The Story Rules Podcast

"And he gave a very (interesting) thought experiment. He said, go to your Facebook, remove all your school friends, remove all your relatives, remove all your college friends, work friends. And, if you're able to get 10 people after removing all of this, then probably you're lucky. Okay. I think that had a very profound impact to say that, you know… It was true, right? You know, because all the people that I knew, we're all from the same college, same school, same town, blah, blah, right? You know, you would never have like a Swiggy delivery executive as a part of your Facebook friend list, right? You would never have someone who is a farmer as a part of your WhatsApp contact list, right? Which means that, you know, our worldviews are generally also limited, right? So research allows you to break away from that and meet other people and gives you an opportunity to learn about their stories."Welcome to the Story Rules podcast with me, Ravishankar Iyer, where we learn from some of the best storytellers in the world, find their story, and unearth the secrets of their craft.Today we speak with Dharmesh Ba, a behavioural researcher who writes the popular India Notes newsletter and is the founder of 1990 Research Labs.I came across Dharmesh through leading India-based VC Sajith Pai – who dubbed him as ‘Indus Valley's chief anthropologist’ (though Dharmesh prefers the term ‘ethnographer’).In simpler terms, Dharmesh is an expert on the art and craft of understanding user behavior and motivations, through detailed personal interviews - so that we can design better products and services. Why is this important? I remember an interview from Oct-2019 of Kalyan Krishnamurthy, the CEO of Flipkart, where he stated the importance of this task. His key point: The e-commerce puzzle had been solved for the top-tier users in the country – the top 8 cities. But for the vast middle and bottom tiers, product managers would need to completely reimagine every aspect of the product from the ground up. They can only do that by a comprehensive understanding of user behaviour in their context and environment.Dharmesh and his team are among the ones at the forefront of this initiative – to understand user behaviour. Their clients include leading corporates and non-profits which are building products and services for these hundreds of millions of aspiring Indians… and Dharmesh and team are doing the critical and under-appreciated task of deeply understanding their world.They do this through in-depth, well-researched and structured conversations with the users. There’s a lot of science and craft that Dharmesh uses to ensure that the interviewee trusts him and is willing to share the true reasons for their choices. We will learn about them in this podcast conversation.And while we will learn about interviewing techniques, analysis approaches, and presentation tips, the overarching message I could glean after speaking with Dharmesh was – be curious, empathetic, and respectful.It’s a must-listen conversation for anyone keen on conducting detailed user interviews, analysing the responses, and coming up with clear recommendations – for product design, research, employee well-being – multiple use cases.Let’s dive in.Show Notes:Dharmesh on LinkedIn and TwitterLink Tree with most popular links and work by DharmeshIndia Notes Newsletter

This is a different type of podcast episode: one where I'm the one being interviewed!“So, as a storyteller, you have three things in your hand to make an appeal right, you've got the data or the logic. You've got the emotional appeal to your audience. Most importantly, you've got your Ethos, your reputation, your credibility.  And if you make a series of wrong recommendations based on quick (assessments, thinking), 'I'm very, very sharp and I have got this great intuition', it may go on well for some time, but eventually, the probability will catch up with you and when that happens, then you will realize that, oh, (and) the audience will also realize that ‘We can't rely on your word anymore. We'd like to see more evidence, please'”That was me on my own podcast (yup, it's weird to be quoting yourself).As I said, this is a different kind of podcast episode. In this one, I’m the one being interviewed, and the interviewer is Harish Bhamidipati, a good friend, and the co-founder of ​Choose to Thinq​ and ​Align by Design​. (Incidentally, his firms do some unique, highly valuable work for startups and big companies – and you should check it out through the links).In the conversation, Harish spoke with me about my ​recently published long-form essay​ on the crucial role of Causality in storytelling.The conversation was the brainchild of Harish (and his wife Sirisha) who felt that the 17,000-word essay may be a bit daunting for folks who don't get time to read... and they may appreciate an audio conversation about it.But instead of a plain reading of the essay (which would anyway be difficult given the visual elements embedded in it), we decided to have a conversation about the essay.We talk about two broad topics:1. A deeper dive into some of the key messages of the essay and the implications for different stakeholders. 2. My process for writing this long-form piece: The initial idea to write it, the research process, structuring the piece, actually writing it, adding visual elements, and finally editing the write-up.So - in case you haven’t had time to go through the essay and would like a quick overview - or would like to know more about my reading, reflection and writing process, go ahead and listen to this deep-dive on: ‘​Causality: The Elusive C at the Heart of Story​’.Show notes:-  Essay link -  Ravi’s YouTube video on how to up your storytelling game post ChatGPT and Microsoft Copilot- Harish’s work – Align by Design (a transformative leader alignment program that  enables organisations achieve unparalleled growth) and Choose to Thinq (enables companies and individuals to continuously build future relevance)

