Second Order Podcast

Karo Aghavelyan didn't plan a career in commercial real estate. He landed at JLL after a recession-era job search, armed with political science degrees and design skills he'd taught himself in the Armenian military. Now he leads the national creative team at Savills, one of the world's largest commercial real estate firms. In this conversation with Nate, he talks about how patience, client service, and the willingness to say yes before you're ready became the through-line of an unconventional career.Key takeaways:Hard work and a "figure it out" mindset compound over time, even when the skills aren't there yetClient experience is as important as creative quality -- people come back because of how working with you feels, not just what you deliverAI is the biggest current challenge for creative teams: it threatens job security while simultaneously unlocking ideas that would never have made it off the whiteboardGood leadership means calming the storm, not adding to it -- stepping in with presence, not reactivityPatience is a learnable skill, and it changes how you leadConnect with Karo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karo-aghavelyan-aa140113/I hope you enjoy this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.– Nate and the Second Order podcast teamConnect with Nate Dinet on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nathanieldinetVisit The Step Manager website here: https://www.thestepmanager.com#secondorder #natedinet #thestepmanager #operationspodcast #deliveryoperations #founderbottleneck #scalingoperations #techstartups #saasoperations #businessoperations #operationalexcellence #startupscaling #revenueoperations #businessleadership #podcastforentrepreneursSecond Order is a podcast for technology founders, COOs, and operations leaders who want to understand what actually happens between closing a deal and delivering on it. Hosted by Nate Dinet of The Step Manager, each episode features honest conversations with CEOs, heads of business operations, and senior executives at SaaS companies, AI-native startups, and tech services firms - people who have built delivery systems under pressure and lived to tell the story.The podcast sits at the intersection of operational execution and company growth, covering the challenges most business podcasts skip over: delivery chaos at scale, the founder bottleneck, bespoke traps that erode margins, and the ongoing question of when to invest in technology versus people. If you're scaling a technology business and the gap between selling and delivering is where things get messy, Second Order is where you'll find the frameworks, stories, and hard-won insight to close that gap.Series Keywords (to be added to the channel):Second Order podcast, Nate Dinet, The Step Manager, delivery operations, operational scaling, SaaS operations, founder bottleneck, technology startup podcast, business operations leadership, revenue operations, scaling delivery, operational execution, AI startup operations, boutique consulting operations, operational architecture, post-sale delivery, Sprint Zero, technology services operations, COO podcast, operations podcast for founders

What does it really take to build a company culture that outlasts the founder's presence in the room? In this episode, Nate sits down with Patrick Smith, serial entrepreneur and CEO of Zally, a San Francisco-based AI company building a foundation model for behavioural intelligence. Patrick shares how he went from launching two businesses at age ten in Norway to navigating eleven early failures, and what those hard-won lessons taught him about leading with purpose. He opens up about Zally's unconventional approach to onboarding, including a 120-page founder stack that every new employee reads within their first two weeks, and why he believes true culture only reveals itself when the founder leaves the room.The conversation digs into the evolution of Zally's core values from Spark to Ask and why Patrick chose Grit as a defining principle despite pushback from the boardroom. Patrick also talks about building in stealth as an AI company, the importance of asking for help at every level of an organisation, and why he treats himself like an athlete to stay at peak performance as a founder. For anyone building a team, navigating startup life, or simply curious about what it takes to build a company that could change the world, this is a conversation worth your full attention.Key takeaways:Culture is set by the founder but owned by the team the real test is what happens when the founder leaves the roomA founder stack (a documented, evolving vision document) gives new hires clarity and gives the team a shared language to build fromCompany values should evolve as the organisation grows don't be afraid to retire a value that no longer fitsAsking for help is not a weakness; it is a core skill for founders and should be modelled from the top downTreating yourself like an athlete early mornings, exercise, diet, no alcohol directly impacts your ability to lead clearlyFailure in the US startup ecosystem is viewed as a credential; in the Nordics and UK, it takes longer for the culture around you to accept and move onBuilding in stealth as an AI company requires a different communication strategy sharing the journey, not the product, is how Zally built its audience and attracted talentConnect with Patrick Smith on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/patrickmoesmith/Visit Zally at: zally.comIf this episode resonated with you, share it with a founder or leader in your network who could use the perspective. And don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review — it helps more people find the show.I hope you enjoy this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.– Nate and the Second Order podcast teamConnect with Nate Dinet on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nathanieldinetVisit The Step Manager website here: https://www.thestepmanager.com#secondorder #natedinet #thestepmanager #operationspodcast #deliveryoperations #founderbottleneck #scalingoperations #techstartups #saasoperations #businessoperations #operationalexcellence #startupscaling #revenueoperations #businessleadership #podcastforentrepreneursSecond Order is a podcast for technology founders, COOs, and operations leaders who want to understand what actually happens between closing a deal and delivering on it. Hosted by Nate Dinet of The Step Manager, each episode features honest conversations with CEOs, heads of business operations, and senior executives at SaaS companies, AI-native startups, and tech services firms - people who have built delivery systems under pressure and lived to tell the story.The podcast sits at the intersection of operational execution and company growth, covering the challenges most business podcasts skip over: delivery chaos at scale, the founder bottleneck, bespoke traps that erode margins, and the ongoing question of when to invest in technology versus people. If you're scaling a technology business and the gap between selling and delivering is where things get messy, Second Order is where you'll find the frameworks, stories, and hard-won insight to close that gap.Series Keywords (to be added to the channel):Second Order podcast, Nate Dinet, The Step Manager, delivery operations, operational scaling, SaaS operations, founder bottleneck, technology startup podcast, business operations leadership, revenue operations, scaling delivery, operational execution, AI startup operations, boutique consulting operations, operational architecture, post-sale delivery, Sprint Zero, technology services operations, COO podcast, operations podcast for founders

