We're Not Marketers

Libby Lienhoop thinks the name of this show is wrong.Now the Director of PMM and Sales Enablement at Conquest Planning, she first started out her career selling newspaper coupons in San Francisco, moved into tech sales, and watched one great product marketer run enablement until she knew that was the job she wanted. Product marketers are the connective tissue between the product and the market. Her words, not ours, and here's the kicker: AI just made the good ones more important. Do you agree? We get into this next conversation, with Eric's favorite topic: why the messaging doc in your Google Drive is dead weight, and from there, jump to what to build for sales instead, helping see why website copy alone doesn't convert a sales call to closed-one. If you've ever written a messaging doc and wondered who read it, start here.Show Notes00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab00:53 Meet Libby Lienhoop, and how to actually say her name02:44 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers?03:14 Libby: PMMs are the connective tissue between product and market03:53 She started in sales, so why marketing?04:22 Selling newspaper coupons in San Francisco05:44 The product marketer whose enablement sessions sold her on the job07:17 The layoff that opened the door to marketing08:34 Her beef with marketers: the billboard isn't the sales conversation09:08 Sitting in on power-dialing sessions with the sales team10:14 No laptop, desktop only: the old-school sales floor10:58 How a boss from her coupon days brought her into ClickUp13:09 The new role: product marketing for a fintech company building AI for financial planners14:44 Why fintech is ripe for AI15:58 What's a PMM worth in the age of AI?17:32 Gab: PMMs will be managing agentic workflows18:04 The just-in-time sales deck, and why no one reads the messaging doc18:48 Eric's messaging docs: put them in the AI tool everyone already uses19:57 New market, new job: process gap or knowledge gap?21:33 Bringing a fast company's pace into a new one22:48 Two interview roadblocks: industry experience and "too long at one company"23:51 Listen to your gut, then set expectations out loud25:19 Turning four years at one company into a story27:03 The 30/60/90 plan, and Netflix's keeper test28:37 The B2B version of MySpace's top eight29:18 When AI takes your job anyway31:05 There's no one-size-fits-all way to handle a layoff32:03 Take a beat: the cortisol levels are real32:57 Where to find LibbyMentioned in the episodeLenny's Podcast, How Netflix builds a culture of excellence (Elizabeth Stone): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellenceNooks: https://www.nooks.aiFind and connect with Libby on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/libby-lienhoop-9b686442/Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Emily Pick (Director of Product Marketing at Docebo) can do product marketing in her sleep. So when she earned the director title, she took it. Is it still worth it? She tells her side of the story, and if you're asking yourself the same? You might relate with what's she saying below.Notable quotes“I was promoted because I was a good IC, and because I was a good IC, I have opinions about what good looks like.”“Every yes is a no to something else you’ve already promised.”“Great launch, great launch. Here’s everything else that’s wrong that needs to be fixed.”“Can you shoulder the emotions of your team, and can you also have the boundaries that you don’t fully take it home with you every single night?”Thinking about the jump from IC to PMM leadership? Listen to someone who made it, who will tell you what it costs, and who still thinks her team is the best part of her day.Time Stamps00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab00:49 Meet Emily Pick of Docebo, fresh off Highline02:25 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers?05:40 Player and coach: from IC to director06:58 The pat on the back you lose as a manager07:25 Why she left IC after six or seven years08:39 Zach asks: is it worth it?09:42 How your leaders make or break the leap11:56 Zach's story: the manager who punished candor12:45 Start every one-on-one with how you are13:23 Can you shoulder your team's emotions?14:55 A shout-out to the team16:07 From 10 hours of meetings a week to 2517:35 Her review note: say no more18:00 Every yes is a no to something already promised20:00 Why PMM means constant context switching21:39 Gab asks: how do you make yourself easy to work with?22:21 How to say no without starting a fight24:25 The about-working-with-me doc25:43 Bring a problem, bring a proposed solution26:30 Keeping quality up as a player coach28:37 Promoted for being a good IC30:34 The pizza place night that taught her to delegate32:15 Eric asks: is the director track worth it?33:29 Could you ask your boss to demote you?37:08 Bad decisions are what give you the experience39:06 Zach asks about the weight of a layoff39:38 A wildfire alert, mid-question40:32 What helped her after being RIF'd41:48 Build in public before you need it44:30 Where to find Emily (and Hank the dog)Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Three fractional PMMs (Eric, Gab and Zach), one uncomfortable question: when you pivot your offer, do you actually know what you're doing?In this next episode, Zach opens up about his two business pivots this year. Does he know what he's doing? That's what he asked himself. Nine months passed with ZERO sales. So he asked Eric and Gab the thing he'd been too embarrassed to ask anyone else. Both said "No, you don't know what you're doing." Who does? This is a Misfit episode, just the three of us. We get into how to tell a real signal from a bad month, why differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand, and Gab's four-letter sales audit (leads, appointments, proposals, sales) to run before you blow anything up. There's more we cover without going into too much detail here. If you're having a bad month (or year) as a fractional PMM, hop onto this audio therapy session and feel heard. Show Notes00:00 Cold open: when your self-worth is tied to your business00:16 Welcome: Zach, Eric (the Frankenmarketer) and Gab00:37 A Misfit episode: when you pivot your offer, do you know what you're doing?01:37 Eric says no: pivoting at 3, 6 or 12 months is too early to know03:36 Gab: differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand03:57 Zach: self-worth, and figuring it out 50/50 as you go05:07 Gab: be 80% distribution, 20% build06:32 Eric: you'll know