Verticals: A Weekly Biz Show

What if the next billion-dollar AI company is hiding in a market most VCs think is too small?For decades, software investors have evaluated startups based on how much customers are willing to spend on technology. But AI is changing that equation.When software can actually perform work (and not just help people manage it), the opportunity extends far beyond traditional SaaS budgets.In this episode of Verticals, Luke Sophinos and Nic Poulos sit down with Joel Moreau, Co-Founder of Mallard Bay, a vertical SaaS and AI platform serving approximately 600 hunting outfitters, fishing charters, and outdoor experience operators across North America.It's an industry where some customers have never joined a Zoom call, where business owners spend their days in boats or trucks, and where traditional software has historically struggled to gain traction.But Joel sees an enormous opportunity.They discuss:- Why AI could make overlooked markets dramatically more valuable- How traditional SaaS budgets are giving way to labor and outcome-based pricing- Why low-tech industries may be ideal markets for vertical AI- How Mallard Bay reduced some customer onboarding times from weeks to 15 minutes- How founders can defend their businesses when competitors can build software faster than ever- How Facebook ads, connected TV, trade shows, and industry associations can unlock difficult-to-reach customers- How AI is changing travel discovery, search, and customer acquisitionJoel also shares the unconventional go-to-market tactics that helped Mallard Bay break into an industry where traditional software sales methods often fail.If you're building or investing in vertical AI, SaaS, or technology for traditionally underserved industries, this episode challenges how you think about market opportunity, pricing, distribution, and defensibility.🎟️ TICKETS DROPPED. Vertical Software Summit — 5-billion-dollar Vertical AI CEOs confirmed to speak. Snag a ticket before they're gone: https://verticalsaasgroup.com/conference👉 FOLLOW JOEL MOREAULINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-moreau-b69b791a6👉 FOLLOW LUKE SOPHINOSX ➡️ https://x.com/lukesophinosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukesophinos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://www.newsletter.lukesophinos.com/👉 FOLLOW NIC POULOSX ➡️ https://x.com/picnoulosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/npoulos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://insights.euclid.vc/🎬 TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Why AI is making small markets much bigger02:08 Building software for customers who barely use technology10:01 How to build a moat beyond your product18:40 Why AI is changing what customers will pay21:27 How AI changes the way founders calculate TAM23:20 Are VCs overlooking niche AI markets?28:49 Why venture capital is splitting into two markets36:29 How to sell software to low-tech industries39:49 Why connected TV ads are working for Mallard Bay43:20 The unconventional go-to-market playbook behind FareHarbor47:48 How AI is changing travel discovery and advertising51:06 Why human taste still matters in AI-generated marketing52:47 Creative customer acquisition and retention tacticsTOPICS1. Vertical AI & Small Market Opportunities2. AI Agents, Labor Automation & Outcome-Based Pricing3. Vertical SaaS, TAM & Venture Capital4. Go-to-Market Strategies for Low-Tech Industries5. AI Business Models, Defensibility & Market Expansion

What happens to your software company when a competitor can rebuild your entire product over a weekend?For vertical SaaS founders, that question is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore.In this episode of Verticals, Luke sits down with Coyne Lloyd, founding team member at SnapDocs, former partner at Fractal, and co-founder of multiple vertical software businesses, to explore what actually makes a software company defensible in the age of AI.At SnapDocs, Coyne helped build a business that could charge 5-10 times more than competing products, not because its code was impossible to replicate, but because competitors couldn't easily reproduce its marketplace, proprietary data, and network effects.Now, as AI makes software development dramatically cheaper, Coyne argues that founders need to rethink what they're actually building.They discuss:- Why AI is eroding software complexity as a competitive advantage- The thought experiment every vertical SaaS founder should run- How SnapDocs built defensibility through marketplace dynamics and proprietary data- Why hardware lock-in might be overrated- Why AI could make industry-specific operational knowledge more valuable- The flood of new competitors coming for vertical software markets- Coyne's bullish and bearish predictions for public vertical SaaS companiesIf you're building, operating, or investing in vertical SaaS or AI, this conversation offers a framework for figuring out which businesses will survive, and which could become more valuable than ever.🎟️ TICKETS DROPPED. Vertical Software Summit — 5-billion-dollar Vertical AI CEOs confirmed to speak. Snag a ticket before they're gone: https://verticalsaasgroup.com/conference👉 FOLLOW COYNE LLOYDLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/numismatist👉 FOLLOW LUKE SOPHINOSX ➡️ https://x.com/lukesophinosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukesophinos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://www.newsletter.lukesophinos.com/👉 FOLLOW NIC POULOSX ➡️ https://x.com/picnoulosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/npoulos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://insights.euclid.vc/🎬 TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro03:07 Why vertical SaaS founders are panicking about AI05:12 How SnapDocs charged 5-10x more than competitors08:43 The thought experiment every SaaS founder needs09:29 Why hardware lock-in is an overrated moat13:14 How SnapDocs built its marketplace and data moat19:09 Can proprietary AI workflows create process power?21:56 Why your biggest AI threat might not be OpenAI29:32 Should SaaS founders sell their proprietary data?32:33 Will AI destroy embedded software businesses?38:58 Can startups beat incumbent vertical SaaS companies?45:49 Why software graveyards are ideal rollup markets49:24 What Coyne got wrong about AI rollups52:14 Should vertical SaaS price on outcomes?54:48 The private vertical software company Coyne is bullish onTOPICS1. AI Moats, Proprietary Data & Network Effects2. Vertical SaaS, AI Disruption & Future of Software3. AI Startups, Vibe Coding & Software Competition4. AI Rollups, Embedded Software & Vertical AI Business Models

