The Persuasion Occasion

John Lowry—expert negotiator and author of Negotiation Made Simple—joins us to break down the real dynamics of deal-making. Drawing from years as a litigator and founder of The Lowry Group, a negotiation collective, John explains why successful negotiation isn’t just about facts or law—it’s about people.We explore the mindset needed to negotiate effectively, how to manage emotion and ego on both sides of the table, and why influence often matters more than information. John also shares why most professionals are negotiating far more often than they realize—yet rarely receive formal training.From anchoring strategies to when to walk away from the table, John offers practical advice grounded in real-world experience. Whether you’re managing a legal case or just trying to get a deal done, this conversation reframes negotiation as a fundamentally human process.

Dr. George Bonanno, professor of psychology at Columbia University and head of the Loss, Trauma, and Emotion Lab, joins us to challenge everything you think you know about trauma and resilience.George shares how his unconventional path—from a troubled youth to working with mentally ill adults—led him to Yale and into a career studying how people respond to loss and extreme stress.His research shows that most people are more resilient than commonly believed, bouncing back from hardship without developing long-term trauma.In this conversation, we dig into why PTSD is often misunderstood, how flexibility (not stoicism) is the real marker of resilience, and why popular traits like “grit” or “toughness” don’t always predict who copes well.George also discusses effective PTSD treatments—from exposure therapy to psychedelics—and how laughter, reappraisal, and even “coping ugly” can be surprisingly powerful tools in recovery.Whether you’re dealing with loss, supporting someone through a tough time, or just trying to understand what real resilience looks like, this episode brings deep insight backed by decades of research.

Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over two decades of service, joins us to unpack what undercover operations and hostage negotiations can teach us about persuasion, human behavior, and trust-building—both in crisis and in daily life.Melissa shares how her background in psychology and counseling shaped her FBI career, taking her from a rape crisis center to undercover roles and high-stakes international negotiations. Walking us through jaw-dropping undercover assignments and negotiations, she describes posing as a bride-to-be in a fake wedding used to arrest international arms dealers and negotiating with the Taliban where the first offer (not hers) was “$30,000 and a goat.” Melissa explains why likability and emotional control are critical assets in any negotiation. She also discusses the differences and overlaps between the FBI and Harvard negotiation frameworks, and why understanding your own emotional triggers is the first step toward influencing others. She reflects on the power of empathy and connection in building rapport, whether it’s with organized crime figures or colleagues on a SWAT team.Whether you’re navigating tough business conversations, managing conflict at work, or just trying to get your teenager to do their homework, Melissa’s insights are sharp, surprising, and grounded in real-world experience.

Scott Tillema, co-founder of The Negotiations Collective and veteran hostage negotiator, joins us to share what crisis negotiations can teach us about influence, emotional control, and communication under pressure.He explains how a curiosity about human behavior led him into law enforcement and how he ultimately trained to handle life-or-death situations on a SWAT team. Scott reveals how empathy, timing, and strong listening skills help de-escalate tense encounters—and why those same skills are essential in business and everyday life.Scott also shares his four-part communication framework featured in his viral TEDx talk and walks us through how he applies negotiation strategies in both high-stakes scenarios and corporate boardrooms. Whether you’re a lawyer, a leader, or just someone navigating tough conversations, Scott’s practical tools can help you become more persuasive and grounded.

In this episode, Joe Navarro, former FBI special agent and expert in nonverbal communication, shares insights from his unique background. He discusses how his early life in Cuba shaped his understanding of body language and the transition from intuitive observations to structured analysis. Navarro explores the critical role of body language in interviews, negotiations, and daily interactions, offering practical advice to enhance persuasive communication. He delves into cultural sensitivities, individual differences, and the psychology of first impressions and empathy, drawing from his experiences with high-stakes negotiations. Joe also examines the limitations of virtual communication, contrasting it with the evolutionary advantages of face-to-face interactions.

