#753: Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly
4Digest
Derek Sivers and Kevin Kelly discuss the importance of finding your unique skill set, embracing creative destruction, and the value of long-term thinking. Kelly shares his experiences with living as if he only had six months left and his fascination with indigenous use of plant medicine. He emphasizes the importance of asking yourself what you would do if you had six months left to live and what you would do if you had a billion dollars, and how the intersection of those two questions can guide your life choices. Kelly also discusses his unconventional career path and the importance of exploration and experimentation, highlighting the "Creators Dilemma" of balancing optimizing strengths with venturing into the unknown. He encourages individuals to embrace creative destruction and use it as a force to push themselves into new directions. Kelly also shares his perspective on religion and its role in his life, explaining how it gives him permission to think about cosmic questions and the future of technology. He discusses his fascination with indigenous use of plant medicine and the transformative experiences he has had with it. Kelly also shares his thoughts on having children, arguing that privileged individuals should have children because they can bestow many privileges and opportunities on them. He also discusses the importance of having a strong community and family, drawing on his experiences with the Amish community. Kelly emphasizes the importance of taking technological sabbaticals and the benefits of disconnecting from technology to gain a renewed perspective. He also discusses the importance of long-term thinking and the role of the Long Now Foundation in fostering that perspective. Kelly shares his favorite books and documentaries, including "Shantaram" and "Man on Wire." He also discusses his morning rituals and habits, including reading the New York Times and taking pictures with a camera every day. Kelly emphasizes the importance of having a variety of hobbies and dabbling in different things, and he shares his experience with building his own workshop and the importance of First Order Access. He concludes by discussing the importance of building your own house as a way to discover and create yourself. Kelly also shares his thoughts on the importance of hiring professionals and the benefits of working with people who are really good at what they do. He emphasizes that it is not a weakness to hire professionals, but rather a way to leverage their expertise and amplify your own goals. He also discusses the importance of finding the right people to work with, and he shares his experience with finding a librarian who is both a researcher and an administrator. Kelly encourages listeners to explore the world of podcasts and to find new and interesting content to listen to. He also shares his website and email address, and he recommends his book "Cool Tools" as a resource for finding useful and interesting tools and resources.
Outlines
Introduction and Sponsor Message
This Chapter introduces the episode and features a sponsor message for AG1, a daily foundational nutritional supplement.
Introduction and Super Combo Episodes
This Chapter introduces the episode and explains the concept of "Super Combo Episodes" which feature pairings of guests from the Tim Ferris Show's 10-year anniversary.
Derek Sivers: Circus Clown and Entrepreneur
This Chapter features Derek Sivers, a former musician and entrepreneur, who shares his experiences as a circus clown and the lessons he learned about confidence, performance, and the importance of saying "hell yeah" or "no" to opportunities.
Sponsor Message: Wealthfront
This Chapter features a sponsor message for Wealthfront, an app that helps you save and invest your money.
Kevin Kelly: Ideas, Exploration, and the Creators Dilemma
This Chapter features Kevin Kelly, founding executive editor of Wired magazine, who discusses his unconventional career path, the importance of exploration and experimentation, and the creators dilemma of balancing optimizing strengths with venturing into the unknown.
Finding Your Unique Skill Set and Embracing Creative Destruction
This Chapter explores the importance of finding your unique skill set and embracing creative destruction. Kelly shares his experiences with living as if he only had six months left and his fascination with indigenous use of plant medicine. He emphasizes the importance of asking yourself what you would do if you had six months left to live and what you would do if you had a billion dollars, and how the intersection of those two questions can guide your life choices.
The Long Now Foundation and Long-Term Thinking
This Chapter discusses the Long Now Foundation and its mission to foster long-term thinking and responsibility. Kelly explains the foundation's various projects, including the 10,000-year clock, the Rosetta Project, and the Revive & Restore project. He emphasizes the importance of thinking about the long term and working on projects that may take longer than your own lifetime to accomplish.
