Matt Jensen – CEO of Vance Thompson Vision and Matt Jensen Marketing – Episode 03 Cognified Marketing and Selling Podcast
Matt Jensen is the CEO of Vance Thompson Vision in Sioux Falls, SD and the owner of Matt Jensen Marketing, also in Sioux Falls. We welcome Matt to the show today where he shares his thoughts and insights about all things related to the Experience Economy, operational excellence leading to world-class experiences, marketing ideas, how sales reps can get a doctor’s time, how to handle “haters,” and many other topics.
Topics Covered in Today’s Interview
We also talk a bit about the recent Tesla marketing strategy just to keep things interesting! Get the Podcast on iTunes.
Tune in for this 30-minute discussion with a premier Experience Economy certified person who is doing the work and building an amazing organization.
Matt and I first became friends in late 2003 when he joined Vance Thompson Vision from the advertising world. Matt offers insightful comments related to marketing and advertising in the educational episode.
In today’s episode, one of the books Matt talks about is called, Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. It sounds like a great book and the link takes you to Amazon so you may easily get a copy. I’ve already ordered mine!
Here’s the last episode in case you missed it: Donald Downer, MD of Clay Eye Physicians and Surgeons in Jacksonville, FL talks about Femtosecond Laser Assisted Cataract Surgery and how to add premium services to an ophthalmology practice.
Here’s the transcript of Episode 03 with Matt Jensen:
Joel Gaslin: [00:23] Welcome back to the Cognified Marketing and Selling Podcast. This is episode number three, and I'm grateful to have you back again to listen. My guest today is Matt Jensen. Matt's the CEO of Vance Thompson Vision in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and also the owner of Matt Jensen Marketing in Sioux Falls.
[00:40] Matt's been a long-time friend and colleague in ophthalmology. It's been fun to watch he, Vance Thompson, John Berdahl, Allison Tendler, and the other surgeons and physicians at Vance Thompson Vision become one of the premier LASIK and advanced cataract surgery practices in the United States.
[00:58] It's my great pleasure to have Matt on the program today. I'm grateful for his time and for also the insight that he offers in this episode. I think you're really going to enjoy it. Matt thanks for being on the program. Listen to the Podcast.
Matt Jensen: [01:10] Thanks Joel and I appreciate you inviting me. We were talking as we were getting ready for this how all we're doing during this podcast is talking about what we've been talking about our entire careers together anyway.
[01:22] Appreciate that introduction and you dedicated some time and energy towards this podcast, which I think is a needed tool and instrument and morsel of education for folks in our industry and abroad on the purposes of surrounding marketing and how it's changed.
[01:40] A little bit about my background is requested. I'm the CEO of Vance Thompson Vision, have been for the last five years or so. Have been around here really since 2004 and prior to that for four or so years was part of a direct consumer marketing company in the Midwest that worked mostly with health care but also with some renewable energy and renewable fuel and also some [inaudible] recreation companies.
[02:11] Marketing and communications have been part of my life-blood but never have they been more important than they are right now when it comes to this really underserved portion of the GDP or consumer spending which is health care.
[02:28] Talking about marketing and really treating our patients as guests or customers is a concept that's lost on a lot of people. That's been my life's work in the last decade and a half here at Vance Thompson Vision and it's been something that's been extremely gratifying.
Joel: [02:45] Well, that's great. Thanks, Matt. That's one thing I've noticed from you and from working with Dr. Thompson and the team for so many years, is I think one of Dr. Thompson's key insights early when he started Vance Thompson Vision, was to have a person like you involved, and not just be focused on the medical part of it.
[03:09] In my experience, in traveling around the country and visiting with various offices and physicians, there's a bit of a disconnect there sometimes. I think that a lot of people have become doctors and they believe that they treat sick people, and while that's true, there's also the landscape is changing so much.
[03:28] This is really the genesis for why I want to do what I'm doing here with this. There's sort of this line that used to be there between selling and marketing. Certainly, no one likes to use the word "selling" in the medical profession. Yet selling is a channel of marketing.
[03:47] I think that Vance's key insight of saying, "I have to have someone to help me on the commercial side of my business," and having you as the person and then the subsequent team that you've built, is really what's led to a lot of your success.
[04:01] I see people around the country who say, "I just want to be a doctor, and I don't want to do any of that stuff." I know that you and certainly in your Freshman, which year it was. I know you were one of the really early people that started helping to teach me about the whole Experience Economy.