“When I do the corporate workshops, most people start from this point of view. They are about 35 to 50. They are probably in the peak of their career-related progress, they are doing well, they can easily get their next job. It's not a big deal. They are very well connected offline or online. They’ve networked well, they attend industry events; perfect. Everything is going swimmingly well. My only concern or the only point that I start with is, think of personal branding as insurance. When would you take life insurance or car insurance? When things are going well; when you have money, you will take insurance.”Welcome to the Story Rules podcast - today we speak with Karthik Srinivasan, a leading communication and personal branding expert. In this conversation, we start with the habit stack that makes Karthik so productive in sharing his work online. We discuss his reading habits, content curation, simple note-taking process, reflection habits, and finally how he articulates his thoughts. The surprising takeaway – Karthik relies on the simplest of tools to ship his work. For those who are stuck figuring out the ‘best note-taking tool’, the 'number one content-tagging system', or the 'ideal productivity app'... stop searching. It doesn’t matter. Go with any tool. Just get started.In fact, if you are a mid-career leader who is not actively sharing specialised content on social media, a blog, or a newsletter, this episode will hopefully serve as inspiration to get started on your personal branding journey. Personal branding is not just about promoting oneself. It's about being genuine and sharing your unique knowledge and perspective with others who can benefit from it. And as Karthik says, you will be the biggest beneficiary of this effort. I loved the frame that Karthik gives of looking at personal branding as career insurance.During the conversation, Karthik and I also geek out on the evolution of advertising as a means of storytelling - especially how adverts have transitioned from being forced on viewers to being on-demand.We then discuss some common tools used in advertising, such as:- The element of surprise to hold the audience's attention, - Using emotions to form connections with the audience, - The use of framing, - Analogies and - The need to start from where the audience is. Finally, Karthik shares his nuanced thoughts on the emerging use of AI in advertising and marketing, using some relevant examples. It’s a must-listen conversation for anyone keen on personal branding and modern advertising trends.Let’s dive in.Show Notes:Karthik's website and profile on LinkedIn, Twitter and InstagramKarthik's talk on mastering the 9-second attention spanAds discussed in the episode:- Ad of Asian paints- Sudha Murthy thingPhonePe ad campaign featuring Alia Bhatt, Aamir Khan- Semiosis- Brooke Bond ad - Spotify ad- Birla Pipes ad- Thai ad- Rahul Dev ad- Jaguar light fittings ad- Cadbury 

“Some amount of anchoring and mooring toward identity is important. But that’s the word – your identity should be a mooring: it tells you who you are and from there you can depart to wherever you want. It tells you where you started and which direction you want to go in. But if instead of being a mooring, it becomes a straitjacket – you are held together and your mooring is also a radius beyond which you cannot move, then it becomes naturally constraining.” That is Nitin Pai, founder of the Takshashila Institution (A think-tank and school of Public Policy based in Bangalore). Nitin is a public policy intellectual and has been my go-to thinker on the topics of geopolitics, defence economics and public policy choices.Nitin once said - “The stories we tell ourselves shape the reality we live in” – and it is this avatar of his as a teacher – and student - of narratives that I wanted to know more about on this podcast.In this episode, we dive into several topics around narratives and storytelling:Nitin talks about how narratives are at the most fundamental level about identities and how that means - we can become prisoners of our own narratives. He shares the evocative analogy of how narratives can serve as a mooring or an anchor for who we are, but can sometimes also become a straitjacket, severely constraining the space that we as societies create for ourselvesOn public discourse, I liked Nitin’s frame of the four levels of stories that societies (and organisations) can grapple with.  Level one being the story of ‘Who we are’, our identity; Level 2 deals with ‘What are the key problems’ that we want to focus on, Level 3 being the ‘What are the right Solutions for these problems’ and Level 4 that dealing with ‘Where do we want to go’, our vision. Unfortunately, a lot of societies often get stuck at Level 1, making very little progress on the higher levels.In sharing these stories, there are two broad types of narratives that Nitin says we can use – narratives of hope and narratives of fear. While narratives of fear can get short term electoral gains, over time, people become tired of being fearful… and look forward to more optimistic narratives.Nitin also shares why the medium of narrative dissemination also matters – specifically, how Nitin himself started with blogging, then got into Twitter in the early 2010s, how he got disillusioned with it and what alternatives he’s exploring now.We also geek out about the meaning and utility of frames and frameworks in storytelling.Finally, Nitin shares why everyone should read philosophy and fiction.It’s an eye-opening conversation.Let’s dive in. Show Notes:Nitin Pai's websiteNitin on Twitter, Mastodon, LinkedInTakshashila Institution website and Nitin's interview on the organisationNitin's book, The NitopadesaHis article on the Four Levels of Public Discourse

“If the process and the methodology for collecting the data isn’t clearly explained, it becomes that much easier to bat that data away. I find that the best estimates we have on consumption expenditure which show that in 2017-18, if you spent more than 8,500 Rupees a month as an individual it puts you in the top 5% of urban India. That’s something that people often push back against, find unbelievable, or want to say that “There are so many people I know who are spending this, that; you can’t tell me I’m in the top 1% of the country”, (I think that it) comes from us not being able to properly explain how these numbers were calculated and what goes behind it. Explaining to people “Is your objection that this is being missed? Let me show you how it is actually captured in the data,” “There’s all this black money – let me tell you how consumption doesn’t mean that black money isn’t captured.” I completely believe that there’s a failure of communication rather than a refusal to accept reality on people’s parts.”That is Rukmini S, eminent data journalist and author of ‘Whole Numbers and Half Truths’ a seminal book that looks at India through the lens of data.Quick – answer whether these questions are True or False:1. Delhi has the highest rate of crimes against women in India2. Most of India’s migration is rural to urban 3. UP is safer for women than many big states as per an NCRB report4. India has a large middle class5. You are a part of that middle classIf you answered ‘True’ for any of the questions above, you need to read Rukmini’s book.I teach how to craft narratives with data and one of the things I used to take for granted was the ‘data’ part. Earlier on the podcast, when I'd interviewed Brent Dykes (author of ‘Effective Data Storytelling’), we discussed the importance of ensuring that the data part of the equation is tied up and not taken for granted.And if you aren’t rigorous about getting the right data, you end up with narratives that may be divorced from the truth. Just like those True/False statements above.But if those statements are not true, then what is the truth?As per Rukmini’s book, the answer is, um, complicated. In a series of ten illuminating chapters, she covers a wide range of topics about India – from crime to education to income, to eating habits to how we vote and how we fall ill – and deftly unveils a truer picture of India.In this conversation, Rukmini shares her approach to researching and writing the chapters. She shares her productivity approach of getting writing done during the pandemic despite being a parent to two young kids! She gives her nuanced take on India’s unique data architecture and why it’s in all our interests to safeguard and nurture it. Finally, she also shares the need for better communication and storytelling of data findings, especially if they seem to contradict the audience’s perception based on lived reality.Let’s dive in.Show Notes:Rukmini S on  Twitter, Instagram, MediumHer book - 'Whole Numbers and Half Truths'Her articles in The Hindu