Sahil Patel has been a CEO twice. The first time, at ER Express, he spent ten years building a health tech company from nothing, navigating misaligned investors, watching competitors outspend him, and quietly falling apart while the business plateaued. He dry-heaved on a pavement outside his house. He stopped caring about his own birthday. He got help. Eventually, he got an exit. The second time, at Spiralyze, he walked in and immediately had to do a layoff.None of that is on his LinkedIn.In this conversation, Sahil talks about what it actually costs to lead something, the difference between looking successful and being successful, and why the valleys are where the real work happens. He covers the founder-CEO dynamic, the psychological toll of tying your identity to a company, why moderate success can be the enemy of more success, and how a veterinary ER in a pandemic accidentally doubled Spiralyze's addressable market. He also gets into what Spiralyze does, why their performance-based pricing model changes the client relationship, and where AI can and genuinely cannot replace human judgment in conversion rate optimisation.Key takeaways from this episode:Why taking too much early capital created a cap table problem that took years to fully understandWhat it looks like when a founder CEO brings in a non-founder CEO, and how the division of responsibility actually works in practiceThe warning signs of burnout that your partner might see before you doWhy success is a combination of hard work, timing, and luck, and why staying alive long enough matters more than people admitHow a cold email in 2020 turned into an exit, and what the eighteen months before it actually looked likeWhy LLMs only know the winning A/B tests, and what that means for AI's limits in CROConnect with Sahil Patel:https://www.linkedin.com/in/sahilanamipatel/https://www.spiralyze.comIf you've ever looked at someone's career from the outside and assumed it came easy, this one's worth your time.I hope you enjoy this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.– Nate and the Second Order podcast teamConnect with Nate Dinet on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nathanieldinetVisit The Step Manager website here: https://www.thestepmanager.com#secondorder #natedinet #thestepmanager #operationspodcast #deliveryoperations #founderbottleneck #scalingoperations #techstartups #saasoperations #businessoperations #operationalexcellence #startupscaling #revenueoperations #businessleadership #podcastforentrepreneursSecond Order is a podcast for technology founders, COOs, and operations leaders who want to understand what actually happens between closing a deal and delivering on it. Hosted by Nate Dinet of The Step Manager, each episode features honest conversations with CEOs, heads of business operations, and senior executives at SaaS companies, AI-native startups, and tech services firms - people who have built delivery systems under pressure and lived to tell the story.The podcast sits at the intersection of operational execution and company growth, covering the challenges most business podcasts skip over: delivery chaos at scale, the founder bottleneck, bespoke traps that erode margins, and the ongoing question of when to invest in technology versus people. If you're scaling a technology business and the gap between selling and delivering is where things get messy, Second Order is where you'll find the frameworks, stories, and hard-won insight to close that gap.Series Keywords (to be added to the channel):Second Order podcast, Nate Dinet, The Step Manager, delivery operations, operational scaling, SaaS operations, founder bottleneck, technology startup podcast, business operations leadership, revenue operations, scaling delivery, operational execution, AI startup operations, boutique consulting operations, operational architecture, post-sale delivery, Sprint Zero, technology services operations, COO podcast, operations podcast for founders

