The Grown UP Business Podcast

What if the biggest thing missing from your business plan isn't a strategy, a funnel, or a hire, but a clear answer to where you're actually trying to go? In this episode, Paul Avins sits down with Will Polston, best-selling author of North Star Thinking, entrepreneur, NLP practitioner and one of the UK's top business strategy and performance coaches. Will shares his journey from believing money equalled happiness, chasing it hard through a career as a city broker, to the moment at a Tony Robbins event that revealed his real driver had nothing to do with cash. Will and Paul unpack what a North Star actually is: not a purpose, but a life mission you'll never fully achieve but keep working towards, the business equivalent of trying to empty the sea with a spoon. They explore why entrepreneurs hit a scale-up ceiling between £500k and £1.5m, why beliefs like "I don't have the time or money" get baked in during underfunded start-up years, and how to break a limiting belief by introducing doubt through other people's references. The conversation goes deep on identity: why exited business owners often spiral into feelings of depression from losing the "business owner" identity without a life-after-exit plan, why peak performance is potential minus interference, and why "it needs to be done, but I don't need to do it" was the belief that kept Will stuck longest even after success. They also cover recovery, why sleep quality now trumps everything else in his routine, his self-love list for staying recharged, and 22, the mushroom supplement business he built to run on one to two hours a week. What you'll learn: Why a North Star differs from a purpose, and why most businesses have a vision and values while most people never define their own. Why the money-equals-happiness belief gets embedded early. Why entrepreneurs hit a scale-up ceiling around £500k to £1.5m, and why hustle gets you there but framework gets you further. How to break any limiting belief by introducing doubt through other people's references. Why exiting without a life-after-exit plan often triggers depression through identity loss. Why peak performance is a subtraction game, not addition. The difference between guilt and shame, and why "work guilt" keeps founders chained to their desks. Why multiple identities protect you through major transitions. Why sleep quality became Will's single biggest performance lever. What a self-love list is and how it drives active accountability. Why Will built 22 to prove a company can grow on one to two hours a week. Why reviewing your net worth, including your business valuation, quarterly changes how you treat the business. Apply this: Get clarity on your North Star before your next goal. Ask what you're actually doing this for, long term. Interrogate your beliefs about time and money. Find people who've proven them wrong. Build a life-after-exit plan before you exit, not after the deal closes. Treat recovery as part of performance. Track sleep quality and build in genuine off-season time. Get your business valued every quarter. Treating it as an asset, not just income, changes your decisions. Create a self-love list of things that recharge you, and use it to check in on yourself weekly. Ask "how can I do this and have fun?" instead of forcing yourself through what you resent. About Will Polston Will Polston is a best-selling author, entrepreneur and one of the UK's top business strategy and performance coaches. A former city broker turned NLP practitioner and psychologist, he's the author of North Star Thinking: Master Your Mindset and Live a Life You Love. He's also built 22, a functional mushroom supplement company, and is working to build a 6,000-seater ice arena and develop the junior academy of the ice hockey club he played for over 23 years. Find out more: https://willpolston.com Scale with Paul Avins Connect: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulavins/ Book a call: https://www.paulavins.com/book-a-call Newsletter: https://www.paulavins.com/newsletter-opt-in Level Up. Team Up. Scale Up. Fire Up.

