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“Competence is not a priority”
Update: 2024-11-19
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Nicolle Wallace is joined by Rep. Robert Garcia, Maya Wiley, Frank Figliuzzi, John Heilemann, Charlie Sykes, Maya Wiley, Angelo Carusone, John Brennan, and David Jolly.
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Transcript
00:00:00
MSNBC Films presents The Sing Sing Chronicles, a new four-part series from NBC News Studios,
00:00:08
featuring decades of investigative reporting from date-line producer Dan Slevia
00:00:13
that exposes the injustices of wrongful convictions.
00:00:16
"I spent half my life in prison, and that's time we can't get back."
00:00:21
The Sing Sing Chronicles, first two episodes premiere Saturday at 9 p.m. Eastern, on MSNBC.
00:00:28
[music]
00:00:30
Hi everyone, four-clock in New York,
00:00:38
an alarming series of incidents beginning in the immediate aftermath
00:00:42
of Donald Trump's election victory is compounding the fear.
00:00:47
Fear that many in this country have about their futures,
00:00:50
and it's sparking a conversation about how best to push back against a potential wave of hate.
00:00:57
The FBI is reporting over the weekend that a series of threatening text messages
00:01:02
were sent to high school students and people in Latino and LGBTQ communities.
00:01:07
FBI saying this, quote, "Some recipients reported being told they were selected for deportation,
00:01:14
or to report to a re-education camp.
00:01:16
The messages have also been reported as being received via email communication.
00:01:22
That is, after text messages were sent to black Americans, in more than a dozen states
00:01:27
after the election, the New York Times reports that the messages, quote, "tolled them.
00:01:32
They had been selected to pick cotton and ordered them to report for slavery.
00:01:37
Some of the messages also made a reference to Mr. Trump.
00:01:41
Some even claimed to be from his administration.
00:01:44
But a campaign spokesperson said it had absolutely nothing to do with those text messages.
00:01:50
The New York Times adds this reporting, quote, "Message-anistic social media posts also surged
00:01:56
in the aftermath of the election, with phrases like, 'Your body, my choice,'
00:02:01
and get back to the kitchen proliferating online."
00:02:05
The threats are not happening in a vacuum, of course.
00:02:08
They come at a time when Latino communities are fearing what could happen
00:02:12
if the Trump administration follows through on those promised mass deportations.
00:02:18
The LGBTQ+ community right now fearing a rollback of legal protections and rights
00:02:24
on the part of the Trump administration and maybe even the Supreme Court.
00:02:28
Not to mention, this is a moment in which many black Americans fear a rollback of civil rights.
00:02:34
Add to that, a moment in which women are anticipating, almost girding,
00:02:39
for a further erosion of their bodily autonomy in a post-dobs America.
00:02:45
All of it naturally leading to a question that millions of Americans have a right to ask.
00:02:51
Which is this, what does the resistance against hate in America look like,
00:02:56
if many of the institutions that have traditionally been a bulwark and protecting Americans
00:03:02
are now in the hands of the Trump administration?
00:03:04
For example, would a Trump Justice Department, led by an Attorney General Matt Gates,
00:03:09
be active in combating hate?
00:03:12
Would it do the same kind of job that Biden administration has done?
00:03:15
On that, the AP reports this, quote, "Justice Department employees were already
00:03:20
preparing for a major shake-up to the agency's agenda around civil rights and other matters
00:03:25
before Trump settled on gates to be the nation's top federal law enforcement officer."
00:03:30
Donald Trump has also chosen "bending car" to lead the Federal Communications Commission.
00:03:37
That agency responsible for the regulation of the media, among other things.
00:03:42
On that, the Washington Post reports this, quote, "Car wrote in the FCC section of Project 2025
00:03:49
that big tech posed a threat through its attempts to drive diverse political viewpoints
00:03:54
from the digital town square."
00:03:56
In other words, car is peddling the notion that conservatives are the ones being silenced
00:04:03
on social media platforms.
00:04:04
And many here that he will advocate for changes that would allow for even more hate speech
00:04:11
to flourish on the Internet.
00:04:12
Once again, from the Washington Post, quote, "cars appointment through criticism from left-leaning groups,
00:04:18
including the chamber of progress," which posted on Acts on Sunday,
00:04:22
"that if he were confirmed it would be up to Democrats to defend a content moderation
00:04:27
protection policy that keeps the Internet from becoming a cesspool."
00:04:31
Countering hate in the next chapter of the Trump era is where we begin today.
00:04:37
Civil Rights Attorney and President of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights
00:04:41
Maya Weiles here, also joining us, former Assistant Director of Counterintelligence at the FBI,
00:04:47
MSNBC National Security Analyst, Frank Figuizis here.
00:04:51
But we're going to first bring in Democratic Congressman from California, Robert Garcia.
00:04:55
He sits on the House Oversight and Homeland Security Committee's Congressman.
00:04:59
Thank you for being here.
00:05:00
What is your understanding or have you had access to any
00:05:04
briefings from the FBI about the hate messages sent via text to an email?
00:05:10
Well, those conversations are actually just starting.
00:05:14
It is incredibly concerning, especially to House Democrats here in Congress.
00:05:19
I'll leave us on Oversight on Homeland Security.
00:05:21
These are threats that are being sent, not just to LGBTQ young people,
00:05:26
but to Black Americans, to women.
00:05:28
And it should be very concerning to all of us.
00:05:30
We don't know where these threats are exactly coming from.
00:05:33
We do know that these phone numbers,
00:05:36
these cell phones, these emails are being purchased and mass,
00:05:39
and then these horrific messages are actually being sent.
00:05:42
But what I also think is important for us to remember and to know,
00:05:45
is that when you have a candidate for president that spends and is spent the last couple of years
00:05:51
saying that immigrants are poisoning the blood of this country,
00:05:53
or demeaning women, or demeaning working people,
00:05:57
this is the result that you're going to get.
00:05:59
Is there are people that are now in power that hateful messages actually are not going to
00:06:05
be pushed back in this country, that somehow people can get away with this type of behavior
00:06:09
and harming others.
00:06:10
So it's very important at this moment that yes, we had an election,
00:06:14
and yes, a lot of us are feeling defeated about the moment.
00:06:18
We have to push back and fight against this,
00:06:21
and in no circumstance should we allow people to receive these types of messages
00:06:25
and not investigate it.
00:06:26
I mean, I'm thinking about the efforts.
00:06:28
And I remember them being somewhat bipartisan to confront some social media
00:06:33
companies about the impact on young girls of some of the hideous content online.
00:06:38
I mean, would you rule out trying to form a bipartisan effort
00:06:42
to at least get to the bottom of where the hateful messages are coming from,
00:06:46
which so far have targeted black Americans, Latino Americans,
00:06:49
LGBTQ+ Americans, and females?
00:06:52
I mean, 100%. We would love to see Republicans come to the table
00:06:58
in a bipartisan way and investigate where this is actually coming from.
00:07:01
I mean, so far, there has been zero to little interest.
00:07:04
I mean, at this point, Republicans in the House want to do whatever Donald Trump
00:07:08
commands them to do.
00:07:09
And so this is very dangerous.
00:07:11
It's important to know that we are seeing also young people, young LGBTQ+ people,
00:07:16
who are literally scared.
00:07:18
We're seeing much more need to also support them.
00:07:21
We're seeing call lines, a suicide hotline, shoot up.
00:07:24
We're seeing our organizations on the ground seeing more and more people
00:07:28
actually visiting them, calling desperately seeking help and advice.
00:07:31
And so this is actually having an impact on real lives.
00:07:34
So yes, Republicans should come to the table and work with us on this issues.
00:07:37
But unfortunately, I'm also not holding my breath.
00:07:39
They seem very uninterested to do anything productive at this moment,
00:07:42
except for a help Donald Trump.
00:07:44
Let me read the reporting on what you're talking about, Congressman.
00:07:47
From the Washington Post, quote calls to LGBTQ+ crisis lines surged,
00:07:52
following Trump's election day victory, with callers expressing feelings of isolation.
00:07:57
As well as fears that they would lose access to gender-affirming health care
00:08:01
or experience physical violence because of their gender or sexual identity.
00:08:05
The Trevor Project, a nonprofit focused on support and suicide prevention
00:08:09
among LGBTQ+ youth, said a third of its crisis calls immediately before and after election day.
00:08:16
We're from LGBTQ+ youth who are also racial and ethnic minorities.
00:08:24
What can you do? What can folks do to protect people again who are the most vulnerable right now?
00:08:33
I would say, and I've actually talked to some LGBTQ+ youth groups.
00:08:39
I gave myself, I told them and I told others that we're here to protect and to fight for you.
00:08:45
And that yes, this is a very difficult moment.
00:08:47
But what we're not going to do is somehow discard our belief in civil rights and the rights of all people.
00:08:54
We're not going to somehow not fight and stand up for trans families and young people and gay people.
00:08:59
These are core values that we should have not just as Democrats but as good human beings and good people.
00:09:05
And so while the other party now in the majority want to attack and belittle and bully,
00:09:11
I think it's really important that at this moment that we stand up for these groups.
00:09:15
And by the way, when you're attacking gay kids, trans kids, these are children.
00:09:19
These are kids that we're talking about with families. They should not be bullied, they should not be
00:09:24
attacked. And everyone of good conscience and good oil should be standing up for them.
00:09:28
How what is the plan to stand up for your own colleague who's been targeted by Republican
00:09:33
Congresswoman Nancy Mays? Let me read the my colleagues reporting here at NBC News about this.
00:09:39
Congresswoman Nancy Mays said Tuesday that her effort to ban trans gender women from using
00:09:44
female bathrooms at the U.S. Capitol is a direct response to the election of Sarah McBride who
00:09:50
is set to be the first openly transgender person in Congress. She was asked by reporters Tuesday if
00:09:55
the move was in response to McBride quote yes and absolutely and then some Mays told reporters
00:10:02
adding quote I'm absolutely 100% gonna stand in the way of any man who wants to be in a women's
00:10:09
restroom in our locker rooms in our changing rooms I will be there fighting you every step of the way.