Anthony Argenziano has spent 25 years leading product teams at companies ranging from two-person startups to Amazon and eBay, watching the same problem repeat itself at every scale: the hardest part of building software has never been the building. It's the knowing what to build in the first place.That question is the foundation of Velocity, the product management platform Anthony describes the way Bob Marley talked about Redemption Song. He's been writing it his whole career. In this episode, he and Nate dig into what it actually means to be a great product manager, why discovery discipline breaks down the moment execution speeds up, and how agentic AI is reshaping the PM role from the inside out.Key takeaways from this episode:Why domain expertise is overrated in PM hiring, and what great product people actually have in commonThe two biggest pain points Anthony experienced across every organisation he worked in, and how they became the backbone of VelocityWhy building software is now essentially commoditised, and why that makes the discovery problem more urgent, not lessHow Velocity shifted its positioning when the competitive landscape changed overnight from incumbent PM tools to in-house AI stacksWhy users can't tell you what they want, and why that's a feature of the discovery process, not a flawThe discipline of revisiting strategy before chasing every interesting signalConnect with Anthony Argenziano:https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonyargenziano/https://www.velocitypm.aiIf you've ever shipped something only to realise it solved the wrong problem, this conversation is the one to revisit.I hope you enjoy this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.– Nate and the Second Order podcast teamConnect with Nate Dinet on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nathanieldinetVisit The Step Manager website here: https://www.thestepmanager.com#secondorder #natedinet #thestepmanager #operationspodcast #deliveryoperations #founderbottleneck #scalingoperations #techstartups #saasoperations #businessoperations #operationalexcellence #startupscaling #revenueoperations #businessleadership #podcastforentrepreneursSecond Order is a podcast for technology founders, COOs, and operations leaders who want to understand what actually happens between closing a deal and delivering on it. Hosted by Nate Dinet of The Step Manager, each episode features honest conversations with CEOs, heads of business operations, and senior executives at SaaS companies, AI-native startups, and tech services firms - people who have built delivery systems under pressure and lived to tell the story.The podcast sits at the intersection of operational execution and company growth, covering the challenges most business podcasts skip over: delivery chaos at scale, the founder bottleneck, bespoke traps that erode margins, and the ongoing question of when to invest in technology versus people. If you're scaling a technology business and the gap between selling and delivering is where things get messy, Second Order is where you'll find the frameworks, stories, and hard-won insight to close that gap.Series Keywords (to be added to the channel):Second Order podcast, Nate Dinet, The Step Manager, delivery operations, operational scaling, SaaS operations, founder bottleneck, technology startup podcast, business operations leadership, revenue operations, scaling delivery, operational execution, AI startup operations, boutique consulting operations, operational architecture, post-sale delivery, Sprint Zero, technology services operations, COO podcast, operations podcast for founders

What does it really take to bring breakthrough technology from the lab to the market?In this episode of the Second Order Podcast, Nate sits down with Nicholas Grundish, VP of Battery Technology at EnergyX, to explore the realities of developing next-generation battery technology.Nick shares why promising technologies like lithium-sulfur and solid-state batteries can remain “five years away” for years, and why scientific breakthroughs don’t always follow predictable timelines. They discuss the challenges of scaling lithium metal technology, building supply chains, balancing R&D with commercial realities, and getting customer feedback before investing heavily in the wrong solution.The conversation also explores the difference between scientific thinking and startup decision-making, the importance of communication, and how second-order thinking can help founders avoid costly and avoidable mistakes.If you’re an entrepreneur, startup founder, scientist, engineer, or simply interested in the future of energy and battery technology, this episode offers a fascinating look at what happens behind the scenes when innovation moves from concept to commercialization.**In this episode, we discuss:**• The future of lithium-sulfur and solid-state batteries• Why battery breakthroughs can take longer than expected• The challenges of scaling new technology• Lithium metal and next-generation battery development• R&D versus engineering and commercialization• Customer feedback and the Lean Startup approach• How scientists make decisions with incomplete information• The importance of communication in technical fields• Second-order thinking and smarter capital allocationDon’t forget to like, subscribe, and follow the Second Order Podcast for more conversations with founders, innovators, and industry leaders.#BatteryTechnology #EnergyX #Entrepreneurship #Startups #Innovation #SecondOrderThinking #RAndD #CleanEnergy #Lithium #BatteryInnovation:::I hope you enjoy this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.– Nate and the Second Order podcast teamConnect with Nate Dinet on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nathanieldinetVisit The Step Manager website here: https://www.thestepmanager.com#secondorder #natedinet #thestepmanager #operationspodcast #deliveryoperations #founderbottleneck #scalingoperations #techstartups #saasoperations #businessoperations #operationalexcellence #startupscaling #revenueoperations #businessleadership #podcastforentrepreneursSecond Order is a podcast for technology founders, COOs, and operations leaders who want to understand what actually happens between closing a deal and delivering on it. Hosted by Nate Dinet of The Step Manager, each episode features honest conversations with CEOs, heads of business operations, and senior executives at SaaS companies, AI-native startups, and tech services firms - people who have built delivery systems under pressure and lived to tell the story.The podcast sits at the intersection of operational execution and company growth, covering the challenges most business podcasts skip over: delivery chaos at scale, the founder bottleneck, bespoke traps that erode margins, and the ongoing question of when to invest in technology versus people. If you're scaling a technology business and the gap between selling and delivering is where things get messy, Second Order is where you'll find the frameworks, stories, and hard-won insight to close that gap.Series Keywords (to be added to the channel):Second Order podcast, Nate Dinet, The Step Manager, delivery operations, operational scaling, SaaS operations, founder bottleneck, technology startup podcast, business operations leadership, revenue operations, scaling delivery, operational execution, AI startup operations, boutique consulting operations, operational architecture, post-sale delivery, Sprint Zero, technology services operations, COO podcast, operations podcast for founders