Joy Lab | strengthen your mental health with the science of joy

We're wired to seek control, but that drive often misfires, leaving us more anxious and exhausted than before. In this episode, we dig into the illusion of control and the much more useful concept of identifying things like agency and autonomy. We'll dive into the obstacles and key strategies to redirect energy away from what we can't control and toward what's actually ours to do. Head to the Experiment to practice this shift — and find a little more of what Thich Nhat Hanh calls the only condition for happiness: freedom.   Ready to take action? Learn more about Experiments here.    Related Episodes: This series: E289- What Are You Holding On To? The Science & Skill of Letting Go E290- Letting Go of Intrusive Thoughts & Rumination: The Pink Elephant Paradox, The Whac-A-Mole Problem, & Skills That Actually Help E291- Letting Go of the Stories You Tell Yourself: Is It True? Is It Helpful? Is It Kind? E292- Letting Go of the Need for Closure: Why Life's Biggest Problems Can Only Be Outgrown   About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating. Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North.   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I feel such a strong need to control everything, even when I know I can't? A: This episode explains the brain science behind it: our brains are prediction machines wired to seek control as a survival strategy, and that drive can misfire in modern life. There are a lot of low-level stressors we face on a daily basis. If we are trying to "fix" them all, we can get stuck in a cycle that can turn into anxiety, rigidity, and exhaustion.   Q: How do I let go of control without feeling helpless or irresponsible? A: This episode draws a key distinction between control (an illusion) and agency (real influence over your own actions, choices, and responses). We can work to identify the situation more accurately and then ask "what's mine to do?" or "what depends on me?" These questions can determine where to put your energy and where you can loosen your grip.   Full transcript   Key moments: [00:00] Welcome — letting go of control [02:00] The illusion of control [06:00] Why we're wired for control & how it can backfire into things like anxiety, rigidity [08:00] Agency vs. control [10:00] Practicing letting go with the small stuff [12:00] The control spectrum [16:00] What's within our power vs. what isn't. "What is dependent on me?" Epictetus, Stephen Covey [20:00] Control is an illusion; autonomy is real. "What's mine to do?" [22:00] Loosening the grip of control frees us from unfair burdens    Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy? Paradoxical effects of valuing happiness. doi.org/10.1037/a0022010 Morewedge, et al. (2010). Consuming experience: Why affective forecasters overestimate comparative value. 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.010  Moulding, et al. (2014). Part 2. They scare because we care: The relationship between obsessive intrusive thoughts and appraisals and control strategies across 15 cities. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.006 Nhat Hanh, T. (1998). Fragrant palm leaves: Journals, 1962–1966. Parallax Press. Palmer, P. J. (2016, April 27). The gift of presence, the perils of advice. The On Being Project. https://onbeing.org/blog/the-gift-of-presence-the-perils-of-advice/ Paumgarten, N. (2008, April 21). Up and then down: The lives of elevators. The New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/04/21/up-and-then-down Rachman, S. (1981). Part I. Unwanted intrusive cognitions. 10.1016/0146-6402(81)90007-2 Radomsky, et al. (2014). Part 1—You can run but you can't hide: Intrusive thoughts on six continents. Journal of Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders, 3(3), 269–279. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2013.09.002 Siegel, et al. (2018). Seeing what you feel: Affect drives visual perception of structurally neutral faces. 10.1177/0956797617741718 Singer, M. A. (2007). The untethered soul: The journey beyond yourself. New Harbinger Publications. Quoidbach, J., Gilbert, D. T., & Wilson, T. D. (2013). The end of history illusion. 10.1126/science.1229294 Wegner, et al. (1987). Paradoxical effects of thought suppression. 10.1037/0022-3514.53.1.5 Wilson & Gilbert. 2005). Affective forecasting: Knowing what to want. 10.1111/j.0963-7214.2005.00355.x   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here. 