00:10:15
So that's happening up there. What is the plan? I honestly first I am disgusted by those
00:10:26
file comments and these efforts. Why we are focusing on singling out one member, one new member,
00:10:33
a freshman member of this body now and why we're policing that person and where they use the
00:10:39
restroom is shameful. We should push back on this disgusting rhetoric and actions. Sarah McBride has
00:10:46
a support of our entire caucus and clearly of the people of Delaware who sent her here to represent
00:10:52
them. We should allow her to legislate into this attacking of a member I think is gross and
00:10:59
we should bother us also that this is the first thing that this house majority is focused on.
00:11:04
They're not talking about lowering the cost of groceries. They're not talking about making
00:11:07
housing more affordable. They're policing where someone uses the restroom and unfortunately this
00:11:12
is the kind of vile behavior that we should expect from them and hopefully we can just continue
00:11:16
to stand up and not allow our values to move backwards. So we stand 100%. Behind Sarah she's going
00:11:24
to be an incredible legislator. Congressman Robert Garcia thank you for starting us off today on
00:11:29
all this. Thank you. Frank Figgluzzi let me come back to you on the text messages and we'll make
00:11:37
our way back to Nancy Mays in a second. What could be the different theories of the case
00:11:45
that would explain that after the messages were received and a lot of parents of kids got letters
00:11:51
from their schools warning families that these messages were out there. I mean they were targeted
00:11:57
at kids, not adults or they didn't I guess they didn't spare kids. What could be going on that there's
00:12:06
not any update or information on the investigation. This is going to take some work Nicole you may remember
00:12:15
gosh almost a year ago the swatting incidents that were targeting so many people and you know
00:12:22
people were scratching their heads. Where's this coming from? Who's got their hands on home phone
00:12:26
numbers and addresses of these people being targeted by swatting? Well low and behold after
00:12:31
months of investigation guess what the first arrests that were made were people from outside the
00:12:36
United States and Eastern Europe. So this takes a while. So what does the investigation look like?
00:12:41
Who is buying if anyone? Large lists of phone numbers. Who's getting their a hold of say black
00:12:50
fraternity numbers at colleges? How about students who are Latino and and their list? Where do those
00:12:58
lists appear? And then you've got to say where are the calls coming from are anonymizers being used
00:13:05
almost certainly. So there's a counter intelligence question here is this Russia or a foreign adversary
00:13:12
saying you know what we're not done with you. Yes our guy won the election but our our main
00:13:17
purpose is to divide and so chaos and boy we have a track record of doing that racially. That's
00:13:22
particularly the Russian ammo with us. And so you got to figure this out. Is it coming from inside
00:13:28
the house? Outside the house. What are the violations that prosecutors might might use? Yes this could
00:13:33
easily be a hate crime. Yes this could even be interstate communication of a threat. A threat to
00:13:39
kidnap and harm if you're telling people you're being rounded up tomorrow at this time for slavery
00:13:45
or you're going to report to deportation camps. You could argue this is a federal interstate
00:13:50
communication of a threat and add a hate crime to it because it's targeting ethnicity and race
00:13:55
or sexual orientation or perceived orientation. All of that covered by federal law or on the other
00:14:00
end of the spectrum. Is this somehow merely an FCC violation involving spam and text? I think that
00:14:08
DOJs if they can are going to go high on on this one but it's going to take some time.
00:14:12
And is it the kind of investigation that require the leadership of DOJ to be interested in
00:14:18
getting to the bottom of it Frank? Let me cut to the chase on it where I think you're going. If this
00:14:26
investigation goes beyond January 20th I don't have high hopes that this will be taken seriously.
00:14:32
Let me show you what Matt Gates said about defunding agencies like the FBI and DOJ
00:14:42
before he was tapped to lead DOJ. Yeah. Seems like every time I turn around they're engaged in
00:14:50
surveillance or list building or monitoring and I don't care if it takes every second of our time
00:14:58
and every ounce of our energy. We either get this government back on our side or we defund and get
00:15:04
rid of abolish the FBI CDC ATF DOJ. Every last one of them if they do not come to heal.
00:15:14
So Matt Gates are in his own words. We either get the government back on our side or we defund
00:15:23
and get rid of the FBI, the CDC, the ATF and the DOJ. Every last one of them if they do not come
00:15:29
to heal. What do you think? Our side. You know our public institutions of government, a federal
00:15:39
government or any government supposed to be on the side of the people, all of the people.
00:15:45
That is exactly why we had a civil rights movement abolish slavery, allowed women to vote
00:15:52
and said that people get to choose their own identities and one of the things that we won in
00:15:57
winning passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which my institution, the Leadership Conference,
00:16:03
worked to pass, was so that the Department of Justice of these United States would have a civil
00:16:11
rights division that would protect all of our people. And so the very fact that we have anyone
00:16:20
who has been nominated to head of federal agency is essentially saying there's only one side,
00:16:27
there's only our side or theirs. It's exactly the kind of rhetoric from any politician or any
00:16:33
person in power that becomes a kind of poison of words that poisons the air, reaches and infects
00:16:42
other people and gives permission, permission from what we have heard from the Department of Homeland
00:16:47
Security about fears about what we call stochastic terror, the folks who sort of feel that they are
00:16:55
legitimately engaging in an act when they engage in a hate crime, as well as frankly from Project 2025,
00:17:04
which will now be given full permission to take over organs of the federal government and undermine
00:17:12
the missions of those entities, including the FCC that's supposed to help make sure that the ways in
00:17:18
which we communicate with each other work for us and to our better angels. So I just think the very
00:17:24
rhetoric itself and anybody who's running government, who's purporting that it have a side, is essentially
00:17:31
telling us it is not on the side of every American. Um, my Wellay, we're going to ask you to stick
00:17:38
around. Frank Figglesy, you are coming back at the top of the next hour. Thank you for starting us
00:17:43
off this hour when we come back. Donald Trump choosing another television personality to join his
00:17:50
incoming administration, the very latest and a long list of somewhat familiar faces joining him
00:17:55
in Washington this time. Plus a whirlwind of a day as it relates to the ethics investigation into
00:18:00
Matt Gaetz. New developments as Donald Trump starts to press and personally call senators urging
00:18:07
them to approve his selection to be Attorney General. And later in the broadcast, remember when Trump
00:18:13
was federally charged with keeping classified documents at his club at Mar-a-Lago. Well, today we learned
00:18:19
he is getting intelligence briefings again. We'll bring you all those stories and more when dead
00:18:24
then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
00:18:31
MSNBC's Lorenzo Donald. I have an obligation to find a way of telling this story that is fresh,
00:18:40
that has angles that haven't been used in the course of the day, to bring my experience working
00:18:46
in the Senate, working in journalism, to try to make sense of what has happened and help you
00:18:52
make sense of what it means to you. The last word with Lorenzo Donald, week nights at 10 p.m.
00:18:58
eastern on MSNBC. What's causing the rise in book banning? On my podcast, Velshiban Book Club,
00:19:06
I speak with authors of banned books to try and find out. I think what they're really objecting to
00:19:11
is that a young person has perceived the hypocrisy and corruption of the generation that has created
00:19:17
their world. This book saved me in a lot of ways and then I published it hoping to help people
00:19:23
find a blueprint to heal. Season 2 of Velshiban Book Club. All episodes available now.
00:19:28
I'm breaking news to tell you about in the last few minutes, Donald, from adding another former
00:19:38
television personalities, a theme here, to his new administration nominating Dr. Oz to serve as
00:19:44
the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Administrator. That's a position that manages
00:19:50
Medicare and Medicaid and other programs that cover half of all Americans, half of all the people
00:19:55
in this country. It's a position under the Department of Health and Human Services that will
00:20:00
require Senate approval to be confirmed. Trump says Dr. Oz, who ran and lost the Senate
00:20:07
Pennsylvania race in 2022 to John Federman, will work closely with RFK Jr to quote, "take on the
00:20:14
illness, industrial complex and all the horrible chronic diseases left in its wake." Trump says this
00:20:20
about Dr. Oz, quote, "there may be no physician more qualified and capable to make America healthy
00:20:27
again." Dr. Oz, of course, has no experience in government. Joining our coverage is Puck Chief
00:20:33
Political Columnist and MSNBC National Affairs Analyst John Hyelman, also joining us, MSNBC
00:20:39
Contributor and Columnist Charlie Sykes is here, Maya Stowe with us. John Hyelman, president,
00:20:46
gets to pick whom ever he or she wants in their cabinet, and this president has been very attracted
00:20:53
to television figures. Well, I mean, Nicole, least surprising thing in the world that Donald
00:21:01
Trump be attracted to television figures, he's like, yes, that's all he is himself as a television
00:21:05
figure, also our next president in the United States. You know, I have to say that in the spectrum,
00:21:12
I don't want to dismiss any of these nominees, dismiss their, the importance of them.
00:21:20
This is an important public health, this is an important job that relates to health care,
00:21:26
and at least it is true that Dr. Oz is a doctor, and I don't want to, I don't want to try to
00:21:32
define DBNC down here, but I will say that, you know, if you had nominated Dr. Oz to be the head of
00:21:39
Health and Human Services, I think we all would have breathed the sigh of relief, at least if the
00:21:45
alternative was by President of Kennedy Jr., who has no relationship to public health whatsoever,
00:21:50
and I think you would have said what you just said a second ago, which the president gets to pick,
00:21:54
the people they get to pick, that they want to pick, that's their prerogative, but I have to say
00:21:58
that when you hear that quote, which is that, you know, the two biggest jobs in terms of health care
00:22:04
policy and health care administration in the country now are going to be run if Donald Trump gets
00:22:09
his way by Robert of Kennedy Jr., and Dr. Oz, that is not something that anyone who has any
00:22:16
relationship to that health care system is going to agree with a whole lot of enthusiasm. I would think
00:22:23
if they were in their right mind. Charlie Sykes, there's something about the two planes on which
00:22:30
we have to examine these, right? There is the intention from the Trump side, which is to throw
00:22:35
shiny, round-shaped grenades into the news cycle, but there is a political reality. There are no
00:22:43
agencies that touch more people and have more political power if they get screwed up than Medicare
00:22:51
and Medicaid. None. There are no two programs that have the potential to turn red state governors
00:22:56
against you if they get screwed up. There are no agencies that have the ability to turn
00:23:01
bold voters against you if they get screwed up. There are no agencies that have the potential
00:23:06
to create a homelessness crisis anywhere in the country if they get screwed up. There are no
00:23:11
agencies that have, you know, a president's fate in their hands politically, like these two,
00:23:18
if they get screwed up. And they are now in the hands of RFK Jr and Dr. Oz.