“Oftentimes people try to demonstrate how hard they have worked, so they try and show activity. You are expected to do that activity! If you didn’t do the hard work, don’t keep telling me “I met so many people” and so on. That’s at a very Senior level. Which is why, when you’re talking to people at a very senior level in Consulting like CEOs and others, their time is very precious. They don't want to know all the activity you have done or if your numbers are right, because they have to be right; because you can’t make stupid mistakes. You will be fired if you make those errors. All of that is assumed. Tell me what YOU really think. Which is why even when it comes to investing, the great founders have great stories.”Today we speak with Toshan Tamhane, currently Chief Strategy Officer at UPL and ex-Senior Partner at Mckinsey and Co.In storytelling, clarity of communication is a key goal. And one firm which has exemplified that in business communication is Mckinsey. After all, this is the firm that gave birth to the Pyramid Principle (through Barbara Minto), which is something I teach regularly as a part of my courses. Now, I was always keen to speak to a senior leader from Mckinsey about how they view the art and craft of storytelling – and was I lucky to have the opportunity to interview Toshan Tamhane.Toshan spent 18+ years at Mckinsey across 55+ countries advising leading companies and individuals. Currently, apart from his role as CSO at UPL Ltd, he is also an active angel investor and avid adventure enthusiast.Across these years, Toshan has had a ringside view of several high-stakes communication events with senior stakeholders. Earlier it would have been as a presenter and now, increasingly as a reviewer. I thought it would be great to tap into his vast experience and get his insights on the best practices for storytelling at work.In the conversation, we go through a wide range of topics - Toshan’s reflections from his IIM-Ahmedabad years, the lessons from Mckinsey, how he would solve business review meetings, his use of relatable analogies and his insane curiosity for deep conversations.I should reveal here that Toshan happens to be a batchmate from my graduation college – the Podar College of Commerce and Economics in Mumbai.He was always a prodigious talent since early days – the rest of us at college would be in awe of his drive and clarity. It was great reconnecting with him after almost 2 decades…  and I learnt a lot from this conversation. I’m sure you will too.Lets dive in. Links:Connect with Toshan Tamhane on LinkedIn and Twitter

“And then something amazing happened – what I heard from the audience was, “Ohh!” and then right after that, all of my conclusions started coming out of their mouths. And after that, all my recommendations started coming out of their mouths. I never drew my conclusions, or made any recommendations, but every one of my recommendations got implemented. It was the most effective presentation (that) I (had) made in the whole 20 years at Procter and Gamble”Paul Smith is the bestselling author of books such as ‘Lead with a Story’, ‘Sell with a Story’ and ‘The 10 Stories Great Leaders Tell’.Paul specialises in what I call as ‘human stories’ – which is narrating specific incidents from work and life that contain valuable lessons or insights. Through his books, Paul teaches us how to use such incident stories to lead better and to sell better.Now, you might think that the ability to narrate incident stories is a God-given one – you either have it or you don’t. But reading Paul’s books gives you the clarity and confidence that this is very much a learnable skill. Look, I get it. As a skill, storytelling may seem esoteric, mysterious and difficult to break down into component parts. But it is possible to do that… and of the many books I’ve read on the topic, Paul’s books are perhaps the best at achieving a neat, structured breakdown of this craft.In this short but insight-filled podcast episode:Paul talks about his life journey and how he used a mix of thinking clarity, determination and sheer hard-work to pivot his career from the corporate world to the world of storytellingHe also shares some great story examples that you can use immediately at your work. For instance:He narrates a story of when he made a presentation to P&G’s senior leadership, where instead of telling his findings upfront, he took the audience on a discovery journey and tapped into their curiosityHe offers ideas on how to elicit stories from your clients and other counterpartsPaul also mentions when should you use elaborate storytelling techniques vs just share the information requestedFinally he surprised me with what is he currently upto (you will find it hard to believe) and how he plans to 'go for the stars' in his latest innings.It has been a privilege for me to have such an accomplished author and storyteller on the podcast. I hope you find the conversation as insightful as I did.Show notes:Paul's website, YouTube channel, LinkedIn, TwitterPaul's books on storytelling:- ‘Lead with a Story’, - ‘Sell with a Story’  - ‘The 10 Stories Great Leaders Tell’