Closure often feels like it should be the goal when we're dealing with grief or going through a tough time. But what if closure is actually a myth and the pressure to "get over it," "fix it," or emerge as a better version of ourselves is doing more harm than good? In this episode, we dig into the myth of closure: the mistaken belief that complex losses and life problems should be processed into some kind of clean, final resolution. We explore why closure is appealing but often not possible, what Carl Jung and Pauline Boss say about insoluble problems and ambiguous loss, and what it actually means to find healing and growth without closure.   Ready to take action? Learn more about Experiments here.    Related Episodes: Start of our Grief Series. ep. 248: Grief, Growth & The Wholeness of Being Human (Grief Recovery & Healing Series part 1)   About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating. Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North.   Full transcript here   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Is closure real? Can you ever really "get over" a significant loss? A: This episode explores why closure is more myth than reality for life's most significant losses, and why that's not a failure. Carl Jung argued that the most important problems in life are insoluble: they can't be solved, only outgrown; and Pauline Boss's work on ambiguous loss shows that some losses, by nature, never come to a clear resolution. And that's okay. Q: What should I reach for instead of closure after a loss? A: This episode discusses approaches like "continuing bonds," the idea that maintaining an evolving inner connection with what or who we've lost can be healthy and adaptive. The goal then is not closure but growth around the loss, holding both the love and the pain.   Key moments: [00:00] The myth of closure [02:00] The myth of closure and perfection [04:00] How Kubler-Ross's stages of grief got distorted and Freud's decathexis   [08:00] A drive for closure can lead us to avoid what is true  [10:00] Carl Jung on insoluble problems [12:00] Holding opposites: making the best decision possible without actually solving the problem  [14:00] The difference between closure and completion  [16:00] The first law of thermodynamics applies to grief too [18:00] Continuing bonds theory (Klass, Silverman, Nickman) [20:00] Internalized vs. externalized bonds  [22:00] Example with Alzheimer's diagnosis, the relentless nature of grief without closure [24:00] Pauline Boss and ambiguous loss: [26:00] Both/and thinking     Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy? Paradoxical effects of valuing happiness. doi.org/10.1037/a0022010 Morewedge, et al. (2010). Consuming experience: Why affective forecasters overestimate comparative value. 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.010  Moulding, et al. (2014). Part 2. They scare because we care: The relationship between obsessive intrusive thoughts and appraisals and control strategies across 15 cities. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.006 Nhat Hanh, T. (1998). Fragrant palm leaves: Journals, 1962–1966. Parallax Press. Palmer, P. J. (2016, April 27). The gift of presence, the perils of advice. The On Being Project. https://onbeing.org/blog/the-gift-of-presence-the-perils-of-advice/ Paumgarten, N. (2008, April 21). Up and then down: The lives of elevators. The New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/04/21/up-and-then-down Rachman, S. (1981). Part I. Unwanted intrusive cognitions. 10.1016/0146-6402(81)90007-2 Radomsky, et al. (2014). Part 1—You can run but you can't hide: Intrusive thoughts on six continents. Journal of Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders, 3(3), 269–279. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2013.09.002 Siegel, et al. (2018). Seeing what you feel: Affect drives visual perception of structurally neutral faces. 10.1177/0956797617741718 Singer, M. A. (2007). The untethered soul: The journey beyond yourself. New Harbinger Publications. Quoidbach, J., Gilbert, D. T., & Wilson, T. D. (2013). The end of history illusion. 10.1126/science.1229294 Wegner, et al. (1987). Paradoxical effects of thought suppression. 10.1037/0022-3514.53.1.5 Wilson & Gilbert. 2005). Affective forecasting: Knowing what to want. 10.1111/j.0963-7214.2005.00355.x   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here. 