[04:17] I know you went and got certified by Pine and Gilmore at the Experience Economy. I think the word "experience" is bandied about a lot these days. In your mind, what are the tenants of a practice that really is committed to an Experience Economy type of set up? How do you get started on that, and how do you think about that?
Matt: [04:42] I think you bring up a couple of interesting points, Joel. First of all, I think that a lot of practices do get it wrong, in that they do want to be providers, and they just want to focus on surgery.
[04:56] Dr. Thompson and now the other surgeons, Verdell, and Greenwood, and Tendler, and Swan, I think they get it right in that they understand the fundamentals of their economic model.
[05:08] That is, in any service industry, and it's certainly this way in health care, but it's also legal services, and accounting, any place where the top biller or the economic engine spends some time one-on-one with the client, or the customer. Any time that happens there has to be somebody else left behind to stand in the gap and represent them to all of the other patients, or customers, or clients, or team members to act in their stead.
[05:39] I think that's one of the things that they saw was wise, is they found someone, and it was me in this case, who learned quickly how to handle things the way they would when they're in the OR so it doubles their capacity. They've trained everybody on their team to act in such a manner.
[05:54] That's what they found extremely gratifying, is they can maximize their impact in that fashion. That's step one.
[06:05] As it relates to your commentary about the experience economy, most of the things that make something experiential are operations based. The best way to create a customer experience that's memorable is to stage a bad experience. We have all had memorable experiences in healthcare that we have gone home and told our friends about, or ranted about in social media or to others. It matters.
[06:35] When you skip how intimate those interactions are in healthcare, and how the most fundamental things that you do day-to-day in a healthcare environment are intimate, being experientially excellent means you have to be operationally excellent.
[06:52] By handling some of the more day-to-day or mundane things extremely well, like the phone, and the greet up front, and how you handle your materials you send out, and how you greet people and walk them down the hallway once they're here.
[07:06] How you do the workup during the consultation, and what language you use in the room, and on, and on, and on down the line, to the non-fear-based language during surgery and afterwards with family members and friends.
[07:18] If it's very intentional folks will walk away saying, "I don't know what it was, but that felt different. That felt special. That felt like I was fussed over."
[07:27] When you look at it from across the room you'll see that all the tactics that were used were operationally based. You were training staff. You were using scripting. You were doing all the things that most businesses are pretty reluctant to do because they kind of already know how to run their business in its current state.
Joel: [07:50] If you were to look at in the, what, 12 years you've been in ophthalmology now? Is that about right?
Matt: [07:59] Since the end of 2003. What does that make it?
Joel: [08:02] 13, 14 years.
Matt: [08:03] 13 years.
Joel: [08:02] What do you think's been the biggest change that you've seen? I'm thinking about it from a commercial standpoint in running a practice. If you had to say, "This is the biggest," what do you think it is?
Matt: [08:19] I think there really is an awakening right now with how people look at patients. I remember in the early days where I was affiliated with a health system it was very passé to call the patient the customer. You even were very reluctant to say the word selling. I think that that shift is happening in most of healthcare. It's not just ophthalmology.
[08:43] We use these concepts in primary care, in dentistry, in dermatology, in orthopedic medicine. It applies across the board. What I think is happening is that because of the shakeup on the payer side of the equation, companies and doctors are starting to realize that the end user is not only the patient, they are the customer.
[09:07] The payer system made us lose our sight on who is actually paying the fee. I think it's a good thing, though it's causing a lot of distress, the changes in the healthcare climate. It is reminding us who the customer is. You start to see that language set coming out now in healthcare commentary, in point-of-care training, and that's good.
[09:30] That's only going to be good for the end patient, and it's only going to make doctors who don't pass the test of being experientially excellent...they shouldn't be rewarded with more patients.
[09:45] The great thing about experience-based or word of mouth marketing is it makes good businesses do better, and it makes bad businesses who don't deserve the work go out of business. That natural order of things is good for the patient customer.
Joel: [10:02] No, that's great. That's really great insight. It's going to be a fun next 20 years in our business, especially with so many opportunities for new technology, and opportunities for being able to create your own vision and create vision that you've never had before in your lifetime, and all the options that are available out there. It's really fun.
[10:28] I know that Vance Thompson Vision, you really have a long...no, long's not the right word. I would say a wide array of patient exposure. What I mean by that is I've had the situation where I've been talking with physicians about opportunities to grow their practice, and I ask them if they market cataract services to their Lasik patients and Lasik patients to their cataract surgeons.