00:23:22
Yeah, can we just start with that sentence? As soon as John said it, you know, if we would have said
00:23:30
a couple of months ago that the health care system in America would be, I mean, that these two agencies
00:23:35
would be run by RFK Jr and Dr. Oz and the Tulsi Gabbard would be at the top of the intelligence
00:23:41
community in Matt Kates would be Attorney General. People would have said, "Oh, you guys are
00:23:45
suffering from Trump D-Rangement Syndrome." You know, it's not making this stuff up. Look,
00:23:49
competence is obviously not a priority in these choices. And John is absolutely right. It is
00:23:57
remarkable to the degree to which this administration has, in fact, defined DDSC down and defined
00:24:03
absurdity down because you put it all in context and you have people who are utterly unsuited for
00:24:12
the jobs they are being given and have a long history of comments and behavior that ought to be
00:24:20
utterly disqualifying. I mean, during the COVID pandemic, Dr. Oz was a pedler of pseudo-science and
00:24:28
disinformation. And now he's going to be running Medicare and Medicaid. And, you know, we don't even
00:24:32
need to get into the things that Robert F. Kennedy Jr has done. So this administration is being
00:24:38
stat with reality TV stars. And what the consequences are we don't know. I think that one thing that I
00:24:46
would want to flag is we shouldn't take the focus off the people at the second and third
00:24:52
years who will actually be doing the work that these figureheads are in fact supposed to be doing
00:24:58
because many of them will have agendas that frankly, I am not sure that the majority of Americans
00:25:06
even guessed that before the election, including the privatization of Medicare that is
00:25:12
mantling many of the medical safety nets that we have in this country. So, again, we're seeing more
00:25:20
of the same that we've seen for the last week and now. Charlie, we have fun, something interesting,
00:25:25
because if you talk to a Trump voter, they talk about Trump like he's some all a cart menu. Like,
00:25:31
why I didn't want the retribution piece, I just wanted the White House economy. Or, you know, I
00:25:36
don't like Matt Gaetz. I didn't want him or, you know, I wasn't an RFK person. And wasn't he going
00:25:42
to talk to Kamala Harris if she picked up the point is you get all of it. The point about Trump is that
00:25:48
it's a package deal and you get Trump and you get Matt Gaetz and you get JD Vance and you get
00:25:54
Project 2025 and you get RFK Jr. The thing that's interesting though about that and every reporter
00:26:00
out talking to Trump voters will say the same thing is they're in lies the political tension. And I
00:26:05
think a lot of people I'm looking for, where is the tension going to be? And the tension is going to be
00:26:08
within his own base about things that they don't think they signed up for. And they didn't sign up,
00:26:14
I don't think they think, for Medicare to be messed with. I mean, what are the sort of liabilities
00:26:19
with some of these selections? Well, their huge and Donald Trump actually does understand this,
00:26:26
or at least did it one time. I mean, one of his major political initiatives back in 2016 was when
00:26:34
he separated himself from other Republicans, he said, I will not mess with Social Security and Medicare.
00:26:39
Do you remember when he did that? And that was crucial, I think, to putting together the coalition
00:26:44
that he put together. You know, you and I are enough to remember the Tea Party. One of the great
00:26:49
paradoxes of the Tea Party movement was people wanted to dismantle the government to slow down
00:26:53
other growth of government, but they also supported Social Security and Medicare. So there is a real risk
00:27:01
there. And as usual with Donald Trump, I think that you should not assume that he's thought through
00:27:06
all of the consequences of messing with Medicare. My, we were talking about the pick to the FCC,
00:27:14
literally the guy that wrote the chapter about social media. You've now got another pick
00:27:22
at HHS, someone who is known and I believe has faced some accountability for some of the
00:27:29
unfounded things that he promoted in his past as a television host.
00:27:35
What is your sense on sort of the honeymoon timeline? I mean, Trump is clearly
00:27:41
very, very high and elated on his victory. These are the picks of someone who believes he has
00:27:48
a mandate. When I think of Brick Hume over at Fox News says there is no mandate and it looks like
00:27:53
the count will come in under 50 percent of Americans who voted for him. What, what, what is your
00:27:57
sense of, of, of where that orbit is sort of flying these days? It's, you know, it's so hard to say,
00:28:06
but what I will say and it's the thing we know about Donald Trump and solving this election cycle
00:28:11
is when things became unpopular. His positions became unpopular. He just
00:28:17
lied about them and changed them, flip-flopped and said things that are actually inconsistent with
00:28:23
many of the things that are said inside Project 2025 and mapping to his own nominees. And so what
00:28:31
it tells us is, you know, he's very wedded to the positions that he originally took. I mean, I think
00:28:38
we're looking at nominees that are not just people he thinks will be very loyal to his agenda
00:28:45
in terms of packing government with folks who will do his bidding, forgetting civil service,
00:28:50
trying to make sure he has his own version of a deep state. That's really all you're doing when you're
00:28:55
saying you're going to pack the government with people who agree with you ideologically when
00:29:00
what we have is a nonpartisan civil service. But he's really picking, if you notice, the agencies that
00:29:07
he most cares about controlling with people he feels extremely loyal to him and to his very dangerous
00:29:16
ideas for so many of the people who actually voted for him. Because if you start to think about
00:29:21
Medicaid and Medicare, that impacts everyone. And in states where there are real people struggling,
00:29:29
Medicaid is the way and in many instances the expansion of Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act
00:29:36
is the way that people are getting that care. And one of the things we know in Project 2025
00:29:41
is it sets its sights on undermining the program. And it also sets its sights and trying to divide us
00:29:48
around whether we should be taking care of any kind of challenges we have in getting that care.
00:29:54
And that is going to come home to Rooson. It'll be very interesting to see if Donald Trump does one
00:30:01
of two things, reverse himself or or uses the machinery he has at his disposal, including Elon Musk's
00:30:10
X to drive disinformation and division as we were talking about earlier, which has also been part
00:30:17
of his MO. And so amazing, these are sort of the kinds of agencies where all the disinformation
00:30:23
could be staring you in the face. But if you're not getting what you need for a loved one in terms
00:30:27
of healthcare through the rubber meets the road. All right, no one's going anywhere. There's
00:30:32
so much more. Speaking of agencies, Trump cares about most, drip, drip, drip. The details keep
00:30:38
coming. The ones that have been kept under wraps by the House Ethics Committee about Matt Gates.
00:30:44
They continue to reveal themselves as Donald Trump personally takes this on and lobby Senate
00:30:51
Republicans to ignore all of it and confirm his selection to lead the Department of Justice. We're
00:30:56
bringing the latest on that story next. I mean, the fact that matter is whether we get the ethics
00:31:07
report or not, the facts are going to come out one way or the other. And I would think it would be
00:31:13
and everybody's best interest, including the presidents, not to be surprised by some information
00:31:19
that might come out during the confirmation hearing and the background check.
00:31:25
That was Republican Senator John Kornin urging the House Ethics Committee to rip the band-aid off
00:31:30
and just release the report on its investigation into former congressman and Trump's pick for
00:31:36
Attorney General Matt Gates before it leaks out. An eerily prescient warning today,
00:31:41
NBC reporting that a hacker has gained access to witness testimony in the committee's investigation.
00:31:47
Writing this quote, that file included the testimony of the woman who alleges she had sex with
00:31:53
Gates when she was 17 years old in 2017, as well as the testimony of a second woman who said she
00:32:00
witnessed the encounter and the information is unredacted according to a source. The file has not yet
00:32:06
been made public. A lawyer for two of the witnesses says one of his clients testified that Matt Gates was
00:32:12
not aware that the girl was 17 when he had sex with her and that when Gates found out he did not
00:32:18
have sex with her again until she was 18 years old. Despite the increasingly damaging and disturbing
00:32:26
allegations coming to light about Matt Gates, Donald Trump and the Trump transition is standing by
00:32:32
their man and now making a public full court press to get him confirmed. NBC News reports that Trump
00:32:39
has personally been calling senators pushing them to confirm Matt Gates as Attorney General.
00:32:45
JD Vance is in on it as well, heading to the hill tomorrow to push for Matt Gates and other
00:32:51
Trump cabinet picks. For his part, Trump's buddy Elon Musk who himself is the subject of sexual
00:32:58
misconduct allegations posted on social media this quote, "Gates will be our hammer of justice. We're
00:33:06
back with John Hauman, Charlie Sykes and Maya Wiley. John Hauman, let me just play some of
00:33:12
my colleague, Halle Jackson's interview with an attorney for two of the witnesses.
00:33:16
What did she see? What did your client witness at the park? She was walking outside to the pool
00:33:25
and she observed to a right her friend who was 17 at a time of having sex with Representative Gates.
00:33:30
They were leaned up to what she described to as a game table of some type.
00:33:34
Was your client paid for sex by Matt Gates? Is that what she testified to?
00:33:39
How the House directed the questioning was, they put up a number of Venmo payments and PayPal
00:33:44
payments by Representative Gates and asked both of my clients what were each one of these payments
00:33:50
made for and my clients repeatedly testified, "Well, that was for sex and that was for sex."
00:33:56
They provided a subpoena of the force them to testify honestly and that's what they've done.
