Following the Fire

Steve talks to Josh Kaiser, former pastor turned deconstruction coach, about the different places people tend to end up at the end of their deconstruction / faith journeys (if there even is an end). Josh has a lot of wisdom and insight to this whole crazy process, so be sure to give this one your time. Josh Kaiser’s TikTok: @theLocalHeretic Origen Jerome Justin Matyr Augustine Mark Driscoll Vivant Life Coaching Brewery Vivant Christian Mysticism Josh’s video about mysticism John Philip Newell Cognitive Dissonance Pete Enns The Bible for Normal People Richard Rohr Film: “Ghandi” Hymn: “O Sacred Head” Vertical vs. Horizontal Morality Annihilationism Podcast: The Local Heretic Live Thomas Merton Book: “The Naked Now” by Richard Rohr Book: “The Universal Christ” Book:“Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps” Books by John Philip Newell All of our music is by Daniel Wheat: Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guest: Josh Kaiser.Support Following the Fire

We read “The Watchman Decree” (and even hear a disturbing recitation of it) and discuss the implications of Christian Nationalism in America. What do we do about it? Can we do anything? Is maybe just a little bit okay? (Spoiler: No. No, it’s not) Following the Fire Facebook Group Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ Free Dad Hugs shirt Free Mom Hugs (official) Christian Nationalism Theocracy Sharia Law Book: “The Founding Myth” by Andrew Seidel The Watchman Decree Article: “The ‘Watchman Decree’ is a scary vision of Christian nationalism in action” The Moral Majority Samuel Perry Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” By Brian McLaren Parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13 Theme music by Daniel Wheat! Find his music and merch at his Bandcamp And follow his Instagram Support Following the Fire

The things we lift up and admire say a lot about us. Why, then, do so many evangelical Christians in America lift up the worst of us like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and others. Has Christianity always been like this? Is there any way to redeem it? Halloween was weirdly warm Nathan can only handle “evangelical scary” Steve has numbed himself to everything “scary” Series: “Midnight Mass” Film Genre: Elevated Horror Film: “Midsommar” Director: Martin McDonnaugh Film: “In Bruges Purgatory Bruges, Belgium www.letterboxd.com 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon Film: “Amelie” Film: “Rubber” Film: “The Social Dilemma” Elon Musk buys Twitter Tesla SpaceX Ford valuation Tesla valuation Attention Economy Lauren Boebert Mark Driscoll Colt McCoy Series: “Knight Rider” Film: “Doc Hollywood” Film: “Cars” Weird Al Yankovic Documentary: “God Forbid” about Jerry Falwell, Jr. The Power Team Height of CEO’s in America Psychology Today Cracker Barrel Book: “The Divine Conspiracy” by Dallas Willard The Beatitudes Constantine IXTHYS fish symbol Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” By Dan McLaren Jairus’ Daughter Jesus healing the bleeding woman Theme music by Daniel Wheat! Find his music and merch at his Bandcamp And follow his Instagram Support Following the Fire

Embracing the F-Word: What is Feminism and how it can help us all be fully human Special guest Alison Buxton joins us again to discuss that OTHER dirty f-word: Feminism. She tells us what it is, what it isn’t, and why it matters. The 2 dudes on this podcast learned a LOT from Alison, including how feminism is connected to everything in ways we didn’t expect. Friends don't have to use shortened names Ms. Book Club Episode: “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” by Beth Allison Barr Rush Limbaugh “Feminazi” Book: “The Poisonwood Bible” by Barbara Kingsolver Jane Fonda Vietnam War protests bell hooks Bra burning Women’s March 2017 Black Lives Matter History of Feminism Intersectionality Dr. Kimberlé Crenshaw 19th Amendment Jim Crow laws MeToo movement Tarana Burke From “The Handmaid’s Tale” - Gilead Clarence Thomas Anita Hill Book: “The Democratization of American Christianity” by Nathan O. Hatch The Bechdel Test The Bechdel Test Movie List Nadia Boltz Weber Article: “The Crisis of Men and Boys”by David Brooks in the New York Times The Feeling Wheel Kimberlé Crenshaw TED Talk Book: “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir Book: “The Woman’s Hour” by Elaine Weiss Book: “The Krunk Feminist Collective” by Brittany Cooper Book: “Feminism is For Everybody” by bell hooks Book: “The Feminine Mystique” by Betty Friedan Theme music by Daniel Wheat! Find his music and merch at his Bandcamp And follow his Instagram Special Guest: Alison Buxton.Support Following the Fire