It's great that us humans are storytellers... except when we tell rigid, oversimplified stories about who we are, what happened to us, and what's possible next. The solution is not to get rid of our stories as they can help us make sense of a complex world, build identity, and find some control in chaos. One strategy to loosen up on our stories is to do some editing to them. We can ask a story that might be holding us  three questions: Is it true? (Memory is like a Wikipedia page, not a replayable video — constantly re-edited by mood, depression, and anxiety.) Is it helpful? (We're terrible predictors of our future selves and tend to overestimate how much one event defines us.) Is it kind? (Unkind stories activate the stress response and can shut down possibility; self-compassion is the condition that makes change possible.)  In this episode, we'll dig into how we can identify our stories, ask some questions of them, and make some honest edits so our stories can become tools for growth and possibility.  Ready to take action? Learn more about Experiments here.    Referenced books (more sources below): Two Islands & A Boat (narrative therapy resource)   Related Episodes: Start of our Grief Series. ep. 248: Grief, Growth & The Wholeness of Being Human (Grief Recovery & Healing Series part 1)   About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating. Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North.   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Questions this episode was made for: Q: How do I let go of a story about myself that I've been telling for years — especially when it feels completely true? A: This episode offers three practical questions to ask any story you're holding: is it true, is it helpful, and is it kind. These questions can help us edit our stories so they are more honest and enable growth.   Q: Does letting go of my stories mean I have to pretend the bad things didn't happen or turn them into something positive? A: No! That's toxic positivity and it sucks our joy. Letting go of stories is not about denial, toxic positivity, or crafting a phoenix-rising narrative; it's about loosening the tight grip so the story doesn't have unearned power over what's possible.   Full transcript   Key moments: [00:00] Welcome — Letting go of our stories [01:00] What letting go of stories is NOT: ignoring the past, rejecting what happened, abandoning truth that keeps us safe or gives direction [02:30] Creating stories about ourselves helps us make sense of the world, form identity, find belonging, feel some control in chaos [03:00] The problem isn't that we make up stories — it's that we believe them; seeing a story as a story lets us keep the good without letting it dictate our lives [03:30] Narrative therapy: clarifying, challenging, recrafting stories; book recommendations and practitioner note in show notes [04:30] The kettlebell metaphor: stories are like light kettlebells — easy to pick up, helpful to swing around, but they get heavy with time and take resources to hold [05:30] When arms are free and open: more open to love, growth, success — and also rejection, failure, sorrow; that's why we grip; uncertainty takes skill [06:00] Thich Nhat Hanh: "People have a hard time letting go of their suffering. Out of a fear of the unknown, they prefer suffering that is familiar." — substitute suffering with stories [07:30] There can be real grief in letting go of a story — even the best decision can come with loss; link to Grief Series in show notes [08:00] But when you let go, you create space for something new — it might take a while to arrive, but at least it's possible [08:30] Even our thriving main-character stories can hold us back in unhelpful ways [09:00] Three questions to ask of any story: Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it kind? [10:00] Our brain crafts simple stories to explain complex situations — comforting, but rarely fully true for complex human lives [10:30] We retell stories until they feel more true; memory is not a replayable video — Dr. Elizabeth Loftus: memory is more like a Wikipedia page [11:00] Memory gets re-edited by many people and experiences, not just us — similar to how perception is influenced by so many things [11:30] When experiencing depression or anxiety, our perspective narrows — the stories and edits we make during those times reflect that narrowed view [12:00] Asking "is it true?" lets us examine the edits and the context in which they were made [13:00] We don't have to deny what's true, but we get to choose what fills our awareness and which stories we hold tightly vs. loosely — but only if we see them as stories [15:30] Question 2 — Is it helpful? We think stories are helpful for predicting future behaviors, but we're terrible predictors of our future selves [16:00] We overestimate the impact of events — one experience of being cheated on becomes "I can never trust anyone"; getting fired for a mistake becomes "I can never keep a job" [17:00] We see past and future through the lens of the present — hard to imagine not thinking tomorrow what we're thinking today; stories don't anticipate much change either [17:30] It's not about predicting the future