00:34:00
They don't have an agenda. My clients are not politically motivated. They haven't voted in the
00:34:06
last two elections. They don't have a dog in the fight. John Halle.
00:34:12
I hate those open-ended questions Nicole. That's not really a question.
00:34:21
I mean, I have a question. I have a question. I censored myself, but I'll just say it.
00:34:26
So, I mean, they don't have a dog in them. They don't have a dog in their mind.
00:34:32
Well, I mean, don't we all have a dog in the fight?
00:34:34
Doesn't Trump also have a dog? Trump did better among women than anyone thought he would.
00:34:38
Doesn't Trump have a dog in the fight? Trump has now picked as a vice president,
00:34:44
a man who thinks that women should stay in marriage as even when they're violent.
00:34:47
Trump is himself an adjudicated sexual abuser. Mr. Hegg says was involved in an altercation
00:34:54
for which the Monterey Police Department released a report saying it had been called and
00:35:01
the woman had a bruise on her leg that that woman took a rape kit test and Seaman was found.
00:35:08
And we're having these conversations because these are the men Trump is attracted to.
00:35:12
This is the wave of, I guess, anti-MeToo toxic masculinity Joe Rogan has ushered into America.
00:35:18
So, we're talking about, we're putting into context that Matt Gates, after learning that a woman
00:35:24
for which he was investigated for alleged child sex trafficking, stopped having sex with her when
00:35:29
he learned she was 17 and waited to start having sex with her again until after her 18th birthday.
00:35:34
And I don't want to talk about this stuff, but these are the men that Donald Trump has selected
00:35:39
and it's just such an unbelievable departure from the best people to the alleged sex trafficker.
00:35:47
Right. So, totally agree with all of that as a description of the situation we find ourselves in.
00:35:58
There are a lot of things that one Nicole, you've ranged across the waterfront there in terms of
00:36:02
observations. And some of those observations are sociological. Some of them are cultural. Some of
00:36:07
them are, you know, about like they go lead down to down paths towards the moment we're living in
00:36:15
and towards these broader trends. But I guess what I hear this, what I hear as you go through that
00:36:22
litany is that the guy who was caught on tape talking about how when you're a star you can do anything,
00:36:30
you can grab them by the pussy. That guy who became president after that. That guy who was, as you
00:36:39
said, is now an adjudicated, adjudicated as being liable for sexual assault. That guy, in the inter-rebeating
00:36:49
period ran again for president and got more votes than he got back in 2016 and got a larger percentage
00:36:56
of the country won the popular vote. Improved his political standing in 92 out of 100 American
00:37:01
counties. That guy, I think, has reached the conclusion that on the politics of it that he is not
00:37:09
going to be damaged by appointing to significant and serious positions in the government,
00:37:16
other guys like him. And honestly, like, from this narrow standpoint of like, why is this happening?
00:37:22
Why? Why would none of us want to be talking about this? Is Matt Gaetz skeezy? Is he gross? Is he
00:37:29
disgusting? Does the stuff that we've heard about what he's bragged about to his colleagues on the
00:37:34
House floor and to other members? Is that all appalling and repulsive? Yes, for sure. We knew all that,
00:37:39
by the way, about Matt Gaetz long before he was put forward for the Justice Department. But I think
00:37:44
you, this is one of those fish rotting from the head down situations where if you're asking why
00:37:49
are we living through it right now, Donald Trump thinks he plays no political price. He assumes that
00:37:54
if he can do the things he's done, including these last-minute revelations during the campaign,
00:37:59
about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, he has gotten through none of these things seem to have
00:38:05
prevented him from his ultimate goal, which is to win the president once, president say once,
00:38:09
and now win it twice and be in a stronger position politically. So if you're asking me, is it
00:38:13
disgusting? Does it say a lot of bad things about where we are as a society right now? Does it say a
00:38:17
lot of things about misogyny and the pervasiveness in our culture? Yes. Does it surprise me that Donald
00:38:25
Trump has made the calculation, given his history, and what he's been rewarded for, that he can get
00:38:30
away with putting these people forward? That doesn't surprise me at all. I think that's to be
00:38:35
expected from a candidate who has the incentive system built in and has been rewarded in the way
00:38:41
he's been rewarded, given his own history, makes perfect sense to me that he thinks, well, why not?
00:38:45
A nominate a Matt Gaetz. Why not? Nominate a Pete Hegseth. Why not? Nominate, no, it may be more,
00:38:51
coming down the pike. I think Trump thinks he'll get away with it, he might.
00:38:54
I don't disagree with any of that. I guess, Charlie, the question is about the flatlining
00:39:01
of the sole of the Republican senators. And I've covered the flatlining of any morals or ethics,
00:39:08
since the Access Hollywood tape that won't be quoted twice. But I think it's a remarkable
00:39:16
story about them. That John Thune doesn't have a bottom. That John Cornyn doesn't have a bottom.
00:39:22
The Mitch McConnell doesn't have any power. And I guess when Mitch McConnell votes for Trump,
00:39:27
after Trump smears his own wife with an racial slur, you don't expect him to stand up for the
00:39:33
women of Americans. They may be someone investigative for child sex trafficking isn't the best person to
00:39:39
oversee the laws of the land to protect all American women and girls from child sex trafficking.
00:39:44
Maybe that makes perfect sense. But I do think it's a legitimate question to ask.
00:39:49
If John Cornyn and John Thune and Mitch McConnell have a bottom.
00:39:53
Well, we're going to find that out. We're going to find that out in the next couple of months.
00:39:58
And I think this is an interesting aspect of this story. The degree to which Donald Trump is
00:40:04
humiliating the Republican Senate. He's humiliating them by sending these grossly absurd appointments.
00:40:12
And essentially saying, I'm going to ram this down your throat and you're going to have to take
00:40:16
votes approving them. And then at the same time, but even before he's taken office,
00:40:21
threatening to strip the Senate of its constitutional responsibility of advice and consent.
00:40:26
I mean, there's a certain amount of, well, there's a huge amount of contempt here.
00:40:31
And you are going to see this another in a series of tests. But Donald Trump is basically saying that
00:40:37
his presidency involves breaking the will of the Senate, having the Senate turn itself into a
00:40:43
series of potted plans. And so we're going to find out. You know, John was talking about the
00:40:49
political reality. Look, America, you know, Alexa, the adjudicated rapist, what should we be surprised
00:40:55
by? On the other hand, there is a moral dimension here that you're talking about a horrific behavior,
00:41:00
behavior that people, many people who voted for Donald Trump would never tolerate in their
00:41:07
community, in their family, you know, in any, in any context whatsoever. And yet Donald Trump
00:41:13
is one appointment after another. It's almost as if this is now a requirement on your resume
00:41:19
that you have to have some sort of sexual abuse or allegation against you. And I do
00:41:24
think that there's a political dimension, but there's also a moral dimension. And that whatever
00:41:30
our predictions are, we should fully expect Republican senators to do the right thing. We should
00:41:36
expect them. And we just shouldn't just throw up our hands and figure that they're going to do
00:41:40
the same thing all all over again, although they probably will. All right. Everyone is staying with
00:41:44
us. Well, my, the last word on all this on the other side of a break. Don't go anywhere.
00:41:52
Maya, I was just looking at some of the sort of final polls. And it turns out this was as David
00:41:58
Plough predicted about a one to two point race. There was a theory that women would reject Donald
00:42:09
Trump in numbers to fuel Kamala Harris's victory across the swing states. That didn't happen.
00:42:16
I'm largely because of white women. Why do you think that was? Well, I want to reframe it just one
00:42:24
little bit. We have long had a problem in this country of whether people vote their interests
00:42:31
or vote their race. And identity politics is not the issue unless we're talking about whether
00:42:37
people are voting for themselves or voting for their race. And that's what happened in some of
00:42:42
these instances of voters. But the other thing we have to remember is we have a lot more work. We
00:42:47
could have done and need to do and invest in communities in all over this country so that people
00:42:54
actually show up to vote because we didn't see the level of turnout we could have and should have.
00:43:01
That would have been women and people of color and people all over this country that would have
00:43:05
come out for a better set of principles and values. Because at the end of the day, what we know
00:43:11
is that we share and agree more on policy than we realize unless the person at the top of the
00:43:18
ticket doesn't look the same. And that we have to solve. And I just want to say this one last thing.
00:43:24
You know, we don't take laying down what any Republican senators want to do to roll over to hold
00:43:33
on a political power because the issue with the policies we agree on and that is that we should
00:43:38
all be safe. And we're not going to allow anybody to tell us one percent of the U.S. population
00:43:44
transgender people are somehow our biggest danger when it comes to sexual violence.
00:43:48
Yeah, it's such an important point to be continued. John Halman, thank you for keeping it real.
00:43:56
Charlie Sykes, Maya Wally, who always keep it real. Thank you very much for having this conversation
00:44:00
with us. We just need one more break. We'll be right back. Today prosecutors and
00:44:08
Donald Trump's hush money case told Judge Juan Moshan that Trump's sentencing should be postponed
00:44:14
but added that they will continue to fight Trump's efforts to dismiss the case.
00:44:19
Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office suggesting they could freeze the case
00:44:24
until he is out of office. Judge Moshan was tentatively scheduled to sentence Donald
00:44:29
Trump later this month on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. But that outcome was thrown
00:44:35
into doubt when prosecutors asked the judge to temporarily stay the proceedings while they consider
00:44:41
the impact of Trump's election victory on the case. We'll stand top of that. Coming up for us,
00:44:47
one of Donald Trump's cabinet picks likely had champagne corks popping in Moscow when she was
00:44:53
announced. That is of course Tulsi Gabbard for DNI. We'll talk about why after a quick break.