“Whether It’s a start-up or not, narrative building is important. I think of it in terms of ‘lines, not dots.’ Whenever you see someone do a great presentation, sell a great story, etc., I don’t feel there’s an overnight success; that person has put in a lot of work to shape something (from nothing). Typically, the people who have (good) narrative skills, (are the people who) are using it all the time. They would have had preliminary communication going out; they would have articulated it; some bit of self-selection of the audience would have happened over time. Success happens when there’s a fit between the audience, the product, and the content.” Sajith is a VC at Blume Ventures and arguably the most astute observer and thought-leader on India’s vibrant start-up ecosystem.So I’ve been a fan of Sajith’s writing for several years now. He has the rare gift of being able to discern patterns which are unseen-yet-obvious-in-hindsight. He’s able to then label them making them easier to discuss and analyse. For instance, he created the Indian consumer stack as 4 parts – India 1 Alpha, India 1, India 2 and India 3. Sajith is a prolific writer on his blog, on LinkedIn and on Twitter. Over the years as I followed his writings, I almost always found them sharing something new and insightful, in an easy-to-understand yet engaging manner.In short, to me Sajith was a rare leader – an accomplished business executive turned successful investor, who was also a gifted storyteller.I’d been wanting to have him on the podcast for a long time… and I must admit – it was not easy getting him. But I persevered and he was patient and receptive to my request. I’m so glad that I put the fight – this is perhaps the most insightful conversation I’ve been a part of. There are so many gems across such a wide range of topics. For instance, Sajith shares with us:- Why you should ditch newspapers and instead focus on curated newsletters and podcasts- How everyone can sharpen their thinking, learn from others and form better connections by doing one simple thing: writing online- Why it is critical to choose the right metrics in measuring and rewarding performance and in telling data stories- How data presentations should be about “lines and not dots”It's a fascinating conversation  - I hope you learn as much from it as I did.Links to show notes:Sajith's website, newsletter, LinkedIn and TwitterThe article on Indo Anglians

“The only thing I would say is ask fundamental questions; ask stupid questions; insight lies in interrogating the obvious. It lies in asking the obvious. It’s not new knowledge, it’s in the old knowledge. It’s in asking 'why' to the most basic questions. The most basic questions are the ones that I think will give the most interesting answers.” That is Santosh Desai - a leader who wears many hats. Santosh headed an ad-agency, currently heads a brand consulting firm, is a published author and a long-time columnist for the Times of India. His weekly column City-city Bang-Bang - which he has been writing for 17 long years - paints a vivid, relatable yet surprising portrait of India’s fascinating culture. Some of these columns have been compiled in a book called 'Mother Pious Lady: Making Sense of Everyday India'. I’ve always been a fan of Santosh’s work. Specifically, his stellar observational skills (which to my surprise, he says are not that great!), his ability to see the unusual in the usual and his almost poetic writing abilities. In this conversation, we dive into the secrets of how Santosh Desai does his magic. How does he view the world with his unique fundamental questions. How he finds patterns and mental models that help him interpret and understand this world… and how he finally brings it all on paper with his lucid and lyrical prose. It is an eye-opening conversation, especially for left-brain-heavy folks like me who tend to over-rely on data, logic and structure!*****Episode Links:Santosh's website and Twitter handleSantosh's essay series 'City City Bang Bang' in the Times of IndiaHis book:  'Mother Pious Lady: Making Sense of Everyday India'. The Bharat Darshan reports on the Future Brands Consulting website

“No data exists on its own; there has to be a story, or a theory, or a hypothesis which connects that and everything else that we know about the world or the subject matter of your story. When you say that these two states in northern India have developed, is it reflected in the GDP per capita numbers? Is it reflected in the unemployment numbers, that government data itself is collecting? Is it reflected in the other development indicators?”That is Pramit Bhattacharya - the ex-Data Editor at Mint and currently a freelance data columnist based in Chennai. He writes the 'Truth, Lies, and Statistics' column for Mint, and 'Simply Economics' column for the Hindustan Times.Data is the core raw material with which we build a story. If the quality of your sand or clay is rubbish, then the bricks, and the house that you build with it, will also be rubbish.Pramit has spent several years tracking macro data in India - from various government and institutional sources. He deeply understands the storied history of India’s statistical infrastructure as well as some of the recent troubling developments in that space. Over the years, he has written several detailed pieces arguing for what needs to be done to improve our data foundation.He has also written data-driven investigative pieces which have shed more light on key sectors of the economy.In this conversation, Pramit shares some of the techniques that we can all use when working with data:1. The importance of validating your data.  - How do you know what data sources (especially from the government) to trust?  - How the use of transparency - especially concerning the raw-data and collection methodology - can engender trust in data?  - And how you can check the credibility of one metric by triangulating data from other related sources?2. Hypotheses vs bias: Pramit also shares the technique he uses to avoid getting swayed by his own hypotheses and biases when he's investigating a data story.3. Counter-factuals: Finally, he talks about the importance of the counterfactual - a key technique to ensure that we don’t get too influenced by alarmist headlines. By asking ourselves - 'Ok, X looks bad, but what is the counterfactual? What is the norm for a similar context?' - we can be better placed to come to an informed judgement about X.It’s a conversation filled with practical nuggets of wisdom that you can use to improve your own data stories.Unfortunately, we had to cut this conversation a bit short because of an unforeseen commitment that he had. I definitely hope to continue my conversation with Pramit sometime in the future!With that, let’s dive in.***Show notes:Pramit's columns in MintPramit's columns for Hindustan TimesPramit on Twitter and LinkedInPramit's article on reading budget dataPramit's article on the pitfalls of night lights data

