., and Jessica Tomlinson, corporate executive chief of research and development for Flemings Prime Steakhouse & Wine Bar. Have you baked more cookies over the past few months? Brown discusses how the shift to eating at home is impacting butter sales in grocery stores. Have you ordered something new for delivery at your favorite restaurant? Tomlinson gives an inside look into how butter plays into menu development and innovation. You can find The Dairy Download for free wherever you stream podcasts and at www.idfa.org/thedairydownload. Or take the hassle out of download times and subscribe below.Questions or comments about the show? We want to hear from you. Send a note to dairydownload@idfa.org and your feedback could be included on a future episode.
Trade Deep Dive

Trade Deep Dive

2020-11-2525:31

Episode 6 of The Dairy Download looks at the changing landscape for exports and trade in food and agriculture. Trade policy has been a hot topic for the past four years, and the COVID-19 pandemic has only added intrigue. Now, we will likely see another major shift as a new Administration moves into the White House. History suggests that a Biden Administration is likely to take a less combative approach to trade, seeking to engage with trading partners through multilateral relationships and agreements. But the outlook remains cloudy given lingering unease about current policy and an ongoing global recession. Luckily, hosts Phil Plourd and Kathleen Wolfley talk with two of the brightest minds in trade who provide clarity and a path forward. In the guest chair for Episode 6 is Brooke Markley, senior manager of trade compliance and policy for Leprino Food Company, the world’s largest maker of mozzarella cheese. Brooke has been with Leprino since 2014 in various roles. Previously, she served as an economist and agricultural attaché with USDA’s Foreign Agricultural Service, where she served in Argentina, among other posts.Next up is Ambassador Darci Vetter, former chief agricultural negotiator in the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative from 2014 to 2017, as well as former deputy under secretary for Farm and Foreign Agricultural Services under President Obama. Today, Darci is the global lead of public affairs and vice chair of agriculture and food at Edelman.Today's episode is sponsored by Global Dairy Trade. Covid-19’s unprecedented trade disruption has highlighted the essential role Global Dairy Trade plays in providing price transparency for the export of core dairy ingredients. Learn more at www.globaldairytrade.info
Let's Go Shopping!

Let's Go Shopping!

2020-11-1224:24

Let’s Go Shopping is not only the title of Episode 5 of The Dairy Download—it’s also a call to action as the nation prepares for the holiday retail rush. How is the pandemic changing America’s shopping for holiday meals? And will growing caseloads stifle the Black Friday tradition this year, or accelerate online shopping habits to break records? Hosts Phil Plourd and Kathleen Wolfley break it all down in their review of retail trends with some of the industry’s best and brightest leaders. But first, Phil and Kathleen discuss how resurgence of coronavirus is impacting foodservice and other discretionary spending in Q4. Meanwhile, a potential vaccine breakthrough could reset 2021. In the guest chair for Episode 5 is Marshal Cohen, chief industry advisor for The NPD Group. Marshal is a nationally known expert on consumer behavior and the retail industry. He has followed retail trends for more than thirty years, at NPD and as the head of leading fashion and apparel manufacturers as well as major retailers. If you’re looking for shopping tips, you’ve come to the right place. Next up is Greg Ferrara, president and CEO of the National Grocers Association just outside the nation’s capital. Greg grew up in the independent grocery business, managing his family’s store in New Orleans before making the jump to NGA, a voice for the independent sector of the supermarket industry. Greg tackles how independents are learning to outcompete the bigger guys in this new environment.
The Rural-Urban Divide

The Rural-Urban Divide

2020-10-2927:421

Episode 4 of The Dairy Download explores our nation’s rural and urban divide. Is that a real thing? And, if it is, how are leaders in agriculture and rural America working to close the gap? Hosts Phil Plourd and Kathleen Wolfley jump into the dairy markets and explore how home sales are buoying the economy, before talking with two guests who have made it their lives’ work to represent the interests of rural Americans. Their first guest is Dee Davis, founder and president of the Center for Rural Strategies and Chair of the Rural Assembly Steering Committee. He has a long career in arts, culture, journalism and community organizing in Kentucky. Dee hails from the coal fields of Appalachia and believes rural and urban Americans are not so different in their basic needs and outlook. Next, Phil and Kathleen speak with Congressman Collin Peterson, a long-serving Democrat from Minnesota’s 7th Congressional district. He is Chairman of the House Committee on Agriculture and currently finds himself in the middle of a tough Congressional race. Chairman Peterson would like to see more Democrats devoted to rural and agricultural issues. He says, “We hardly have anyone left like me in a farm or rural district that is a Democrat. And that’s a problem, because you can’t get anything done in [Congress] that’s going to have any longevity or that is going to stick unless you have both parties doing it.”
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