00:44:59
Well, I just think we have to do a really thorough job of vetting Tulsi Gabbard and asking some very
00:45:13
difficult questions. Obviously we have all watched her toe the line of some brutal despotic regimes
00:45:23
defending Moscow's invasion of Ukraine engaging in secret diplomacy with Bashar al-Assad in the
00:45:32
middle of his murderous rampage inside Syria. I just think we have to ask some real questions
00:45:39
about Tulsi Gabbard's positions. Hi again, everybody. Five o'clock in New York. At a time when
00:45:45
global tensions are high and the war in Ukraine is intensifying, Donald Trump's decision to tap
00:45:51
Tulsi Gabbard as his incoming director of national intelligence is raising alarms as you heard
00:45:57
there. New reporting uncovers how she has become a favorite among the state media of one of America's
00:46:04
adversaries Russia. That's according to The New York Times, which reports this quote, "In Russia,
00:46:09
the reaction to her potential appointment has been gleeful even if Putin's government remains
00:46:15
wary of American policies even under a second Trump administration." The CIA and the FBI are
00:46:21
trembling. A Russian newspaper wrote on Friday in a glowing profile of Ms. Gabbard noting positively
00:46:28
that Ukrainians consider her "an agent of the Russian state." A state television channel called her
00:46:35
a Russian comrade in Mr. Trump's emerging cabinet. The Times goes on to report quote, "Among
00:46:41
members from both parties for tacit support of Russia's war aims in Ukraine and her repetition
00:46:47
of Kremlin disinformation have raised doubts about whether she should be given oversight of the
00:46:52
intelligence agencies, including the responsibility of preparing the highly classified daily intelligence
00:46:59
briefings for the returning president." Which we have just learned Trump is now receiving
00:47:05
as the president elect after having chosen not to receive them while he was a candidate.
00:47:10
Trump receiving intelligence briefings is remarkable for the fact that just last year he was
00:47:15
criminally charged for mishandling national defense information and classified information
00:47:21
has already established disregard for the safety of our nation's secrets,
00:47:25
makes his cabinet choices, especially those with access to top intelligence, all the more serious.
00:47:32
Here's Congressman Abigail Spamberger. So I'm a former CIA officer. I worked undercover for my time
00:47:38
with the agency as a case officer. The reason that this nomination I think is so dangerous is because
00:47:44
any damage that she would do, any information she would provide the president, right? She tweets
00:47:48
Russian propaganda, why not include it in the presidential daily brief. She traffics in conspiracy
00:47:55
theories, why not kind of push that into the greater ecosystem of intelligence. And none of that
00:48:01
would ever be seen by the public. There's no opportunity to push back. There's no opportunity to
00:48:06
understand. It's not about party or the president elect. It's about our national security.
00:48:11
That is where we start. The hour is some of our favorite experts and friends, former CIA director
00:48:16
and MSNBC senior national security analyst John Brennan's here, also joining us, former assistant
00:48:22
director for counterintelligence at the FBI, MSNBC national security analyst Frank Figuizi is back
00:48:29
and the president of media matters, Angelo Carasone is here. Director Brennan, let me just
00:48:34
bring into the conversation before we start some new reporting in the Washington post about the
00:48:40
transition, which is what's happening right now. The Washington Post today reports this, quote,
00:48:45
"Trump has yet to collaborate with the General Services Administration, which is tasked with the
00:48:51
complex work of handing over control of hundreds of agencies because he has not turned in required
00:48:57
pledges to follow ethics rules. His transition teams have yet to set foot inside a single
00:49:02
federal office in calls with foreign heads of state. Trump has cut out the State Department,
00:49:08
its secure lines and its official interpreters. Trump is right now a black box to the intelligence
00:49:18
agencies he's about to oversee." Well, I think Donald Trump is well known commodity in terms of what
00:49:27
he did during his first term and also how he recklessly handled classified information, which I think
00:49:33
is one of the reasons why there's such concern within the intelligence communities. But let's face it,
00:49:38
Donald Trump is not going to follow any rules but his own. That's why there have been no individuals
00:49:43
that have been submitted for background checks to the FBI. These ethics pledges have not been
00:49:48
signed as a point out GSA has not been able to engage with them in order to ensure this transition
00:49:53
is smooth and seamless. But then also with his appointees, I think he's just showing that he is
00:49:59
going to do whatever he wants and he's basically daring Republicans, especially in the Senate,
00:50:03
to defy him. So given that the director of national intelligence is by law, the president's principal
00:50:11
intelligence advisor, the individual who oversees the production of the Daily Presence Daily Brief,
00:50:17
which contains the secrets and sensitive class of information of the US intelligence community,
00:50:23
this is a tremendous responsibility that is now being entrusted at least in the nomination
00:50:28
of Tulsi Gabbard. And that's clear based on what Senator Murphy said at New York Times in
00:50:34
Congresswoman Spemberer, she has done things and said things over the years that really
00:50:38
caused great concern about where her sympathies and sentiments lie. But also she has no experience
00:50:44
of background in intelligence profession. I mean, yes, she's served in the US military for 20 years,
00:50:49
she should be thanked for that. But she has none of the experience of the credentials that are
00:50:53
necessary to lead 18 intelligence agencies departments when we're facing so many challenges around
00:51:00
the globe. And so therefore, again, Donald Trump is just going to, I think, ramrod these selections
00:51:05
through and it's really going to be up to the Republicans in the Senate to be able to stop them.
00:51:10
Director Brennan, can you just say a little bit about what happens on day one for the workforce
00:51:19
of Save the CIA? Well, they are new in January 20th when Donald Trump is inaugurated. They then
00:51:30
will be following the direction of whoever is in charge of the agency. And so John Ratcliffe has
00:51:37
been nominated, but he's not, I don't know if he's going to be confirmed soon after that. But
00:51:42
Donald Trump has the ability to appoint a acting director. The deputy director of the CIA is not
00:51:48
a Senate confirmed position. So that acting director can actually carry out all those duties and
00:51:54
responsibilities. And so that person can send, I think, some, you know, shocking directions to the
00:52:00
CIA officers who, again, put their lives in the line around the globe 24/7. And so I think that there's,
00:52:07
you know, great worrying concern about what does this mean? Given that Donald Trump has said he's
00:52:12
basically going to blow up the administrative state and do some slashing and burning. And these are
00:52:17
the institutions that rely on so heavily for national security. And what I don't want my former colleagues
00:52:24
to do is to leave the agency because we need them to stay strong and to carry out their responsibilities
00:52:30
with the salinity that they have over the course of, I think, the CIA's history.
00:52:36
Bring, let me read a little bit more of NBC's reporting on and how this would work.
00:52:44
Gabbard would pose a potentially unprecedented dilemma for US intelligence agencies, the top
00:52:49
official who may not share an underlying premise about which countries are America's major
00:52:55
enemies. The DNI's job is to define the world as it is, as opposed to advocating for a world as
00:53:01
you want it to be. That's a former intelligence official, former US intelligence officials and
00:53:06
lawmakers also worry that Gabbard and the new Trump administration might decide to scale back
00:53:12
intelligence sharing with Ukraine, possibly in an attempt to force Kyiv to agree to a peace deal.
00:53:18
Your thoughts? Yeah, and indeed, the, you know, the job of a DNI is to coordinate the intelligence
00:53:27
community. Everybody rowing in the direction of finding the facts that best support US interests.
00:53:35
And if so, if the person in charge of that is biased and wants everybody
00:53:40
rowing over here away from fact and truth and US interests, she has the ability to do that.
00:53:45
She sets the shopping list, so to speak, for collection across the US intelligence community.
00:53:52
And as John has just said, she'll also decide what goes in that daily brief to the president.
00:53:56
And if the president doesn't want to hear anything about Russia, then guess what? She's going to say,
00:54:02
"I don't want that in the briefing." He's not going to hear that. That's bad news for him.
00:54:07
That's not what US intelligence collection is supposed to be. And I know a lot of people are
00:54:12
talking about the threat and risk she poses because of her positions, her travels, and all of that.
00:54:18
But it's even worse than that. We can't stand here and say with any certainty that she is a Russian
00:54:24
asset or she poses a threat or risk because we're not being allowed to view or engage in the
00:54:31
standard FBI background investigation that is supposed to happen with this level of nominee.
00:54:36
So that means the Senate is flying blind and may even lose their advice and consent powers,
00:54:42
which are in the Constitution if Trump goes the route of recess appointments. That means the Senate
00:54:47
Judiciary Committee is not getting what they're supposed to have. And it means that the American
00:54:54
public doesn't know who's taking one of the most important positions in the intelligence community.
00:55:00
No background investigation, no GSA process. What does that mean? Is Trump afraid that GSA
00:55:05
office space would be bugged? Is that where we are right now or he doesn't simply want to have to
00:55:10
sign that ethics agreement? That's where we are. We don't even know who these people are
00:55:16
because we're deprived of the background investigations. And who gives these people a clearance?
00:55:22
By the way, DNI's got every clearance known to Matt, right? Who says, yeah, you get the clearance
00:55:27
despite the lack of any background investigation? I don't know.
00:55:31
I mean, I guess, Frank, someone who was criminally charged in a case that former Attorney General Bill
00:55:39
Barr basically described as open and shut for mishandling classified documents, including
00:55:44
National Defense Administration, is doing exactly what you would expect someone criminally
00:55:49
charged with mishandling classified information in a case so open and shut that Bill Barr thought he
00:55:55
was toast, right? Yeah, there's a total disdain for the rules here and look. I love shaking things
00:56:04
up myself. Grape, bureaucracies, you know, can be ugly sometimes. Sure, go ahead and break it.
00:56:09
We're not talking about that. We're talking about national security threats. We're talking about a
00:56:14
person who gave highly classified information to Russian officials. That's what we, as a people,
00:56:20
appear to have elected. Angela, there's something so impossible to articulate about the MOU that
00:56:28
officially commences the landing teams arrival of the national security agencies and green lights,
00:56:35
this process that we're all talking about. But the reason it's hard to bring that to life is because
00:56:40
it's never really been an issue. Even even even in 2000 where there was a recount, even in 2020,
00:56:48
when Trump refused to can see the election, there was a transition. There were teams named,
00:56:54
there were government officials to be selected so that the FBI could bet them. And you would take an
00:57:01
oath and you would swear that your allegiance was to the United States. That is the process that
00:57:06
has been aborted in the Trump transition. And with your sort of expertise in what the plan was
00:57:14
all along, just share your thoughts and reflections on where we are.
