Digest

This podcast episode offers a deep dive into the 2009 film "Law Abiding Citizen," dissecting its plot, characters, and themes of vigilante justice. The hosts and audience members explore the movie's success, its origins as a spec script, and the compelling nature of its villain. They critically examine plot holes, character motivations, and the film's portrayal of the legal system, drawing comparisons to "John Wick" and other thrillers. The discussion highlights the graphic violence, questionable dialogue, and editing choices, while also touching on the actors' performances and the film's broader appeal. Audience interaction provides additional insights, alternative endings, and humorous anecdotes, ultimately questioning the film's realism and its message about justice.

Outlines

00:00:00

Introduction and Film Overview

The podcast begins by introducing the movie "Law Abiding Citizen," discussing its Philadelphia setting, IMDb description, and initial financial success. The hosts introduce themselves and their guest co-host, noting a recurring presence of Gerard Butler in their discussions.

00:04:14

Spec Script Origins and Villain Focus

The origins of "Law Abiding Citizen" as a spec script are explored, with a particular emphasis on the compelling nature of the villain. The hosts express a preference for the villain's actions over other characters.

00:07:09

Movie Lessons, Plot Holes, and Unclear Motives

The discussion delves into the movie's lessons, such as the importance of using doorbells, and highlights significant plot holes and the lack of a clear protagonist. The motivations of the villains are questioned, with debate over whether their actions were purposeful or random.

00:09:34

Comparisons and Character Likability

Parallels are drawn to "John Wick," discussing inciting incidents and character motivations. A comparison is made between the likability of revenge-driven characters in both films, noting the surprising sympathy for Keanu Reeves' character. The "big dick energy" of the stars and the sympathetic nature of characters are also discussed.

00:10:50

Writing, Dialogue, and Character Age

The hosts identify instances of "bad writing" and questionable dialogue, citing specific lines and moments that detract from the narrative. The age of a character, Leslie Bibb, and her line about feeling "washed up" are also discussed.

00:15:37

Marketing and Creative Advertising

The conversation shifts to the marketing strategies of shows like "Suits" and "The Bear," with a focus on FX's creative and unconventional promotional methods.

00:17:42

Audience Interaction and Pacing

The guest co-host returns, and the hosts engage with the audience about their movie-watching habits. The movie's fast pacing and the brutal opening scene of the home invasion are commented on.

00:18:47

Character Reactions and Protagonist Issues

Frustration is expressed regarding the young girl's unrealistic lack of reaction during the home invasion. The core problem with the movie is identified as Jamie Foxx's character not being an "asshole" enough, making him too sympathetic.

00:19:46

Legal System Tropes and Character Chemistry

The legal system depicted in the movie is discussed, noting the limited number of lawyers and judges and the repetitive use of legal tropes. The landmark in Philadelphia is identified as William Penn. The hosts express a desire for more friction and tension between Jamie Foxx and Gerard Butler's characters.

00:21:31

Prison Logic and DNA Evidence Inconsistencies

The logic behind Gerard Butler's confinement in a large cell and the prison's security are questioned. Inconsistencies regarding DNA evidence and the lack of evidence from the main perpetrator are pointed out.

00:22:27

Legal Dramas and Character Kills

The hosts discuss their understanding of the Attorney General's office, referencing legal dramas. They question why the movie didn't utilize the tactic of flipping one villain against another, noting that Gerard Butler ultimately kills everyone.

00:23:18

Execution Scene and Dialogue Analysis

Disbelief is expressed at the scene where lawyers are present for an execution, questioning the logistics and casual attitude. The lawyer's motivation for attending and Jamie Foxx's reaction to witnessing an execution are analyzed.

00:24:23

Editing Techniques and Alternative Endings

The film's editing technique of cutting between a cello recital and an execution is criticized. The hosts share their desired alternative ending involving the daughter's cello exploding.

00:24:44

Bad Writing Examples and Trial Scene Absurdities

A specific line from the judge is highlighted as an example of bad writing. The trial scene is analyzed, focusing on the absurdity of picking up a phone during a murder trial and the judge's actions.

