When Will They Learn?

After a bit of a sidestep into how we’re each using AI, Greg and Caiti jump into a conversation about ‘rote learning’ and a startling claim that it’s driving preservice teachers out of the profession. We argue that explicit teaching is more than just slide decks and explore how teacher training, shared curriculum and school-system structures shape successful implementation.The conversation then moves onto the brilliant Sold a Story podcast and some of the reactions to it, including the arguments being made against it. Greg and Caiti unpack some of these criticisms, discuss the difference between Direct Instruction (‘big DI’) and direct instruction (‘little DI’), and consider what the debate reveals about how evidence-informed teaching is represented and challenged.Finally, we discover that the fight against fascism might be simpler than we thought: apparently, all you need to do is not listen to podcasts. At least, that’s the case according to one rather interesting response to Sold a Story.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Why ‘rote learning’ mandate is driving new teachers away | The Adelaide* Rote is back. Or at least something very like it - EduResearch Matters* Sold a Story | Podcast* The argument against Sold a Story that proves why we need it | Filling the Pail Substack* Selling a story that’s lost the plot - by Benjamin Riley* Curios of the week #190 - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* Direct instruction is the American default | Michael PershanAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

What even is restorative practice? That’s a question that Greg and Caiti try to answer on this week’s episode of When Will They Learn? podcast. Spurred on by recent newspaper coverage on restorative practice, they delve into what it is and whether it could be effective - and what for. The conversation centres around consequences and whether ‘punitive’ measures are considered consequences in restorative practice models, and more broadly, what the role of consequences is within education. The conversation then moves onto a pretty bad newspaper headline that doesn’t at all reflect research conducted by Trisha Jha for the Centre for Independent Studies. We talk about what the newest paper by CIS covers, some of the media reaction to it, and learning styles - the neuromyth that never dies.Finally, we move onto talking about the decline of results in Wales and the reasons for this. We talk about curriculum, phonics and whether or not Wales is likely to follow on from the likes of England. And when we thought it was over, another detail in the ongoing mystery of ACPUE enters the chat.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Restorative justice: Why Vic parents and experts say school bullying fix is failing kids | Herald Sun* Curios of the week #188 - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* Caiti’s recent Substack: the convenient argument - by Caiti Wade - The Disruptive Educator* Nine in 10 teachers ‘getting it wrong’ in Australian classrooms / The other title | Herald Sun* Knowledge-is-Power-Pt-II.pdf | CIS paper | Trisha Jha* Trisha Jha’s Substack on Knowledge is Power Pt II* Wales has the UK’s worst school results by far. We investigated why | ITVNews* ACPUE Preprint Paper | Do the sources support the claims? Claim–source correspondence in an Australian evidence-intermediary reportAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti begin with ACPUE, who are back to reassure everyone that their work is absolutely not a targeted attack on AERO, despite it appearing as though it is exactly that. We look at the newest defence of their work and how that stands up against their own claims and the broader suite of future projects listed on their website. From there, we head to the UK (figuratively) and Lucy Powell’s address on the future of schooling, including proposals for new vocational pathways, all coming through the wonderfully optimistic-sounding Department for Hope. Unfortunately, the proposals and history of education reforms in the UK might suggest that there are lesser grounds for hope than one might hope with these new pathways.Then it’s back to Australia for a discussion of ten strawmen of the Science of Learning. We work through some of Penny Van Bergen’s terrific arguments against the made-up versions of the Science of Learning that are often seen posted all over media.And finally, just when we thought we were done, a university posts something that stops us in our tracks. Listen to find out more about the big shocker.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Academics behind new AERO critique say it’s no targeted take down — EducationHQ* Episode #16 A Load of ACPUE | When Will They Learn? Podcast | Caiti Wade and Greg Ashman* Attacking AERO the pedantic way | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* Who is behind the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education? | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* what’s the deal with acpue? | Caiti Wade, The Disruptive Educator* Projects · Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education | ACPUE* Deputy leader Lucy Powell addresses party conference - her speech in full - LabourList* Bringing back stupid - by Greg Ashman - Filling The Pail* The Ten Strawmen of the Science of Learning - EduResearch Matters | Penny Van Bergen* Find out what kind of learner you are | Open Universities* Learning Styles: Concepts and Evidence - PubMed | Pashler et al. Acknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

In this episode, Greg and Caiti start with a deceptively simple question: is the Australian Curriculum anti-boy - and more to the point, what even is anti-boy? We talk about the manosphere (again!) and the challenges schools and individual teachers face when teaching consent and respectful relationships. We also look at the role teacher bias can play in teaching these topics, and what effective teaching in this space might actually look like - and Caiti shares an example of where this has been taught well.From there, we head into the increasingly chaotic world of PISA and all the PISA cope taking up our social media feeds in the last week. That takes us to England, where we talk about why their PISA results are so significant, but also the discourse around this. And of course, Finland gets a mention, because - would you believe - we’re still talking about Finland’s results.Along the way, there are Twitter/X debates, LinkedIn articles, competing interpretations of the exact same data, and a bit of a side-step into behaviour in Australian classrooms - because we hadn’t opened enough cans of worms already.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* Is Australia’s school system ‘anti-boy’? | Amanda Keddie* PISA 2025 offers telling tale about what really constitutes a good education system — EducationHQ | Greg Ashman* PISA cope in the pages of tes magazine - by Greg Ashman* Our Kids Are Two Years Behind Where They Were in 2000. I’ve Been Looking for the Countries That Can Show Us the Way Back | Adam Voigt* The Prophet Motive - by Greg Ashman * Real Finnish Lessons | Gabriel Heller Sahlgren* Classrooms in Crisis: Australian teacher views on student behaviour - The Centre for Independent Studies | Blaise JosephAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

Disclaimer: The details of what is known about ACPUE were true at the time of recording this episode. Since recording and release, more details may have come to light. In this episode, Greg and Caiti talk about researchED Canberra - including propellors on planes, pies, and some of the main takeaways from the day, particularly focusing on what it actually takes to make schoolwide change happen. From there, we shift to Jenny Donovan’s keynote presentation on writing, which sends us directly into a conversation about AERO and the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education, or ACPUE. Who are ACPUE? Where did they come from? What does this have to do with AERO? We discuss all of these questions, and why these, and broader transparency and research integrity matter so much. Finally, we finish with a conversation about lethal mutations, drawing on an article by Dr Haili Hughes. We chat about what they are, how good ideas can become distorted and some common examples of lethal mutations in the classroom.Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socialsGet in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible.Greg AshmanGreg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW.Substack – Filling the PailLinkedIn – Greg AshmanX/Twitter – @greg_ashmanIf you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest.Caiti WadeCaiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science.Substack – The Disruptive EducatorLinkedIn – Caiti WadeX/Twitter – @caiti_wadeEpisode resources* No Capitals in the Capital: Caiti’s Summary of researchED Canberra | The Disruptive Educator* AERO’s School writing instruction framework resources* Brendan Lee on Different Types of Learning | Brendan Lee* Attacking AERO the pedantic way | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* Who is behind the Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education? | Greg Ashman, Filling the Pail* what’s the deal with acpue? | Caiti Wade, The Disruptive Educator* How students learn best: An overview of the evidence | by AERO | “A really great read” to quote Caiti* The Australian Centre for the Public Understanding of Education Website* Lethal Mutations in the Classroom: When Good Techniques Go Bad | Dr Haili Hughes SubstackAcknowledgement of countryWe would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com