better — it's about loosening the grip so we can be open to what is [19:00] Henry's clinical example: depressed clients who are certain they're miserable because of a job or relationship — he advises waiting until mood improves before deciding, because in that state the mind is unreliable [20:30] Question 3 — Is it kind? Kind speech from wisdom traditions: rooted in compassion, in support of the listener, sharing truth to promote growth and flourishing [21:00] Applying to ourselves: is the story rooted in compassion? Does it support you? Can it promote growth, or does it shrink your world? [21:30] Letting go of unkind stories does NOT mean rewriting them as Hallmark movies or phoenix-rising narratives — those things don't have to happen [22:00] Hard experiences don't need to shrink us OR require us to relentlessly optimize — both things can be true at once; we're wired for resilience, not relentless self-improvement [22:30] When we let go of unkind stories, we calm our nervous system, increase approach behaviors, become more likely to try again after screwing up [23:00] Kindness is an evolutionary superpower and one of the most effective tools for behavior change [23:30] Shame and self-criticism activate the stress and threat response, shutting down possibility; kindness and self-compassion activate learning and growth [24:00] Kindness is not just the nice thing to do — it's the condition that makes change possible; there is no other way [24:30] The three questions again: Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it kind? — join the Experiment to work with these in practice [25:00] Closing wisdom from Michael Singer, The Untethered Soul: "In order to be who you are, you must be willing to let go of who you think you are."   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy? Paradoxical effects of valuing happiness. doi.org/10.1037/a0022010 Morewedge, et al. (2010). Consuming experience: Why affective forecasters overestimate comparative value. 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.010  Moulding, et al. (2014). Part 2. They scare because we care: The relationship between obsessive intrusive thoughts and appraisals and control strategies across 15 cities. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.006 Nhat Hanh, T. (1998). Fragrant palm leaves: Journals, 1962–1966. Parallax Press. Palmer, P. J. (2016, April 27). The gift of presence, the perils of advice. The On Being Project. https://onbeing.org/blog/the-gift-of-presence-the-perils-of-advice/ Paumgarten, N. (2008, April 21). Up and then down: The lives of elevators. The

Intrusive thoughts, rumination, worrying... these are nearly universal experiences and the most important thing, particularly when it comes to intrusive thoughts, is that the content doesn't matter as much as what you do with them. Whether it's a shocking thought that pops up out of nowhere or that rumination that woke you up at 3 am and then kept you up last night, the problem isn't necessarily the thought itself. It really has to do with how we grip onto those thoughts. The harder you try to suppress an unwanted thought, the more it comes back. That's the pink elephant paradox that Aimee talks about in this episode... did you try it? How'd you do?! Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to not think of pink elephants when you don't want to. That's the ironic process theory in action, and it's why trying to stop thoughts from coming or trying to shove them away rarely works. What does work is something far more subtle: noticing the thought, naming it as just a thought (not a fact, not a prediction, not a reflection of your character), and letting your attention move on. Ready to take action? Learn more about Experiments here.    About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating. Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North.   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I keep having terrible, scary, disturbing, or intrusive thoughts? Does that mean something is wrong with me? A: No. Research has found that the content of intrusive thoughts doesn't predict worse outcomes or specific diagnoses; in fact, intrusive thoughts can be proof of how much you care about the opposite outcome; what matters isn't what the thought is, it's how tightly you grip it; this episode explains the mechanism and the path to loosening that grip. Of course, it is really important to reach out to a mental health professional if you feel overwhelmed by these thoughts. There are effective strategies that these care providers can help with.   Q: Why does trying not to think about something make me think about it more? A: That's the pink elephant paradox or ironic process theory in action. Daniel Wegner's research shows that suppression and monitoring are two competing mental processes that both take cognitive effort, and the monitoring process ensures the thought keeps coming back; this episode explains how we can avoid this paradox.   