00:26:16

Device Mystery and DVD Obsession

Speculation arises about the nature of the "phone gun" and its functionality. The hosts question Jamie Foxx's character's repeated mentions of DVDs and the logistical absurdity of a DVD delivery.

00:27:12

Family Safety and Character Improvisation

The importance of not answering the door is emphasized, especially given the movie's circumstances. The hosts speculate that Jamie Foxx's character's obsession with DVDs might be improvised.

00:28:05

Character Interactions and Unseen Connections

Jamie Foxx's character's attempt to be a good dad and his interaction with Leslie Bibb are discussed. The character Chester and speculation about his involvement with Jerry Butler are explored, noting the lack of revealed connections.

00:28:32

Solitary Actions and Accomplice Theories

The realization that Jerry Butler acted alone is discussed. Cole Meany's appearance outside the prison is analyzed, with initial assumptions about him being an accomplice.

00:29:05

Police Detective and Environmental Observations

The police detective's role in the film is acknowledged, though its significance remains unclear. The hosts comment on the cold weather's effect on the actors' complexions, attributing their paleness to Philadelphia's climate.

00:29:25

Execution Pose and Audience Legal Insights

The practice of positioning executed individuals in a crucifixion-like pose is questioned. A lawyer in the audience shares insights into the execution process, comparing it to an amusement park ride.

00:29:51

Cinematic Execution Portrayals and Legal Expertise

"Dead Man Walking" is referenced, and the common cinematic portrayal of executed individuals as Christ-like figures is discussed. Audience member Morgan, a lawyer, is called upon for expertise on the execution process and the film's believability.

00:30:13

Believability in D&D and Disappointment with Jail Time

Morgan suggests the movie's plot would require a "really bad DM" to be believable in a D&D campaign. The hosts express disappointment that Gerard Butler's character's momentum is lost when he's imprisoned.

00:30:57

Gerard Butler's Filmography and Physical Space

Other Gerard Butler films are listed, humorously referring to a "Bannonverse." The hosts discuss how Gerard Butler's character becomes physically confined in prison.

00:31:19

Prison Scene Absurdities and Waiter's Role

The presence of a Del Frisco's waiter in the prison scene is highlighted, with questions about logistics and purpose. The hosts speculate the waiter was brought in with the meal.

00:31:53

Solitary Confinement and Dating the Movie

The character is clarified to be in solitary confinement, not death row. The hosts attempt to date the movie by observing the lack of face tattoos.

00:32:04

Gerard Butler's Monologue and Confrontation

A clip of Gerard Butler delivering the titular line is prepared. Clip six features a confrontation between Gerard Butler's character and the judge, where he delivers a powerful monologue.

00:32:38

Legal System Critique and Assembly Line Justice

Gerard Butler's character delivers a passionate speech to the judge, questioning the legal system. The judge reacts, threatening contempt of court. The film's portrayal of "mad men and murderers" being released back onto the streets is criticized.

00:34:17

Justice, Right, and Wrong, and Acting Monologue

Gerard Butler's character questions the fundamental principles of justice, right, and wrong. The hosts find his monologue compelling and suggest it as a new acting audition piece.

00:34:48

Accent Struggles and Embracing Persona

The hosts discuss Gerard Butler's accent struggles and compare it to Arnold Schwarzenegger's approach. They suggest Butler could embrace his "Shrek" persona.

00:35:16

Consistent Accents in Action Films

The hosts observe that action stars often maintain their distinct accents regardless of the character's nationality.

00:35:24

Time Jump and DA's Persistence

The hosts question how Gerard Butler's character knew he would face the same District Attorney and judge 10 years later.

00:35:34

Brain Judge and Case Collection Analogy

The hosts humorously suggest the judge is a "brain judge" and that there might be a "dibs" system for handling cases, comparing it to a "Pokemon Go situation."

00:35:48

Gerard Butler's Plan and Core Lesson

The hosts acknowledge that Gerard Butler's plan makes sense, even if flawed. The movie's core message is identified as "Don't make deals with murderers."

