Has Arsenal's academy revived their title hopes?
Update: 2025-02-03
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Liverpool legend Alan Hansen who famously said "you can't win anything with kids"
Yet on Sunday Arsenal’s teenagers took centre stage as they dismantled the champions with both Myles Lewis-Skelly and Ethan Nwaneri getting on the scoresheet.
So can Mikel Arteta’s Arsenal win anything with kids?
Ayo Akinwolere is joined by The Athletic's James McNicholas and Phil Hay to discuss the 5-1 win over Man City. Art De Roche also drops by to discuss the emergence of the likes of Lewis-Skelly and Nwaneri.
Meanwhile, The Athletic's football correspondent David Ornstein also gives his thoughts on the impact the youngsters have had on the club's recruitment plans along with the pressure of their pursuit for a striker.
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
With: James McNicholas, Phil Hay, Art De Roche and David Ornstein
Executive Producer: Adey Moorhead
Producer: Guy Clarke
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00:01:30
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akinwalera.
00:01:39
It was Liverpool legend Alan Hanson, who famously said, "You can't win anything with kids."
00:01:44
On Sunday, Arsenal's teenagers took centre stage as they dismantled the champions.
00:02:00
So can our tetas Arsenal win anything with kids?
00:02:05
Alright, here for this one, having been at the Emirates for the 5-1 demolition of Manchester City.
00:02:14
We have the Athletics Arsenal writer James McNicholas, and also joining us as well lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter Phil Hay, James, have to come to you first.
00:02:23
Five goals scored.
00:02:24
More importantly, two teenagers on the score sheet.
00:02:27
Emil Orrenten, a piece which is out on the Athletic right now, said, "Seasons can pivot on moments."
00:02:33
Was that moment Arsenal beat in Manchester City 5-1, a pivotal moment for Arsenal season moving forward?
00:02:40
I don't know.
00:02:41
I think they had to do it.
00:02:42
I think Arsenal come into every game at the moment with this huge pressure to not drop a single point.
00:02:47
Liverpool ran that pressure up again on Saturday with a really good result at Bournemouth.
00:02:51
I think all the Arsenal players, the staff, they would have had their eyes on that game as one where Liverpool might drop some points.
00:02:56
They don't.
00:02:57
They go and win there.
00:02:58
So Arsenal come into this game knowing that anything less than a win, and probably we're sitting here this morning saying the title's gone.
00:03:04
So for them to win that resoundingly in those circumstances is really, really impressive.
00:03:10
And it was a great occasion at the Emirates stadium and the atmosphere was fantastic.
00:03:15
You know, last week we saw Marzlouis Kelly sent off.
00:03:17
He was subject to headlines for a whole different reason.
00:03:20
I think that is a moment that could be really bonding and pivotal for this squad because I'll test her as a manager.
00:03:26
We know what he's like.
00:03:27
He'll use that.
00:03:28
He'll foster that.
00:03:29
He'll foster that as against the world mentality.
00:03:30
And they've also gone on to win two games since then, one of the Champions League and one in the Premier League, which will be remembered for a very long time.
00:03:36
Yeah, Phil.
00:03:37
And I think Arsenal kicked off that game at nine points behind Liverpool in the Premier League title race.
00:03:41
Liverpool obviously still have a game in hand, which they'll be playing against Everton.
00:03:45
You know, how telling was it the way Arsenal went about that match?
00:03:49
Because Amy Lawrence in her matchpiece also said they played as if they felt they owed city some punishment.
00:03:54
There was pent up emotion from the scars of resound battles and it all came up to humbling it out.
00:04:01
I mean, very dramatic, but you could see that needle on the field.
00:04:04
That spot on.
00:04:05
I would see.
00:04:06
And when in the context of Arsenal against City, you can feel the shifting sands of what's happening to City and Gardyola at the moment.
00:04:13
And I think you could feel yesterday the shift in the balance of power in the way that Arsenal are still very much in the title race and City have regressed to the point where they are absolutely out of it now and no question about that at all.
00:04:25
What I don't think it was was necessarily a statement when in the context of the Premier League table.
00:04:30
And as James kind of alluded to there, that is because of Liverpool until Liverpool link.
00:04:36
Arsenal kind of forward to drop points anywhere.
00:04:38
The thing about Liverpool is they do keep passing every single test.
00:04:41
I mean, they manage to stall the bomb with express on Saturday, which very few other teams have been able to do recently.
00:04:47
You know, James was saying that staff at Arsenal players at Arsenal would have looked at that game to have helped them out.
00:04:51
I think equally Liverpool would have looked for much more yesterday than City tipping up at the Emirates and capitulating completely.
00:04:58
That's the sort of picture you hope might work for you, even though you're not involved.
00:05:02
The City's record against Arsenal has always been very, very strong and I think there will be a lot of satisfaction behind the scenes today about how that went and how power does seem to have shifted in that particular rivalry.
00:05:13
I've said everything we've spoken about Arsenal, I've kind of said this and I'll say it again.
00:05:17
I don't think they've done a huge amount wrong in the league this season.
00:05:20
They haven't been perfect.
00:05:22
That's pretty evident.
00:05:24
But you know, they've kind of gone from City piecing together relentless form to win the title to Liverpool know doing exactly the same.
00:05:32
And our TETA does need to win a title as record Arsenal isn't going to shame without it.
00:05:37
But he does have the misfortune of continuing to encounter almost untouchable teams.
00:05:42
I wonder on a personal note, regardless of what happens for our TETA this season and Arsenal this season, James, just mentally beating the Master in such a way and what that does for you,
00:05:53
for your career trajectory and your thinking, yeah, a lot hasn't gone our way this season, but look what we've just achieved, if we get everything right, James, this is what we can do.
00:06:01
Yeah.
00:06:02
For him, it will mean a lot.
00:06:03
It's interesting in the build up to the game, both our TETA and Pep were asked about the relationship between them as managers, as friends, how has that changed, how has evolved.
00:06:11
They batted it away as you would expect them to do.
00:06:14
But there's no way that it can't be a huge moment for Michael R TETA to beat his mentor so resoundingly.