[10:58] More than one time I've had a surgeon look at me and say, "Well, do you understand the age difference between those people?" My response is always, "Yeah, of course I do, yet there's opportunities for cross-pollination in there."
[11:11] How do you think about that? Do you use email, database marketing, and do you use a CRM system to keep track and do that cross-pollination? How do you think about that aspect of your business?
Matt: [11:25] That's a really good question. First of all, the short answer is we do all of that. The answer to your question when it comes to marketing is yes. We want to be an early adopter of all those messaging types. We want to be in front of people and be of value.
[11:43] Now the sober part of the response, and that's that we want to do it last and not first. We only market as we feel like marketing. You're talking to somebody who...I have a marketing company that specializes in these things. We consider marketing and advertising to be a tax you pay for being unremarkable.
[12:05] The idea is in a continuum of four things we work on, marketing is always what we do last. First, we work on day-to-day operations. How do we make the more mundane things that I already mentioned on this podcast, how do we make them more exciting, and more fun, and a better experience for not only the patient customer but also our team, so our team has an outlet where they look forward to Monday morning?
[12:30] That kind of culture is really contagious, and patients can hear that when they call in. Secondly, how do we then take all of those same elements, the phone, the front, the workup, the exam room, and how do we make it now not operationally excellent, but experientially excellent?
[12:45] What's the difference between those things? How do we make it something that they would go home and tell their friends about, or that they would want to Facebook Live portions of their exam because it was so over the top experientially? If we've done those two things, we are already hitting a home run. Those two things are hard in and of themselves.
[13:05] Third, we work on our referrals. We work with referring eye care providers, referring businesses. We work with networks of key opinion leaders to see if friends and family would send...if that's a good way to secure new patients.
[13:20] Then, last, and only when necessary, we go to the marketing world. We keep in touch with all of our alumni because they'll tell our story in a word-of-mouth fashion, but I think that the real misconception out there in the world of healthcare is if you want more patients you should just run more ads.
[13:40] What you and I both know is all that's going to do it make you phone ring, If your phone seems broken, and your system's broken, you're running people off a cliff, and you can never expect them to come back. You have to do it in reverse order. You have to do it properly so everything works to your best benefit.
Joel: [13:59] You and I have talked about this, and you describe it really well. Getting the phone to ring isn't really very hard. It's what happens when you get that phone to ring, and what happens on the other end. Getting the phone to ring, you can write a check for it, frankly.
[14:16] Like I tell so many people, the practice growth or business development in the medical business to me is a lot like buying a gym membership. You can pay your membership every month, but unless you go, and do the work every day, and watch what you put in your mouth, you won't see any results.
[14:34] You said that really well, and I really liked your statement that you view marketing costs as a tax on an unremarkable experience. Did I remember that correctly?
Matt: [14:47] That's right. That's right. It's the tax you pay for being unremarkable in the first three categories.
Joel: [14:53] That's amazing. I like that.
Matt: [14:53] When you look at it like that, [laughs] everybody would have this bent towards how do we spend less. What would we need to do here differently if we wanted to spend nothing? That's an interesting provocation.
Joel: [15:06] It is. Frankly, it's so counterintuitive to so many people, Matt, because as you know...I know, as you mentioned, you have your role as a CEO of Vance Thompson Vision. Also, your own successful Matt Jensen Marketing company that goes and helps practices to grow.
[15:24] As you know, we at Sightpath have our own little agency called Sightpath Creative that we work within our own subset of clients. We believe in exactly what you're saying.
[15:33] We believe in foundational elements within the practice. How are we doing what we say we're going to do, and do we have the necessary collateral within the practice to help build referrals? Are we saying the right messages? Are we delivering the right experience?
[15:47] So many times people say, "Well, just show me where to run an ad," or "Show me where to place a billboard." It's like, "We can't help you there." [laughter] That's not where you start. It can be a little frustrating for them and for us.
[16:02] Frankly, we've had only limited success with it because many of the clients we work with, they're good with just having what they have for their business. Lasik is a sideline of what they do. They're general, well rounded, happily compensated ophthalmologists, and so they're good with how things are.
[16:23] We really try and evangelize the story that you may not be so good in 10 years when things are different and you haven't created the experience patients want, and things start to change, but that's the subject of another...