00:36:11

Killing Innocent People and Chester's Survival

The hosts lament that Gerard Butler's character killed many innocent people. Chester is noted as the only character who survives.

00:36:27

Song and Prison Bombing Aftermath

A song titled "How Does This Kill Me?" plays. The hosts question the casualties from the prison bombing and find the ending unfulfilling.

00:36:45

Prison Explosion and Costume Choices

The massive explosion that rocks the prison is described. The hosts reiterate dissatisfaction with the ending and discuss the choice of prison jumpsuits.

00:37:13

Actor's Costume Choices and Physique

The hosts believe the choice of prison jumpsuits is an actor's decision. They comment on Gerard Butler's physique, noting his skinnier appearance.

00:37:29

Skinnier Physique and Steroid Use

The hosts observe Gerard Butler appears skinnier, attributing it to the time period. They note he doesn't appear to be on steroids in a naked scene.

00:37:51

Steroid-Enhanced Actors vs. Natural Physique

The hosts discuss how actors today are often on steroids or HGH, making them appear more muscular than Gerard Butler in this film.

00:38:02

Low-Impact Kinetic Operations Guy

The hosts humorously describe Gerard Butler's character as a "low-impact kinetic operations guy," questioning the term's meaning.

00:38:22

Puffer Fish Needle and Gun Modification

The hosts discuss a scene where a gun is modified with puffer fish needles, finding the detail bizarre.

00:38:37

Racist Voice and Character Portrayal

The hosts criticize the use of a "slightly racist" voice for a character, questioning casting and portrayal choices.

00:38:50

Unusual Greeting and Character Interaction

The hosts analyze a character's unusual greeting and interaction, finding it humorous and nonsensical.

00:39:09

Killing the Janitor and Prison Access Issues

The hosts question why a janitor was killed and how he gained access to a solitary prison cell, highlighting plot inconsistencies.

00:39:23

Tunnel System and Underground City Reveal

The reveal of Gerard Butler's character's underground city and tunnel system is discussed, explaining how he moved undetected.

00:39:39

Cartels and Tunnel Ideas

The hosts humorously suggest that cartels might have adopted the tunnel system idea for smuggling drugs.

00:39:54

Cartoonish Tunnel and Chase Scene Expectations

The tunnel is described as "cartoonishly old-timey," and a desire for a chase scene within it is expressed.

00:40:15

Indiana Jones-Style Chase Scene Potential

The hosts imagine an Indiana Jones-style chase scene through the tunnels, highlighting a missed opportunity for action.

00:40:18

Tunnel System and Sneaking Out of Prison

The implications of the tunnel system, allowing Gerard Butler's character to sneak out of prison nightly undetected, are discussed.

00:40:37

Prison Cameras and Faking Presence

The lack of cameras in the prison in 2009 is questioned, while acknowledging the character's use of pillows to fake presence.

00:41:01

Prisoner Surveillance and Business Hours

The hosts speculate that prison surveillance might decrease after business hours, allowing prisoners to move undetected.

00:41:15

Sound of a Door Opening and Guard Worry

The hosts imagine guards hearing a door open and the subsequent worry of a character named Carl.

00:41:29

Movie Scope vs. Character Focus

The movie's grand themes of justice are noted, but its limited focus on a few key characters is criticized.

00:41:42

Lack of Interesting Side Characters

The movie is criticized for not developing interesting side characters, even talented actors like Bruce McGill.

00:41:52

Spy Character and World Insight

A desire for more insight into the world from the spy character is expressed, but the lack of depth is disappointing.

00:42:04

Talented Character Actors and "Making Their Nut"

The cast of talented character actors is praised, with the suggestion that the movie could be called "Character Actors Making Their Nut For The Year."

00:42:23

Bruce McGill's Demise and Seated Presence

Bruce McGill's character's death is lamented, and his frequent presence near the action without significant lines is noted.

00:42:34

Working in Prison and Time Deadlines

The characters working in prison and a supposed 5:45 AM deadline are discussed, questioning the logic.