Nathan and Steve discuss the age-old conundrum of why Christians don’t show more of the Fruit of the Spirit than non-Christians. Spoiler-Alert! They remain frustrated. It’s dark outside, thus Nathan is tired Steve has been sleeping! Everyone should go to therapy (if possible) Steve talks about his neurological diseases in episode 28 Nathan needs more "crunch" Sleep makes everything better LGBTQ+ Listener update Conversion Therapy is bad. Documentary: “Pray Away” on Netflix Book Club Episode 45: “Heavy Burdens” with author Bridget Eileen Rivera Article: “The Four Sides”Christian perspectives of LGBTQ+ relationships as “sides” Fruit of the Spirit: Galatians 5:22-23 Fishbone Diagram Dunning-Kruger Effect Theme music by Daniel Wheat! Find his music and merch at his Bandcamp And follow his Instagram Support Following the Fire

Nathan and Steve go through the survey "The State of Theology" which was published recently and find that, not only are they both wildly heretical, but that the Ligonier group writes REALLY bad questions. Steve and Nathan are both exhausted because they’re privileged Nathan is overly concerned with the Trump Mar-a-Lago case Pep Band is fun Church is weird “Do I Stay Christian” by Brian McLaren The State of Theology Survey Ligonier Ministries R.C. Sproul Reformed Theology Martin Luther Calvinism Doctrine of “Original Sin” Survey Data Explorer Support Following the Fire

The USA Supreme Court keeps throwing us curveballs, the folks in Trumpland are still doing the same-ol', everything's burning and most people just want to watch. How are we supposed to handle this kind of crazy and still, somehow, follow God? It’s been a rough few weeks in the news Nathan is nervous about his opinions Nathan, however, has a lot of opinions about opinions Somehow Steve & Nathan have become pro-choice Both-sides-ism is dangerous Steve's not feeling the USA love The world has always thought of America like we now think of Trump People don't make good decisions Empathy requires engagement Russia needs to GET OUT! Is rural America the danger zone? Documentary: "Fantastic Fungi" on Netflix Book: "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan Documentary: "How to Change Your Mind Steve needs shrooms Theme music by Daniel Wheat! Find his music and merch at his Bandcamp And follow his Instagram Support Following the Fire

Love matters more… than what? How about EVERYTHING? Even being right? Yup. We had the privilege of speaking with Jared Byas (the author of “Love Matters More” and co-host of “The Bible for Normal People”) about his fantastic book. We discuss how to move from a faith focused on knowledge to one focused on love. Book: “Love Matters More” by Jared Byas Podcast: “The Bible For Normal People” Book: “Genesis For Normal People” by Jared Byas & Pete Enns Book: “Faith After Doubt” by Brian McLaren Book: “Misreading Scripture Through Western Eyes” “The truth shall set you free” - John 8:31-32 “I have come to set the captives free” - Luke 4:18-19 Burning Man Scholar: Jon D. Levenson “I have plans for you…” - Jeremiah 29:11 Book: “What Would Jesus Deconstruct?” - John D. Caputo Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guest: Jared Byas.Support Following the Fire

What is Truth? : Turns out that facts aren't important as the truth Pilate asked Jesus a question that never got answered: "What is truth?" In this episode, Steve & Nathan discuss the kinds of truth, if it's relative, if it's meaningful, and how all of this fits in to our faith. Don't worry -- ALL of your questions will most definitely be answered in this episode. WARNING: This one is pretty heavy on philosophy, so you might not want to listen while you're driving. Hannah got a leopard gecko Kristi hates snakes (not Garden-of-Eden-related) Next episode is our book club reading “Love Matters More” by Jared Byas “What is truth?” - John 18:28-38 Book: “Faith After Doubt” by Brian McLaren Knowledge vs. confidence curve Book: “Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul” by John Philip Newell TikTok video by user @fatalprosellc Bhagavad Gita Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” By Brian McLaren “The truth shall set you free.” - John 8:32 Tone indicators “I’m a Mac, I’m a PC” commercials John Hodgman Book: “The Areas of My Expertise” by John Hodgman Film: “Twelve Years A Slave” Nathan needs bees! He also has no honey Get a Daniel Wheat T-shirt! Listen to Daniel Wheat’s new album, “The In Between” on Spotify Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Support Following the Fire