Full transcript here   Key moments:  [00:30] Recap of the series: four areas — letting go of intrusive thoughts, stories we tell ourselves, the myth of closure, and letting go of control [01:00] Rachman's definition of intrusive thoughts: repeatedly occurring, unwanted, difficult to control, accompanied by subjective discomfort [02:30] Study: ~94% of ~777 college students reported at least one intrusive thought in the last three months — Henry: one? Aimee: the 6% were probably lying [03:30] Most important research finding: the content of intrusive thoughts doesn't predict worse outcomes or specific diagnoses — it's not what the thought is, it's how often it shows up and how tightly we grab it [04:30] The skill: loosen the grip, and thoughts show up less — or at least take up less energy [06:30] We've been trained to do the opposite — to suppress and push away intrusive thoughts — which makes them stickier [07:00] The pink elephant paradox: don't think of a pink elephant... and everyone thinks of a pink elephant [07:30] Ironic process theory — Daniel Wegner; Dostoevsky earlier: "Try not to think of a polar bear, and you will see that cursed thing every minute" [08:00] The mechanism: two competing processes — suppression (distracting from the thought) and monitoring (checking if it came back) — both take cognitive effort [08:30] Whac-A-Mole as a metaphor: monitoring for moles (the intrusive thought) and whacking them (suppression) are both effortful and exhausting — and there's no Laffy Taffy reward at the end [11:00] Henry: start small — learn to recognize a thought as a thought; watch it arise and watch it recede if allowed [13:30] The real cost of intrusive ruminative thinking: complete absence of presence; those small moments add up over a lifetime [14:00] We can't be in two places at once: lost in thought and in the present moment — training and practice help us distinguish them [14:30] Somatic marker theory and embodied cognition: physical sensations can surge before an intrusive thought arises and make the thought feel more real [15:00] Affective realism: how we're feeling influences how we perceive the world — when feeling bad, the world looks worse; when feeling good, it looks better [15:30] Hangry as affective realism: hunger shifts perception of strangers more negatively; evolutionarily sensible, but not helpful without awareness [16:30] Interoceptive ability: the capacity to detect your own internal body sensations — heartbeat, breathing rate, pain, hunger; accurate noticing leads to accurate interpretation [17:30] Better interoceptive ability = less likely to have affect bleed into perception; the world doesn't look more irritating just because you are [18:30] We can work on interoceptive ability — Joy Lab Experiments do this every week [20:00] Catching emotional escalation early: a panic attack or emotional storm doesn't start at full intensity; if you notice the early subtle signs — tightening, constriction, vague sense something is wrong — and turn attention toward it, it often dissipates [21:00] Most escalation after the first surge is something we do to ourselves; you can't suppress the first unwanted thought — it comes from the unconscious — but once it shows up, you have choices [21:30] Do you believe it? Reinforce it by repeating or replaying it? Or notice it and let it move on? If you grab it, you give it power. If you touch it lightly, it passes [22:30] Aimee: this is rooted in self-compassion; thoughts don't arise from you alone — you're a thread in a big web; your thoughts are influenced by everything around you [23:30] The chips-and-canned-meat study: participants in a canned meat room predicted they'd like chips much more than those in a chocolate room — but actual enjoyment leveled out once they were eating [24:30] Two lessons: first, our environment seeds our thoughts (canned meat caused intrusive thoughts); second, when the thought was no longer influencing them, the prediction dissolved — present-moment experience replaced the thought [25:30] Humility: intrusive thoughts are often just a weird random mash of pink elephants, true crime, stress response, canned meat, past memories, anxiety — not a statement about moral character [26:00] Anne Lamott: "You can get the monkey off your back, but the circus never leaves town" — the circus gets quieter with practice, but it keeps coming [27:00] Henry ties it back to Letting Go: not pretending the thought never happened, not fighting or shoving it away; noticing it, naming it as just a thought, letting attention move on — gently [27:30] Judgment and self-criticism make thoughts sticky; self-compassion is what lets them pass through [28:00] The side effect: build this skill and thoughts escalate into full storms less often; when they do show up, you return to center quicker — it's preventive [28:30] This is a skill — the first 100 times feel awkward; by the 200th time it feels natural; you're literally rewiring how your brain responds [29:00] Join the Experiment for this episode; next episode: moving from single thoughts to the bigger stories we tell ourselves [29:30] Closing wisdom from Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett: "Human beings are not at the mercy of mythical emotion circuits buried deep within animalistic parts of our highly evolved brain: we are architects of our own experience.   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy?