"I think the message that I wanted to leave people with was “Can you swap anxiety with curiosity?” This is something I’ve been trying to do for myself: when you’re in an anxious situation, can you take a curious approach and say “What is going on? What can I learn from this?”, whether you can postpone the anxiety to when it is more useful to be anxious, is something that I was keen to get out in this piece"That is J Ramanand, the Co-Founder and Upleveler at Choose to Thinq, which enables organisations and individuals become future relevant.Ramanand is a master quizzer, quizmaster and an expert at using the power of curiosity to help others uplevel themselves in a 'shape-shifting' world.So here’s a confession. I’ve always been in awe of quizzes.For one, the sheer thrill of quizzing.Even though I’ve participated in just a handful of quizzes throughout my life, I still remember the memory of the dopamine hits when I would get an answer right. It must be amazing to get these hits much more often in life!The second reason relates to the skill of quizzing. Now, many of you may know this, but for those who don’t: Good quizzes are not reliant on memory. As Ramanand says, they have 50% of the answer hidden in the question itself… and the participant can use the powers of deduction to arrive at the answer.Now, while the ability to deduce an answer with the given clues is one key quizzing skill, the real skill for me is the craft of creating good quiz questions. And it is this craft which has several parallels with storytelling. Both skills use the power of surprise, familiarity and curiosity to deliver an engaging experience to the audience.Ramanand is uniquely placed to shed light on these two related skills: - He is a die-hard quizzer - incidentally he was the youngest winner at BBC's Mastermind India and has appeared as an expert on the show Kaun Banega Crorepati (India’s version of Who wants to be a Millionaire) - He’s a sought-after quizmaster: for the last couple of decades he’s been setting questions on an average of at least one a day. That’s thousands of questions! - He’s an engaging and thought-provoking writer - He works closely with the leadership at different organisations in helping them navigate the ‘shape-shifting world’ as he calls it and stay future relevantI had a ton of fun geeking out on quizzing and storytelling techniques with Ramanand. Finally, make sure you listen to the fabulous, fascinating story about the Indian flute maestro, Pt. Hariprasad Chaurasia. Let’s dive in. ****Show notes:J Ramanand on LinkedIn and Twitter Choose to Thinq websitePosts by Ramanand on the CTQ blog: - Three lessons on Managing a remote team - How Fouls Changed FootballQuora posts by Ramanand: - A favourite question he created - Favourite personal moments from quizzingA piece Ramanand wrote  for Mint: The Computer History Museum 

Often at work, when I would get bored, I would press CMD-Tab on my Mac and head off to drown myself in the joys of the internet. Movie reviews on Rediff.com, Sports writing on Cricinfo, and funny videos and trailers on Youtube. (Of course I was doing all this to learn the art of storytelling).And on Youtube, while I would watch videos by a variety of creators, perhaps the group that I enjoyed the most was All India Bakchod (or AIB). For the uninitiated, AIB was a comedy collective which created funny sketches and videos on a variety of topics. Some of their well-known series included: - The Honest series - a seriously funny take on all experiences from restaurants to flights to engineering campus placements to the Big Fat Indian Wedding- The Bollywood spoofs: Check out the viral one with Alia Bhatt, or their work with Irrfan- Political satire: the biting one on the news media or the one on electionsIt’s really good stuff. I found the quality of their storytelling so good that I don’t think I’ve missed ANY of their sketches (yep, I even liked the Pista one).I also liked the fact that AIB would always respect its writers and prominently credit them in their videos (often getting these reticent creators to appear at the end to ask for the mandatory subscribes and likes).One such writer I noticed in some of those videos was a shy, nerdy looking guy called Devaiah Bopanna. I realised later that he was the Head Writer there.Cut to - a few years later - I came across some funny posts by Devaiah on an unlikely platform - LinkedIn! And I also learnt that he - along with some AIB stalwarts like Tanmay, Nupur, Vishal, Puneet - have been responsible for the crazy viral CRED ads - including the one featuring Rahul Dravid as Indiranagar ka gunda and Javagal Srinath and Venkatesh Prasad as members of a boy band.And then I decided that I need to get Devaiah on my podcast to get his take on the craft of storytelling. It took some time, but I’m glad that I persisted.Devaiah is a multifaceted and thoughtful creator. During the conversation he talks about:- His curiosity being his biggest learning driver- Why he would think extra hard about the opening in a story- How AIB made its stories surprising yet familiar- The parts of storytelling where he personally struggles withIt’s a fun, insightful conversation. Enjoy!A small note before we begin: There are parts where Devaiah uses some fairly colourful language. Since this is a show for adults, I’ve chosen to keep them in. But please be mindful in case you are listening with young folks around.Further links:Devaiah Bopanna on LinkedIn and Twitter