00:43:00

Staring at the Clock and Liar's Prediction

The characters stare at the clock and realize the prediction of death was false.

00:43:13

Lack of Discussion and Character Interaction

Minimal discussion among characters is noted, with a brief exchange between Leslie Bibb and Jamie Foxx as an exception.

00:43:33

Unwavering Character and Lack of Arc

The movie is criticized for not giving Jamie Foxx's character an arc or making him question himself; he remains unwavering.

00:43:44

"I Don't Do Deals with Murderers"

Jamie Foxx's character states, "I don't do deals with murderers," which Gerard Butler's character acknowledges as him learning his lesson.

00:43:51

Need for Character Arc and Change

The importance of a character arc and the need for change are emphasized, which is felt to be lacking in Jamie Foxx's character.

00:43:58

Bruce McGill's Prediction and "Saving for Last"

Bruce McGill's character predicts that Gerard Butler is "saving you for last," adding suspense.

00:44:07

Jamie Foxx's Role and Promotion Motivation

The hosts question if Jamie Foxx's character was an inside man motivated by promotion, but conclude this is not the case.

00:44:15

Gruesome First Killing and Graphic Violence

The movie's graphic violence is discussed, specifically the first murder involving extreme mutilation.

00:44:32

Balls vs. Penis and Different Tools

The hosts question why different tools were used for different mutilations, finding the detail unnecessarily specific.

00:44:46

Softness of Genitalia and Butter Knife Analogy

The hosts humorously suggest that a butter knife could cut off genitalia due to its softness.

00:45:03

Carrot Up the Asshole and Graphic Detail

A disturbing detail involving a carrot and a character's anus is discussed, highlighting the movie's extreme violence.

00:45:10

Darby's Role and Deserving of Justice

The character Darby and whether he deserved his violent end are discussed, questioning his role.

00:45:23

First Murder and Satiation of Violence

The most gruesome killing occurs first, leaving the hosts feeling "satiated" by the violence.

00:45:36

Taking Down the System and Khaleesi Analogy

Gerard Butler's character shifts focus to taking down the system, compared to Daenerys Targaryen breaking the wheel.

00:45:46

Interrogation Room Scene Repetition

The repetition of an interrogation room scene, where Gerard Butler's character asks for a steak again, is pointed out.

00:46:01

Jamie Foxx's Disinterest and "Now I Care"

Jamie Foxx's character initially dismisses a request but eventually caves, saying, "Now I care."

00:46:10

Cop vs. Lawyer Confusion

The movie's confusion between police officers and lawyers is highlighted, as Jamie Foxx's character leads police into crime scenes.

00:46:31

Cell with a Gun and Permit Question

The hosts question Jamie Foxx's character's presence in a cell with a gun, suggesting it's a crime without a permit.

00:46:42

Degrees South and Minutes Longitude/Latitude

The hosts question Jamie Foxx's character's use of "degrees south" and "minutes" to measure distance, confusing time with spatial coordinates.

00:46:56

Audience Interaction and District Attorney

The hosts open the floor to audience questions and acknowledge a District Attorney in the front row.

00:47:21

Mackenzie's Confirmation and Daily Job

Mackenzie, a District Attorney, confirms that her daily job is similar to what's depicted in the movie.

00:47:48

Mackenzie's Role Identification

Mackenzie is asked if she identifies more with Leslie Bibb's character or Jamie Foxx's, referencing their age and career stage.

00:47:59

Favorite Execution and Cat Owner

Mackenzie is asked about her favorite execution and reveals she has many cats.

00:48:12

Plea Bargaining and Unworkable DA Role

Mackenzie discusses the unworkability of a DA not making deals with murderers, highlighting the necessity of plea bargaining.

00:48:20

Mayor Holding the Bible

The hosts clarify that the mayor, not Jamie Foxx, is holding the Bible in a specific scene.

00:48:37

Gary Penn and Mayor of Philadelphia

Gary Penn is identified as the mayor of Philadelphia, holding the Bible in the scene.