00:06:20
And I do always feel like in the weeks before these games, you see a different side of our TETA, a different tension in the air around those press conferences.
00:06:28
This is the game, I think, probably above all others.
00:06:30
He marks out on that fixture list.
00:06:32
So it will have meant a great deal to him.
00:06:35
It meant a great deal to the Arsenal fans because, as Phil mentioned, Arsenal have suffered greatly at Man City Towns in recent years.
00:06:41
They've beaten them to two league titles, which I think in any other season, against any other club, Arsenal might well have been champions, but against this extraordinary city side and what they've accomplished in that period,
00:06:53
they were picked to the post.
00:06:54
That's been very traumatic for the Arsenal supporters.
00:06:57
So I think there was a lot of catharsis in that stadium last night.
00:07:02
This is a different city, and I think we need to say that and qualify that.
00:07:06
This is a city side with clear weaknesses, without Roderie that have struggled.
00:07:10
But I think on a purely emotional level for our TETA and the Arsenal fans, this clearly meant a great deal.
00:07:15
Where do you think the relationships at, James?
00:07:17
What's your reading of the chord between TETA and Gardiola?
00:07:23
Friends?
00:07:24
Not friends, what do you think?
00:07:25
I think a great deal of mutual respect.
00:07:26
I think it's difficult to be friends in the true sense when you are professionally in quite so much competition.
00:07:33
To be fair, I think they've effectively admitted that.
00:07:35
On a human level, and of course, I'm not in that friendship, I don't know, but it must place a strain.
00:07:40
I mean, they've been in such direct competition.
00:07:42
And there was that dynamic as well of a guy who's been at the very top of the game and someone younger, aspiring to sort of push on and emulate what he's done.
00:07:52
There's got to be a bit of tension there.
00:07:54
I found it really interesting afterwards.
00:07:56
Like, Michael, TETA was asked about the meeting between these two teams in September.
00:08:00
Did you use any of the moments from that game as motivation for your side?
00:08:05
I'm thinking of perhaps Erling Harlan telling him to, after the game, stay humble.
00:08:09
And TETA was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I wouldn't do that.
00:08:12
And I thought, rubbish.
00:08:13
I don't believe you for a minute.
00:08:15
We've all seen the Amazon documentary.
00:08:17
We know what he's like.
00:08:18
We know he's got Ivan Tony's tweets on a whiteboard, you know, so I'm sure it's part of it.
00:08:24
And all these dynamics, all these interpersonal exchanges and all these things are fantastic.
00:08:30
Right.
00:08:31
I think it always makes me laugh.
00:08:32
It's become a cliche really when you hear a pundit say, we don't want to see that sort of thing.
00:08:37
Of course, we do.
00:08:38
Like, it's brilliant.
00:08:39
And I'm glad that even though city are not in the title race, it seems this season.
00:08:44
I think that city arsenal rivalry on the pitch, off the pitch in the boardroom remains a really heated and captivated one.
00:08:52
Yeah.
00:08:53
That rival is interesting.
00:08:54
And you bring me nicely to my next point, James and Phil, I want you to jump in on this as well.
00:08:58
This whole scenario surroundings, Erling Harlan, stay humble, comment from the previous match they played.
00:09:04
Obviously, Marz Lewis-Skelly scores a brilliant gold mimics, Harlan celebration and the club DJ plays Kendrick Lamas, be humble right at the end of the game.
00:09:13
And I mean, I'm up for a bit of rivalry.
00:09:16
I'm up for a bit of needle.
00:09:17
That's part of the game.
00:09:18
And actually, I like to see Arsenal players do that.
00:09:21
But could you say Arsenal got a little carried away with this one that they've been waiting to press that button, James?
00:09:26
You could tell.
00:09:27
Well, listen.
00:09:28
I think that's on the DJ.
00:09:29
I don't think I don't think Stan Cronkeys up there being like, can we get Kendrick lined up for full time?
00:09:35
Next time.
00:09:36
No, we can't put all that on the club.
00:09:37
I think the DJ might have got a bit of road there, but say the Arsenal fans around me certainly enjoyed it, the ones who were young enough to know the track anyway.
00:09:45
It's great.
00:09:46
And the Marz Lewis-Skelly Harlan thing, I mean, there's plenty of history there.
00:09:49
Marz Lewis-Skelly made his Premier League debut in the reverse fixture at the Etihad.
00:09:54
You may remember, it was a debut which he was booked before he even got on the pitch for encouraging, shall we say, David Ryer to go down injured while Arsenal were clinging on to a lead in that game.
00:10:05
He comes on the pitch, puts himself about a bit, and there was a moment, I think, captured while the cameras were earling Harlan, asked him who he is in less than polite terms.
00:10:15
But safe to say, he knows now.
00:10:16
I was looking at Harlan's dad Alfie tweeting afterwards about the fact that, you know, city of the trophies Arsenal don't, which is true, but that in itself tells you that what happened yesterday touched the nerve.
00:10:27
I think Harlan and team Harlan could easily rise above it.
00:10:31
He's only 24 and he's won everything of note at club level, which record in the Premier League goes on records, a complete joke.
00:10:39
But Arsenal seemed to manage to get under his skin slightly, and that's probably true of Pep and City in general.
00:10:46
I mean, City of the moment, they look like they're not a Pep Guardiola team, they look like they're trying to imitate a Pep Guardiola team and doing it really badly.
00:10:55
They're playing out from the back as a trophies at the moment, and the way in which they're getting cut open in transition and being counter-attacked is really surprising.
00:11:04
It's like the loss of Rodri is just ruined everything in a pretty quick period of time.
00:11:09
I was saying in a newsletter that they're kind of pressing with the enthusiasm of teenagers getting out of bed, which is not like what Guardiola team does.
00:11:18
The only thing with this is that everybody will be keeping receipts.
00:11:22
And you can tell that Gabrielle Luis Kelly kept them after the game in September.
00:11:26
I suspect Arterta probably did too.
00:11:29
Paladin City will keep them after yesterday, because if this is another trophyless season for Arsenal, it all starts to look a little bit timpuh, doesn't it?
