Introduction:

Our guest today is one of the manosphere’s most influential and prominent thinkers: Jack Donovan, author of The Way of Men. Most of our interviews are about how men can do better with women; this one is not like that at all. In this episode, we talk about his (excellent) book, about masculinity, and about other male-centered issues. If you’re interested in that stuff, you’ll love this discussion, but if you just want actionable information relating to women, you probably want to skip this one.

Podcast:

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Video:

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SPONSOR: This episode is sponsored by Bookhacker. They do the reading, so you don’t have to. Check them out on Amazon or Bookhacker.net.

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Key takeaways:

If you cultivate the traits that earn you respect from other men and that make them want you as a friend or ally or mentor or member of their gang, you’re almost 70% or 80% of the way there in terms of what women also find attractive. If a guy did nothing other than cultivate the traits that other guys respect they’d still be doing way better than most guys are in terms of heterosexual attractiveness.

If you feel disenchanted or disenfranchised from the modern world, the first step you should take is trying to form connections to other men in your area who like similar things and you get along with. Build a network, create your own community.

Forming close bonds with other men is important.

Men bond over aggression, but it doesn’t have to be against each other – it can be aggression against nature, hunting, climbing Mt.Everest, doing something risky, or completing a task that’s really hard.

As we’ve said before, the alpha/beta male distinction and the whole word ‘alpha’ is fucking stupid. The majority of the time it’s mentioned it’s someone referring to themselves as alpha, and if you have to say you’re alpha, you’re not alpha. It’s like saying “I’m part of the elite”. The elite don’t say that.

Men can be very caring and empathetic and still be masculine.

A lot of vested interests try to define masculinity and what alpha is for young men in a way that’s in their interests. For example, marketers tell you that you become masculine by buying their stuff, captains of industry say you’re masculine if you work hard, etc. Be skeptical of people who can benefit from telling you what masculinity is. Ask yourself “Who wants me to be this way and why?”

Links from this episode

Jack’s article on The Wolves of Vinland

Jack’s interview with Paul from The Wolves of Vinland

The Power of Clan

Jack Donovan’s Bio:

Author of The Way of Men, Androphilia, A Sky Without Eagles, and Blood-Brotherhood and Other Rites of Male Alliance

Jack writes about masculinity and manliness, and is known for his critiques of feminism and gay culture(despite being gay himself)

Jack contributes to Radix Journal, Counter-Currents, the Spearhead and Alternative Right

Jack publishes a podcast called Start the World

Jack Donovan’s Major Works:

The Way of Men

Jack describes this project as aiming to “develop a universal definition of masculinity”

There is a difference between being a “good guy” and being manly – e.g. if Batman is manly, is Bane unmanly? No, of course not.

Different groups will have different agendas that they try to impose: “Established men of wealth and power have always wanted men to believe that being a man was about duty and obedience, or that manhood could be proved by attaining wealth and power through established channels. Men of religion and ideology have always wanted men to believe that being a man was a spiritual or moral endeavor, and that manhood could be proved through various means of self-mastery, self-denial, self-sacrifice or evangelism. Men who have somethin gto sell have always wanted men to believe that masculinity can be proved or improved by buying it.”

Argues that the only way to reclaim masculinity and return to honor and manly virtue is to start a gang. Says “there are no moderate solutions to the problems presented by global capitalism, multiculturalism and feminism. Pan-secession into tribal groups within a failing state is the only alternative I see within most nations.” (source)

Qualifies this by saying “You don’t have to have a Liberian-style gang. That’s not the only option. It’s definitely not a “starter” option. Think of the Yakuza or the Mafia, or as

I’ve said recently, underground networks of immigrants. I don’t think many of us are

ready to be Liberians, and I don’t think many of us would want to behave as they do.

There are shades of gray between being a complete slave to the State and 8-year olds

shooting each other with AK-47s.” (source)

The book highlights four “tactical virtues” – honor, strength, mastery and courage – which he talks about in this piece on Thought Catalog

On honor, Jack says: “Caring about what the men around you think of you is a show of respect, and conversely, not caring what other men think of you is a sign of disrespect.” (source)

On modern men: “Men today are so protected and coddled. They’re told that they deserve “respect” just because they’re breathing. Many don’t have fathers, and whether

they do or not, they have mothers and teachers and the media telling them that no one should ever bully them or make them feel bad. They play games where everybody is

declared a winner. We all post our pictures and thoughts and feelings online, and expect

people to “like” them and make us feel good about ourselves. This constant affirmation

makes men narcissistic, delusional and weak.” (source) This isn’t a quote from the book but it’s an indication of what he thinks.