Morning Rituals and Habits
This Chapter explores the importance of morning rituals and habits. Kelly shares his own morning routine, which includes reading the New York Times and taking pictures with a camera every day. He emphasizes the importance of consistency and having a routine that works for you.
The Importance of Hobbies and Dabbling
This Chapter discusses the importance of having a variety of hobbies and dabbling in different things. Kelly shares his own experiences with dabbling in various hobbies, including building stone walls, doing origami, making beer and wine, and homeschooling his children. He emphasizes the importance of trying new things and learning from your experiences.
Building Your Own House as a Way to Discover and Create Yourself
This Chapter explores the importance of building your own house as a way to discover and create yourself. Kelly shares his own experience with building a house from scratch and the empowering nature of knowing that you can do it. He emphasizes that a well-designed house should reflect who you are and what you want to do with your life.
Hiring Professionals and Finding the Right People
This Chapter discusses the importance of hiring professionals and the benefits of working with people who are really good at what they do. Kelly emphasizes that it is not a weakness to hire professionals, but rather a way to leverage their expertise and amplify your own goals. He also discusses the importance of finding the right people to work with, and he shares his experience with finding a librarian who is both a researcher and an administrator.
Final Thoughts and Advice
This Chapter concludes the episode with Kevin Kelly sharing his final thoughts and advice for listeners. He encourages listeners to explore the world of podcasts and to find new and interesting content to listen to. He also shares his website and email address, and he recommends his book "Cool Tools" as a resource for finding useful and interesting tools and resources.
Five Bullet Friday Newsletter
This Chapter features a sponsor message for Tim Ferriss's Five Bullet Friday newsletter, a weekly email that provides a little fun before the weekend. The newsletter shares the coolest things Tim has found or discovered or has started exploring over that week.
Sponsor Message: Helix Sleep
This Chapter features a sponsor message for Helix Sleep, a premium mattress brand that provides tailored mattresses based on your sleep preferences.
Sponsor Message: AG1
This Chapter features a sponsor message for AG1, a daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health.
Keywords
Derek Sivers
Derek Sivers is a former musician, programmer, TED speaker, circus clown, and entrepreneur. He is best known for founding CD Baby, a music distribution company he sold for $22 million and gave all the money to charity. He is also the author of several books on philosophy and entrepreneurship, including "How to Live," "Hell Yeah or No," "Anything You Want," and "Useful Not True." Sivers is known for his unconventional approach to business and his emphasis on simplicity and authenticity.
Kevin Kelly
Kevin Kelly is a founding executive editor of Wired magazine, a former editor and publisher of the Whole Earth Review, and a bestselling author of books on technology and culture. He is known for his insightful observations on the impact of technology on society and his exploration of the intersection of technology, culture, and human behavior. Kelly is also a prominent figure in the quantified self movement, which promotes the use of technology to track and understand personal data.
Creators Dilemma
The "Creators Dilemma" is a concept that describes the challenge faced by creators and innovators in balancing optimizing their existing strengths with venturing into new and uncharted territories. It is often framed as a choice between pursuing excellence in known areas or investing in the unknown, which may lead to greater innovation but also carries a higher risk of failure. This dilemma is particularly relevant in rapidly changing environments where established expertise may become obsolete.
Long Now Foundation
The Long Now Foundation is a non-profit organization founded in 1996 by Stewart Brand, with the mission to foster long-term thinking and responsibility in the framework of the next 10,000 years. The foundation is known for its various projects, including the 10,000-year clock, the Rosetta Project, and the Revive & Restore project. The Long Now Foundation aims to encourage individuals and society to think about the long-term consequences of their actions and to work on projects that may take longer than their own lifetime to accomplish.
Indigenous Plant Medicine
Indigenous plant medicine refers to the traditional use of plants for medicinal purposes by indigenous cultures around the world. These practices have been passed down through generations and are often based on a deep understanding of the properties of plants and their effects on the human body. Indigenous plant medicine is often used to treat a wide range of ailments, from physical illnesses to mental and spiritual imbalances. It is important to note that the use of plant medicine should be approached with caution and respect for traditional knowledge and practices.