00:11:37
You know, fitting off its heat at the moment, and it was a massive win, and I haven't been to games like that in the past, I know what the experience is like in the moment when you're there.
00:11:48
And it'll have been, it has said earlier, I've been immensely satisfying.
00:11:50
But the challenge for Arsenal and the thing that they haven't done to this point is doing it when it matters.
00:11:55
Yeah.
00:11:56
And looking for this, Harland did get his gum.
00:11:58
Yeah.
00:11:59
And I thought I was a brilliant goal.
00:12:00
Let's not forget that, but from an Arsenal perspective, James, to see that kind of passion and needle and building up rivalries, it's only great for the Premier League, isn't it?
00:12:10
I mean, that journalist will die now on that, for as long as it goes, the next match will be looking at it again.
00:12:14
Yeah.
00:12:15
I mean, it's great entertainment.
00:12:16
Shades of Martin Kio and I suppose, you know, in Gabrielle's reaction to the opening goal.
00:12:21
So really, James later in the match where Gabrielle appeared to be ordering Harland to get him his boot.
00:12:27
I saw that.
00:12:28
I mean, look, it's all a bit sort of side-show stuff.
00:12:30
But I'm sure people will roll their eyes at it.
00:12:32
I do think if you're a fan of Arsenal or a fan of Man City, you are going to find that incredibly engaging and just as Arsenal might have pinned Harland's comments up on their dressing room will,
00:12:42
well, City, you've got plenty of ammunition, if they're going into the next game.
00:12:46
And I think that's what we want to see, these kind of narratives that run across seasons.
00:12:50
And I'm excited.
00:12:51
I'm excited for the next one.
00:12:53
Why would you not be?
00:12:54
I think Arsenal City is a really unique rivalry because you've got the managers, right?
00:13:00
You're clearly between the players, there's beef.
00:13:02
They've got the managers who've got this unusual dynamic where you've got kind of the master and the apprentice.
00:13:08
And then in the boardroom or in sort of the club philosophies, there is again massive tension.
00:13:13
You've got City who, you know, are the sort of state-owned, 115 charges, Arsenal, one of the biggest opponents of City in those big sort of discussions about the Premier League and financial regulation.
00:13:25
So it really at every single level it works, feels right though, like you look at the trophy count and there's only one winner here.
00:13:33
So Arsenal will be acutely aware of that.
00:13:36
And if anything, I think some of what we saw from them on the pitch yesterday, it comes out of the pain that they've suffered at City's hands because they probably feel like if it weren't for City,
00:13:46
we'd have a decent medal collection by this point of time.
00:13:49
All right.
00:13:50
Next, we'll look deeper up that Arsenal's teenage stars.
00:13:55
We'll listen to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamuelerai.
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We believe in them that when I put them next to the boys, they feel that with them they are as good or better, you know, and that's really, really important and that they play with with a lot of purpose and they play it really to contribute and to make things happen.
00:15:42
That's what I like about both of them.
00:15:44
Arsenal manager Michael Arterte, their speaking post match on what Marsley is scaling and Ethan Nguyenieri bring it to his side.
00:15:51
Now joining us to talk about Arsenal's teenage stars.
00:15:54
We have the athletics, Art de Rache, joining us as well, Art de Rache, now we've spoken about Lewis Scalier, Nguyenieri's impact on the win against Manchester City, two great goals well taken.
00:16:04
But what impacts do you think now, considering where this team are and where they have to go for the rest of this season, this sort of youthful energy can have on their progression?
00:16:13
I think it can have a massive impact when you look at what sacraments Mifro in the kind of Europa League, what they brought to Arsenal.
00:16:20
It's really can be transformative, but even if you go back a bit further, I saw some Arsenal fans talking about Ramsey and Walshia a bit earlier on.
00:16:30
And I think that kind of spark can be really different to what's already in the team with, I think Nguyenieri.
00:16:37
I was lucky enough to be kind of right behind him when he scored and he was calling for that ball for about 15 seconds.
00:16:45
You knew what he wanted to do, he knew what he wanted to do and he was able to do it and I think what's really important is there's not too much thought behind what they're doing.
00:16:55
You're seeing that, they feel that they can affect the game and they just go and do it, rather than being too coached.
00:17:02
They just play football and that's, I think, the biggest, biggest compliment you can pay to them.
00:17:07
I was listening to the latest episode of Handbrake Off and you were talking about Marsles with Skelly coming into the Manchester City match and you were wondering whether or not Kalafiori would take that.
00:17:16
Let's not forget the goal he scored against Manchester City, but Arteta went with Louis Skelly instead of Kalafiori and that trust definitely paid off.
00:17:24
Definitely, I think when I was kind of having that debate with myself, it was more looking at who do I trust to be more reliable defensively and that was probably Louis Skelly and we saw way before he scored,
00:17:38
the way he used his body in defence, how switched on he was.
00:17:43
We've seen it throughout the last couple of weeks, months even and then to do it on that stage and perform the way he did last night, I think you just see someone who's confident in himself and has the confidence of his teammates as well,
00:17:55
whether he's on the ball or off it.
00:17:58
Yeah, Phil, has this sort of injuries that Arsenal have had been a bit of a blessing in disguise, directing for these young kids to come through, but also, I mean, they come through, doesn't necessarily mean they're going to shine.
00:18:08
No, I think you would have to call it a blessing in disguise because it didn't feel at the time when the injury started to kick in, like that was going to do Arsenal any good and I don't think there was any question that people at Arsenal thought a lot of these two players in particular.
00:18:24
It was more the concern would have been how able they were to replace somebody like Bakao Sakka, who is basically their top player and someone who, in practice, you wouldn't like to be standing in for.
00:18:35
I still think in order for Arsenal to have a really big finish to the season, they're going to need a big ton from a fully fit Sakka, but I mean, really impressed with these two.
00:18:44
And I think the bonus for Artheta and what he'll realise now is that, as the season goes on and he needs to manage both Champions League and the Premier League, he'll feel fairly confident that rotating and using kind of rotation of the squad involving the one area and low skill,
00:18:59
isn't a horrible risk.