We define "Letting Go" as the skill of loosening your grip on the thoughts and behaviors that keep you anchored to the past, resisting the present, or anxious about the future. And the goal isn't just to be more present, but to be less burdened and exhausted by the endless effort to edit what happened, control what's happening, and predict what's coming next. When you stop pouring energy into all of that, you get that energy back. We also describe letting go surrendering to what is or allowing things to be as they actually are. Importantly, letting go is not avoidance, withdrawal, or slamming the door and suppressing emotion. Letting go is closer to what psychologists call psychological flexibility and non-attachment, which means you engage fully with your experiences and feelings without being controlled by the outcomes. You still feel; you just choose what to do with the feeling instead of being driven by it. The big takeaway is that, again, this is a skill. It doesn't matter how terrible you think you are at letting go, it simply takes practice. In our episodes and experiments for this Element of "letting go," we'll cover four areas where the grip tends to be tightest: unhelpful thoughts and rumination, the bigger stories we tell ourselves, the myth that we need closure to move on, and maybe the hardest of all... letting go of control. Tune in for each episode to help you build your skill of letting go and recapture some energy and freedom.    About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible).   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Full transcript here   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy? Paradoxical effects of valuing happiness. doi.org/10.1037/a0022010 Morewedge, et al. (2010). Consuming experience: Why affective forecasters overestimate comparative value. 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.010  Moulding, et al. (2014). Part 2. They scare because we care: The relationship between obsessive intrusive thoughts and appraisals and control strategies across 15 cities. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.006 Nhat Hanh, T. (1998). Fragrant palm leaves: Journals, 1962–1966. Parallax Press. Palmer, P. J. (2016, April 27). The gift of presence, the perils of advice. The On Being Project. https://onbeing.org/blog/the-gift-of-presence-the-perils-of-advice/ Paumgarten, N. (2008, April 21). Up and then down: The lives of elevators. The New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/04/21/up-and-then-down Rachman, S. (1981). Part I. Unwanted intrusive cognitions. 10.1016/0146-6402(81)90007-2 Radomsky, et al. (2014). Part 1—You can run but you can't hide: Intrusive thoughts on six continents. Journal of Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders, 3(3), 269–279. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2013.09.002 Siegel, et al. (2018). Seeing what you feel: Affect drives visual perception of structurally neutral faces. 10.1177/0956797617741718 Singer, M. A. (2007). The untethered soul: The journey beyond yourself. New Harbinger Publications. Quoidbach, J., Gilbert, D. T., & Wilson, T. D. (2013). The end of history illusion. 10.1126/science.1229294 Wegner, et al. (1987). Paradoxical effects of thought suppression. 10.1037/0022-3514.53.1.5 Wilson & Gilbert. 2005). Affective forecasting: Knowing what to want. 10.1111/j.0963-7214.2005.00355.x   Questions this episode was made for: Q: What does "letting go" actually mean? Isn't it just telling yourself not to care? A: Letting go isn't about suppressing feelings, slamming doors, or becoming detached; it's closer to psychological flexibility and allowing, where you engage fully with your experiences without being controlled by the outcomes you're gripping. Importantly, letting go is a skill and this series will help you build it.    Q: Why is letting go so hard even when I know intellectually that holding on isn't helping me? A: We hear you! It's hard because your brain is doing exactly what it was wired to do; the tiger-and-tree-branch story we told in the episode illustrates it perfectly: We grip what feels familiar and known even when it's limiting us, because uncertain ground feels more dangerous than a bad branch; the good news is that letting go is a learnable skill, and the series ahead covers the four areas where the grip tends to be tightest.   Key moments: [00:00] A working definition of "letting go:" the skill of loosening your grip on thoughts and behaviors that keep you anchored to the past, resisting the present, or anxious about the future [01:00] The impact: being less burdened and exhausted by the effort to edit what happened, control what's happening, and predict what's coming next — and reclaiming that energy [03:00] Another frame: surrendering to what is; allowing things to be as they are and actually gives more agency [05:30] What Letting Go is NOT: avoidance, withdrawal, suppressing feelings, rejection, disengagement — it doesn't mean you stop caring [06:00] Letting Go enables psychological flexibility and non-attachment — engaging fully with experiences without grasping at outcomes [08:00] The tiger and tree branch story [10:00] Letting go of what feels familiar can feel scarier than staying stuck with something that isn't working [10:30] This is learnable; Joy Lab will work on it together [11:30] Four upcoming areas: (1) letting go of unhelpful thoughts. (2) Letting go of the bigger stories we tell ourselves. (3) The myth that we need closure. (4) Letting go of control.  [14:00] Closing wisdom from Anthony de Mello: "You don't have to add anything in order to be happy; you've got to drop something."   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here.