00:57:18
Yeah, I mean, the thing that is worth keeping in mind is that we're sort of, we're all pointing
00:57:24
up to their accurate assessment. And part of it is that they've spent the last four years. And it
00:57:29
started before them, but the last four years really entrenching this idea that all of the United
00:57:34
States government is the actual enemy, is enemy number one. And so every time we point out,
00:57:39
accurately, that they want to dismantle it, undermine it, that it's going to make us less safe.
00:57:42
They say, yes, that's exactly right, because that is the enemy number one. And where that starts
00:57:49
from, what that originates, who that benefits, those are all real questions. And as it's already been
00:57:53
discussed, we don't even know necessarily to what extent, in this case, gap resolution is with
00:57:58
foreign entities. And whether it's just sympathies or something deeper than that, because it's not
00:58:01
being investigated, the normal channels and processes of a transition are not even being followed
00:58:06
this time, which is a reflection of the fact that that is, it is so deeply internalized that all
00:58:13
of these institutions are the enemy, and they need to go away or be dismantled or be destroyed.
00:58:18
And I think to just put a sort of a wrap around it, because there's something sort of unsettling
00:58:22
that's hard to articulate here. And so the best way that I can sort of illustrate it is that
00:58:27
it's a start with, yeah, there is something unsettling here. And some ways to understand that is,
00:58:31
where the news about Tulsi Garbage appointment was broken in the first place. It was broken by Alex
00:58:36
Jones on Infowars. It wasn't broken by a far-right-wing outlet or something like that. It was broken
00:58:41
there. That's where that news came out first, and that's significant. It didn't, it wasn't by accident.
00:58:45
It was by design, that the news of her sort of, you know, being put there, it sort of came first,
00:58:51
because that is a reflection of whether power is being organized now, is being organized. I want
00:58:56
you to consider the fringes. And Gabbert is an example of somebody that came in sort of as a
00:59:01
Democrat, at least ostensibly, and she validated, as a Democrat, all of the right-wing narrative that
00:59:07
they were telling about these sort of government institutions. And in way, they said, see, even a
00:59:12
Democrat believes all the things that we're saying about the deep state, about the nefarious forces.
00:59:17
And so not only was she part of that validation process, but she's also an illustration of what
00:59:22
that transition is and how you sort of live and survive and thrive in the right-wing fever swamps.
00:59:28
And so when you pull it all together, she not only helped validate and cultivate that narrative,
00:59:32
and is clearly responsive to that audience and landscape, but now she's going to be in a position
00:59:38
where what Trump was previously getting from right-wing media, and we saw that play out of his
00:59:42
first source of term, is now going to be echoed in whatever the internal intelligence that he
00:59:47
receives, because the underlying institutions are in fact going to be actively and intentionally
00:59:52
dismantled or at least disrupted. And that's the reality that we're heading into here.
00:59:56
I mean, Angela, let me illustrate that. This is Tulsi Gabbard describing the
01:00:02
court-approved search of Mar-a-Lago to retrieve classified national defense information on Fox News.
01:00:09
The FBI's raid on Mar-a-Lago changed the country that we grew up, and we grew up believing that,
01:00:17
hey, our government will apply the law equally to all Americans, whether you're a Republican or a
01:00:22
Democrat, we're seeing more and more that that country no longer exists. Law enforcement, the highest
01:00:27
levels of government, whether it's the DOJ, the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, and now,
01:00:33
even the IRS have been weaponized to target the political opponents of the unit party,
01:00:37
the permanent Washington, and the Biden regime.
01:00:40
Only people known to have been targeted by all those agencies were Trump's political adversaries.
01:00:49
I mean, the complete inverse is what comes out of her mouth, which is, again, whether her
01:00:57
sympathies live with Russia or whether it's something deeper, I think, is a known unknown. But the tactics
01:01:02
are straight out of Russian disinformation playbook.
01:01:06
They are, and in fact, the thing that I always jumped to is not only was she a fixture on Fox News
01:01:12
for a while, but she guest-hosted, she used to be a guest host for Tucker Carlson, who, as you know,
01:01:18
did increasingly more sympathetic Russian content. He did that whole big thing. He's like,
01:01:22
in the supermarket laughing and talking about how great the country is and how what we're being fed
01:01:27
is a lie. And I think that, to me, is the tying year, is that we already know what she's going to do
01:01:34
in this role, because she's been doing it in the right-wing media for the past few years,
01:01:38
which is sort of taking these attacks on American institutions and American credibility.
01:01:43
And I agree with Frank was saying, we shouldn't always defend reflexively institutions and
01:01:48
bureaucracies that need to be adapted, modified, improved, optimized. That should always be something
01:01:53
we aspire to. But that's not what, that's sort of what it sounds like they're talking about to
01:01:57
their audiences. They're talking about something deeper. They've identified an enemy,
01:02:01
which is the government and they're acting accordingly. And that's why they're not participating
01:02:05
in this process, this transition, because they don't even want to undermine their own argument
01:02:10
to their own narrative to the audience that they've been feeding this to. So every action,
01:02:14
every day that goes by, they further reinforce the very story that they've been telling as they
01:02:19
get one step closer to those official positions. All right, no one's going anywhere. When we come back,
01:02:24
standing up to Vladimir Putin becomes all the more critical, unless the stakes in Ukraine rise by
01:02:30
the day. But Moscow's latest announcement, lowering the threshold for Russia's use of nuclear weapons,
01:02:36
means for the now 1000 day long war in Ukraine. That's next. Plus for months, Donald Trump distanced
01:02:44
himself from the highly unpopular project 2025. But now in a mask off moment, he is reportedly vetting
01:02:52
its cheap architect for a high level administration job. And there's a lot of talk about the size of Trump's
01:02:59
victory. Republicans have been saying he has a quote unquote mandate, but the truth and the data
01:03:05
tell a very different story will go inside some new numbers later in the hour. Design White House
01:03:11
continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. MSNBC's Lorenzo Donald. I have an obligation to find a way
01:03:22
of telling this story that is fresh, that has angles that haven't been used in the course of the day,
01:03:29
to bring my experience working in the Senate, working in journalism, to try to make sense of what
01:03:35
has happened and help you make sense of what it means to you. The last word with Lorenzo Donald,
01:03:42
week nights at 10 p.m. Eastern on MSNBC.
01:03:45
What's causing the rise in book banning? On my podcast, Velshiban Book Club, I speak with authors of
01:03:52
ban books to try and find out. I think what they're really objecting to is that a young person has
01:03:58
perceived the hypocrisy and corruption of the generation that has created their world.
01:04:04
This book saved me in a lot of ways and then I published it hoping to help people find a blueprint
01:04:09
to heal. Season two of Velshiban Book Club, all episodes available now.
01:04:14
Some alarming news to tell you about on the 1,000th day of Russia's unprovoked illegal invasion
01:04:25
of Ukraine that proves the stakes have perhaps never been higher when it comes to supporting our
01:04:30
Democratic ally over Vladimir Putin's Russia. Putin just formally lowered his own threshold for
01:04:36
using nuclear weapons, now saying Russia can conduct a nuclear strike if attacked by not only a
01:04:42
nuclear power such as the United States, but also a nation that is backed by a nuclear power such
01:04:48
as Ukraine. It was a long planned move that Putin first announced back in September after warning
01:04:55
that he would do so for years. The Kremlin says the use of nuclear weapons still would be a quote last
01:05:01
resort measure, but it's timing that makes it appear to be a clear signal to the west from Vladimir
01:05:08
Putin. U.S. officials telling NBC News that Ukraine fired into Russia overnight using U.S. made missiles
01:05:15
for the time after President Joe Biden gave Ukraine's military the go ahead over the weekend.
01:05:22
From the New York Times, quote, "the doctrine's publication on Tuesday appeared to be the latest
01:05:27
suggestion from the Kremlin that Russia could use nuclear weapons to respond to attacks by Ukraine,
01:05:33
carried out with American support, and that the response could be directed against American
01:05:38
facilities as well as Ukraine itself." We're back with Director John Brennan, Frank Figglesy,
01:05:43
and Angela Karasone. Director Brennan, now what?
01:05:49
Well, I know that Putin is quite angry at President Biden's authorization for the Ukrainians to use
01:05:54
these long-range missiles to the attackums in Russian territory, but I'm certain that the Ukrainians
01:05:59
are going to use it against military targets, weapons depots, troop concentrations, and so on.
01:06:04
And his saber rattling on the nuclear front, I think, is not surprising. However, there are 62 days
01:06:11
before Putin's dream team arrives in Washington. And I don't think he would opt to do anything on
01:06:17
the nuclear front, which really could be a setback to the prospects that Donald Trump is going to allow
01:06:24
Putin to have his way with Ukraine. Because it's quite clear that, as you pointed out earlier,
01:06:30
Trump has a lot of authority. He can cease intelligence sharing with Ukrainians. He can tell the CIA and
01:06:37
other intelligence agencies in the US military to stop whatever cooperation is ongoing. And so,
01:06:42
therefore, I don't think Putin wants to jeopardize that by doing something as rash and as radical
01:06:47
as using any type of nuclear weapon, including on a tactical front. So, again, I think we're going
01:06:54
to see some maybe increased Russian attacks against Ukrainian cities and targets, but I don't think
01:07:02
he's going to opt for that. I wouldn't be surprised also if there's going to be messages going
01:07:05
back and forth from the Trump campaign or the Trump team to Putin, to reassure Putin that the
01:07:12
Calvary is coming to help Russia salvage something out of this Ukrainian fiasco.
01:07:19
Pastas Prologue. Director Brennan, is it possible that Putin is putting Trump in a box, saying
01:07:24
the only way to de-escalate from this nuclear threat is to do exactly what I want at Ukraine?