“And their stories would suddenly be much more powerful than the story I triggered their thought with. So that's how I started speaking to women and collecting these stories. And the whole idea behind it, which seems to be working so far, is that you can deny opinions, you can question studies, but you cannot deny real experiences of real people.”That is Mahima Vashisht, the incredibly talented writer of the 'Womaning in India' newsletter. (You haven't subscribed yet? Off you go and sign yourself up pronto!).In my podcast, all my guests have taught me a lot about the craft of storytelling. But it’s rare to come across a guest who - apart from storytelling - has also taught me how to be a better person. Mahima Vashisht is one such guest. I was introduced to Mahima’s writing through Anustup Nayak on Twitter. And I was quite blown away by her work. In the 'Womaning in India' newsletter, Mahima shares stories about everyday issues faced by women. Issues like discrimination at the workplace, mental load at home, unequal sharing of domestic chores, under-representation at leadership levels across fields…and so on. And while these stories are backed by research and stats, Mahima’s main tool is her collection of stories. Real stories shared by real people. Stories that are told with honesty, engagement, empathy, relatability… and generous amounts of humour. (One of Mahima’s superpowers is her ability to take crappy 1990s Bollywood movie references and extract comedy gold from them!) So, two things that make Mahima a special storyteller for me: 1. Her choice of topic: Mahima writes about gender issues - a topic that impacts all of us, but has limited options in terms of engaging storytelling for those who want to know more. For the world to become a better place, a more equitable place, it is critical that these stories are shared widely, especially with men.2. Her approach in sharing them: There’s a lot to learn from Mahima’s storytelling process. She takes incidents shared by her network of friends and adds her narrative abilities and her own brand of humour to convert these into highly readable stories.In addition to her take on the craft of storytelling, Mahima also offers some perspective on the gender rights movement and why, despite all the gloom, there’s reason to be optimistic for the future.It’s a must-listen conversation - especially for men! Contact links:The Womaning in India Substack newsletterWomaning in India on- Twitter- Instagram- LinkedIn- Mahima's LinkedIn profileEmail: womaningindia@gmail.com This podcast was hosted by me, Ravishankar Iyer. Audio editing by Kartik Rajan. Transcript editing by Amisha Jha and all-round support by Sanket Aalegaonkar.

“I'm in the boardroom, he's in the middle; (There are) Managers around, listening to my presentation; I get to the slide with this insight or observation that I had found, and he tilts his head, looks at it, and then blurts out “Bullshit!” At that moment I was like, 'Oh crap, I have just stepped in it. I am not going to be one of the MBA students hired now. I am in trouble here,' and I was a little bit flustered. I wasn't expecting that reaction; I was expecting 'Oh, that's interesting, Brent! Tell us more.' or maybe, 'We should look into that.' But nope, it was basically flatly denied, and luckily, I had a mentor who jumped in and gave me some cover fire. I escaped the room that day relatively unscathed, maybe my ego (got) bruised a little…but what did die that day was that observation; that potential insight went nowhere. Nobody picked it up and said “Hey, let's look at this trend!” or anything. Basically, when the Senior VP says 'bullshit!' about something, I don't think there's another Manager who would pick it up. So, that taught me a very good lesson that I have to find a better way to approach communicating data.”That is Brent Dykes, author of “Effective Data Storytelling: How to Drive Change with Data, Narrative and Visuals” a seminal book on the topic.In 2016, Brent (who started his career in Marketing Analytics) wrote an article on Data Storytelling in Forbes magazine. That article went viral with 3-400K views. In subsequent conferences and talks, Brent was asked for book recommendations. He realised that there wasn’t anything which covered the stuff that he was talking about.. and decided to write one himself.I’m so glad he did, because I learnt a lot from his book. In a newsletter post a few months back, I’d written an effusive review of the book - no wonder, I was excited to have Brent in my podcast.In this conversation, Brent shares some of his best insights from the book:- Why do you need to tell a data story: to ensure that your hard-won insights are not ignored- When do you need to tell a data story: The simple but effective concept of the Story Zone- How do you tell a data story: the different types of narratives and the one that Brent prefers- The idea of a Data Trailer as a way of enticing the audience to listen to the entire Data StoryIn addition, Brent also narrates some fabulous contrasting examples - of people who struggled to make an impact because of poor storytelling, as well as of folks who changed the world through the power of story. Links to resources:Brent's LinkedIn profileBrent's Twitter accountWebsite for Brent's bookBrent's book on Amazon: Effective Data Storytelling: How to Drive Change with Data, Narrative and VisualsMy blog post on Brent's book with the Story Zone visual.This podcast was hosted by me, Ravishankar Iyer. Audio editing by Kartik Rajan. Transcript editing by Amisha Jha and all-round support by Sanket Aalegaonkar.

“So, I have this concept which I call ‘Listening to Ignite’, which is, you're listening for things that can really light up the other person. So, it's about what your curiosity clicks into. And can you ask a question that allows them a launchpad to show the best of their skill, their experience, their expertise, their background? And I think in that occasion, when you're thinking of those questions, when you're thinking of something you remember, not being present with that person is almost the more generous act.”That is Max Dickins, an improv artist who helps leaders and their teams get extraordinary outcomes through the use of improvisation techniques.Many months back, I had reviewed Max's superb book, 'Improvise: Use the Secrets of Improv to achieve Extraordinary Results at Work' and was delighted to have him on my podcast.For the uninitiated, improv, short for ‘Improvisational theatre’ is the art of unscripted theatre. But it goes so much beyond that. It’s a whole different way of thinking. A way of thinking that has applications in almost all aspects of life - whether at work or at home.In the book, Max shares several lessons from improv that can help you to: • Be more creative • Listen better • Become more mentally agile • Improve spontaneity • Enhance collaboration • Embrace failure and learn from it We touch upon all of these topics in the conversation. I specifically was curious to know how Improv principles can help us listen and present better at the workplace. Max has some great ideas for us. Links to resources:Max Dickins' websiteMax' Twitter handleHis LinkedIn pageHis Amazon author pageMy review of his bookThis podcast was hosted by me, Ravishankar Iyer. Audio editing by Kartik Rajan. Transcript editing by Amisha Jha and all-round support by Sanket Aalegaonkar.