Technological Sabbaticals
Technological sabbaticals are periods of time during which individuals intentionally disconnect from technology to gain a renewed perspective and to reduce their reliance on technology. These sabbaticals can involve taking a break from social media, email, smartphones, and other digital devices. The goal of a technological sabbatical is to reconnect with oneself, with nature, and with other people in a more meaningful way. Technological sabbaticals can be beneficial for both mental and physical health, and they can help individuals to develop a more balanced relationship with technology.
First Order Access
First Order Access is a principle for organizing workshops and workspaces, popularized by Adam Savage, that emphasizes the importance of having everything you need readily accessible and visible. This means that tools and materials should be stored in a way that allows for easy access and visibility, without having to search through multiple layers of storage. First Order Access can help to improve efficiency and productivity by reducing the time spent searching for tools and materials. It can also help to create a more organized and visually appealing workspace.
Amish Community
The Amish are a Christian religious group known for their simple lifestyle and their rejection of modern technology. They are often found in rural areas of the United States and Canada, where they live in close-knit communities and practice traditional farming methods. The Amish are known for their distinctive dress, their horse-drawn buggies, and their commitment to community and family. They are also known for their selective adoption of technology, choosing to use only those technologies that they believe will not disrupt their way of life.
Shantaram
"Shantaram" is a novel by Gregory David Roberts, published in 2003. The book is a semi-autobiographical account of the author's experiences as a fugitive in India. The story follows Lin Ford, a former bank robber who escapes from prison in Australia and flees to Mumbai, where he becomes involved in the city's underworld. The book is known for its vivid descriptions of India, its complex characters, and its exploration of themes of redemption, spirituality, and the search for meaning in life.
Man on Wire
"Man on Wire" is a 2008 documentary film directed by James Marsh. The film tells the story of Philippe Petit, a French high-wire artist who illegally walked on a tightrope between the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in 1974. The film is known for its stunning visuals, its suspenseful narrative, and its exploration of Petit's audacious feat and his artistic vision.
Q&A
What is the "Hell Yeah or No" philosophy and how did Derek Sivers apply it in his life?
The "Hell Yeah or No" philosophy is a decision-making framework that encourages individuals to only say yes to opportunities that they are truly excited about. Sivers applied this by saying no to almost everything, allowing him to prioritize and create space for truly fulfilling opportunities.
How did Derek Sivers manage to delegate almost all of his work at CD Baby and only spend four hours every six months on it?
Sivers systematized operations and taught his employees the philosophy behind his decisions, creating a self-sustaining system that allowed him to step away from the day-to-day operations.
What is the "Creators Dilemma" and how does it relate to finding your unique skill set?
The "Creators Dilemma" is the challenge of balancing optimizing existing strengths with venturing into new and uncharted territories. Finding your unique skill set often involves exploring new areas, even if they are outside of your comfort zone, which can be difficult for successful individuals who are accustomed to focusing on their strengths.
Why does Kevin Kelly believe that money is overrated?
Kelly argues that true fulfillment comes from pursuing meaningful experiences and relationships, rather than accumulating wealth. He believes that technological progress is diminishing the role of money and that there are other routes to happiness and satisfaction that are deeper and more durable than money.
What advice would Kevin Kelly give to someone in their mid-30s who is feeling pressured to optimize their current success but wants to explore new areas?
Kelly encourages individuals to embrace creative destruction and use it as a force to push themselves into new directions. He emphasizes that it is difficult to let go of success but that it is necessary for continued growth and exploration.
What is the Long Now Foundation and what is its purpose?
The Long Now Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to fostering long-term thinking and responsibility. It aims to encourage individuals and society to think about the long-term consequences of their actions and to work on projects that may take longer than their own lifetime to accomplish.
What are some of the benefits of taking technological sabbaticals?
Technological sabbaticals can help individuals to reconnect with themselves, with nature, and with other people in a more meaningful way. They can also be beneficial for both mental and physical health, and they can help individuals to develop a more balanced relationship with technology.
What is First Order Access and how can it be applied to organizing a workspace?