In this conversation, Jeremy Hurewitz shares his unique journey from journalism to corporate security and describes how his experiences have shaped his understanding of persuasion and influence. He discusses his regular work with lawyers and law firms, explores the importance of active listening, radical empathy, and elicitation in sales, and introduces his “Crawl, Walk, Run” strategy for building client relationships.Jeremy emphasizes that both introverts and extroverts can excel in making connections. He tells us how personal passions can enhance connections and delves into behavioral science’s role in sales and negotiation, offering strategies for de-escalating emotionally charged situations. Our discussion also touches on negotiation tactics in global conflicts, emphasizing the need for emotional intelligence and relationship building in professional settings.

Our guest this week, John Blumberg, author of Persuasion Science for Trial Lawyers, describes how he incorporates developments in psychology, behavioral economics and decision making science into trial presentations.  He describes why information is accepted or rejected by jurors and how decisions by juries can be affected by cognitive overload, mental shortcuts, and biases. He emphasizes the importance of presenting information simply and empowering juries to make their own decisions in an advocates framework, rather avoiding telling jurors what to think in court. John also discusses the concept of false memories and the impact of preconceived beliefs on jury decisions and shares the top three tactics lawyers can use to be more persuasive.

Prof. John Dowling joins us on The Persuasion Occasion to discuss the science of memory and learning. We explore the mechanisms of neurotransmission and modulation in the brain and how long-term memories are formed through biochemical changes in the brain. John dives into the creative and reconstructive nature of memory, the role of attention and emotions in perception and memory, and the creative limitations of AI.

This week we are joined by the nation’s most influential trial consultant, David Ball, to discuss the reptilian brain’s influence on legal decision-making. David shares his insights on understanding juror perspectives, addressing jurors’ potential biases, and comprehending why social media has been a game changer for trial lawyers. We also discuss the importance of clearly defining legal terms, framing narratives that resonate with jurors, and addressing bogus science in courtrooms.

Pat Pattison, a professor at Berklee College of Music, joins us this week to discuss the transformative impact of music and share insights on writing song lyrics, including structure, emotional tone, and intentionality. We discuss the significance of metaphor and authenticity in creating a cohesive and effective song. Pat also shares stories about his life in music, including jamming with the Doobie Brothers and Beach Boys, and discusses various songwriting techniques and trends, including Taylor Swift’s fast writing style.

In part two with Jason Blume, we delve into the elements of a successful and persuasive song. Jason shares invaluable insights and practical advice that can translate from songwriting to any arena. Jason emphasizes that while good songs are plentiful, what sets successful ones apart is their unique angle and fresh approach. He also touches on the importance of song structure, explaining that most hit songs follow a few familiar structures as do persuasive arguments, necessary for effectively communicating a message to listeners.

Songwriter and instructor Jason Blume joins us to share his struggles and successes in negotiation within the music industry. He emphasizes the importance of persistence, networking, and collaboration. In discussing songwriting’s interplay between creativity and business, he highlights the need for songwriters to understand both aspects of the industry. We also dig into the key elements of persuasive songwriting, including melody, repetition, and relatable lyrics.

On this show, Dan Ariely, Duke University professor and noted author, discusses behavioral psychology and persuasion, the dangers of misbelief, and the growing phenomenon of identity polarization in the digital age. Dan shares how misbelief can lead to a distorted view of reality, where everything is seen through the lens of a particular belief or perspective. We also dive into the significance of clear and concise communication in legal settings and the importance of navigating difficult conversations with empathy and respect. Dan is the James B. Duke Professor of Psychology & Behavioral Economics at Duke University and founded the Center for Advanced Hindsight. Dan also co-created the film documentary (Dis)Honesty: The Truth About Lies and wrote three-time New York Times bestsellers: Predictably Irrational, The Upside of Irrationality, and The Honest Truth About Dishonesty. His latest book, Misbelief: What Makes Rational People Believe Irrational Things, discusses the distorted lens through which people begin to view the world, reason about the world, and then describe the world to others.  “When we are stressed, we need  a story with a villain - and that story gives us a sense of control.” - Dan Ariely This week on The Persuasion Ocassion: How misinformation spreads and affects trust in societyWhy misbelief can lead to a distorted view of reality, where everything is seen through the lens of a particular belief or perspectiveDan explains how stress can lead to misbeliefs and a desire for controlWhy we have low resilience due to decreased time with friends and workplace social isolationWhat  the "funnel of misbelief" is and how it affects our psychologyHow social media can both facilitate and exacerbate the polarization of beliefsWhy it’s so important to address misinformation and polarization and the potential consequences for democracy and society if we don’tWhy the legal system needs to catch up with new forms of communication and deterrent mechanisms in the digital ageDan shares his story of growing half a beard after being injured 70% of his body and why it inspired him  to explore behavioral economicsThe illusion of explanatory depth, where people often overestimate their knowledgeWhy we should seek out diverse perspectives and engage in constructive dialogue with people from different backgrounds and beliefsConnect with Dan Ariely:Dan ArielyConnect with David and Jasmine:David T. Biderman at Perkins Coie Jasmine Wetherell at Perkins Coie 