“You have to woo the reader. You have to persuade the person, first of all, to read what you have written that's the very first thing. If you have failed there then you've already failed. It doesn't matter what are the gems of wisdom. So the notion that you have to woo your reader was important.”That is Swaminathan Anklesaria Aiyar, aka Swami, the legendary and long-serving columnist for the Times of India and one of the foremost chroniclers of the India economic story.Growing up in Mumbai, the Times of India was a daily habit at our household. Here’s what I would unfailingly do, when I got my hands on the newspaper:- I’d look for ‘interesting pictures’ in Bombay Times (I mean, let’s be honest, I was in my mid-teens)- In the main paper I would chuckle at RK Laxman’s cartoon of the day- I’d then ignore the rest of the front page and head straight to the sports pages.- And when it would be the Sunday Times of India, I would head to the edit page and first read the ‘Swaminomics’ columnToday, I’m not exactly a big fan of the Times group. But I still like the Sunday Times of India, especially that edit page and especially Swaminomics.Since my early teens, I have marvelled at Swami’s ability to demystify complex economic and political news and distil the key essence for the lay reader. He would take contrarian perspectives and back them with solid data and clear analysis. You might disagree with his opinion, but you couldn’t ignore it.Swami is a legend, a doyen of economic journalism in India. And so, it seemed like a moonshot - what if I could interview THE Swaminathan Anklesaria Aiyar for this podcast?Well, dreams do come true.After a few emails and some help from his daughter Pallavi (who I knew from earlier) I was thrilled when he agreed to come on this podcast!In this conversation, Swami narrates key milestones from his 56-year writing journey … (That’s right, 56 years - he’s been professionally writing for 14 more years than I’ve been on this planet).He shares his research sources, how he records his ideas, his contrarian approach, and the focus on lucid writing. It’s a memorable conversation. Let’s dive in.Links to resources:- Swami's columns in the Times of India- Author page for the Economic Times- CATO Institute Profile- Books by SA Aiyar

“So the best way to address this, I thought, is the tip I give any aspiring public speaker just whatever your fears are, tell them that. Put it out there. If you're thinking "Oh my god I'm gonna have a disaster tonight and I can't believe all your faces are looking extremely ugly and it's making me even more anxious", tell them that. Yes, it'll take them a minute to second or two to process and be shocked, but then the brutal honesty of the connection that you're doing there will take you with them for the rest of the piece once you do that leap of faith you have to take the risk and that jump."Today we speak with Aravind SA, a leading stand-up comedian and extraordinary storyteller.I had attended a show by SA in Pune many years back. I vividly remember one statement he made - and I’m paraphrasing here - he said, “I don’t make jokes, I tell stories.” Which is what he does in most of his shows. SA takes real-life incidents that he’s undergone, many of them traumatic…  writes them down after extracting every drop of humour from them and then proceeds to perform them with his manic, intense, infectious energy.But more than his funny bone and intensity…, what struck me was his deep, unabashed honesty. SA presents his full authentic self to you, warts and all.For instance, he talks about his deep-seated need for attention… which makes him want to perform… coupled with his paradoxical fear of public speaking (which means he practices his routines obsessively).He also opens up about mental health and how he copes with Attention Deficit Disorder.This episode is a fascinating deep dive into the mind of an artist who’s as driven as he’s talented… and who’s fearlessly pushing the boundaries in his profession. Links:The famous 'Why I hate Lungi Dance' videoSA's 'I was not ready da' show on Amazon PrimeSA's 'Madrasi Da' show on Amazon Prime

The guy with the most productive Friday evening in journalismMy most anticipated email of the week arrives every Saturday at 10 am. It's a weekly newsletter called The Nutgraf and it's written by Praveen Gopal Krishnan (COO at The Ken, India's foremost subscriber-driven business-news publication).  The Nutgraf is an indepth, 10-min analysis of a crucial topical issue - one that goes far deeper than the typical banalities and cursory analysis that make up for 'opinion pieces' in major dailies - and looks for 'connections and consequences' - in a way that makes the reader go "Ah, now I get it".Reading these fascinating, immensely thought-provoking pieces, I used to think: Man, they've employed a person just to write one article a week. This is how, I surmised, his schedule must be like for the week:- Monday-Tuesday: Research- Wed-Thursday: Writing, rewriting and edits- Friday: Final proof-reads and hitting publish for Saturday.Then I realised that it was written by someone who was the Head of Product at The Ken (now COO). Surely, he must be busy with, erm, Product-related responsibilities?The new narrative in my head was - perhaps he spends most of his time on Product (say 75%) and then spends the balance 25% on writing.​Boy, how wrong I was.PGK is a 100% Product guy. His job Monday to Friday is to work on The Ken's product. And then, just as all of Bangalore finds its way into the pubs and restaurants in Indiranagar and Koramangala, our man starts. With his research.In a manic, unprecedented, staggering five-hour marathon-sprint between 6 pm to 11 pm, PGK researches, understands, writes, edits and finalises the Nutgraf edition to be published the next day.At around 10.30-11 pm he passes it on to his colleagues (God bless them) who review, edit and proof-read the content and add their comments.The next morning, Praveen reviews the comments, resolves them and gets it ready for publishing. On some days, just in time at 10 am.As I was saying, I was blown away.In fact, when I heard about this writing process, I had one overwhelming thought: you remember the disclaimer you get at the beginning of an action reality TV series - something on the lines of “These stunts are done by professionals and must not be tried at home”?Well, Praveen pulls off those kinds of stunts every week. He’s a bit of a maverick genius.The Podcast conversationIn this podcast conversation, Praveen talks about - The early influence of reading (especially re-reading) on his life - The impact of theatre - His strong belief in the effectiveness of the three-act narrative structure in storytelling- His love for Aaron Sorkin and- Most fundamentally - why is his newsletter called the Nutgraf! *****You can follow Praveen on Twitter or LinkedInLinks for- The Ken- The Nutgraf