This episode is an introduction to an ongoing series on the Lord's Prayer. This episode will take a very high-level view of the prayer and invites experience over information! Scripture: Matthew 6:9-13 Jazz Standards and Improvisation over a simple tune: "Salt Peanuts" and "Blue Train" Video: The universe is amazing This mini-series is a chance for listeners to connect and contribute! Please submit your thoughts and ideas HERE. The next mini-series episode will feature the prayer in context, differences between the two prayers, and then a dive into the first line! By the way! Daniel's album featuring our theme song has officially been released! Check it out HERE! Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Support Following the Fire

Cursed?: What to do with the curses in Genesis 3 When Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the Garden of Eden, God laid down several curses. For the serpent, the woman, and the man. But what do we DO with these curses? Are we supposed to perpetuate the ideas behind them, or move away from them? What’s this story teaching us, anyway? We also discuss the sad state of gun violence in the USA. We wish we had the answers. Gun Violence in America Article: “America's gun culture - in seven charts” FBI Crime Statistics Book: “When Thoughts and Prayers Are Not Enough” by Taylor Schumann Podcast: The Holy Post The Curses of Genesis 3 Genesis 3 Nathan’s permaculture method: Hügelkultur Celtic Christianity Book: “Sacred Earth Sacred Soul” by John Philip Newell Star Wars character: Darth Plagueis 4th-5th c. Monk: Pelagius Original sin Gnosticism Book: “The Divine Conspiracy” by Dallas Willard Pyramid Texts Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” By Brian McLaren Terry Pratchett Books Show: “The Handmaid’s Tale” Book: “The Handmaid’s Tale” Show: “Brooklyn Nine-Nine” Show: “Our Flag Means Death” Next book club book: “Love Matters More” by Jared Byas Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Support Following the Fire

We had a fantastic time hanging out with Brian McLaren to talk about his new book, "Do I Stay Christian?" – the follow-up to his book "Faith After Doubt". The book first answers with "No" then "Yes" and then discusses "How" we should live, regardless of the way we answer that question. It's a brave, humbling, and important book. READ IT! Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” by Brian McLaren Website: www.brianmclaren.net Book: “Faith After Doubt” by Brian McLaren “By their fruits you shall know them…” - Matthew 7:15-20 The Reformation Council of Trent John Philip Newell Video: Presentation Steve attended by John Philip Newell Richard Rohr Center for Action and Contemplation Black-Owned Book Stores in the United States Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guest: Brian McLaren.Support Following the Fire

Generation Z may just be the people who save us all (but only if they want to). Steve & Nathan talk to Steve's kids, Hannah and Noah, to discuss their views of faith and how their parents' deconstruction has changed things for them. Includes a bonus Gen Z slang lesson you won't want to miss! What's in the show is in the show England doesn't exist Nobody lives in New Mexico TikTok: @chrispaulrainbows Ladybird Fancypants Beat Saber Minecraft Massivecraft Destiny Apex Legends Terraria MIT Scratch Visual Programming Generation Z Generation X Boomers Millenials September 11 Attacks Challenger Explosion COVID-19 Pandemic Wicca Comic: “Someone is wrong on the internet” Discord Parasocial Relationships YouTuber - Dream Good Mythical Morning YouTuber - Jack Septic Eye Gen Z Slang Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guests: Hannah Martin and Noah Martin.Support Following the Fire

During the last five years of his life, best-selling spiritual writer Henri Nouwen became close to a traveling circus trapeze troupe, The Flying Rodleighs. He passed away before he could write the book about the spiritual lessons of his time with them, so his friend, Carolyn Whitney-Brown, picked up the pieces and completed “Flying, Falling, Catching”. In this episode we got to spend time with Carolyn talking about Henri, the book, and lessons we can all learn about the spiritual journey from an unlikely source: trapeze artists. Book: “Flying, Falling, Catching” Henry Nouwen Carolyn Whitney-Brown YouTube channel for the book United Church of Canada Intervarsity Christian Fellowship L’arche USA Video: The Flying Rodleighs performing Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guest: Carolyn Whitney-Brown.Support Following the Fire

