Open Threads

Hey! Just want to let you know that I’ll be taking a break (for a bit) from recording new episodes of this Open Threads podcast.But don’t unsubscribe! I promise to come back to this feed with new conversations as soon as the opportunity arises.In the meantime, be sure to check out my other podcast, Bootstrapped Web, which my co-host Jordan and I continue to publish on a weekly(ish) basis. That show is where we both share our behind-the-scenes real-time stories of running our businesses. 10-years in and our long-time fans really seem to enjoy it. I invite you to come along for the ride there!I’m always sharing my updates on Twitter @casjam and in my newsletter, which you can subscribe to at briancasel.com.I’ll be back on this feed soon enough!

Lemon Squeezy, the new platform for building SaaS businesses went through quite a few iterations before J.R. Farr and the Make Lemonade crew figured out what it is and who it’s for… And how to make people aware. Lots of gems in this conversation!Watch this episode on YouTubeJ.R. Farr:J.R.’s company, Make LemonadeJ.R.’s product, Lemon SqueezyJ.R. on Twitter: @jrfarrBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I invited Corbett back on the show when I noticed he’s been picking up steam on his Substack-based newsletter. Clearly, he’s in the exploration phase of his next entrepreneurial chapter. The perfect time for an Open Threads check-in :)Watch this episode on YouTubeCorbett Barr:Corbett’s website, Starting ThingsCorbett on Twitter: @CorbettBarrBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Founder Summit was one of the best conferences I’ve attended because it’s built on the idea that a conference is really about the relationships, not the headline speakers. Tyler Tringas, founder of Calm Company Fund, takes us through how Founder Summit came together and where it’s going next.Watch this episode on YouTubeTyler Tringas:Tyler’s company, Calm Company FundTyler on Twitter: @tylertringasBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Harry Morton, founder of Lower Street, is back on the show today to take us inside the creative process behind big brand podcast productions. These aren’t your run-of-the-mill interview shows. This is what next-level podcasting looks like — and how Harry built an amazing agency business around it.Watch this episode on YouTubeHarry Morton:Harry’s company, Lower StreetHarry on Twitter: @podcastharryBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations. Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

In 2020, after a hugely successful run building and exiting MOJO Marketplace, J.R. Farr announced the formation of a “dream team” new company known as Make Lemonade. What they’re making is truly impressive. We get into it!Watch this episode on YouTubeJ.R. Farr:J.R.’s company, Make LemonadeJ.R.’s product, Lemon SqueezyJ.R. on Twitter: @jrfarrBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

After building, selling and exiting Fizzle, a community and content-based business, Corbett Barr decided to hit the reset button. How? By deleting all of his social media and past blog content to start with a clean slate. We explore what came next.Watch this episode on YouTubeCorbett Barr:Corbett’s website, Starting ThingsCorbett on Twitter: @CorbettBarrBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

From bootstrapping and selling a SaaS to… Starting a fund for bootstrapped SaaS companies. Tyler Tringas talks about that transition and what he’s learned since starting and growing Calm Company Fund.Watch this episode on YouTubeTyler Tringas:Tyler’s company, Calm Company FundTyler on Twitter: @tylertringasBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

It’s strange how little we talk about the code side of building and running a software business. So Benedikt Deicke, technical co-founder of Userlist, joins me to geek out on Rails, front-end frameworks, software testing, and more.Watch this episode on YouTubeBenedikt Deicke:Benedikt’s company, UserlistBenedikt on Twitter: @benediktdeickeBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I’m on a quest to geek out with all my founder friends who are also musicians. Harry Morton shares a love for the combo of tech + creativity in music production. We geeked out about pursuing careers in recording studios, synthesizers, making music as a hobby, and buying unnecessary music gear.Watch this episode on YouTubeHarry Morton:Harry’s company, Lower StreetHarry on Twitter: @podcastharryBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations. Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Craig and his family moved to France for 5 years, but they’ve moved back here to the states. We unpack life and business abroad vs. stateside and the many tradeoffs.Watch this episode on YouTubeCraig Hewitt:Craig’s company, CastosCraig on Twitter: @TheCraigHewittBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

