Transcript

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Fraser Cain [00:01:34 ] Astronomy Cast episodes 710 NASA’s Commercial Lunar Payload Program. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, your weekly facts based journey through the cosmos. We help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Doctor Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of Cosmic Quest. How are you doing? 

Pamela Gay [00:01:55 ] I am doing well. I am greatly enjoying enjoying the fact that this year for Lunar New Year, we have attacked the moon with things that can’t stand upright. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:06 ] Yes. Yeah, we’re going to get into this. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:10 ] The moon one. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:11 ] I mentioned a couple of episodes ago that we, you know, I’m trying to come up with my own seasons here, and so we just experienced first Crocus season. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:20 ] Excellent. Yeah, yeah. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:22 ] That feels it feels like hope. Like we’re reaching the end of a long, dark tunnel. And of winter and. And spring is almost here, so it feels good. Feels good to see you. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:33 ] Just head first. Skulking. It’s less hopeful. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:37 ] Write that down in a calendar. Are you kidding? That’s vital. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:42 ] They’re supposed to still be hibernating. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:44 ] Yeah, yeah. You chart the seasons by when you see the first skunk. That’s awesome. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:49 ] Smell, smell. No seeing smell. We didn’t. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:51 ] See it right. 

Pamela Gay [00:02:52 ] Now. 

Fraser Cain [00:02:53 ] In the olden days. NASA developed its missions using a variety of in-house engineers and external suppliers. As more commercial companies are targeting the moon. NASA is working with partners to deliver its payloads to the lunar surface today. Let’s talk about NASA’s Commercial Lunar Payload Program. So give us a sense of of how missions, say, missions to the moon. We’re done. There’s been a very long time since NASA has sent a payload to the surface of the moon. I don’t know whether the Apollo program was the last time the Americans went to the moon, but traditionally, if, you know, if NASA was going to send a payload, some kind of lander rover to the moon, what would they do? 

Pamela Gay [00:03:35 ] So. So in the ancient past, prior to my birth, they said, hey, contractors, we’re doing this thing. We’re going to overly micromanage it to make sure it gets done right. We’re going to use the best minds everywhere. And, Congress is going to help us and be supportive. And the nation is going to make this the most exciting thing that has ever happened in the entire planet, is going to tune in and watch it on TV. And it was kind of awesome. 

Fraser Cain [00:04:07 ] That’s it sounds exactly like NASA’s request for proposal written in in that kind of flowery language. 

Pamela Gay [00:04:15 ] With Apollo, they didn’t exactly do requests for proposals. It was the we’re going to do this, and I’m sure there were requests for contracts put out. But we now live in a different world where instead what we’ve seen is with various attempts to land in recent years, NASA has had instruments on Indian, on the Chandra, and it has had I think. 

Fraser Cain [00:04:46 ] It’s on a South Korean rover orbiter. It had an instrument, but NASA definitely partners with other nations to sneak instruments onboard their spacecraft. This is this has happened many times in the past, especially with the European Space Agency. 

Pamela Gay [00:05:02 ] And with all of these, instruments. In the past, it’s been a process of there is a rideshare opportunity to get to the moon on a another country’s spacecraft, and everything is handled through multilateral agreements, bilateral agreements. And these are generally NASA built through contracts instruments. 

Fraser Cain [00:05:34 ] So then how is this all different with the Commercial Lunar Payload Service? 

Pamela Gay [00:05:40 ] It’s in some ways philosophically different. So when you’re partnering with Jaxa, when you’re partnering with the Indian space agency Isro, it’s a. Agency to agency agreements, where the agencies are responsible for making sure things lower down the pipeline don’t get screwed up with what we’re seeing with the commercial launches. NASA is saying, hey, I heard you’re going to the moon because you told me. And we are going to pay to have our instrument on your spacecraft. And we recognize that the money you get from us to carry our, our instrument on your spacecraft is going to do good things to your bottom line, your motivation and hopefully increase the chance that you will succeed. But the mission is yours, right? We are not micromanaging this. And and so you don’t have the same oversight that you get with agency run missions. I even with the smaller missions like Osiris Rex where it was run out of a university, but it was a NASA mission where NASA had complete oversight on every aspect of the mission. 

Fraser Cain [00:07:08 ] And so how does the process work then? So let’s say somebody I guess NASA has some science goal. They want to, I don’t know, test out a new idea for a drill on the surface of the moon, which we’ll talk about in a little bit. How how would that process work? 

Pamela Gay [00:07:26 ] Or laser lidar? Sure. 

Fraser Cain [00:07:29 ] Whatever it is. 

Pamela Gay [00:07:30 ] It’s quite common. Yeah. So they have their commercial lunar, center in NASA. It’s a cost section of NASA. And through the eclipse program and other related programs, they put out periodic calls for proposals where companies are asked, what can we do to partner with you? What are you doing? Why should we partner with you? Convince us that you are the end all, be all. And our instrument should ride with you. And what instruments? It’s it’s it’s basically a dating service for instruments on landers. It’s a competitive process. Each proposal is, reviewed by a committee of peer reviewers. Not everyone is selected. These are the best of the best. 

Fraser Cain [00:08:28 ] Yeah, they have a right now, NASA has 14 suppliers. So they they originally when they they announced the program back in 2018, they announced a partnership with nine companies. And you know, some of the names are going to be familiar Astrobotic, Intuitive Machines, Firefly Aerospace, Lockheed Martin, Masten Moon Express or beyond. So all these companies and then in 20 what was it, 20 in 2018. Sorry. In 2018, they added five more suppliers that you’ve probably heard of Blue Origin, space X, Sierra Nevada. And so. And so in this case, right, NASA will say, okay, we want this payload delivered to the surface of the moon. And then they reach out to those 14 potential suppliers and they say, who will put this on the moon for us and for what price? And then they get proposals from all the different companies. 

Pamela Gay [00:09:28 ] Yeah. And. The thing about this is it’s trying to reach a future where, just like right now, if NASA wants to do a specific, experiment that requires, for instance, citizen science, this is something that I’ve done for solar eclipse handling. They will often put out standard calls for proposals, saying we are trying to take advantage of this following event. You are asked to submit proposals in this very narrow area and tell us how you would meet our needs. And they’re trying to get delivering things to the moon to be as easy and commonplace as delivering eclipse outreach to rural areas in Texas. 

Fraser Cain [00:10:28 ] Right. And I mean, you think about the analogy here, like, if you want to set up a antenna in some far off place, you want to set up a radio tower, you find a company and you tell them what you need, and then they build you a radio tower, and then you take control of it. Or like, you know, you have somebody build your house and so or delivery, like if you want to have a package delivered to someplace on Eart