Matt: [16:37] The thing that's nice about that approach, Joel, is if you really pay attention to those first three categories first, what you haven't done is awoken the marketplace. You haven't told all of your competitors what you're doing yet, or what you're promoting, or how you're doing it.
[16:53] All you've done is treat your team, your referrals, and your existing customers, all you're doing is treating them like gold. As that starts to permeate, the better you do at it. All of a sudden, you're growing across town and nobody even knows why.
[17:09] It's exciting because they lose the ability to mimic you. They lose the ability to respond. It drives people batty. I don't relish the competitive part of business, but it is interesting from the market landscape, which is something that we study.
[17:27] When you talk about experiences, people tend to think, "Well, that's fluffy, and there's no ROI," but we've been able to really define an ROE, a return on investment, or a return on experience. In doing so, it is something where there's a market shift in the marketplaces that we work that's measurable.
Joel: [17:54] You certainly demonstrated that. You've successes unparalleled in this area, and it's been really fun to watch. You're all good people, too, and I think that helps, [laughs] for what that's worth.
Matt: [18:08] Thank you.
Joel: [18:09] If I may, I'd like to shift gears just a bit.
Matt: [18:13] Sure.
Joel: [18:13] I'd like to get your take on...In the role that you play, Matt, you have a lot of sales reps who come and call on you, and over the years, you've met different people and been involved in different things. In your mind, who are the smart sales people that are... and you don't say just names, just the people who you think are good in the industry right now and good at sales and marketing.
[18:36] Who are those people and what are they doing that you think is interesting?
Matt: [18:44] We're in the Upper Midwest, and so the trick there is, as you know, because you used to call on our practice back then, and it is how we met 15 years ago. In our case, it's simply showing up. The folks who come here once a year, we have to remind ourselves who they are, and remind ourselves who they work for, and remind ourselves what that company does every time they come in, which isn't often.
[19:13] The folks who are here every couple of weeks or every month, and they can be around, and they really have a certain mindset. They're around to give tips, they've secret shopped us, they're giving us tips on our phones, giving us tips on how [inaudible] was. They're telling me things that they've learned across the country in market outlooks.
[19:36] The real key message for anybody who's calling on a practice is figure out a way to serve them on your way in the door. Always bring something, always clip an article, and then just show up about twice as much as you're required to. If you do that, things will start to work well for you. People will grow in their dependence on you.
[19:59] I know that we looked at you as a resource for what was happening in the world because our eyes are down. Our eyes are down, and we're doing the work. That's my piece of advice for people approaching a practice.
[20:10] Practices today have an incredible amount of pressure on them, with new coding policies, and new MIPS reporting, and Meaningful Use strategies, and EHRs. The pie that is cataract surgery is getting strong, but meanwhile, the costs are going up and you can do the premium side, but there's a huge investment in the form of millions of dollars of capital [inaudible] , if you want to take a hard swing at that.
[20:41] I can see why a lot of people just put their hands up and say, "You know what? I'm kinda done with all that."
[20:49] When a rep comes in from any company saying, "Hey, we've got this new thing that costs money that's gonna help with all this," there naturally is one, air of skepticism, because they're already overwhelmed, or two, the sense that even if we did get it, we've already got so much on our plate, we couldn't possibly get to the implementation part.
[21:10] Just really being mindful of how not only to sell but how to implement and get things operational and the like is I critical for any rep of any company who supports a practice.
Joel: [21:22] That's great, and I appreciate that insight. You and I share that vision, and I do as the leader of the Sightpath Sales and Marketing team, one of the things that we've done is really shifted our focus to...
[21:37] The majority of our sales team lives in Minneapolis, and they travel into their territories with defined travel plans on regular intervals. We stay in touch via telephone and webinars trying to do things to add value and keep our name, and frankly some ideas and some thoughts in front of people, without being intrusive and saying, "Hey, I'm standing here in the lobby, and now you have to take 15 minutes to talk to me."
[22:06] That works periodically. Over time, I can see where if I'm an ophthalmologist, there are only so many hours in the day, and you very nicely laid out a lot of the challenges that are facing people. That's what we started doing, and the market seems to be responding to it pretty well.
[22:20] There are in fact some recent data I've seen where the younger ophthalmologists prefer to be educated via white papers and contacted via email and webinars and things like that rather than being interrupted in the clinics. That's what we're working on.
Matt: [22:37] That's interesting. The challenge to anybody who's calling on their clients or calling on a customer, or even sitting on a board or participating in a meeting is that when the meeting's over, the conversation is over, you have to ask yourself this solemn question and that is, "Did I bring any value?"