Voice AI is getting dramatically better.But simply adding an AI receptionist to your product isn't going to create a moat.In this episode of Verticals, Luke and Nic sit down with Mike Sharp, founder and CEO of DialStack, to unpack what the next wave of voice AI actually looks like, and why vertical software companies may have a unique opportunity to own it.Mike has spent roughly two decades at the intersection of telecom and SaaS. He previously co-founded Jive Communications, grew it to roughly $100 million in ARR, and later worked inside a healthcare software rollup with 17 brands. Those experiences led him to a simple conclusion: the phone is still one of the most important (and most underutilized) surfaces in vertical software. Mike explains how voice AI can evolve from answering missed calls to routing customers, completing transactional workflows, assisting employees in real time, automatically documenting conversations, and eventually becoming an entirely new interface for vertical software.In this episode, they discuss:-Why every vertical SaaS company should be thinking about voice AI-Where the real moat in voice actually lives-Why simply adding an AI receptionist isn't enough-The voice AI use cases that are actually working today-Why consumers hate some AI agents but love others-When AI should replace humans—and when it shouldn't🎟️ TICKETS DROPPED. Vertical Software Summit — 5-billion-dollar Vertical AI CEOs confirmed to speak. Snag a ticket before they're gone: https://verticalsaasgroup.com/conference👉 FOLLOW MICHAEL SHARPLINKEDIN ➡️ linkedin.com/in/mikesharp👉 FOLLOW LUKE SOPHINOSX ➡️ https://x.com/lukesophinosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukesophinos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://www.newsletter.lukesophinos.com/👉 FOLLOW NIC POULOSX ➡️ https://x.com/picnoulosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/npoulos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://insights.euclid.vc/🎬 TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro03:29 Why vertical SaaS should own the phone11:32 The voice AI use cases actually working today23:00 The overlooked opportunity in ambient voice AI28:32 Why voice AI is harder than text AI40:07 Why vertical SaaS hasn't fully embraced voice yet47:00 Why vertical-specific voice AI could win51:20 The most interesting voice AI use cases54:36 Where the next voice AI boom could happenTOPICS1. Voice AI & AI Agents2. Vertical AI & Vertical SaaS3. Embedded Voice & Telephony Infrastructure4. AI Agents, Ambient AI & Business Automation5. Proprietary Data, AI Moats & Systems of Record