In SaaS, speed matters. A lot. Benedikt Deicke, co-founder of Userlist, joins me to chat about shipping speed and how we decide what to build next. It’s too easy to get these essentials wrong!Watch this episode on YouTubeBenedikt Deicke:Benedikt’s company, UserlistBenedikt on Twitter: @benediktdeickeBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I could talk for days about music. So can Justin Jackson. So we geeked out on our favorite bands, documentaries, and how these experiences actually shape us as entrepreneurs (believe it or not!).Watch this episode on YouTubeJustin Jackson:Justin’s company, TransistorJustin on Twitter: @mijustinBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

After exiting his 1st SaaS, then shuttering all his social media profiles, Nathan Powell is back online with a new idea for a SaaS. Let’s dig into it.Watch this episode on YouTubeNathan Powell:Nathan’s previous company, NusiiNathan’s current company, Feature FluxNathan on Twitter: nathanjpowellUXBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

The story of why Nathan Powell quit the internet for a while after exiting his SaaS business (and why he came back).Watch this episode on YouTubeNathan Powell:Nathan’s previous company, NusiiNathan’s current company, Feature FluxNathan on Twitter: nathanjpowellUXBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Tyler’s back on the show to talk about teams. Remote, in-house, culture, experience, and everything in between.Watch this episode on YouTube Tyler King:Tyler’s company, Less Annoying CRMTyler on Twitter: @TylerMKingBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Building in public ain’t all about the highlight reel. Craig Hewitt and I agree that there’s so much more to learn from our fails. The question is, how can we share them publicly in a helpful (and healthy) way?Watch this episode on YouTubeCraig Hewitt:Craig’s company, CastosCraig on Twitter: @TheCraigHewittBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today’s sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