What if the biggest thing holding your business back isn't your product or your marketing, but the fact that you're still doing all the selling yourself, and you have no idea how to build a team that can do it without you? In this episode of The Grown Up Business Podcast, Paul Avins sits down with Adam Davies, founder of Sales Chief, a fractional sales management company that runs sales teams for established agencies, service professionals and scale-up businesses. Adam shares the unfiltered truth about why most entrepreneurs give up on salespeople too early, why "fix the system, not the team" beats another hiring round every time, and why the businesses that struggle most with sales are the ones that never properly documented what actually works. Adam unpacks his own path into sales, from a self-employed, commission-only start in a boiler-room environment in his late teens, to building Sales Chief into a business that interviews over 70 candidates for every single role it fills. He explains why most business owners only ever interview three people and then wonder why their sales team underperforms, why hiring the right people matters more than volume of outreach, and why a salesperson who's good but in a rut usually just needs the system fixed around them, not replacing. Paul and Adam dig into the mechanics of a proper sales process: acknowledge, isolate, handle, re-close. They talk through why "I need to think about it" is rarely the real objection, why two-call closes can lift conversion from 8% to 27.5%, why tracking cost-per-lead and offers-per-day matters more than gut feel, and how AI-trained call analysis is changing the way sales teams get coached. Adam also opens up on the emotional side of sales: why buyers are liars (not deliberately), why salespeople need to be matched to the income level and demographic of who they're selling to, and why the best sales managers are often the mediocre salespeople, not the top performers. What you'll learn: Why stepping away from the phones without a documented process can cost you 60% of your sales overnight. Why the average business only interviews three people per sales role, and why Sales Chief interviews over 70. Why hiring mums on flexible contracts, or matching a salesperson's income level to their buyer's, changes conversion rates. How a two-call close process took one client from 8% to 27.5% conversion. Why "I need to think about it" is a smokescreen, and how to acknowledge, isolate, handle and re-close a real objection. Why cost-per-offer and offers-per-day are the metrics most businesses never track. Why listening back to your own best sales calls breaks a slump faster than any pep talk. Why the best sales manager is rarely your top-performing salesperson. Why documenting your own sales process is step one before you ever hire. Why recruiting two salespeople at once beats recruiting one. Why "fix the system, not the team" should come before another round of hiring. Apply this: Document your own sales process before you hire anyone. Ask AI to interview you about what you do well, then turn it into a playbook. Don't judge a salesperson on one bad month. Track daily data and look for patterns before making any decision. Handle objections in sequence: acknowledge, isolate, handle, re-close. Most reps skip the isolate step and lose the sale. Get your team listening to their own best calls, not generic training content, to rebuild confidence and momentum. Match your salesperson to your buyer. Income level, demographic and life experience all affect whether they can build trust. Hire two salespeople at once if you can. The training cost barely rises and you get built-in redundancy and competition. Know your numbers inside out. A grown-up sales team can define a good month, a bad month, and find its bottlenecks within days. About Adam Davies Adam Davies is the founder of Sales Chief, a fractional sales management company that builds and runs remote and fractional sales teams for agencies, service professionals and scale-up businesses. He started out in commission-only sales in his late teens and has spent over two decades in sales and sales leadership, including as head of sales for Andy Harrington, before launching Sales Chief to help entrepreneurs fix their sales systems rather than just their headcount. Connect with Adam on Instagram: @adamdaviessales Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-davies-b95a52b1/ Visit Sales Chief: https://saleschief.co Scale with Paul Avins Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulavins/ Book a call with Paul: https://www.paulavins.com/book-a-call Subscribe to the Scale Up Newsletter: https://www.paulavins.com/newsletter-opt-in Level Up. Team Up. Scale Up. Fire Up.

What if the difference between a business that stalls and one that scales past $100M isn't talent or budget, but whether you build your team the way elite sports teams build theirs? In this episode, Paul Avins sits down with Kevin Mark-Watts, author of The 10 Ten-Minute Rules, a specialist in peak performance, and a leader with over 30 years across retail, HR, and commercial leadership, including seven years as Commercial Director of Crystal Palace Football Club. His work has been published in CEO World, and his framework takes the principles of elite sports performance science and applies them directly to business. Kevin's own story starts a long way from boardrooms. Dropped from his school football team as a ten-year-old for a cheeky comment to his coach, he spiralled into failing his exams and left college before finishing his A-levels. A retail job selling made-to-measure suits changed everything: within weeks he'd found he was a natural salesman, and by his early twenties he was running stores, then managing areas, then leading HR for a 700-store, 7,000-employee retail chain. A redundancy led him to Simon Jordan's fast-growing mobile phone business, which scaled past $300M in turnover, and from there into Crystal Palace, where he helped run the club through promotion, relegation, and one of English football's more chaotic dressing rooms. Paul and Kevin get into the moment a Crystal Palace manager assaulted a player, refused to admit the mistake, and lost the entire dressing room within weeks. They talk about the ProZone data system that helped get Palace promoted through marginal gains most clubs weren't tracking yet. Kevin explains the $400K ceiling he hit as an entrepreneur, why second and third generation hires are rarely as invested as the founding team, and why only 7% of businesses ever break past the $1M mark. He also makes the case for treating founders like athletes: pre-season kickoffs, recovery, and reinvesting 10% of income back into yourself. What you'll learn: Why a school coach dropping him at ten years old shaped how Kevin leads teams today. How a redundancy from a corporate HR role led to running a $300M mobile phone business. The Crystal Palace story: a manager who assaulted a player, never admitted the mistake, and lost the dressing room within weeks. Why leaders must get their key influencers on side before they can fix a culture problem. How ProZone's match data