Kate didn't plan to measure their burnout by the number of bags of pink-and-purple Mother's animal cookies consumed at their desk…but here we are. Kim's clue was a rotating cycle of stomach aches and "maybe these aren't panic attacks but the room is definitely spinning." And our guest, Norlander Wilson, talks about showing up to work without showering or brushing her teeth for days because she literally couldn't.

This one is about burnout at work — not the "I need a weekend off" kind, but the kind that rewires your nervous system and convinces you you're the problem.

About our guest:
Norlander Wilson is an experimental psychologist and an orbit disruptor by calling. She is the founder and CEO of Becoma, an operational strategy firm that helps leaders, creatives, and organizations move from survival mode into clearer systems and healthier energy. Through her work, Norlander blends psychology, strategy, and system design to challenge the patterns that keep people stuck and to create ways of working that don't require self-sacrifice. She's also the host of the podcast "She Don't Work Like That, No More," where she unpacks wounded leadership patterns and reimagines what it means to build, lead, and live without breaking yourself in the process.

The theme today: burnout at work, and how project managers — the people everyone counts on — get trapped in it.

Norlander doesn't sugarcoat it:
"Burnout is a collective conversation, especially in an organization."

She calls out how burnout starts at the top. If leadership pushes 100 hours, teams assume they should push 150. If leaders are exhausted, their teams are exhausted.

Burnout isn't a personal failing; it's a system failure — and PMs often absorb the blast radius.

Kate opens up about their 2024 breakdown:
crying daily, losing appetite except for cookies, medical leave, and the creeping belief that if they just tried harder, they could fix everything. Kim shares his own burnout and the helpless feeling of watching teammates slide into it — seeing that "day-five-I-haven't-showered look" on Zoom and wanting to save them.

And then there's the half-million-dollar moment.

Kate negotiated nearly $500,000/year in compensation and turned it down because walking into the building made them feel sick. Not metaphorically — physically.
"I'm not getting on that wheel unless I want to."

Norlander validates it:
"If it's profound burnout and everything triggers you at that job, yes, it's time to leave."

She gives language PMs desperately need:

• Capacity check-ins, not productivity interrogations

• Systems that hold boundaries so you don't have to

• Stop parenting grown adults at work — "You are not an emotional container."

• Let people fail so they learn the consequence, not you

Kim connects it to the "mouse on the wheel" experiment — the difference between choosing to run and being forced to run. The stress chemicals — literally — are not the same.

Norlander's tools for burnout prevention and burnout recovery:

• Audit your systems quarterly

• Build boundaries into SOPs

• Protect scheduled joy like you protect deadlines

• Delegate to the system, not your nervous system

Kate shares how protecting Tuesday riding lessons became non-negotiable. Not because horseback riding is magic (although…it kind of is), but because no one else will protect your time but you.

Norlander's toast at the end is the line we're all putting on sticky notes:
"When you do find your boundary… don't compromise it for anyone."

If burnout at work is starting to feel familiar — if you're living on cookies, caffeine, and dread — pull up a chair. You're not lazy. You're not failing. The system is failing you.

And if you're tired of carrying the emotional labor for your entire project team, come get some backup and community. Join us at: https://pmhappyhour.com/membership
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