01:07:30
Well, I think he's given Trump the opportunity to claim that, look at the deal, I'm going to strike
01:07:38
with Vladimir Putin by negotiating with them and negotiating maybe away some of the Ukrainian territory.
01:07:44
He has prevented some type of nuclear detonation. So, it may be seen as putting Trump in a box,
01:07:50
but also I think it's giving Trump the opportunity to demonstrate that he, in fact, can dissuade Moscow
01:07:56
from engaging in this type of nuclear attack. So, again, I think Putin and Trump know each other well
01:08:03
and want to work with each other. So, again, I just think in 62 days time, we're going to see the
01:08:11
benefits that Trump has really accrued because of the relationship that he's has with Vladimir Putin.
01:08:18
I think, Lizzy, the efforts to inform and deepen Donald Trump's opinion as generous as, again,
01:08:27
sort of teach Donald Trump why NATO exists and why we're a part of it and why Russia is an enemy
01:08:31
and why Kim Jong Un is an adversary, not your best friend to whom you should be writing love letters.
01:08:36
And the effort to try to infuse into Donald Trump an American spirit when it comes to foreign policy
01:08:44
was a debacle. And it culminates in John Kelly doing a recorded interview in the days you for
01:08:51
the election and describing Donald Trump in some of the harshest terms that have ever been applied
01:08:57
to him by any Democrat or any Republican in the nine years that he's been at the center of American politics.
01:09:02
Do you view the affinity for Russia as part of that? Or do you think there's something
01:09:10
with JD Vance and Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard? And I mean, do you think there's something else
01:09:17
of what is sort of your theory of the case of Trump 2.0 vis-a-vis America's adversaries?
01:09:26
Yeah, I do think there's something more than just everybody in Trump's circle magically deciding
01:09:32
that they, hey, we love authoritarian dictators. Let's model ourselves after Vladimir Putin.
01:09:38
No, I think that there's been a massive campaign by the intelligence services in Russia and
01:09:48
led by Putin to convince the Trump circle that it's in their best interest to play with team Russia.
01:09:57
There's evidence of that. We are now deprived of FBI counterintelligence results as a result of
01:10:07
the Mueller investigation. We don't even know if that was fully explored. But no, I don't think this
01:10:13
is all coincidence. And I think to go back to the last segment, Nicole, this is precisely why we
01:10:20
need a DNI who is not going to cover up Russia intelligence collection. We need to know if Putin is
01:10:29
saying, you know what, I might start pre-positioning some tactical nukes. I might start pointing in this
01:10:35
direction here. If the decision is made, hey, I don't want to hear it. Putin got free license. We're blind.
01:10:41
We're operating in the blind. And I don't like where this is going. I think we are in the two-minute
01:10:48
warning with regard to Ukraine and Russia, meaning we got to get some things done fast, and that's
01:10:53
behind what Biden has authorized. I think the movement of North Korean troops into this picture has
01:10:59
also hastened that. We can't continue to allow that to happen, but it's two-minute warning. Games
01:11:05
almost over. And the person who authored the most scathing report and indictment of Donald Trump's
01:11:12
affinity for ties to and questions about Trump and Russia is his incoming Secretary of State Marker
01:11:18
Rubio when he took over from Richard Burr, the Senate Intelligence Committee. Do you think they know
01:11:24
that? Do you think they don't care? Do you think the chaos is the point? And the mishmash of
01:11:28
Gabbard and Rubio is Trump in mixed messaging? What do you think? Yeah, I think they don't care.
01:11:37
I think that they, and I think ultimately Rubio is sort of one small piece of it, but certainly not
01:11:44
reflective of the larger administration or their posture. And I think ultimately what has been
01:11:48
signaled both during the campaign and as well as by who he's putting into these places from
01:11:53
from Pete Hegsiv on down, that the affinity for Russia is not just, you know, sort of a geopolitical
01:12:01
worldview or that they've sort of been fed a sort of right from the ground up because they are
01:12:07
consumers of the right-wing media. What Russia has been doing with our information landscape for
01:12:12
quite a while and sort of seeding the ground, but that we should also, we shouldn't lose that of the
01:12:15
fact that there's an affinity there, which is born out of the idea that Russia is an ethno-nationalist
01:12:19
state. And that is one of the biggest appeals that Tucker sort of pushed into it, which is this idea
01:12:24
that like with like that you then might makes right. And that was one of the things that Tucker was
01:12:29
advocating for when he was on Fox when he was holding it up as an exemplary. So yes, we have to know
01:12:33
who our enemies are. Russia's never heard us, but more importantly, look how well their society is
01:12:37
doing because they embrace ethno-nationalism. And if you put that in the context of all their
01:12:42
attacks on D.I. And all these other issues that they're having, it does sort of boil down to this
01:12:47
core idea that there's something there in Russia that is, that is, if not aspirational for them,
01:12:55
at least something that we should take and incorporate into our society. And so Marco Rubio
01:12:59
is not going to have a lot of influence or power in the broader administration. And I feel like
01:13:03
everybody knows that. Director John Brennan, Frank Fagluzzi, thank you for starting us off
01:13:08
today. Angela sticks around a little bit longer with us when we come back for months. Donald Trump
01:13:13
tried to run from the deeply unpopular extreme far-right blueprint known as Project 2025,
01:13:19
saying things like what? I don't know anything about Project 2025, but now of course a completely
01:13:26
different story as he considers Project 2025's architect for a top job in his administration. We'll
01:13:32
bring that story next. I have nothing to do with Project 2025. That's out there. I haven't read it.
01:13:45
I don't want to read it purposely. I'm not going to read it. This was a group of people that got
01:13:49
together. They came up with some ideas. I guess some good, some bad, but it makes no difference. I have
01:13:54
nothing to do. Everybody knows I'm an open book. Everybody knows what I'm going to do. The idea that
01:14:02
Trump had nothing to do with Project 2025 never read it had no idea what was in it. I've never seen
01:14:09
these people before. It was of course never the whole truth. No matter how many times he repeated
01:14:15
it during the campaign because it became so unpopular. Well, as if we needed more proof of that,
01:14:21
Trump is now welcoming one of the chief architects of Project 2025's 900 page radical,
01:14:28
deeply polarizing an unpopular agenda to potentially play a starring high profile role in his
01:14:35
new administration. ABC News is reporting this quote, Russ Vott, who authored a chapter on executive
01:14:43
office of the president for Project 2025's mandate for leadership. The conservative promise is
01:14:49
under consideration for a cabinet level position. In the next administration, it has been vetted by
01:14:55
Trump's transition team sources say they add this, but not only authored a chapter, but he was also
01:15:01
deeply involved in drafting Project 2025's playbook for the first 180 days of a new Trump administration.
01:15:09
He's now one of several Project 2025 alums being considered for crucial high profile roles in the
01:15:17
Trump cabinet. Joining our conversation is former congressman from Florida, MSNBC political analyst David
01:15:22
Jolly, Angelo Carison is still with us. David Jolly, your thoughts. Look, in normal political times,
01:15:31
even if you take the Republican Revolution of the 90s in their contract with America, a lot of
01:15:35
this would be policy debate about the role of government and the role of federal agencies
01:15:40
and what we spend money on. But in a Trump era of politics, it is now laced with this idea of a
01:15:46
powerful unitary executive where the author of Project 2025, Donald Trump might say he didn't know
01:15:52
anything about it, but he's hiring all the people who wrote it. And so their view of government,
01:15:56
the people that he is surrounding himself, you know, the old Axiom and politics, personnel as
01:16:00
policy, Donald Trump is surrounding himself with people who have very aggressive constitutional ideas
01:16:07
as well as very aggressive views of the role of government. And simply on the ladder, they would be
01:16:12
happy to kind of pull the rug out for most government services if they could get that through Congress.
01:16:18
But even what they can't get through Congress is where a lot of the people who created Project 2025
01:16:23
that are clearly now in Donald Trump's inner circle, the idea of a powerful unitary executive,
01:16:30
or the idea that the president himself is now vested with all of these powers is something that
01:16:36
used to be a nathema to Republicans. If you go back to the 90s to the contract with America,
01:16:41
it was about resisting additional powers to the presidency, keeping them within Congress,
01:16:46
that that was truer to the vision of how we founded the nation when we broke from a monarch.
01:16:51
But under Project 2025, and Donald Trump's penchant for wrestling control to his own
01:16:57
resolute desk, if you will, and not letting any control sit out even among the administrative
01:17:02
agencies that traditionally had power, that's where this begins to test some real constitutional
01:17:08
limits. And the one thing about Project 2025, these are not dumb people. They are ready to test the
01:17:14
constitutional limits, and they believe that they have a court system now that will probably grant
01:17:18
them their blessings. Angela, the only possible slowing mechanism is it's deeply unpopular.
01:17:28
And I want to show you Fox News is breaking the news. No, Donald Trump does not have a mandate.