"two things that have kind of remained constant are snowboarding and music. And I mean, I like different types of music and my snowboarding has changed, but those are the two things I've always been into that stayed the same." - Justin JacksonWatch this episode on YouTubeJustin Jackson:Justin’s company, TransistorJustin on Twitter:  @mijustinBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today’s sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brain Casel: The price of being into snowboarding or skiing these days is just insane.Justin Jackson: Yeah.Brain Casel: I mean, and that like it it's been insane for a number of years now. But then once you have kids, I mean, I've got a six and an eight-year-old who have been taking lessons for the last like three seasons. So you've got, like, rentals and lessons for them. And then, you know, four lift tickets, I mean, we go to a crappy hill in the, in the Northeast for one day plus the hotel room, plus driving there.I mean, that's like $1,000 weekend at least, you know. Yeah, it's crazy.Justin Jackson: It's pricey and it's always been expensive. But I think a family pass at our hill probably costs three or $4,000 a year I think. Mhm. And I've just gotten a family passes every year, even as my kids have gotten older and not been as into it. When we moved here my dream is like they're all going to be pro skiers and snowboarders that they're going to love it so much and you know, they all learn to ski and you know, they, they like it enough to do it a couple of times a year or whatever but. Yeah, especially my older too. They're definitely not as into it as me, but you know, that's cool too. I, it's still one thing that's interesting to me is there's not a lot that's the same from when I was in high school with me, but two things that have kind of remained constant are snowboarding and music and I mean, I like different types of music and my snowboarding has changed, but those are the two things I've always been into that stayed the same. And I, I just think it's so fun to be able to enjoy something for so long and have it evolve as I've gotten older.Brain Casel: It's really great, it is a great thing to be into as a, as like a fun sport hobby and like for me, I probably you and everyone else who does it is I love that it's so seasonal. Like, like I'm already like so like I can't wait for the snow to get here. And get into another season.And the thing that I love about it now is being an adult and a business owner is it's one of the few things that really takes me out of the way it makes me present.Justin Jackson: You know? Yeah.Brain Casel: Like being, you know, going down the mountain on a snowboard like you have to be present, otherwise you hit a tree or something, right? So like, that's one of the things that, like, for me is like a forcing function to like, it's, it's relaxing it's active, but it's it relaxes my mind.Justin Jackson: Yeah.Quote 02:Justin Jackson: That was like my kind of introduction to the industry. Yeah, they're still around "allofskateboards.com" and by this point, his whole story was so interesting because, you know, he was this a really good snowboarder. And then had these injuries and had to pivot. And then he started making these snowboards. And because he was a snowboarder, he and he was also just kind of engineering-minded.He knew how he wanted to build these and shape them. And so he was doing all of this by himself. And then it got popular in Japan. So he started building all these boards for Japan and was doing great. But then there were so many orders that he had to hire somebody, and they really messed up in order.And it almost bankrupted him as a company, And so I was the first person he'd hired since then. And he's kind of like he's just a really unique guy. Like he's kind of grumpy and just doesn't like working with people. And so I had to really prove myself. I wanted to work in the office like I wanted to do business stuff like sales and marketing and, you know, all that stuff. But he was like, No, you got to start working in the shop and I'm terrible. What year is this? This is 1999 or 2000. I'm 19 or 20 at the time and he gets me working in the shop and at this point, we're mostly, I mean.Brian Casel: 1999 I mean snowboarding is already pretty big at that point. Like it's snowboarding a big deal by that point and like all that. Justin Jackson: Yeah, snowboarding was at that point you know, the first wave had already happened for sure. And that was probably actually peak snowboarding. I think my generation was peak snowboarding from 95 to 2005. Yeah. It's probably the best that's around the time, but we're.Brian Casel: Probably around the same age and I yeah, I picked it up in.Justin Jackson: Like high school and into college and yeah, I mean, it's hard to explain to people now, but snowboarding was a cultural phenomenon, like every kid had a snowboarding poster on their wall, whether they snowboard it or not. It was like every kid was buying Snowboarder magazine whether they were snowboarding or not.Quote 03:Justin Jackson: I teamed up with initially it was like I was working a full-time job, and so we hired my brother to manage it. My younger brother and I were probably 21 at the time. And then my friend Adrian was a skateboarder and I started my first business ever really was in grade 12 with him. We'd put on a rave together and actually done really well.Brian Casel: And so another cultural force of the nineties.Justin Jackson: Yeah, another cultural force in the nineties. And so it just seemed like this would be a great agent. And I, you know, he's a skateboarder I'm a snowboarder. I'd worked in the industry and it was, it just felt like this is going to be a great combination.Brian Casel: And like location-wise, you want to do it in your hometown.Justin Jackson: And we want to do it in our hometown, which is probably a mistake because this was.Brian Casel: The area that that's like not that close to big mountains.Justin Jackson: Yeah. It's we're like, yes, Stoney plain in Spruce Grove or these bedroom communities but that's still a lot.Brian Casel: I mean, like even growing like I grew up in Long Island, New York. And then even up here in Connecticut, like there's plenty of snowboard and ski shops in the suburbs for these families who buy stuff. Yeah. So take road trips, right?Justin Jackson: I think the problem was that Edmonton was still close enough. It was 30 minutes away It was a city of 1.2 million people at the time, probably. And I, I mean, I've written quite a bit about the real deal. The shop was called The Real Deal. I've written quite a bit about, you know, the mistakes we made. And I think one is just ignored brings people's natural momentum.So if you're, if you're a teenager in Stony Plain, Spruce Grove on the weekends, if you're going to go shopping, you want to go to the big city, you want to go to Edmonton because it's exciting, right? It's, it's that you can hit a bunch of stores. You can go out to eat, you can cruise White Avenue and, you know, all the cool strips in Edmonton.And we just ignored that. And that natural momentum and thought that people would care about like ideology, like, like shop local. But people actually don't give a shit about that stuff, you know what I mean?