Most SaaS founders think scaling sales means hiring more salespeople.Kevin Wilson thinks that's exactly how you get into trouble.Kevin is the CRO of Skimmer, the software platform used by thousands of pool service companies across the US. Before Skimmer, he helped scale multiple vertical software businesses from founder-led sales and pre-revenue stages to tens of millions in ARR.And along the way, he's developed a very different playbook for selling vertical software.In this episode of Verticals, Luke sits down with Kevin for a tactical masterclass on vertical go-to-market – where the traditional SaaS sales playbook works, where it breaks, and what founders should do instead.Kevin explains why he almost never recommends hiring 10 sales reps immediately after raising a round. Instead, he hires in groups of two or three, watches the underlying economics, and scales only when the existing motion proves it can support more people.But hiring is only part of the equation.Kevin breaks down exactly what he looks for in sales leaders and AEs, why industry experience is dramatically overrated in sales, and the interview tests he uses to identify great candidates before they join.They cover:-When a startup is actually ready to scale sales-Why founders shouldn't outsource go-to-market fit-Why Kevin always hires sales reps in groups of two or three-The metrics he watches before adding more headcount-Why founders should never completely leave the sales process-How to hire your first great Head of Sales-The four traits Kevin looks for in every AEIf you're a vertical SaaS or vertical AI founder trying to go from founder-led sales to a repeatable go-to-market machine, this episode is packed with tactics you can actually use.🎟️ TICKETS DROPPED. Vertical Software Summit — 5-billion-dollar Vertical AI CEOs confirmed to speak. Snag a ticket before they're gone: https://verticalsaasgroup.com/conference👉 FOLLOW KEVIN WILSONLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwilsonsales👉 FOLLOW LUKE SOPHINOSX ➡️ https://x.com/lukesophinosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukesophinos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://www.newsletter.lukesophinos.com/👉 FOLLOW NIC POULOSX ➡️ https://x.com/picnoulosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/npoulos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://insights.euclid.vc/🎬 TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro01:53 Kevin's path from banking to vertical SaaS06:59 When are you actually ready to scale sales?08:41 Why hiring 10 AEs at once almost never works10:31 Why founders should never completely leave sales16:07 How to hire a great Head of Sales25:21 The 4 traits Kevin looks for in every sales rep29:16 Why industry veterans often fail in sales34:40 Can you spot a bad sales hire in one week?37:27 How to sell into a small, finite vertical market42:32 The biggest AI opportunity in sales right now51:32 Kevin's AI go-to-market tech stackTOPICS1. Vertical SaaS Go-To-Market & Sales Strategy2. SaaS Sales Hiring, Scaling & Leadership3. Founder-Led Sales & Go-To-Market Fit4. Vertical SaaS Outbound, ICP & Demand Generation5. AI Sales Automation, CRM & RevOps

Everyone was predicting a SaaSpocalypse.Now the data is coming in... and SaaS isn't dead.Public software has rebounded, vertical software has held up relatively well, infrastructure is surging, and consumption-based businesses are benefiting directly from the explosion of AI usage.So Luke and Nic are asking a different question: What happens next?In this episode of Verticals, there’s no guest. Instead, Luke and Nic debate the emerging battle taking place inside every software vertical.On one side are the legacy systems of record that have spent years building distribution, customer relationships and enormous proprietary datasets.On the other are a new generation of vertical AI startups moving at incredible speed, alongside AI-native services companies that can quietly enter through the back door by doing the work incumbents traditionally left to their customers.Get ready for this debate:-Why the SaaSpocalypse may have been overblown-Which software companies are actually benefiting from AI-The 4 strategies startups can use to attack SaaS incumbents-Why AI-native services could become a Trojan horse into the system of record-Whether incumbents need to own the “ChatGPT for their industry”🎟️ TICKETS DROPPED. Vertical Software Summit — 5-billion-dollar Vertical AI CEOs confirmed to speak. Snag a ticket before they're gone: https://verticalsaasgroup.com/conference👉 FOLLOW LUKE SOPHINOSX ➡️ https://x.com/lukesophinosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukesophinos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://www.newsletter.lukesophinos.com/👉 FOLLOW NIC POULOSX ➡️ https://x.com/picnoulosLINKEDIN ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/npoulos/NEWSLETTER ➡️ https://insights.euclid.vc/🎬 TIMESTAMPS:00:00 The SaaSpocalypse is over... now what?02:02 What the software market data actually says05:05 How AI startups can attack legacy SaaS10:20 Why AI-native services are such a powerful wedge16:16 What should legacy SaaS CEOs do right now?21:29 Can incumbents actually reinvent their products?23:39 Is the vertical AI M&A wave finally coming?25:14 Why AI acquisitions could accelerate27:12 How startups can position themselves to be acquiredTOPICS1. Vertical AI vs. Vertical SaaS2. AI Startups & Legacy Software Incumbents3. AI-Native Services & Systems of Record4. SaaS M&A & Vertical AI Acquisitions5. AI Distribution, Data Moats & Specialized Models