Joel: [23:00] Yeah, amen.
Matt: [23:00] When you look at the average rate of pay of ophthalmologists in this country, and you back that into what that hour cost found in productive time, and if they had a couple of staff members, you add their hourly rate of pay in. The little lunch you're holding with five or six people is the equivalent of $1,000.
[23:20] If they had to write a check for it, would they? That is a sobering question.
Joel: [23:24] That is a sobering thought. That's a really good way to think about it.
[23:26] One of the things you and I used to love to talk about back in the day, when I did call on you, is we talked about different books that we were reading. What books are you reading these days?
Matt: [23:40] I just finished a great book called "Thanks for the Feedback." It's extremely sobering. We are just embarking on the feedback through social media world, and we know that our patient customers are there. We've always had an approach to it, how you handle the responsiveness to it so people would give us feedback online or give us a star rating, choosing any one of many social media, and that's great.
[24:13] The question is this, in a regulated environment like health care, where there's protected information, how do you go about handling the one stars or the haters, or the people who are negative, and who do you assign that to? The book was extremely convicting on how to handle that.
[24:30] I really found it to be one, provocative. It opened my mind that there needed to be to higher priorities than I was making it, and two, once that provocation was made, it became like a field manual on how to set it up. For anyone listening, I think that that has been a real gearshift for our practice and how we have been responding to people's feedback online.
[24:55] You can use the Vance Thompson Vision social media channels to see how we're doing, if we're engaging people, if we get complaints about...somebody got on it and complained about wait time.
[25:07] Our response, and it should be nothing but, "Huh. Oh, we're so sorry. We'd love to talk to you about that offline, and see how we can recover some of your trust." Just to say that much and leave a direct line and a direct number and a title goes so far for others who might see that on the site, and for the person who we offended.
[25:31] Because we want to respect people's time, but a lot of people are very fearful. We are very fearful of engaging in social media because we feel like it will spin outside of our control, and so it's a pretty good tool. The author of it is Sheila Heen and Doug Stone, and...
Joel: [25:50] It's Thanks for the Feedback?
Matt: [25:52] Yeah, Thanks for the Feedback.
Joel: [25:54] I'll put that in the show notes so people can get to it.
Matt: [25:59] OK. Super.
Joel: [26:02] That sounds like that's a great book. Like you, I'm still reading a lot of books, and I'm a little behind in this one, but I read "The Challenger Sale" not long ago. Have you read that one?
Matt: [26:13] Yeah, challenges feel great, right?
Joel: [26:14] Yeah, yeah. What I loved about that one is how they...
Matt: [26:17] Uncomfortable.
Joel: [26:18] Yeah, uncomfortable when they talk about...The one thing you want to get someone to do is to say, "Gee, I haven't thought of it that way." I like that it's a simple aspirational goal of a sales call to provide value enough that someone says, "Hey, I hadn't thought of it that way," and then you've engaged them. I really liked that one.
[26:40] If you could be reincarnated as one business person, Matt, whom would it be, and what's one thing you'd do differently than they did?
Matt: [26:50] Isn't that a good question? Joel, one of the things that I think you and I appreciate about one another is that I've never spent a lot of time wanting to be in anybody else's shoes. I've felt pretty blessed to be in the shoes that I'm in, so I'm not sure that I'd want to come back as anybody else.
Joel: [27:13] I like that.
Matt: [27:14] A mentor of mine once said that there was a market opportunity that was completely blown and that I've never been able to get it out of my mind. I'll leave the mentor nameless, but I just don't want it to be credited back to me.
[27:29] The notion that Domino's Pizza and Blockbuster video never teamed up is a categorical crisis. People were going to get their movie, Domino's was already delivering to people's homes, and we know everybody renting a movie was ordering pizza anyway.
[27:46] That seems like a ready-made M&A opportunity that would have probably changed the face of mergers and acquisitions in the late '80s and early '90s, when they were the norm. I just think that looking back, you see some of those things through the lens of how people look at business now, and see the miss.
Joel: [28:09] Maybe Netflix should buy Dominoes. They've got a lot of cash, the could put a pop-up that goes right in the middle of the movie and says, "Hey, push here for your pizza," and it shows up... [laughs]
Matt: [28:21] No kidding, no kidding. I think that that's right. The biggest thing is creating new paradigms.