when the wheels come off the train08:03 The highlight reel: what you see online isn't always what happened09:51 Zach: is it a business or a hobby?10:57 Eric: the confidence bucket13:43 Gab's own pivot: from messaging to message testing14:11 LAPS: leads, appointments, proposals, sales15:40 The comparison trap and the "fountain of leads"18:12 Gab on Dan Koe: darts blindfolded while the target moves20:29 Six figures, but are you happy?22:37 Repositioning takes time: "I still don't know what you do"24:31 Zach: not a fit isn't an indictment25:27 Closing thoughts. Eric: find people who fill your cup26:23 Gab: follow the demand. Iteration vs. a hard pivot29:20 Zach: asking for help isn't being less than30:48 The Confident Mind: claim your first victory, then audit your feed33:14 Gab: zoom out, it's a game of longevity34:26 Zach: chess is a game of patienceBooks to readThe Courage to Be Disliked, Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga: https://www.betterreading.com.au/book/the-courage-to-be-disliked/The Confident Mind, Dr. Nate Zinsser: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/441864/the-confident-mind-by-zinsser-nathaniel/9781529159028Mentioned in the episodeDaniel Priestley (LAPS, per Gab): https://www.danielpriestley.comDan Koe: https://thedankoe.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Companies are posting head of storytelling roles at around $400K a year, and Elliott Rayner (Head of Storytelling at OWOW Agency and Creator of The Story Cohort) has the receipts: 25 of those job descriptions, pulled apart in his State of Storytelling 2026 report. His read is that it is a chief product marketing officer under a different name. The skill set they are asking for is a product marketing director's skill set. So why is nobody in product marketing putting their hand up?In this episode, he breaks down his three-question alignment he's run at more than 100 companies, and why the average score is just 19% across orgs. Plus the three chemicals that decide whether a story sells, and why credibility is where most product stories fall apart. Listen now.Show Notes00:00 Welcome to season six00:19 Introducing Elliott Rayner01:29 Are product marketers actually marketers03:01 The State of Storytelling report and the $400K roles05:19 Owning the narrative is not the same as telling stories07:48 Seven reporting lines across 25 roles08:59 Storytelling is the skill, narrative is what you own10:21 Reason one: products got too complex to explain11:03 Reason two: execution has become cheap, meaning has not13:17 Storytelling is a science, not a talent you are born with14:33 Everyone wants to be better at it, nobody studies it15:54 The three questions every product narrative answers16:14 Only 19% alignment across more than 100 companies17:17 Aristotle's triangle: logic, emotion, credibility18:59 Career paths and where this role fits21:09 Connecting the story to call recordings and CRM data24:37 Where the role sits on the org chart26:02 Nobody hands you $400K without a KPI28:23 Joseph Campbell's story circle29:03 Three chemicals that decide whether a story sells32:07 The gobsmacked problem: rich language now reads as AI34:34 Fuck, marry, kill: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter37:33 The Story Engine and why we get addicted to stories38:21 Where to find ElliottBooks and Courses to See1. The Story Engine by Elliott Rayner, where the addiction-to-stories idea comes from. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/o/3c56112. The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, the story circle Elliott builds on. https://www.jcf.org/learn/joseph-campbell-heros-journeyAdditional Sources to Explore1. Product Narratives, Elliott's site and home of the State of Storytelling report. https://productnarratives.com2. The Product Storytelling Cohort on Maven. Next one runs November 16 to December 13, 2026. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/storytellingcohort3. Marketing Examples, the site of Harry Dry, who taught Eric "but and so." https://marketingexamples.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else. We get into the post, the burnout and the 11 weeks of FMLA before it, and why we put up with behavior at work that we'd call abuse at home. Then the useful stuff. Why your manager is the top reason you stay or go. The questions to ask a hiring manager before you take the job. And oh yeah, by the way? She's also coming to Death to Marketing in October.Timestamps00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves00:29 Meet Nina Churchill, recovering performance marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts01:27 Nina's coming to Death to Marketing (and Saugatuck)02:06 Gab's question: are product marketers ultimately marketers?03:42 The LinkedIn post that made Eric want to run through a wall04:18 A new manager, a burnout, and 11 weeks of FMLA06:44 "Effective immediately"07:06 Half a million people and a flood of DMs07:46 Why do we accept at work what we'd call abuse at home?10:32 Any backlash? "I can't like this, but I respect it"11:09 "Your LinkedIn is your LinkedIn"12:25 Jumping without a parachute: therapy, ADHD, and deleting the apps15:34 Blood pressure, cortisol, and life after quitting17:59 Boundaries: bad at them, or never practiced?18:59 Fresh View Concepts, 2011, and some questionable age math19:32 Running her business differently this time around20:20 "Oh, you look stable"21:15 Productive in two hours, not eight23:06 The moment she decided she was the boss23:29 The agency that always had her back25:10 From bartending to product marketing in HR tech26:07 How much your manager really matters27:59 Interview the hiring manager too30:38 The coworker who gave her name to recruiters32:04 Why she signed up for Death to Marketing34:50 Do we need to hide the booze? Mocktails for everybody35:58 Death to sameness37:31 Payroll, and why nobody trusts your AI39:40 Where to find Nina: the Sameness Report and WhirlAdditional sources1. Fresh View Concepts, Nina's positioning consultancy https://freshviewconcepts.com2. Whirl, Nina's AI mock interview tool (free if you were recently laid off) https://whirlinterview.com3. Nina Churchill on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ninachurchill/4. Nina's writing at 3Sixty Insights https://3sixtyinsights.com/author/ninachurchill/5. PostHog, Nina's example of a brand that's actually different https://posthog.com6. Death to Marketing, October 2026 https://www.death-to-marketing.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.