Confusing informational trust with relational trust can lead to all kinds of trouble. Steve and Nathan talk about how seeing the cracks and seams in the bible can deal a blow to our faith, or how it can change it for the better. Is there more to the Bible than Biblical Scholarship and data? Is there more to the stars than atoms and molecules? Rocks have been tumbled, results were underwhelming. Steve is TikTok Famous Nathan would not deal well with fame Welcome @Maklelan fans! Nathan doesn't understand Geopolitics Steve thinking about money, recruiters gives Nathan an idea It's not personal, it's business: Looking for ultimate values in faith groups is revealing. Nathan continues contra-certainty crusade IdolatryAn idol is usually a good thing that we make ultimate. We say, "Unless I have that, I am nothing."— Timothy Keller (@timkellernyc) February 16, 2014 Book: The Sin of Certainty by Peter Enns Trust vs. Certainty Hebrews 11:1 Data over Dogma Buddhism Discovery of disease spread though water What stars are made of Materialism Catholic Bible different from Protestant Bible All scripture is useful for… If I know all things but have not love…. Jesus rebukes biblical scholars for getting priorities wrong: Matthew 23:23-24 Canonization Common Book of Prayer Book: Faith After Doubt by Brian McLaren Greatest Command: Matthew 3:36-40 Possible geographic errors in Mark? Genitive vs. Dative Morocco mosque Phil 2:6-11 Video: Raiders of the Lost ark Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Support Following the Fire

Blogger, speaker, and podcaster Kate Boyd joins us to discuss the process of deconstruction, how to approach it, and the importance of not doing it alone. Find all of Kate's info here: KateBoyd.co Wesleyan Quadrilateral Film: "Shadowlands" Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp Follow his Instagram And listen on Spotify Special Guest: Kate Boyd.Support Following the Fire

This is a rebroadcast for Transgender Day of Visibility. We got to talk with Natalie Drew – a devout Christian, pacifist, and kind of a theology nerd who also happens to be a trans woman. She shares her story with us of struggling with life before beginning her transition after having a wife and 2 kids, how her marriage weathered the storm, and she gives some great advice to other LGBTQ people in the church, as well as for the rest of the church. I do want to let you know that suicide does come up a few times in this episode. Natalie Drew: Twitter - @natdrew79 Book: “Jesus the Gentle Parent” Raw Tools “Deadnaming” Gender Dysphoria Gender Identity Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” 2 Corinthians 12:6-9 Naked Pastor cartoons “The Most Sincere Prayer” Open Theism Greg Boyd Book:“Crucifixion of the Warrior God” by Greg Boyd Merism Natalie’s Blog Hebrews 1:3 1 Samuel 8 Sacrificial love of Christ - Philippians 2:5-11 Heather’s Twitter (Natalie’s wife): @heatherdrew Cisgender Documentary: “Disclosure” Bridget Eileen Rivera Austen Heartke Biblical love: 1 Corinthians 13 Special Guest: Natalie Drew.Support Following the Fire

Episode 50 will be "Flying, Falling, Catching: An Unlikely Story of Finding Freedom" by Henri Nouwen & Carolyn Whitney-Brown - (buy it here)Support Following the Fire

Bible nerds unite! Nathan & Steve got to have a wonderful conversation with TikTok-famous Bible scholar Dan McClellan. Topics include the cognitive science of religion, the problem with univocality, the development of inerrancy, and… does God look like a cow? Dan’s TikTok account Dan’s dissertation: “The Cognitive Science of Religion and the Conceptualization of Deity in the Hebrew Bible” Identity Politics Data > Dogma Merch What is dogma? Book: “People’s History of the United States” by Howard Zinn The Documentary Hypothesis “Univocality” Marcion Psalm 137 The Reformation The Enlightenment Logical Positivism Pete Enns Book: “The Bible Tells Me So” by Pete Enns Book: “How the Bible Works” by Pete Enns Book: “The Bible With Sources Revealed” by Richard Friedman Earliest written parts of the Bible: Deuteronomy 32 Deuteronomy 33 Judges 5 Psalm 68 Exodus 15 Genesis 49 Links to all of Dan’s stuff Special Guest: Dan McClellan.Support Following the Fire

Daniel Wheat has been the official Following the Fire troubadour since day one. He's working on a new album and talks to Nathan and Steve about how the progression of his music and the development of his faith are so closely bound together. Kickstarter for Daniel’s album Daniel Wheat on Spotify Update: The album has been launched and is available HERE Special Guest: Daniel Wheat.Support Following the Fire