00:19:01
James, in an art, will be able to say better than me where these two are going longer term, whether or not these are going to be big Arsenal players over a decade or that kind of time frame, or whether more like,
00:19:11
say, somebody like Nikettia, they'll end up with other Premier League teams perhaps a little further down the chain, but I think the way in which they've caught with recent games, particularly low-scale yesterday,
00:19:22
tells you that the assets that Artheta can use now.
00:19:25
And he'll be grateful for that because, you know, you lose something like Sakka, you need somebody big to step in.
00:19:30
Yeah, for sure, James, I've got to throw some stats that you, even Naneeri, 17 years old, 318 days in Marzlui's Skelly, 18 years old and 129 days became the youngest players to score against the reigning Champions,
00:19:42
since Wayne really netted, for Everton against Arsenal in March, 2003, Wayne really, of course, was 17 years old and 150 days.
00:19:50
Now, the other one which I really like is, Naneeri and Marzlui's Skelly scoring against Manchester City was only the fourth time two players, 18 or younger have scored for the same team in the Premier League,
00:20:01
the first since Everton against Fulham in April 2007 and that was James Vaughn and also Victor and Nietzsche be old-school names, classic Premier League names,
00:20:11
Barclays Vintes.
00:20:13
Yeah, exactly that, but you saw them a preseason.
00:20:16
What were you seeing while you saw them in preseason in America?
00:20:19
Did you envisage this was where it would go because, of course, Michaela Tettles was also been criticised for not using his youth?
00:20:26
I have to say, I didn't expect it to happen so quickly.
00:20:28
They were really impressive on the tour, both of them and I think the club have to be given some credit.
00:20:34
Not only for holding on to these players, there was a lot of competition for their first professional deal and, you know, Ethan Ranieri, Chelsea came in from really hard and ultimately committed to Arsenal, they kept Louis Skelly as well,
00:20:44
that was vital, but they integrated them really effectively this summer and they were earmarked for positions in the first team squad.
00:20:51
Arsenal made decisions like selling a Milsmith row, learning out Fabio Vieira, decisions which seemingly left them light and those were taken partly to afford opportunities to someone like Ethan Ranieri.
00:21:01
Louis Skelly, I always thought would be more difficult almost for him to make that breakthrough because Arsenal have a ton of leftbacks, right?
00:21:07
No, only did they spend 42 million pounds on Ricotta, Califurie, they got Curentini, Oxardis in Chanco, Yackemkivio, Jury in Timber can play their tachyra, Tommy Asu can play there, Inspire all that,
00:21:17
and yes, they're up in injuries.
00:21:18
The Milsmith is Skelly to have worked his way into position where he's now effectively Arsenal's starting leftback is quite extraordinary.
00:21:25
So, huge credit to them, credit to the manager as well, because I think Michalata recognised in himself that that was sort of an evolution that he needed to take as a manager.
00:21:35
He needed to reach a place of maturity where he felt able to take these risks on these young players, to trust them.
00:21:42
And he was quite open about that with us during the summer saying that, you know, that's a stage I need to reach as a manager, I need to be brave enough with something he said.
00:21:50
And he's got to that place now and he's been richly rewarded because they've been absolutely fantastic.
00:21:55
And at the moment, they're both in a place in their careers where, frankly, they haven't really encountered an obstacle yet.
00:22:01
They've taken to the Premier League like Ducks to Water and they are absolutely flying.
00:22:06
It's incredible to see the amount of confidence and belief that they're playing with.
00:22:11
And their progress may not always be linear in that way.
00:22:14
They will be challenges.
00:22:15
They will be moments they have to overcome.
00:22:16
They'll be mistakes and they will present their own difficulties.
00:22:20
And you know, if they're good enough, they'll overcome those.
00:22:22
But what's incredible, what's a joy to watch is that they're in that honeymoon period now where they just seem to feel invincible and it's great to watch.
00:22:30
I know you wrote a piece on Louis Kelly and also in Manieri and I love reading the comment section.
00:22:36
It was really positive actually because it was such a lovely piece.
00:22:38
But there's a guy called Rob B said trophies and playing in the Champions League are all well and good, but they become routine and expectation rather than a delightful surprise because of today's entitled culture.
00:22:49
To me, there is just something so much more special and honest about seeing the Academy Kids rise up through the ranks and not only represent the club, but to perform at the highest possible level.
00:23:01
Football clubs are originally about community and seeing Manieri and Louis Kelly tearing it up after coming through as school kids just reminds me of that long may it last.
00:23:11
And out that there is something really beautiful about this for any team in the Premier League that you know, admits the billions, admits this corporate structures.
00:23:19
There is still a beauty to seeing that kid, you know, and it's hard to make it out of an Academy by the way to make it into first team because there's also international talent they're recruiting in those spots finally make it and actually stand up and play well for their team.
00:23:31
Yeah, I think one other thing that's massive is a lot of the fan base can identify with these players, not just as footballers and how they play, but as people as well.
00:23:41
And I think that's one thing that made me so fond of someone like Emil Smyffro who we mentioned earlier, I could see myself in him.
00:23:50
And I think when generations come through obviously we spoke about Wilshane Ramsey earlier too.
00:23:56
I think you have these players that when they come in so young, you naturally just gravitate towards them.
00:24:02
And I think one thing that helped yesterday was the whole stadium wanted Miles and Ethan to score.
00:24:09
And when they did I think that was probably the wildest I'd seen in the Emirates for a while.
00:24:15
And on James's point on kind of having to overcome obstacles.
00:24:18
I think it's weird that we've probably already forgotten that Ethan has had to overcome an obstacle with the injury he had last month scored against Brighton then came off at half time with a muscular issue came back and was just as physical just as kind of imposing as he was before the injury.
00:24:39
And I think that's just as impressive as what he's been doing since preseason or even when he made his debut two and a half years ago against Brentford.
00:24:45
So big props to both of them and big credit to the club as well.
00:24:49
I think as well, you know, we speak about these previous generations, be that Wilshane Ramsey or even more recently Smythro Sacka, you're ready and catch his Reese Nelson.
00:24:58
They broke through at time where Arsenal were maybe not the force that they are at this point in time, where they were not necessarily challenging for league titles or third in the Champions League table as they are at this point in time.