01:17:37
We're going to pull that up. Here's what Brigham said on Fox News. Mandates, real mandates are rare,
01:17:45
and landslides are even rarer. The president would be wise to ignore the talk from his supporters
01:17:51
about what an enormous mandate he has, and what a great landslide he won, because thinking
01:17:56
that can lead to trouble. Thinking you have a mandate and proceeding with the deeply unpopular
01:18:03
Project 2025 feels like a recipe for Trumpian disaster. I mean, I'd like to think so. What I would
01:18:14
just note at the top, and I'm not dismissing that, because I think that's a reality that we have to
01:18:18
keep reminding over and over again. Part of the reason why we're even having to point out that
01:18:23
the slimeness of the outcome is not necessarily a mandate, is because for the past few weeks,
01:18:28
the word has been happening in right media more broadly and over and over and over again is reverberating
01:18:33
echoing this idea that it was this that it was this massive mandate that the victory was so
01:18:37
significant and total that it was a reflection of the popular will of the people. And as a result of
01:18:41
that, he has to go full steam ahead with all these promises and directives. And so we're already
01:18:46
dealing with a landscape and a narrative that is that is deeply setting in. And so now we're
01:18:51
working uphill, but we shouldn't lose sight of that. But as you know, you're right. It isn't,
01:18:56
it is deeply unpopular. It always was. And there's a lot of assumptions that have been played out,
01:19:00
that he's not going to do many of the things that he said he was going to do, which is how some people
01:19:04
sort of made those last minute decisions, because they thought, he's authentic. He said some things
01:19:09
we're not going to do those things. But what I would know, and this is the part that's on especially
01:19:14
unsettling, it amongst all the picks we've talked about so far, far. All the others have all kinds
01:19:18
of deficiencies and issues and concerns and anxieties. The thing about Roosevelt that scares me a lot
01:19:24
is that he has the plan. He didn't just, you know, help drive the 900 page document that everybody
01:19:30
knows about. As you noted, he has that 180 day agenda. He was the author of the private document,
01:19:35
and it isn't just a step by step guide. One of the things that he that it includes is at least
01:19:40
350 specific documents, draft memos, individual instruction, executive orders, all agency notes,
01:19:46
all the legal work that has to be done for a series of directives. And what he has been crystal
01:19:51
clear about from the beginning is that when they come in, they're going to rapidly engage in a
01:19:55
mass deportation effort. And part of that is to fulfill that promise. Part of that is to elicit
01:20:00
a backlash that they can smash and grab and sort of shock people into submission. And then the
01:20:04
last thing he's said, he's been saying it repeatedly, not just once or twice, is that one of the goals
01:20:09
here in these initial six months is to end multiculturalism in America, that the era of multiculturalism
01:20:15
has to end, as well as the independence of these agencies. And that's where they get scary,
01:20:20
that we are not just going to be able to rely on the boomerang effect of not having sort of the
01:20:25
popular mandate, because they sort of know that it's not popular and are baking that in to their
01:20:30
plans. And we have the advantage now of knowing this is about to happen, and that's where we have
01:20:34
to start putting some more antibodies into the system. I want to press you on what that looks like,
01:20:39
and what that means for us. The people holding up a mirror to what's happening in the country,
01:20:44
I have to seek in a quick break first, we'll be right back. If we're not fearless at the point of
01:20:52
attack, if we don't have courage, then we will step away from the battle. It will be convenient
01:20:57
not to be there. But our view is that that's where the country needs us, and we're not going to be,
01:21:01
we're not going to save our country without a little confrontation. So that is Russ Boat, David
01:21:06
Jolly. With whom is the confrontation? Is it with the government? Is it with the agencies? What is he
01:21:15
talking about there? I think it's with the American people. I mean, I think what Russ Boat and others
01:21:22
know that Donald Trump doesn't, is this is a ideological fight. Donald Trump doesn't know what he
01:21:27
wants to do as president. He just wants to succeed or pretend like he succeeded and he wants to be
01:21:32
worshiped. But he also listens to the last person who's got his ear, and if someone like Russ
01:21:36
Boat or others says this is the direction we should go, they'll probably go in that direction. And,
01:21:40
you pointed out earlier, Nicole, much of Project 2025's agenda is deeply unpopular. That's why there's
01:21:46
a confrontation that Russ Boat is suggesting we have to have. And I would say this, let's welcome
01:21:52
their confrontation, because Angela is exactly right. This was not a mandate. This was roughly 50
01:21:57
to 48. The 48% of the country that fought for values that are different than Russ Boat's and
01:22:02
Donald Trump's. This is not a time to all of a sudden resign and give equity to Donald Trump
01:22:06
and recognize that maybe he has some good ideas as well. No, Trump is still a threat to the country.
01:22:12
And just because the resistance was to Donald Trump was ineffective in 24,
01:22:16
doesn't mean the battle is lost, the war is lost. I mean, the people who push back on Donald Trump
01:22:21
effectively were successful in 18 and 20 and 22, but understandably not successful in 2024. This
01:22:27
is not a time to give up. This is a time to persist and persist every day fighting for the values
01:22:33
that are right for the future of the country. Donald Trump and Russ Boat and others will have their
01:22:38
hands at the levers for the next four years, but if there is no push back whatsoever, they will be
01:22:43
able to accomplish everything in Project 2025. If those who gave voice the last eight years in
01:22:48
resisting Trumpism, remain vocal, fight for the future of the country, their implementation of
01:22:54
their agenda gets much, much harder, particularly those pieces that have to go through the House and
01:22:59
go through the Senate where they may or may not have the votes to do so. This is not a time to give
01:23:03
up. This is not a time to give equity to Donald Trump. This is a time to fight like it's 2016
01:23:08
all over again, because in four short years, this race probably looks very different. That 50-48
01:23:14
outcome looks very favorable for Democrats coming off a very unpopular four years of Donald Trump.
01:23:19
Let me actually show you the results. Now that most of the counting is done, Donald Trump
01:23:26
ticking just below 50 percent. There are David Jellie, 49.9 percent. Rachel Zincomo-Harris at 48.2 percent.
01:23:34
Obviously, Trump's still the winner of the popular vote in an electoral
01:23:42
land side, but swept the election, the battleground states. But this warning from Brett Hume is intriguing
01:23:50
to me in this regard. Winners always misread their mandates. In '04, I think when George W. Bush won,
01:24:01
there was a sense that he had a mandate for comprehensive immigration reform and the privatization
01:24:05
of Social Security. There was no comprehensive immigration reform and Social Security has never
01:24:11
been privatized. I mean, it happens when you lose as well to David Jellie's point,
01:24:17
mistreating a mandate of defeat that everything was so wildly unpopular, you scrap everything.
01:24:24
I mean, this is still, this is a country almost completely cleaved into two. To your great reporting,
01:24:30
consuming totally different information, to totally different sets of facts, to totally
01:24:36
different sets of reality, that impact everything from climate change to the weather, to the military,
01:24:42
to just about everything in American life. What are your thoughts sort of heading into the last
01:24:48
stretch here before Trump grabs the levers of power in terms of how sort of fact-based
01:24:56
earth-1 interests are organized and promoted? Yeah, I mean, this is the part that's so,
01:25:03
you know, the dynamics that you just played out, they recognize just a bridge of this from what
01:25:08
we were talking about before. So, I mean, he allikens this period right now to 1776 or 1860,
01:25:14
the Civil War. In fact, when he talks about the policy is that he was putting together the plans,
01:25:19
he mentions it. Internally, when he talks about it, that it is, he was drafting them in mind with
01:25:24
a country that is reflective of 1860. He's aware of the dynamics that played. You know, on the public
01:25:29
side, they may talk about a mandate and massive landslide and they may build that narrative on a house
01:25:35
of cards, but internally, when they're really thinking about how they execute and drive an agenda,
01:25:40
they are seeing the landscape clear-ride, that it is a fairly balanced country that a lot of the
01:25:45
things that they're going to be pushing through are not going to be popular. And that's where I think
01:25:49
about this moment, which is, we know what's in front of us, what's about to happen. We have to sort of
01:25:54
one, start to name it plainly and clearly to anticipate it, not to be hysterical, not to feed into
01:25:59
impotency, not to make people feel so powerless or scared that they disengage, that they retreat,
01:26:03
that they duck and cover, because that's not going to serve anybody well. What this is a time for
01:26:09
is clarity of purpose, stiffening our minds a little bit, and being clear on about what they're saying,
01:26:13
because a lot of what they're going to do is going to hurt people, or that people are not going to
01:26:17
really like it. And the task for the media, for the public, for all individuals in this moment
01:26:22
is to be able to identify when that starts to happen, why it's happening, who it's affecting,
01:26:27
and where those decisions came from. And that's going to be a responsibility, as the last election
01:26:31
illustrated, that goes far beyond sort of the main news media, but it's going to be an individual
01:26:37
effort, not to name and shame, individuals for what they voted or what they supported, but to help
01:26:41
people understand why the things that are happening in this moment, and why they're being driven.
01:26:46
And that's going to be the process that we go through step by step. And the thing that I think is
01:26:50
very important and the most significant thing is not stepping on any bear traps. They are designing
01:26:56
an agenda, as I noted, that is anticipating a certain degree of backlash that they can implement
01:27:02
an insurrection act that is going to help create and so that they can fuel impotency fast and hard.
01:27:07
And for us, that's my horizon point, is clarity of purpose, but also making sure that anything I do
01:27:12
day to day, both in my own personal life and also in my public work, is not fueling that impotency,
01:27:17
because that is what they're all counting on in order to take advantage of the dynamics that they
01:27:21
articulated. All right, I think you just articulated our mission for our next segment on these topics,
01:27:28
sort of anticipating just based on what they've set out loud and what they've put in writing.
01:27:33
So I'll put you both on notice. We need to pick this up another day. David Jolly and Angela
01:27:38
Karrison to be continued. Another break for us will be right back. Today, a majority of officials on
01:27:48
the Texas State Board of Education signal their support for a new school curriculum that has been
01:27:55
under intense scrutiny in recent months for its heavy inclusion of biblical teachings,
01:28:00
testing the limits of religion's presence in public education. Critics argue the curriculum's
01:28:06
lessons allude to Christianity more than any other religion, undermine church state separation,
01:28:12
and grant the state far-reaching control over how children learn about religion. The Texas Tribune
01:28:18
points this out, quote, "The choice to adopt the materials will remain with districts, but the
01:28:24
state will offer an incentive of $60 for student to districts that choose to adopt the lessons,
01:28:30
which could appeal to some as school struggle financially after several years without a
01:28:35
significant raise in state funding. An official vote on the curriculum is expected Friday will
01:28:41
stay on top of that. Another break for us will be right back."
01:28:44
Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful.
01:28:53
MSNBC Films presents a new four-part series from NBC News Studios that exposes the injustices of
01:28:59
wrongful convictions. The Sing Sing Chronicles. First two episodes premiere Saturday at 9 p.m.
01:29:05
Eastern on MSNBC.