00:49:04

Making Deals with Murderers and Fox News

The prevalence of making deals with murderers in the criminal justice system is discussed, referencing Fox News's perspective.

00:49:13

Plea Bargaining and Criminal Justice System

Plea bargaining is acknowledged as a fundamental aspect of the criminal justice system.

00:49:21

Greta's Question and Anal Insult Meaning

Greta asks about the insult "take it up the fucking ass," questioning its meaning and why it's offensive.

00:50:06

Problem with "Anal" and Gay Panic Context

The insult is suggested to be offensive in 2009 due to a lack of normalization of anal sex and the presence of "gay panic."

00:50:17

2009 Context and Normalization of Anal Sex

The insult is reiterated as being more offensive in 2009 due to the context of the time.

00:54:37

Movie Scene Explanations and Audience Interaction

A movie scene where a character gets naked to show he's unarmed is discussed. Audience members share experiences as extras and discuss specific scenes, including a stabbing and the use of a rack of lamb.

00:56:34

Del Frisco's Anecdotes and Personal Stories

A story is shared about a server at Del Frisco's witnessing patrons choking on steak. Another anecdote involves an improv moment leading to a life-changing encounter.

00:57:41

NC-17 Rating and Graphic Content

The discussion shifts to the movie's original NC-17 rating, focusing on a bloody stabbing scene and graphic descriptions of dismemberment.

00:58:27

Batman Comparison and "Philly's Batman"

A listener compares the movie's premise to Batman's origin story, suggesting Gerard Butler could be "Philly's Batman." This sparks ideas for merchandise.

00:59:27

Actor Comparisons and Cinematic Universes

Parallels are drawn between Jamie Foxx's lawyer character and Tom Cruise's doctor in "Eyes Wide Shut," suggesting a shared cinematic universe.

01:00:12

Audience Participation and Movie Involvement

Audience members share their experiences of having their cars or even their house's roof featured in the movie.

01:01:36

The Robot Shotgun and Johnny Five Reference

The conversation turns to a "robot shotgun" in the movie, with a humorous comparison to Johnny Five from "Short Circuit."

01:02:09

Murdered Girl's Bracelets and Character Motivations

A listener questions the significance of a murdered girl making bracelets, leading to a discussion about character motivations.

01:03:13

Sequel Development and Franchise Potential

Information is shared about a potential standalone sequel, with Gerard Butler and Lucas Foster returning as producers.

01:04:15

Sequel Uncertainty and Prequel Ideas

Despite discussions about a sequel, prequel, or TV show, the exact direction remains unclear. Creative ideas for a prequel are proposed.

01:05:03

Napalm Misidentification and Plot Inconsistencies

The podcast critiques the movie's depiction of napalm, questioning a character's ability to identify it and the logic of transporting a volatile briefcase bomb.

01:06:01

Alternative Endings and Character Fates

Listeners discuss desired alternative endings, including the possibility of both main characters dying and the daughter's fate.

01:06:39

Original Casting and Role Swaps

It's revealed that Gerard Butler and Jamie Foxx were originally intended to play each other's roles.

01:07:18

"Second Opinions" and Audience Reviews

The segment "Second Opinions" features audience members sharing their reviews, with a focus on the movie's reception.

01:08:11

"Law & Order" Parody and Review Scores

A listener performs a parody song about the movie, set to the "Law & Order" theme. The discussion shifts to the movie's high average review score.

01:09:08

The Mystery of the Excavated Dirt

A humorous review focusing on the fate of the dirt excavated for the underground tunnel becomes a point of amusement.

01:10:15

QAnon Shaman's Review and Movie Appeal

A review attributed to the "QAnon shaman" is read, praising the movie's acting and story, leading to a discussion about the film's broad appeal.

01:11:26

Genre Comparisons and Blu-ray Grievances

The movie is compared to other thrillers like "Seven" and "Silence of the Lambs." An objection is raised against the promotion of Blu-ray exclusive content.

01:12:05

Trump's Potential Endorsement and Conviction Rates

A humorous scenario is proposed where Donald Trump might appoint Jamie Foxx's character as Attorney General due to his high conviction rate.