You know Deja Vu. But do you know Vuja de?“…there is deja vu. Where you see something new but you find it familiar, and you go to a place for the first time and you say wow, doesn't this remind me of (Something).... or you meet somebody for the first time and you say, doesn't he look like (someone)... and this attempt to try and take the new, and, and put it in boxes which are old and familiar for us - that's deja vu. And ... what can work for us is Vuja De which is the opposite of that. When you look at the same old thing and you say wow, never seen it before. And it's such a powerful idea so you see a car, and you see somebody driving it and you say wow somebody's driving a car. So if nobody was driving your car, you could have a driverless car.”That is Prakash Iyer, an accomplished leader who wears many hats: Ex-CEO of Kimberly Clark Lever, bestselling author of several books on leadership, speaker, coach and most of all, a gifted storyteller.Of course, in this podcast interview, I have chosen to focus on his storytelling skills. I came to know about Prakash’s books through Ameen Haque, a leading story coach and collaborator. I was hooked! Prakash’s books are like a delicious box of chocolates - filled with several short stories, anecdotes, fables and allegories - all of which offer rich life lessons. His collection of stories come from a wide array of sources - including from his own observations of life around us. His ability to spot the Vuja-de (i.e. to see something new in the familiar) is off the charts. But, for me, what really stands out in his writing is his incredible analogical thinking. For instance, check out how he gleans several life lessons from everyday activities such as using teabags and flying kites. Another recurring theme in his writing is the use of sports as a metaphor for life. Especially his genuine love for cricket shines through in the compelling anecdotes he shares about the game.In this conversation, Prakash talks about the influence of his family, the importance of persistence in writing, how he kept his love of writing going even when his job was in Sales, and how he goes about thinking and writing his stories.Links & ResourcesBooks mentioned in the conversationThe Habit of WinningThe Secret of LeadershipYou Too CanVideosLeaders are like TeabagsGo Fly a Kite!Prakash Iyer's websitePrakash on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube

"So I used to tell her these fairy tales also, like Cinderella and Rapunzel and somehow when the story got to the part when Cinderella had to be rescued or Rapunzel had to be rescued, I would find myself changing the story because I didn't like it. I didn't want my daughter to grow up thinking that she needs to wait for some boy to come and rescue her and that she is going to be this passive person who doesn't take charge of her life..." That is Sowmya Rajendran, a brilliant, thoughtful writer who I would describe as a literary torchbearer for the gender movement in India.Welcome to the Story Rules podcast with me, Ravishankar Iyer, where we learn from some of the best storytellers in the world, find their story and unearth the secrets of their craft.I came to know Sowmya first through her children’s books - which by the way, pack in a world of meaning in them. For instance, take her book, “Girls to the Rescue”. In this book, Sowmya overturns the typical ‘damsel in distress’ plotlines of most fairy tales. Instead, the girls in her stories are smart, independent and take charge of their own lives. Later, I read some of her interpretations of the depiction of gender in cinema and how that is changing - ever so gradually - especially in south Indian films. (She frequently writes on cinema with a focus on the depiction of gender - for 'The News Minute' online publication). For instance, check out this richly analysed, nuanced review of 'Drishyam 2', the Malayalam superhit sequel to the original blockbuster.Finally, I read Sowmya’s only adult fiction novel - The Lesson (published in 2015) - a scathing indictment of the patriarchy deeply embedded in Indian society.The Lesson is a darkly satirical tome, and represents, for me, the 1984 moment of India’s gender movement. In the book, Sowmya paints a dystopian totalitarian future where masculinity and hyper-patriarchy have been taken to their extreme logical conclusion. It's an absurd, deeply disturbing, and unfortunately, not entirely implausible tale. It's a book that should have gotten more attention.As I was reading through Sowmya's writing (and connected it with the section on patriarchy in Yuval Harari's Sapiens), I had a realisation.We live in a world divided by nationality, religion, language, customs… but having one unifying theme: Patriarchy. While massive strides have been made in the past several decades in the gender rights movement, the underlying patriarchal mindset - which is several millennia old - will not be easy to change. Thankfully, in the long struggle for gender rights, we have leaders like Sowmya who are putting in their unceasing, fearless and most importantly, creative storytelling efforts ... in bending this long arc of the moral universe towards fairness and justice.More power to you Sowmya!Enjoy this long, in-depth conversation with her.***You can get in touch with Sowmya through her Facebook or Twitter accounts.