[28:31] You asked about books a minute ago. There's also a good book called "Zero To One." Just talking about the inertia that is stacked against people who create completely new categories, versus people who create the second one in a category, starting a brand new category is gutsy and hard, and makes you think laterally rather than directly.
[28:54] That's by Peter Thiel and Blake Masters, but it's incredibly valuable talking about brand new paradigms. This is what Apple is noted for, and what Tesla is noted for, and what Uber is noted for as being first, the very first in a whole new way of thinking about cost structure or paradigms.
Joel: [29:14] What do you think of Tesla's move to introduce that Model 3?
Matt: [29:23] I don't know about it.
Joel: [29:24] They've just introduced this Model 3. That's a $35,000 Tesla. What confuses me about it, Matt, is that the big automakers, in fact all the automakers have shown that they have to stratify the brand, otherwise you dilute one, because all these people have paid $70,000-$125,000 for these Tesla so far.
[29:43] All of a sudden they have these people who can go and have a Tesla for $35,000. Certainly, I'm no one to criticize, Elon Musk's success is well-validated. It seems to me it's just an odd thing.
[30:01] Maybe Apple buys Tesla and all of a sudden...
Matt: [30:05] I haven't followed it as closely as you already have, but if I were a gambling man or just looking from aside, I would say that it's a strategic move to build infrastructure, to get more units out, to get more pull. Not necessarily to create a category, because right now Teslas are mostly a purchase by the elite, right?
Joel: [30:27] Yeah, right.
Matt: [30:28] Until there's an economic viability for Johnny anywhere, it can't really be something that can scale internationally, like I think Elon hopes. Putting a midsize family style sedan out in the market will get that done in a hurry. If you got an option of choosing a Tesla versus a Chevy Cruise, now...
Joel: [30:55] [laughs] Yeah, you're right.
Matt: [30:56] it becomes a no brainer. Now, we've got to pull everywhere and there you go.
Joel: [31:00] It's interesting that Volvo announced yesterday that by 2019 all of their vehicles are going to be either electric or hybrid, and then Tesla's stock fell, I think 14 percent on that announcement which I sort of went, "Huh, OK. That seems to me would validate what..." I'm more of an interested observer on that than knowledgeable enough to make a lot of good comments.
[31:26] We'll stick to the script here I guess. I sort of went down a rabbit hole there on that one. We'll wrap this thing up, I know you got stuff to do. I'm grateful for your time. I just want to give you the opportunity at the end here, Matt. What's something that you're working on or promoting right now that you'd like to talk about and how did you get started with this project?
Matt: [31:47] One of the things that I get excited about, Joel, is how to apply these fundamental stuff we've learned about and then we've discussed here. Operations based approaches, experienced based approaches, working on KOLs and referrals and then handling the marketing and applying them to other concepts.
[32:10] Our marketing company apply these same principles to non-profits that are doing ministry-based, gospel-oriented work. Sometimes overseas, sometimes domestically, sometimes at intercity. It can be applied to health care which is even beyond B to B. There's a payer, there's a complication of customer base. The whole systems influx, it can be applied to the financial...it's pretty unilateral how fundamentals can be applied.
[32:43] When it comes to thinking about experiences, it really involve in the folks who are working on it because it's just fun work to do. All you have to do is treat people great and create systems around treating people great which makes the people doing the treating feel great. It makes an environment great to work in. It's good business.
[33:07] That's what I would leave you with, that when people apply these principles, what I get excited about the future of our company and we're affiliated with is that if they apply these principles, bar none, life's better for them and their customers.
Joel: [33:24] Amen.
Matt: [33:25] It's really good business. But beyond that it's also just the right thing to do. It's the right way to treat people. So we get excited about that. That's the mission we're on. We feel like it's good business and part of our calling. I appreciate you having me on today.
Joel: [33:42] Man, I can't thank you enough for being on the program. It's always a pleasure to get caught up, love hearing about the things that you're working on and thinking about and what you and the other folks at Vance Thompson and Matt Jensen Marketing are doing to help make the commercial aspects of ophthalmology and the world, in general, a better place.
[34:01] Thanks a lot. And thanks to the listeners for stopping here once again to listen to the Cognified Marketing and Selling Podcast. Look forward to the next upcoming episode, which my guest will be Mr. Scott Hussey. Scott is the Vice President of Sales of Upsher-Smith Laboratories. Also, Scott was my first boss out of college, I'm grateful to hear his thoughts. Tune back and that one will be up shortly.