and marginal gains helped get Crystal Palace promoted. Why he built a "seat avatar" to track whether the right people are in the right seats as a business grows. Why the team that gets you promoted isn't always the team that keeps you there. Why he hit a $400K ceiling, and how second and third generation hires are rarely as invested as the founders. Why only 7% of businesses ever break past the $1M mark. Why meeting rhythms have to change as a team grows past five or six people. Why he treats entrepreneurship as a full contact sport, with no off-season unless you build one in. Why he spends 10% of what he earns on his own personal development. Why he's proud of being made redundant twice, because it proved his teams were self-sufficient. His definition of a grown-up business: when the person at the end of the chain talks about your values as passionately as you do. Apply this: Get your key influencers on side before trying to fix a culture problem, they carry your message further than you can alone. Track the data on your team the way elite sports teams do, not just how people feel about their performance. Reassess whether the people who got you to your last milestone are the right people for your next one. Build a pre-season into your year, a kickoff, a half-year review, don't assume a team performs at full speed from day one. Put 10% of what you earn back into your own development. Have the uncomfortable conversation and admit the mistake before it costs you your best people. About Kevin Mark-Watts Kevin is the author of The 10 Ten-Minute Rules and a specialist in applying elite sports performance science to business teams. With over 30 years across retail, HR, and commercial leadership, including seven years as commercial director of Crystal Palace Football Club, his work has been featured in CEO World magazine. He now works as a coach and advisor to founders and leadership teams building high-performing cultures. Connect with Kevin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-mark-watts-13123822/ Scale with Paul Avins If this episode resonated, Paul's work focuses on helping founders step out of the day to day and scale with structure and confidence. Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulavins/ Book a call with Paul: https://www.paulavins.com/book-a-call Subscribe to the Scale Up Newsletter: https://www.paulavins.com/newsletter-opt-in Level Up. Team Up. Scale Up. Fire Up.

Why does the same approach that got you to $5m stop working past $10m? Because at that point the constraint isn't the business anymore. It's you. In this episode, Paul Avins sits down with Deborah Henley, author of Your Leadership Story (a finalist in the Business Book Awards), creator of the REAL leadership model, and an executive coach who has spent years working with leaders at Microsoft, Goldman Sachs, and the Ministry of Defence. Deborah and Paul dig into the real difference between management and leadership: management keeps the wheels turning, leadership gives people something to believe in. She talks about why growth is about what you do, but scaling past a ceiling is about who you are, and why so many founders hit an $18-20m plateau and go looking for a new strategy when what they actually need is to become a different kind of leader. Deborah also shares her own story. An idyllic childhood in Hong Kong that ended abruptly when her parents split up when she was 11. Eight schools and three boarding houses by the time she was 18. A stint as a clapper loader on Sofia Coppola's first film before she trained as a psychotherapist and hypnotherapist and spent years working in addiction recovery. She talks openly about a late miscarriage that stopped her sense of the future in its tracks, the mantra "presence in the present" that carried her through it, and the moment her husband finally believed she'd written a book, because he didn't quite trust it until he was holding it. Paul and Deborah talk about the difference between intention and expectation, why founders need everyone pulling in the same direction (what Deborah calls aligned ambition), why hustle culture is really a dopamine addiction, and why the people you spend the most time with shape your habits and your ceiling more than any strategy will. What you'll learn: The real difference between management and leadership, and why one keeps you small. Why growth is about what you do, but scaling past a ceiling is about who you are. Deborah's REAL leadership model: Results, Emotional intelligence, Authenticity, Legacy. Why intention and expectation aren't the same, and how closing the gap predicts whether you'll hit your goals. How releasing your bottom 20% of clients can 4x revenue by creating space for better ones. Why hustle culture is a dopamine addiction, and why letting go of tactical wins is the hardest part of scaling. Why most businesses stall when the founder stops investing in their own growth, not when the market turns. How growing up across eight schools shaped Deborah's adaptability, and where adapting tips into losing yourself. Why she trained as a psychotherapist and hypnotherapist and spent years working in addiction recovery. Why the five people you spend the most time with define your results more than any strategy. Why retreats accelerate growth: nature, community, distance from your usual stories, and dropping the armour. Why leaders should ask "who needs me to show up as my best self today?" every morning. Why authenticity, not perfection, is what makes a leader trustworthy. Why the leaders who stand out now are the ones willing to be real, in a world that's getting more automated by the day. Apply this: Ask what result you intend and expect for the day, not just what you're hoping for. Build a leadership team before you hit $10-15m, not after. Audit your bottom 20% of clients and create space for better ones to show up. Have the uncomfortable conversation now, you're usually only a few of them away from a lighter business. Spend deliberate time around people playing a bigger game than you. Get comfortable being present instead of chasing the next dopamine hit. Choose your own game, scale and exit or build and lifestyle, and stop measuring yourself against people playing a different one. About Deborah Henley Deborah Henley is a leadership and executive coach, author of Your Leadership Story (a Business Book Awards finalist), and creator of the Real Leadership Program and the REAL leadership model. She has coached senior leaders at Microsoft, Goldman Sachs, and the Ministry of Defence, and draws on more than 20 years across clinical psychology, hypnotherapy, and NLP. She also hosts the podcast Perfectly Flawed. Connect with Deborah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-henley/ Scale with Paul Avins If this episode resonated, Paul's work focuses on helping founders step out of the day to day and scale with structure and confidence. Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulavins/ Book a call with Paul: https://www.paulavins.com/book-a-call Subscribe to the Scale Up Newsletter: https://www.paulavins.com/newsletter-opt-in Level Up. Team Up. Scale Up. Fire Up.