00:25:11
For these players to be getting a chance in the first team and seizing that chance in the first team, in the strongest Arsenal team for probably 20 years, I think is a testament to their talent and their mentality.
00:25:24
That comment that you read out as well is bang on the money actually.
00:25:28
It's almost like the one connection now to the community where clubs play academy production, particularly of players who grew up in the local area.
00:25:38
Obviously you have a club stadium, but we were writing recently about the Italian Super Cup and the Spanish Super Cup, both of which were played in Saudi Arabia for money, let's be honest.
00:25:48
And so even that, you know, as time goes on, you suspect it will be less and less of a tie, but academy kids from where you come from are as close a tie to local areas you can possibly get.
00:25:59
I think Arsenal are really conscious of that as well when you look at the stadium artwork around the Emirates, there's one of the panels is just about the academy, they're very conscious of that.
00:26:10
So having these two come for it at the same time is massive for them.
00:26:14
Yeah, feel back to James' point, really, as to where Arsenal are right now.
00:26:17
You know, Jamie Carregor said on Sky Sports after the game that Arsenal need to win the title this season, otherwise it feels like a step back under Michaela Teta,
00:26:28
I thought I was quite interested in an assessment, I guess that says something to where Arsenal are aiming to get to and also how far Michaela Teta has come in his tenure as Arsenal manager,
00:26:38
but what do you think of that comment?
00:26:39
A step back.
00:26:42
Liverpool at the moment are on for 92, 93 points and teams have gone beyond that total in the past, but it's not a regular thing.
00:26:51
You know, that would be a really high finishing spot.
00:26:54
So I think you have to be reasonable in acknowledging that the competition out there is extremely fierce this season.
00:27:01
I guess it's more the bigger pitcher stuff with Teta, he's coming up for six years in now in this job.
00:27:08
What you're going to need to have to remember is his first, but that is a long stretch in the Premier League.
00:27:12
There's no pretending that he hasn't spent heavily on the squad, he hasn't got a lot of worries asked for, I think if you put a really good top class number 9 into this squad,
00:27:23
it's hard to know what more he could possibly ask for, you know, I think he would have pretty much a full hand with which to play with.
00:27:29
And he hasn't delivered a great deal when it comes to trophies, that is a fact.
00:27:33
I think he's a slightly lazy stick to beating with, because I still, to my eyes, anywhere completely different animal to what they were laterally under Arsenal Venger and also M under Unai Emory.
00:27:47
But I guess to an extent, it's not entirely flattering when something like Anna Slot comes into the Premier League and instantly tears it up in the way that he is at Liverpool and from Arsenal's perspective, Teta can't simply keep saying too good about other clubs.
00:27:58
Eventually, you have to break somebody's back rather than them breaking yours over and over again.
00:28:03
And that to this point is the thing that he hasn't been able to do.
00:28:06
Whether finishing second this season counts as a backward step, I don't necessarily think it does, but it most certainly doesn't count as a step forward, which is what Arsenal need to take.
00:28:16
Yeah.
00:28:17
Let's think about the bigger picture.
00:28:18
And I think that's really interesting, James.
00:28:19
I was with Nigel Winterburn on Friday and we were talking about, it feels slightly disgruntled.
00:28:24
Arsenal haven't won a title at the Emirates, the Premier League title that is.
00:28:28
And this is a guy who's won three league titles with Arsenal, but he said that first one's really hard.
00:28:33
Like, once you hit that first one, then you start moving forward.
00:28:35
But I'm just thinking more now about this season.
00:28:38
And one of the things he was excited about was potentially the Champions League and seeing how far that team can go in the competition.
00:28:44
And I guess there's still the caribou cut, but if you look at some of the people who could possibly face in the next round of the Champions League, AC Milan PS4, Juventus, Fionord, that has to be a competition they're earmarking as a relative success for this season,
00:28:58
if they can keep going on in that competition.
00:29:00
Definitely.
00:29:01
I mean, the Premier League title is, I think, the big one for Arsenal, I think it's the one that, you know, it feels like everything's been building towards that.
00:29:07
But there are other measures of success and progress.
00:29:11
And the Champions League could be one, you know, if they can get into a semi-final or final there, that will feel like a big step forward.
00:29:17
And I don't see why they shouldn't, frankly, I think, you know, they perform really well in the initial league stage.
00:29:23
They've got, you know, a buy-through to the round of 16 at this point in time.
00:29:27
They look like if they get through that, they'll probably have quite a tough draw in the quarterfinals, the way that the table's panned out.
00:29:33
But yeah, I think there's still everyone on that.
00:29:35
I think it was, well, listen, a week or a few weeks ago, I'd written off Arsenal's chances in the car about.
00:29:40
Don't say, say, you really think they're going to turn that around and say, all I'm saying is Bournemouth, when they're beaten, they've got beaten there again in the weekend.
00:29:48
They've just beat City Five One.
00:29:49
That's a big game for Newcastle.
00:29:51
And honestly, hand on heart, I think if Arsenal score first at St James's, it will be a very nervy St James's part.
00:29:58
Listen, Newcastle's still strong favorites.
00:30:00
But that's actually why that week was so costly for Arsenal, you know, a week where they just were so poor in front of goal, couldn't finish anything.
00:30:07
And they lost 2-0 in the car I'd cut and went out the FA Cup.
00:30:10
And that was a big blow, actually, because trophies, yes, the Premier League's the big one.
00:30:15
Yes, the Champions League, the big one.
00:30:16
But I think you want to see Arsenal, you want to see a squad of this caliber, racking up a few medals, you know, in a season where it looks very difficult to win the league.
00:30:25
Those secondary competitions, I think are important.
00:30:28
So that's a big game, it's in James's own Wednesday.
00:30:30
I know it's a very tall task.
00:30:32
But I think Arsenal got to give everything they can and if they can get one in front there, you never know.
00:30:37
Do you believe in that optimism, you know, this incredible win against Manchester City is enough to galvanise this team to turn over a tall goal deficit and potentially do really well in the Champions League.
00:30:47
Believe is a strong word.
00:30:49
But I'm hope, I think I hope would be closer to where I'm at.