“You're not going to learn what it's like to run a SaaS business unless you try to launch a SaaS business.” - Dan RowdenWatch this episode on YouTubeDan RowdenDan's company, ilo.soDan on Twitter: @drBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today’s sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brian Casel: It's obvious that the debate that comes up around this, right? Like, well, what if you were to focus full-time on one and just not do anything on the others? Right. And I mean, where do you stand on that right now?Dan Rowden: Um, most of the time I find it very difficult to pick one side and then stick with it because when if he if he's stick to the do multiple verdict side, then you might be missing out on the potential of taking one much further than you can when you're working on four or five things at once. Whereas if he if you do, then go to one project which one do you pick?Dan Rowden: Because I'm in a position where I have multiple projects, I would have to pick one. It's not like I'm starting from zero and just starting one. So I then have to like take the chance on one of them. And kind of leave the others to kind of just do nothing for a bit. And maybe I'd pick their own project.Dan Rowden: Maybe I'd let the other ones die off by accident when they could have actually kind of just stayed on. Like, there are a lot of pros and cons to both sides. Personally, I like working on different projects and I like being able to switch between things because each of my projects I started because I wanted them to exist and because I see a value in them existing and I like working on them as problems and as markets.Dan Rowden: So know to like pick yellow or pick cove and just do that would be a shame to me really. At the end of the day that might not work on the other ones.Quote 02:Dan Rowden: I think I tweeted about this recently. Is that, like my big project hasn't started yet and sometimes feels like whatever I'm working on now is just kind of those small kinds of getting me to somewhere else? And that maybe, maybe the one big project is in the future somewhere which is kind of a weird way to think about, Brian Casel: I mean, the work you're working on because... Dan Rowden: because right now this is like my everything. It supports my family. And it's what I do every day to think of it and to think of it as just like a temporary kind of stepping stone to something else. Yeah. Strange to think sometimes.Brian Casel: But that's what it is, though, really. That's what it is. I mean, especially in like the first half of the career, it's you're not going to learn what it's like to run a SaaS business unless you try to launch a SaaS business. Right. And chances are the first couple of ideas are not either not going to work at all. Or they might work a little bit, but they're not going to grow fast. That's, you know. And then there are exceptions where it does grow a lot. As I remember my very, very first product was selling WordPress themes. This was in 2008 - 2009, and I remember thinking because at the time I was just a freelance web designer doing WordPress sites for clients.I was like, who? Who knows if I'll be able to sell even one of this WordPress? Yeah. But I know that if I spend the next three or four months, building out my own custom "theme shop", I'm going to learn a ton about what it's like to try to build and sell a digital product on the Internet. And I did. And then it was like the most amazing thing to be able to sell a $50 WordPress theme. Like And the same thing I did Restaurant Engine, which was like a SaaS for four restaurant websites. It's like, I have no personal connection to the restaurant industry, but it was the first time, like taking like trying to see what it's like to, to build a staff.Brian Casel: Right. And then and then eventually I was even able to sell that business. And then I got to learn what it's like to sell a business. Yeah. And these are just building blocks that you can build on and opt and you know, the other thing, I don't know if you've experienced this in any of you in deciding what new projects to start up, but for me, it's always been every single new idea is a reaction to the previous one.Quote 03:Brian Casel: But aside from launching a new product, maybe on product and on Twitter and on indie hackers and stuff like that, and then aside from launching new features into a product maybe sharing that out, what else do you generally do from a marketing standpoint? And do you think about any projects around like let's see if we can double MRR in this product by doing some project?Do you ever think about that?Dan Rowden: No, not typically. Um, uh, yeah. Marketing is, is hard. Um, I rely on Twitter a lot for reaching new people, especially with your because it's a, it's a product of you have built like a referral affiliate system into that to get users to bring in new users. Um, you know, has a blog that I write on. I should write on more which brings in these in a lot of traffic.Um, I have a few good keywords, especially Twitter spaces. Analytics seems to be doing quite well with bringing in new people for that Um, yeah. Like, I mean, I don't tend to be able to come up with like marketing kind of to what the word would be like campaigns or just like special events or like things like that. It's more like generic just kind of churning out content making sure the marketing site gets picked up in search engines, making sure that people that are using the product talk about it to other people.