Androphilia

Book is a criticism of gay culture

Jack uses the phrase “androphilia” to describe himself as a man attracted to other men, but to distinguish himself from the connotations of the label “gay”.

Quote: “Gay is a subculture, a slur, a set of gestures, a slang, a look, a posture, a parade, a rainbow flag, a film genre, a taste in music, a hairstyle, a marketing demographic, a bumper sticker, a political agenda and philosophical viewpoint. Gay is a pre-packaged, superficial persona–a lifestyle. It’s a sexual identity that has almost nothing to do with sexuality.”

A Sky Without Eagles

This is a collection of his essays and speeches, covering topics like the necessity of violence, masculinity, anarcho-fascism and becoming a barbarian.

Some quotes: “The only ‘freedom’ that feminism offers men is the freedom to do exactly what women want him to do.”, “Violence comes from people. It’s about time people woke up from their 1960s haze and started being honest about violence again. People are violent, and that’s OK. You can’t legislate it away or talk your way around it”, “The pro-feminist male is a wretched, guilt-ridden creature who must at every turn make certain he is not impeding the progress of women in any way.”

Further reading on Jack Donovan:

Speech Jack gave at the New Policy Institute called “Becoming the New Barbarians” (27minutes long)

Transcript of a good interview with Jack

Another interview with Jack that addresses, among other things, his latest book and his position on race

Interesting piece Jack wrote on women who lift weights or do Crossfit etc.

Jack’s Twitter

Jack’s Website

Jack’s Wikipedia Page

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:

Let me try–I’m going to hang up and call him first and then you.

Jack:

You have reached New Barbarian Tattoo and this is Jack Donovan. Leave me a message.

Tucker:

Oh wait. Hold on. Here he is. Here he is.

Geoff:

Okay.

Tucker:

Alright let me add him. Oh, man.

Jack:

There!

Tucker:

Yo, Jack.

Jack:

Hey! How’s it going?

Tucker:

Good. What’s going on, man? I’ve got Geoff Miller on the line, too.

Geoff:

Hey Jack. How you doing?

Jack:

Hey. Good to talk to you.

Tucker:

So, we just got your voicemail. I’ve got to tell you. That was a pretty fucking awesome voicemail.

Geoff:

Does it still say the thing about don’t leave me a message?

Tucker:

No, no, I was laughing. It might. I was laughing too hard at the New Barbarian Tattoo. Like this is Mr. Jack. That’s not even your voice, is it? Is that you?

Jack:

Yeah, it’s me.

Tucker:

It was awesome. It was like, like out of a movie like when you go in to like, you know, like the whatever. You’re getting your. It’s almost like. I felt like if I was going through like a Joseph Campbell like test of manhood like life passage type thing this would be the voice that would welcome me to like the underworld where I actually had to face the beast or something. It was amazing.

Jack:

I like that. Thank you. That’s exactly what I was going for.

Tucker:

So, I got to say, Jack, I read, I had not read The Way of Men until Geoff had told me about it. I don’t know, six months or a year ago and I was like. I put it on my pile and I was like okay, I’ll read it eventually and just never got to it. And then once we booked you for the podcast, I read it on a plane flight. And I was blown away actually by the book because– Well, just first off, I’m sure you’re about my age now. You’re like 38, 39, something like that right?

Jack:

39, yeah.

Tucker:

39. So, I’m about to turn 39. So, you probably know what I mean. Like we’ve kind of gotten, at least I’ve gotten to the age where it’s like obviously I haven’t read everything but I’ve read enough that it’s very rare for me to read a book that really either challenges my thinking or like sheds new, really original new sort of lights on things that I hadn’t thought of or something like that, you know? And Way of Men definitely, there were passages where like I sat it down and I was like fuck, I never thought about that like that. That’s really. Either I totally disagree