00:30:52
I think when you look at how the game went yesterday, that early goal was really important.
00:30:56
And there's something Arsenal haven't done in a while.
00:30:59
I feel in their first title charge, so the 22-23 season, there were a lot of early starts to games in terms of scoring first, scoring early.
00:31:10
And if they were able to do that in Newcastle, I think they could maybe get momentum and carry on from where they left off against Manchester City.
00:31:17
In terms of the whole Champions League debate, I think one thing that kind of sticks in my mind is the Jose Mourinho football heritage discussion.
00:31:26
Because Arsenal, just speaking frankly, don't have heritage in the Champions League.
00:31:31
Got to the quarterfinals last season for the first time in 14 years.
00:31:35
And you want to be able to, I guess, not just repeat that, but surpass that year on year.
00:31:40
So that's something that I'm looking at in terms of where the development is for the second half of this season.
00:31:47
Can you actually push a little bit further?
00:31:49
Hopefully, as James said, semifinal or final.
00:31:52
All right, Art, thank you so much for your time, brother.
00:31:54
Next, we'll look at the transfer market, because it is deadline day.
00:31:58
We'll discuss the impact Arsenal's kids have had on their outlook in the market this month.
00:32:08
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00:32:42
This is the Athletic FCE podcast with I.O.
00:32:44
Akamalera.
00:32:46
All right, well, joining us now on Transfer Deadline Day, we have our Football Correspondent, David Ornstein with us.
00:32:53
Look, what sort of impact do you think, Ranberry and Lewis Skellies, two Academy prospects, breaking through Arsenal, will affect the recruitment process, because you know, there's another world where Michael Arteta can say,
00:33:04
look, you know, if I want to get smashes in the city, we scored five different scorers.
00:33:08
Do we even need a striker?
00:33:09
Well, first of all, Arsenal have been creating a lot of chances in many matches this season, and they've not been scoring them.
00:33:16
It's not been that they don't have the players, they do, but they've not been converting their chances.
00:33:22
You think to the wolves game prior to this one, where there were three headers, I think, from habits.
00:33:29
And so there was always sort of reassuring underlying data, I guess you could say, even if it was more based on what the eye tells you than what the analytics tell you that suggested that Arsenal were in reasonable shape,
00:33:44
I'm not disguising the fact that Arsenal would have liked to have recruited if they could.
00:33:49
And you know, they've been surveying the market and they do feel they need something more if they could get to help them through to the end of the season, but they're not going to do that at any expense.
00:34:00
And back to your point, they do trust in what they have, their internal resources and nobody likes to hear that, but they're pretty strong.
00:34:08
They've been investing for a long time at Arsenal.
00:34:11
They've been building up to the point where they should have a strong squad.
00:34:16
And then you look at what's coming through from inside your own system and in Lewis Kelly and Namwherry.
00:34:23
These are players that people at Arsenal have known about for a long, long time, but it does take time to mature them and get them ready for this stage and to earn Michaela Tetis trust.
00:34:33
So that provides them with really timely options, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that Arsenal have huge challenges ahead, if they're going to deliver on the expectations of many.
00:34:45
It was glorious for the club to see the young players performing like that.
00:34:49
We've got to be honest, on this show, we've been critical and scrutinised Arsenal's development of young players in recent years.
00:34:58
You know, when you look at cases of Manchester City, Chelsea, Liverpool, even a Tottenham, Arsenal haven't been bringing young players through at the same rate as those clubs or how they used to themselves.
00:35:11
And there are questions to be asked about the work going on at Arsenal, at academy level and the quality of certain age groups, it varies quite dramatically.
00:35:21
If you look behind these two, it's only really, say, Max Daumann, what a prospect he looks, but you know, they've, I don't think they're too disappointed to see like a heaven leave,
00:35:32
despite how high profile it's been to Manchester United, Chido Obey Martin, they would have liked to have kept him, but it's not the end of the world because they haven't got the stockpiles of young talent.
00:35:42
So this was really sort of vindicating and reassuring that the ones they have backed, they have put their chips down on the table for Lewis Gillian and Wairry delivered.
00:35:52
But overall, that's a sort of very separate conversation to first team senior recruitment, which they would have liked to have done this month in an ideal world,
00:36:02
but it's not always an ideal world.
00:36:04
And they will focus and redouble their efforts on what promises to be a really big summer in the market for Arsenal.
00:36:11
James, I always think about Boats of Contention against Arsenal and criticisms that Arsenal will always face.
00:36:17
Kai Havats, luckily, you know, redeemed himself in the second half after what looked like a very clear cut chance and he's missed a few of those of recent, not to say he's not an incredible contributor to that team all round,
00:36:28
you know, he's assisting and he's scoring in general.
00:36:31
But yet again, that would be the question, why have Arsenal not brought in a forward player or a goal scorer?
00:36:38
Yeah.
00:36:39
And they tried, you know, we know that they tried with Ollie Watkins, for example, at Asdenville.
00:36:42
I think Kai Havats must be one of the most talked about players in the Premier League.
00:36:46
And yesterday was a game that showed sort of every facet of him.
00:36:49
You know, I thought out of possession, he was outstanding, worked so hard to coordinate the press that first half miss was a shocker.
00:36:56
Let's be honest, he will have known that as well as everybody.
00:36:58
I was sort of dreading that that could come back to Horn Arsenal later in the game.
00:37:02
Fortunately, it doesn't.
00:37:03
And he then schools what looks like a much more difficult chance with a really good piece of movement, good run on the outside and good finish into the far corner.
00:37:10
You know, I heard on Sky Gary Neville saying he's having a crisis of confidence.
00:37:14
I'm not sure how accurate that is.
00:37:15
A second goal.
00:37:16
His goal was well taken, right?
00:37:18
He didn't look like a man like in confidence.
00:37:20
I think that's just who he is.
00:37:21
I think he's just a player who has a lot of strengths, a lot of qualities, but he's not necessarily a consistent finisher in front of a goal.
00:37:30
And it is remarkable, isn't it, that, you know, Arsenal have two set of forwards.
00:37:33
One is out at the moment in Geverish Air Zeus.