“It's exactly the problem you just said, it's like, we put effort into it. We tried to make it good, but we were doing what we wanted. We haven't given anyone anything they wanted" - Tyler KingWatch this episode on YouTubeTyler King:Tyler's company, Less Annoying CRMTyler on Twitter: @TylerMKingBrian Casel:Brian’s company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today’s sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brian Casel: When it comes to hiring people to work on marketing stuff. What's been your approach to that? Like, are were you or are you ever like like you're going to be hands-on in it or I'm going to hire like a head of marketing to figure it out and run with it or outsource to an agency. What are your thoughts on this?Tyler King: That kind of. Yeah, I'm happy to share. But let me preface this by saying, like, I'm this is my greatest weakness or like the thing that we've probably done worse the like just a terrible job in the early days. Like, For I did most of the marketing for a long time myself. My brother, who's the other co-founder, did some as well. We kind of like. So one of my weaknesses is outsourcing. I'm just like terrible at quick transactional relationships. So I've basically never effectively hired anyone that's not a full-time employee, which is I think, the opposite of most people in our space. The good side of this is like I think we've got a really good culture and all this, but the bad side is like it's not. I've never been in a situation where it's like, Oh, we need some quick copywriting. Let me pay someone for $20 to do some copyright I just would do it myself and I'm okay at it. But I'm not an expert on any of this stuff. We didn't have a real marketing person until two years ago.Brian Casel: So like, no, the person who was working on any sort of marketing.Tyler King: I mean, me, me. And then so our customer, the biggest team of the company is CRM coaches. Which is basically customer service. They get 20% time, so one day a week they can do other stuff. So we've had a lot of CRM coaches like enjoying writing is a common characteristic of people who like customer service. So a lot of them have chosen to write help articles, write blog posts, to create content like that, but not necessarily.Brian Casel: that model of content marketing essentially. Right. Like having your, your, your subject matter experts, you know?Tyler King: Yeah.Brian Casel: Some kind of.Tyler King: The problem is we're not subject matter experts like, you know, close the CRM where that's "stellies". Yeah. So "stellies" is like this Uber sales guy, right? He knows everything about sales. And that's why CRM"s are consumed by salespeople. I look at his content, and I'm like, wow, I wish anyone at LessAnnoyingCRM had that kind of understanding of how like we have no salespeople, none of us have ever done sales before. We're selling to salespeople. We're experts on how to build software and how to provide customer service, which is not what our customers want to know.Brian Casel: Hmm.Tyler King: So I agree with you. That would be a great model, but this is one of our great struggles, is the thing like we can write interesting content, but it is interesting to people who would never use LessAnnoyingCRM.Quote 02:Tyler King: I feel like most marketing attempts in my experience have failed, like, at the end of the day, you could look back on it and it's exactly the problem you just said. It's like we put effort into it. We try to make it good, but we were doing what we wanted. We weren't giving anyone anything they wanted.And it really sucks when you have to market your marketing, like you make an e-book and then you're like, Okay, now I have to okay. How does anyone hear about this e-book? And it's like, if they're not already looking for it, like, this is just in Jackson Hole thing about like writing an existing wave, right? You're putting something out there even if it's good.But if nobody wants it now, you've got a second marketing challenge of getting people to the top of your main marketing funnel.Quote 03:Brian Casel: You're over ten years in now in this business.  Tyler King: Mm hmm. Mm-hmm.  Brian Casel: We talked about how you have the "LessAnnoyingCRM" brands. Well, like, have you thought about just firing up a new product?Tyler King: Yes, we have had a few misadventures in this in the past.Brian Casel: Like, less annoying invoicing and less annoying Yeah.Tyler King: So our name as a company is actually "LessAnnoying Software LLC" because this has been kind of the idea. Like, no one grows up and dreams of starting a CRM company. Like, it's a pretty boring thing to make. But the idea was like, let's, like, what is the core thing that everything else would build off of? And so, yeah, that has been the plan. And we've every once in a while, we start going down that path. And then coincidentally, the main business, like, starts doing better And we're like, it's hard to justify putting resources into this side thing when, you know, you could put the same resources into like you've just got a lot more leverage focusing, I think. But I'm conflicted about that.Brian Casel: One argument to make for it, I think, is that you already have a huge customer base and an even larger audience like an email list. Right. Or at least people who have tried it in the past maybe didn't fully convert. But then you still have all these paying customers. Right. So you instantly have an audience to, you know, like like whatever new product you launch, as long as it's in the same set of needs, you know, you can instantly launch two over 10k MMR, right?Tyler King: Like yeah, I think you're absolute.Brian Casel: Right of launching it, you know, and that like you're at a huge head start against every other new SaaS startup, you know.Tyler King: Yeah. So how do you decide whether to build it as a new product versus build it into the existing one? Is one question. I've struggled with What you're saying makes absolute sense from like our revenue. Like, if we build it into our existing product and it's like providing value to people and it gets a lot of usages, but you don't make any money off of it.Brian Casel: Yeah, sort of depends on what kind of product it is, I would think. Yeah, the breakdown there would be it goes in and we're about to build a bunch of new features, which maybe should be their own product, but I don't, I don't know it, but the breakdown I would think is like if it's still in CRM land, but just bigger, more powerful CRM land or maybe like a super automated CRM, like that, 's like a new, more expensive plan on the existing product. But if it's an adjacent product, that some customers might find valuable and useful and other customers might not be interested at all, you know, then spin off a separate product. But I really do think that, like, you also have the branding advantage to like, you know, you could literally call your line of products like less annoying this, less annoying that, you know.Tyler King: Yeah, I think it's a good idea.