First Order Access is a principle for organizing workshops and workspaces that emphasizes the importance of having everything you need readily accessible and visible. This means that tools and materials should be stored in a way that allows for easy access and visibility, without having to search through multiple layers of storage. First Order Access can help to improve efficiency and productivity by reducing the time spent searching for tools and materials. It can also help to create a more organized and visually appealing workspace.
Why does Kevin Kelly believe that building your own house is an important experience for every human?
Kelly believes that building your own house is an empowering experience that can help individuals to discover and create themselves. He argues that a well-designed house should reflect who you are and what you want to do with your life.
Why does Kevin Kelly believe that hiring professionals is not a weakness?
Kelly believes that hiring professionals is a way to leverage their expertise and amplify your own goals. He argues that it is not a weakness to hire people who are really good at what they do, but rather a way to achieve more and be more efficient.
Show Notes
This episode is a two-for-one, and that’s because the podcast recently hit its 10-year anniversary and passed one billion downloads. To celebrate, I’ve curated some of the best of the best—some of my favorites—from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. The episode features segments from episode "Derek Sivers on Developing Confidence, Finding Happiness, and Saying No to Millions" and "Interview of Kevin Kelly, Co-Founder of WIRED, Polymath, Most Interesting Man In The World?"
Please enjoy!
Sponsors:
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Helix Sleep premium mattresses: https://HelixSleep.com/Tim (25–30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows)
AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://DrinkAG1.com/Tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase.)
Timestamps:
[00:00 ] Start
[05:47 ] Notes about this supercombo format.
[06:50 ] Enter Derek Sivers.
[07:20 ] From pig show busker to circus ringleader.
[10:42 ] Derek's framework for developing confidence.
[13:05 ] "The standard pace is for chumps."
[18:51 ] Relaxing for the same result.
[24:01 ] The origins of "HELL YEAH! or no."
[26:25 ] "Busy" implies a life out of control.
[28:03 ] What inspired the automation of CD Baby?
[33:22 ] Derek's billboard.
[34:32 ] Good advice at any age: "Don't be a donkey."
[40:24 ] Enter Kevin Kelly.
[41:02 ] Kevin's biggest regret.
[43:13 ] Finding contentment in minimalism and "voluntary simplicity" without starving to death.
[50:33 ] Kevin's epiphany when he embraced writing as a late bloomer.
[56:40 ] Why Kevin promised himself he would never resort to teaching English while traveling abroad.
[59:07 ] Finding purpose through resilience and the creator's dilemma.
[1:06:50 ] Why the appeal of being a billionaire is overrated.
[1:11:05 ] Middle-aged optimization.
[1:15:28 ] Realizations following a "six months until death" challenge.
[1:20:08 ] Kevin's Kickstarter-funded project linking angels and robots.
[1:22:41 ] Why a self-proclaimed ex-hippie waited until his 50th birthday to try LSD for the first time.
[1:28:43 ] Why a population implosion is probable in the next 100 years.
[1:36:05 ] The greatest gift you can give to your child.
[1:38:21 ] The criteria for Amish technology assimilation.
[1:45:03 ] What technology-free sabbaticals can do for you.
[1:48:53 ] Long Now Foundation's vision of a better civilization.
[1:53:33 ] The graphic novel teaching young people how to become indispensable.
[1:54:52 ] An antidote to misguided "follow your passion" advice.
[1:56:44 ] Kevin's favorite fiction book.
[1:59:15 ] The resource Kevin compiled for documentary lovers.
[2:02:47 ] A name Kevin considers synonymous with "success" (and why success is overrated).
[2:05:46 ] What Kevin would change about himself.
[2:07:59 ] Daily rituals.
[2:10:44 ] How Kevin accumulated enough books to fill a two-story library.
[2:15:19 ] How Adam Savage from MythBusters transformed Kevin's method of organization.
[2:17:14 ] The project everyone should undertake at least once in life.
[2:19:30 ] Does discovery equal invention?
[2:20:12 ] Kevin's advice to his younger self.
[2:23:16 ] Parting thoughts.
*
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Table of contents
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