00:37:35
But if you're listing their many strengths and their weaknesses, you'd say if they're two set of forwards, what's their greatest weakness?
00:37:41
Finishing goal scoring.
00:37:43
But I think that must tell us a bit about the manager as well and what he demands, what he looks for in a striker.
00:37:48
And if there are ten things that Micka Latetta wants from a center forward, Sky Havoc does nine of them really well.
00:37:55
And I think the difficulty Arsenal have is, do you find a player who ticks more boxes?
00:37:59
You know, he might not have the clinical finishing that you might look for, ideally.
00:38:04
It's hard to find a player out there who they feel can truly offer more.
00:38:08
Watkins, I think, would have been a different type and I think would have been a really good addition, certainly in the short term.
00:38:13
Did Arsenal try hard enough with them?
00:38:15
James, you said they tried, but did they try hard enough?
00:38:17
I think it was always extremely unlikely for Villa to lose both of their center forwards in the same window, right?
00:38:24
In John DeRan and Oli Watkins.
00:38:26
I think if they maybe push Rolly Watkins harder and earlier in the window, they might have had a chance.
00:38:31
By the time Arsenal were talking about the deal, there was always this prospect that Villa could strike a deal with Saudi for John DeRan to go.
00:38:38
And financially, I think that made more sense to them, Emory, I think, preferred that.
00:38:42
So I think maybe if they'd gone sooner and harder, possibly, but they really, while they were active in the market, the intensity of their search for striker only really picked up in mid-January when Jezouz got that crucial injury.
00:38:54
I don't know, David, what do you think?
00:38:55
Well, they're slightly off the post, do you think?
00:38:57
In the Watkins case or the whole situation?
00:39:00
The Watkins case and also potentially bringing a forward in, because from the outside, it looks like Michaela Tetra's very happy with the team he's got.
00:39:07
Yeah, I'll take the second question first.
00:39:09
From the outset, no, they're aware of all options.
00:39:12
They've got a really good advanced recruitment department that have done well in recent years, and they've been backed by the ownership.
00:39:18
They know the targets out there.
00:39:20
They will have been aware of their availability.
00:39:23
And the fact is, the one that Michaela Tetra wants the most, Alexander Isaac is going to be extremely expensive, even if he can be apprised from Newcastle United at all,
00:39:34
which I would say is doubtful.
00:39:36
And then you've got players, they've done a huge amount of work on Benjamin Cesco, but he was never going to be a January mover, unless something astronomical was to come across Leipzig's intray,
00:39:48
and that didn't happen.
00:39:49
Then you start looking down the list to players like Victor Jocarez, but I don't think he's seen as quite the stylistic fit for Arsenal, whether we agree with that or not.
00:39:57
And I don't think Victor Jocarez is looking at Arsenal as being his next move.
00:40:02
So where do you start to go thereafter, Brian and Buembo type, but he's more of a wide forward and not available in this market?
00:40:10
Quite possibly in the summer too.
00:40:12
So I didn't sense any consternation in my conversations with people at Arsenal, they know this is more a summer conversation, and they've know that they've got players who can achieve for the time being.
00:40:23
Back to James' point on Kai Havats, they absolutely love him internally.
00:40:27
Whatever people say on the outside, nobody is seen as getting what Michaela Tetra wants from a tactical, a cohesion, a technical perspective, more than Kai Havats.
00:40:38
They're absolutely in awe of his intelligence, how well he's regarded by the group and the qualities he brings.
00:40:46
So in response to your sort of wider point, no, I think they were pretty comfortable with that.
00:40:52
On Watkins, naturally, these things are not easy when it gets to such a late point in the window.
00:40:57
Clearly, Villa gave Arsenal the opportunity to do this deal or have a conversation on the basis of a 60 million pound possibility.
00:41:06
That was something that clearly Arsenal were not prepared to do at that value for 29-year-old who in their eyes is probably worth not quite that much.
00:41:17
Again, debatable points, because somebody like Harry Kane was older when he went to buy Munich for like 100 million euros.
00:41:24
So they decided to suggest around the 40 million pound mark.
00:41:29
Villa were being serious when they suggested 60, because that's where they value him and if they need to make the numbers work with PSR and whatever else and with the Durand situation on the horizon.
00:41:42
Did you genuinely value Watkins at 60?
00:41:45
You think that's too high?
00:41:47
I think it's too low.
00:41:48
So that's what they would have been prepared to have a conversation for.
00:41:51
Now that's something that we don't know if it would have led to an offer being accepted, but the door was clearly opened at that level.
00:41:59
And Arsenal weren't prepared to go there.
00:42:01
Some people have spoken to say Arsenal should have bit their hands off and gone and done that in a flash, but immediately when you sort of suggest 40 and they've got the Durand possibility on the horizon,
00:42:12
Aston Villa pivoted immediately and saw out the Durand situation.
00:42:17
And there was no further dialogue to my knowledge of at least of substance.
00:42:21
Now clearly for somebody that's gone on record as saying that he's an Arsenal supporter as a boy and it would have been his dream move, etc.
00:42:30
Perhaps only Watkins would have pushed for it if it came close.
00:42:34
It didn't come close and there was no sort of attempt by Arsenal to go again or be more concrete because I think they've got their minds very fixated on the summer.
00:42:46
And if this could have been done at a price that they wanted, then you amend those summer plans.
00:42:51
But if not, then it's all lies on the end of the season.
00:42:55
Whether Watkins comes into that picture, let's wait and see.
00:42:59
But I don't think Arsenal can sort of be really heavily criticised apart from whether you think they should have given Villa the price that they wanted.
00:43:09
But I don't think that guarantees they would have got him.
00:43:12
It would have just led to a negotiation.
00:43:14
Maybe they still would have gone with the Durand Saudi bit.
00:43:17
These situations are never as binary and as black and white and as clear-cut as many of us think they should be.
00:43:24
And ultimately, I might look stupid with these comments because Arsenal will be judged on the months ahead and it could go wrong.
00:43:31
And then everybody will say you had the opportunity.
00:43:33
You could have just put 20 million more down and got Watkins done.