What if the biggest barrier to building a multimillion pound business isn't talent or strategy, but your willingness to go all in, hire the right people, and build a culture that makes people want to stay? In this episode, Paul Avins sits down with Andrew Hulbert, a former council estate kid who started a facilities management business from his bedroom, scaled it to over £50 million in turnover with 550 staff, and exited for £80 million at age 37. Andrew shares his journey from earning £8 a week stuffing newspapers at age eight, to director at 24, to starting Pareto FM at 27 and growing it through two exits. A private equity deal let him take money off the table, pay off his mortgage, buy his parents and sisters houses, and give his dad £250,000 to retire early. He explains why he built a personal brand before it was a thing, how winning 50 awards opened doors to multimillion pound contracts, why he hired mums on flexible contracts as his secret weapon, and why he gave away 20% of the business in sweet equity to a management team of 15 who never left. Paul and Andrew explore hitting an organic ceiling at £18 million, realising the business was worth three times what he thought, working with a psychologist for two years before exiting to prepare for sudden wealth syndrome, and building a "social heart" business in a sector that had lost touch with people. Andrew also opens up on the cost of going all in: the strain on his marriage, the 1000-day countdown he put on the wall to keep his promise to his wife, and the £25,000 he spent on donuts in one year to win contracts. What you'll learn: • Why Andrew started earning money at age eight and how working class values shaped his path. • How he became a director at 24 and why a mentor changed everything. • Why he started Pareto FM at 27, spotting that big businesses were terrible at serving small customers. • How he won his first contract with Bulgari Hotel through relationship building. • Why he built a personal brand early through articles, awards, and relentless networking. How he scaled from £1.2m to £18m in six years and hit an organic growth ceiling. • The moment he realised his business was worth £20m, not £6m. • Why he sold to private equity instead of trade, taking money off the table to secure his family. • How investing £1m into overhead took him from £18m to £32m in one year. • Why hiring Bill as his first serious hire freed him to focus on sales and ops. • How giving away 20% in sweet equity to 15 senior leaders kept every one of them for 10 years. • Why hiring mums on flexible contracts built loyalty and cut turnover. How he built a movement around social value in facilities management. • Why he spent £25,000 on donuts in 2019, and how small gestures built unbreakable culture. How working with a psychologist for two years prepared him for life after the sale. • Why he put a 1000-day countdown on the wall and promised his wife he'd retire at 37. How he answered 854 due diligence questions in three and a half weeks. • Why he hired an entire hotel on Christmas Day for 75 family members after the sale. • The cost of going all in, and why his wife Heather is the hero of the story. Apply this: Spend your 20s learning skills, not chasing money — go work for a fast growth company first. Build your personal brand before you need it: articles, awards, relentless networking. Hire for trust and cultural fit, not just skills, especially for senior roles. Invest in overhead when you hit a ceiling — sometimes a million pounds unlocks the next level. Give away equity to the people who matter; sweet equity creates loyalty and alignment. Work with a psychologist before you exit to prepare for sudden wealth syndrome and identity shift. Set a get-out date — without one, the business takes you hostage. About Andrew Hulbert Andrew Hulbert started Pareto FM from his bedroom at 27, scaled it to over £50 million in turnover with 550 staff, and exited for £80 million at 37. He grew up on a council estate in Oxford, became a director at 24, and built a business that won over 50 awards by putting people and social impact at its heart. He's now a business coach, podcaster, and advocate for social value in business. Connect with Andrew on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewhulbert/ Scale with Paul Avins If this episode resonated, Paul's work focuses on helping founders step out of the day to day and scale with structure and confidence. Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulavins/ Book a call with Paul: https://www.paulavins.com/book-a-call Subscribe to the Scale Up Newsletter: https://www.paulavins.com/newsletter-opt-in Level Up. Team Up. Scale Up. Fire Up.