01:12:20

Justice System Critique and Character Impact

A review highlights the film's commentary on the justice system, emphasizing the need for victims' suffering to be mirrored by criminals.

01:14:25

Plot Inconsistencies and Realism Concerns

Several plot inconsistencies are pointed out, including the effects of neurotoxin, the functionality of the robot, and logistical impossibilities in prison procedures.

01:15:44

Misinterpreted Plot Summary

A humorous misinterpretation of the movie's plot is presented by someone who hasn't seen it.

01:18:07

Director's Departure and Script Changes

The podcast discusses Frank Darabont's departure from the film due to script changes, focusing on character likability and actor input.

01:19:51

Alternative Endings and Character Arcs

Various alternative endings are explored, including Jamie Foxx's character killing Clyde and Nick becoming the new "Clyde."

01:20:35

Underserved Characters and Filming Locations

The character of Leslie Bibb is noted as underserved by the script. The film's Philadelphia filming location is mentioned.

01:21:06

Personal Acting Experiences and Podcast Promotion

A listener shares their experience of filming one scene. The conversation transitions to promoting a podcast about men's health and an HBO comedy special.

01:22:41

Podcast Promotion and Sponsor Mentions

The hosts promote their podcast, "Staying Alive," and mention their sponsor, Smart List Mobile.

01:23:25

HBO Special and Podcast Recommendations

Adam Pally promotes his HBO special, and other shows and podcasts are recommended.

01:23:56

Show Plug and Book Promotion

"Taskmaster" season 19 is plugged, and a book titled "Joyful Work Collection to Trauma" is promoted.

01:24:33

Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement

The hosts thank the audience, encourage photo opportunities, and provide contact information for feedback, emphasizing subscribing to their podcast feed.

Keywords

Q&A

• What was the original rating of "Law Abiding Citizen" before it was edited for release?

  The movie was originally rated NC-17 due to its graphic violence, particularly a stabbing scene. It was later edited to receive an R rating for its theatrical release.

• How did an improv moment by an extra lead to a significant life event?

  An extra's improvised action in a movie scene caused him to lose a line but led him to attend a different party where he met his future wife, with whom he has been married for 11 years.

• What is the significance of the bracelets made by the murdered girl in the movie?

  The bracelets, inscribed with "Daddy" and "Heather," are a poignant detail that highlights the girl's love for her parents and adds an emotional layer to the tragedy, though their deeper symbolic meaning is open to interpretation.

• What are some of the plot inconsistencies pointed out by listeners regarding "Law Abiding Citizen"?

  Listeners noted issues like the effects of neurotoxin, the robot's EMP capabilities, the lack of scars on a stabbed character, and the unrealistic granting of keys to inmate cells by prison guards.

• What are some of the alternative endings discussed for "Law Abiding Citizen"?

  Alternative endings included Jamie Foxx's character killing Clyde, a hand-to-hand combat fight leading to Nick's arrest, and Nick making a deal to become the new "Clyde," essentially taking on a vigilante role.

• Why was Gerard Butler's character imprisoned?

  Gerard Butler's character was imprisoned after orchestrating a series of bombings and murders, turning himself in to face the justice system he aimed to expose.

• How did Gerard Butler's character escape prison to carry out his plans?

  Gerard Butler's character utilized a hidden tunnel system beneath the prison, allowing him to leave and return undetected each night to execute his plans.

• What was the main message or lesson of "Law Abiding Citizen"?

  The core message of "Law Abiding Citizen" is that one should not make deals with murderers, as their actions and motivations are inherently destructive and cannot be reasoned with.

• Did Jamie Foxx's character have an arc in "Law Abiding Citizen"?

  The hosts felt Jamie Foxx's character lacked a significant arc, remaining largely unwavering in his approach and not deeply questioning his actions or the system he represented.

• What was the significance of the Del Frisco's waiter in the prison scene?

  The presence of the Del Frisco's waiter in the prison scene was seen as an absurd detail, highlighting the film's unusual choices and questioning the logistics of such service on death row.

Show Notes