Podcast Episode 142

Is your church facing the difficult decision to sell or repurpose property? We speak with Mark Elsdon, editor of Gone for Good?, about how a congregation can pursue creative uses of church property in a way that avoids common pitfalls and propels their mission forward.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | YouTube Music | Spotify

Watch on YouTube



Read in-depth interview

Transcript — Click or Tap to Read

Announcer: Leading Ideas Talks is brought to you by the Lewis Center for Leadership of Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, DC. Subscribe free to our weekly e-newsletter, Leading Ideas, at churchleadership.com/leadingideas.

Your capital budget isn’t just about facilities — it’s about using your facilities to further your church’s mission. The Building and Funding Your Capital Budget Video Tool Kit shares best practices to help you understand what a capital budget is, how to engage the big questions about your church, and how to assess your current situation. No matter your church size, this resource provides clues and wisdom to help your capital budget advance your mission and accomplish God’s vision for your congregation. Learn more now at churchleadership.com/capitalbudget.

Is your church facing the difficult decision to sell or repurpose property? We speak with Mark Elsdon, editor of Gone for Good?, about how a congregation can pursue creative uses of church property in a way that avoids common pitfalls and propels their mission forward.

Ann Michel: Welcome to Leading Ideas Talks. I’m Ann Michel. I’m a senior consultant with the Lewis Center for Church Leadership of Wesley Theological Seminary. I’m also one of the editors of our e-newsletter Leading Ideas. I am so delighted to be the host of this episode of Leading Ideas Talks.

My guest today is Mark Elsdon, who’s an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church, USA. He’s the author of two books on how churches and faith-based institutions can use their property assets for good. The first book came out in 2021, and it’s We Aren’t Broke: Uncovering Hidden Resources for Mission and Ministry. He has a new book released this year, Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transactions. So, welcome to you, Mark.

Mark Elsdon: Good to be here.

Ann Michel: So, in reading your first book, or your earlier book I should say, We Aren’t Broke, I was somewhat surprised to learn that your entrée into this field of real estate transactions and how faith institutions can use their property creatively to carry their mission forward came when you were serving as a campus minister at the University of Wisconsin. Just to kind of bring our listeners into your world, can you very briefly share what you did in that context?

Mark Elsdon: I’m actually here right now in my office at the university, or at Pres House. I’ve been an executive director and was campus pastor for 20 years here at Pres House, the Presbyterian affiliated campus ministry center at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. My wife Erica Liu and I were called here together, and we came into a situation where the ministry was essentially empty, dead, sort of in a fallow period, you might say. It had a very storied hundred-year history, but at the moment we arrived, there were zero students involved and so we set about rebuilding the program and raising some money. To vastly simplify the story, we did in the end develop a $17 million, seven-story student housing facility that is home for about 240 students on the parking lot that was connected to the historic chapel building. Now this is a private entity, not university affiliated. But we’re right in the heart of the university.

Ann Michel: You hear of these things happening in churches, but your book was the first time I’d heard of something like this in a campus ministry setting. I thought it was so interesting that you got started in this way. To put this in a larger context, I think all of us who are following this area have seen projections of how many churches might close in the coming decades or how many other churches have property assets that no longer fit the current reality of their ministry. So, I wanted to ask you, how big do you think this phenomenon of church property transitions is likely to be?

Mark Elsdon: I think if the projections are even half what they’re saying — which is a hundred thousand churches or properties related to churches potentially closing or changing use in the next decade — if it’s even half that or even a quarter of that, it’s a huge number. It’s tens of thousands. It’s sort of inevitable when you look at the trajectory of involvement in church activity or at least traditional church activity, right? You know, the Pew study shows less than fifty percent, maybe even thirty percent, of Americans will affiliate with the Christian faith by 2070. That’s going to, of course, immediately ripple into the real estate that’s related to churches. I’d be happy if I’m wrong and if the others that are projecting this are wrong. But I think it’s going to be massive. I think it’s going to be a massive, massive sea change.

Ann Michel: You know, it seems to me that it’s not just a matter of declining attendance in churches. But it’s also that even in healthy and thriving churches, the nature of ministry is becoming less place based. I think about, in my own church, how many groups are now done on Zoom and how many staff are working from home for some part of the week. It’s just really changed the way churches use their property, even if they are in a healthy place.

Mark Elsdon: Yeah, and in fact, I always encourage healthy churches to think about this now because then they have the opportunity to actually do exciting, new things versus crisis management or closing management, which is important, too. But yeah, absolutely. I think in addition to what you’re describing, there are also just different ways of engaging the Christian faith. For many decades, it was quite traditional in the sense that people would come on Sunday morning for worship and then go down the hall for Sunday school and come for a

Wednesday meal or something midweek, you know. That kind of pattern has changed a great deal. Some of that’s gone online. Some of that’s gone remote. Some of it is just people who want to engage in a different way.

Ann Michel: More community engagement, too.

Mark Elsdon: Yeah, exactly.

Ann Michel: So, in high-priced urban real estate markets, like where I live in downtown Washington, D.C., a lot of churches, at least forward-thinking churches, have been engaged in creative redevelopment or creative use of their property for several decades. Gone for Good? is a compilation of chapters written by a very diverse group of church leaders, civic leaders, and real estate and planning professionals in a variety of different contexts. I think you probably have a better sense than I do of the opportunities and challenges in different areas of the country — rural, urban, suburban. How do