00:43:37
There's no guarantee that would have secured Arsenal the trophies and the aims that they wanted.
00:43:43
But they'll know that they'll be judged by this.
00:43:46
The one thing we do have to keep coming back to is that it's a really tough market.
00:43:50
The supply of the strikers is far outweighed by the demand.
00:43:55
And what do you do?
00:43:56
Just go and waste money on somebody that's not right for you.
00:43:59
Equally, many clubs would love to be in Arsenal's position right now.
00:44:03
At the top of the Premier League, they'd like to think they're fighting with Liverpool.
00:44:07
They're still in the Champions League in a really good position.
00:44:10
They might cling on in the league cup yet, so it could be worse.
00:44:14
The Watkins one's so interesting because, Phil, I take your point.
00:44:17
Do you think 60 million is a good price for all the Watkins?
00:44:20
But having my ear to the ground, listen to the Arsenal fans.
00:44:23
When that story broke, they were plenty of Arsenal fans saying, "We can't pay 60 million for a 29-year-old."
00:44:28
Do you know there's no resale value in that?
00:44:30
Is that a good investment?
00:44:31
And so there is always this debate around players.
00:44:34
I also think I really like all the Watkins.
00:44:36
I think he's a really good striker, great goalscorer.
00:44:38
Would Michel Attetta pick him above kind of have us?
00:44:41
I honestly don't know.
00:44:43
It'd be nice to have both, don't get me wrong.
00:44:45
But I think what's clear is all this.
00:44:46
An Arsenal fans probably won't want to hear it today or tomorrow in the like of Deadline Day if Arsenal, as we expect, don't do any business.
00:44:52
But it does put huge emphasis on a certain degree of pressure on the summer.
00:44:57
Because you've got this outstanding issue of the centre-forward, which we'll have to be attended to.
00:45:03
You've got players like Georgina and Thomas Parte.
00:45:05
You head it out of contract.
00:45:06
We know Arsenal working on the deal.
00:45:08
Hopefully it's time Martin's a bit mendi.
00:45:09
That would be a big addition in the midfield.
00:45:11
But that's a centre-forward question.
00:45:14
It's been hanging over the club really for maybe a year or two now.
00:45:17
We've seen centre-forward go in that period.
00:45:19
We've seen the likes of the club.
00:45:21
We've seen Adian Ketier, Balagun, Mika Beereth left the club.
00:45:24
Without really pure centre-forward coming in.
00:45:28
And that will have to be attended to in the summer surely.
00:45:31
Yeah, I think Arsenal fans can deal with 20, 30 million, but not one pound.
00:45:36
If you remember the Luis Juarez days, I've missed it out on a striker.
00:45:40
Gents, I really appreciate your time.
00:45:42
James, David Philan, also R2 joined us earlier.
00:45:45
We'll be back tomorrow looking back on the close of the January transfer window.
00:45:49
And also if you can't wait for that.
00:45:51
And one more on what makes a transfer.
00:45:54
Check out the anatomy of a transfer on the athletic FC feed right now.
00:45:58
Here's a little teaser of what to expect.
00:46:00
So I'm on my travels.
00:46:04
Speaking to the people involved in this ongoing transfer market.
00:46:08
And I wanted to start with a little pep talk with a man who breaks so much of the news on the athletic.
00:46:13
And there he is.
00:46:15
It's David Anstin.
00:46:17
And Kyle, by the looks of it, let's go and talk to him.
00:46:20
So I'm going on this journey.
00:46:32
I'm speaking to the key stakeholders in the transfer process.
00:46:35
And this is something that you are immersed in.
00:46:38
How do you see that the jigsaw puzzle fitting together of the key people in this process?
00:46:45
Really appreciate you taking the time.
00:46:47
And it's a pleasure to sit down with you and talk about it.
00:46:49
We're also joined here by my dog Sparky, who is privy to most of my conversations relating to transfers.
00:46:56
He knows all the secrets.
00:46:57
The transfer world is crazy.
00:47:00
It's insane.
00:47:01
On the one hand, a sort of joy of my career.
00:47:04
And on the other, the bane of my life.
00:47:06
And certainly that and my family.
00:47:08
There are key players throughout the process.
00:47:12
So recruitment departments, their managers, their coaches, their executives, their directors, their atmosphere created by their fans, the requirements of the team.
00:47:22
That ultimately is where things stem from.
00:47:25
And then it spreads.
00:47:27
They have to do their due diligence.
00:47:29
They have to go out and watch players' whole conversations with agents, with intermediaries, with family members.
00:47:35
Do their due diligence on the players themselves, basically spying on them and finding out how they live and how they work and their traits and their characteristics, their behaviors.
00:47:47
And then there are others who play significant roles in these.
00:47:50
Because players, certainly at the elite level these days, they have commercial people around them.
00:47:56
They have medical people around them.
00:47:58
They have lawyers and financial advisors.
00:48:02
There's so many different elements to a football player that much of that then bleeds into the transfer ecosystem.
00:48:11
OK, more from David and Spocky probably later on on breaking a transfer story.
00:48:18
But I'm clear on the seven stage order we need to do this.
00:48:21
Player, scouting, manager, agent, boardroom, lawyers and medics.
00:48:26
So let's kick on, let's get started.
00:48:29
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.
00:48:31
The producers with Guy Clarke, Mike Stavrew and Jay Beale, the executive producer was Ailey Morehead.
00:48:36
To listen to other great Athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.
00:48:42
The Athletic FC podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.
00:48:46
The Athletic FC podcast network.
00:48:52
Hey everybody, it's Dayanna Rossini from The Scoop City Podcast.
00:49:00
It's Super Bowl Week and the Eyes of the World are on New Orleans to see if the chiefs can make history.
00:49:04
Or if the Eagles are ready to reign on their parade.
00:49:07
Myself, Robert Mays, Derek Klassen, and a whole host of NFL reporters and special guests will be live streaming every day from Radio Row, covering all the build-up to Sunday's showdown.
00:49:17
Join us on the Athletic HQ YouTube account every day at 5 p.m.
00:49:21
Eastern time.
00:49:22
It's not to be missed.
00:49:24
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