This week on The Persuasion Occasion, we welcome noted First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams as he recounts his representation of the New York Times in the historic legal battle over the publication of the Pentagon Papers. This 1971 case led to a groundbreaking U.S. Supreme Court ruling affecting freedom of the press. Floyd’s captivating storytelling and description reveals how this fight about fundamental constitutional issues unfolded in a charged political environment.

Join us for an engaging session with Kasia Jagodzinska, author of the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. We discuss the negotiation process, how Kasia’s multicultural training served her in international negations at the United Nations, and the influence of psychology on negotiations. Kasia considers various negotiation strategies, including the Harvard Win/Win teaching and the FBI’s strategies for crisis negotiations, and observations on new technology.As an associate professor in negotiations at the University of Neuchatel, and senior trainer at the Schranner Negotiation Institute, Kasia is recognized as a national expert to the European Parliament on cross-border mediations and served as a senior advisor to the United Nations in Geneva. She is the author of several books on self-empowerment in high-stakes negotiations, including Negotiation Booster.

Doug Wilson, and DWC President Michele Vives discuss the growth and downturns of mixed-use development. Michele shares her perspective on the dramatic loss in value of downtown real estate and the interconnectedness of commercial real estate and such community issues as homelessness, and our need to address these challenges. Doug, a 40-year veteran of real estate cycles, describes why he is optimistic about downtown urban development and investing in San Francisco properties when others are closing their doors.

Johnny Dzubak and AJ Harbinger, creators of The Art of Charm podcast, share how their podcast—and their subsequent training services—help people open up lines of communication and influence. They explain how positive feedback loops and other trained behaviours can make you more persuasive and discuss the skills that can help build trust and relationships. Johnny and AJ also describe how their work with Special Forces allowed them to communicate with other cultures to build valuable rapport.

We’re excited to talk with Carlos Alvarenga, author of The Rules of Persuasion, How the World’s Greatest Communicators Convince, Inspire, Lead—and, Sometimes, Deceive. Carlos reveals how he translated Aristotle's principles of persuasion to modern media (e.g., movies and rap music) to make his advice more accessible. He also explores his definition of persuasion, how Donald Trump's presidential campaign created a powerful loyalty from his audience, and the concept of chemistry in communication.

David and Jasmine talk with Markus Funk about the investigation and trial of the powerful Chicago-based Calabrese family mob, who engineered years of extortion, gambling, bookmaking, and hundreds of murders. Their gangland execution of two mobsters in an Indiana cornfield was reenacted in Martin Scorsese’s Casino, giving viewers a glimpse of the chilling nature of organized crime activities. Marcus describes the trial of the nation’s most extensive mob murder case, how they flipped mob leader Frank Calabrese’s son, and how Markus’ closing argument prompted Frank Sr. to refer to him as “a dead man.” He shares fascinating details of his life as an assistant United States attorney (AUSA), how to be persuasive at trial, and how his experience has taught him the importance of being authentic, no matter your role.

This week on The Persuasion Occasion, we are joined by Shane Read, one of the leading (and best) authors and commentators on courtroom and boardroom advocacy. Shane’s compelling, award-winning books have been praised by the best trial lawyers in the world. Focusing on the importance of storytelling, Shane helps readers simplify complex ideas and understand the psychology of persuasion. His insights are essential for anyone looking to improve their persuasive skills, whether in the courtroom or beyond.