Sam Harris on Jew-Hatred, Radical Islam, and the West
3Digest
This episode of EconTalk features a conversation between Russ Roberts and Sam Harris, a neuroscientist, philosopher, and author, about the threat of radical Islam and the challenges facing the West in responding to it. Harris argues that the West needs to take a more assertive stance against extremism, including military action against groups like Hamas. He criticizes the liberal discomfort of tolerance and the tendency of moderate Muslims to reflexively defend their co-religionists, even when those individuals engage in violent and extremist behavior. Harris also discusses the importance of understanding the motivations and beliefs of those who engage in violence, even if those beliefs are morally repugnant. He emphasizes the need for a civil war of ideas within the Muslim world to marginalize jihadism and Islamism. The conversation also touches on the situation on US college campuses, where Harris expresses concern about the influence of far-left moral confusion and identity politics. He highlights the double standard in the treatment of anti-Semitism compared to other forms of bigotry on college campuses and discusses the "ratchet effect" of anti-Semitism, where incremental changes in the wrong direction can lead to a normalization of hostility towards Jews. Harris also explores the potential consequences of Jews disappearing from Israel, arguing that it would lead to Islamist triumphalism and a resurgence of jihadism. The episode concludes with a discussion about the unpleasant choices facing the West: maintaining a tolerance that comes at a price or adopting a more vigilant stance that risks eroding its humanity.
Outlines
Introduction and Welcome: The Threat of Radical Islam
The podcast begins with an introduction to Econ Talk, a show featuring conversations for the curious, hosted by Russ Roberts. The episode's guest is neuroscientist, philosopher, and author Sam Harris, who will discuss the threat of radical Islam and the challenges facing the West in responding to it.
The Situation on US Campuses: The Rise of Far-Left Ideologies
Sam Harris discusses the protests that occurred on US college campuses at the end of the school year, expressing concern about the influence of far-left moral confusion and identity politics. He argues that these ideologies have captured elite institutions like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford.
The Hypocrisy and Dangers of Anti-Semitism: A Double Standard on Campuses
Sam Harris highlights the double standard in the treatment of anti-Semitism compared to other forms of bigotry on college campuses. He expresses concern about the toleration of physical intimidation and the slow rise of anti-Semitic activity in North America and Europe.
The Ratchet Effect of Anti-Semitism: Normalizing Hostility Towards Jews
Sam Harris discusses the "ratchet effect" of anti-Semitism, where incremental changes in the wrong direction can lead to a normalization of hostility towards Jews. He uses the example of security measures at a synagogue on Fifth Avenue in New York City to illustrate this point.
Taking Anti-Semitism Seriously: A Personal Perspective
Sam Harris shares his personal experience of taking anti-Semitism seriously after the October 7th Hamas attacks. He acknowledges the historical echoes of anti-Semitic violence and the need for vigilance in the face of rising hostility.
The Holocaust and the Possibility of Neighborly Violence: Lessons from History
Sam Harris discusses the Holocaust and the possibility of ordinary people turning on their Jewish neighbors. He argues that the Holocaust was not just a result of Nazi Germany's unique evil, but also a consequence of the normalization of anti-Semitism and the lack of accountability for violence against Jews.
The Asymmetry of Influence and Power: The Advantage of the Uncivilized
Sam Harris discusses the asymmetry of influence and power between those willing to use force and violence and those who are civilized and uneasy about confronting that violence. He argues that the uncivilized have a tremendous advantage in such situations.
The Importance of Standing Up to Anti-Semitism: Taking Risks for Justice
Sam Harris emphasizes the importance of standing up to anti-Semitism, even when it involves taking risks. He uses the example of construction workers who stood up to people tearing down signs of hostages after the October 7th Hamas attacks.
The Question of Assimilation and Jewish Identity: A Response to Rising Anti-Semitism
Sam Harris and Russ Roberts discuss the question of assimilation and Jewish identity in the face of rising anti-Semitism. Sam Harris acknowledges the appeal of assimilation as a way to avoid persecution, but ultimately rejects it as a solution.
The Endgame for Civilization: Unraveling Religious Tribalism
Sam Harris discusses his past belief that the endgame for civilization should involve the Jews being the first to recognize the need to unravel religious tribalism and embrace a common humanity. He acknowledges the potential benefits of this approach, but ultimately rejects it as a solution to the problem of anti-Semitism.
The Consequences of Jewish Disappearance: Islamist Triumphalism and Resurgent Jihadism
Sam Harris explores the potential consequences of Jews disappearing from Israel. He argues that it would lead to Islamist triumphalism and a resurgence of jihadism, potentially escalating violence and conflict globally.
Israel as a Bulwark for the West: Defending Against Radical Islam
Sam Harris argues that Israel is on the front lines of the West, defending not just itself but the West as a whole from the threat of radical Islam. He highlights the attacks from Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran as evidence of this threat.
Qatar's Influence on American Campuses: Funding an Islamist Agenda
Sam Harris discusses Qatar's significant financial contributions to American universities, suggesting that this funding may be used to promote an Islamist agenda and influence academic scholarship.
The Uncomfortable Truth About Radical Islam: An Ideological and Theological Threat
Sam Harris discusses his uncomfortable but necessary critique of radical Islam. He argues that the threat posed by radical Islam is not just a political conflict over land, but a deeply rooted ideological and theological one.
The Courage of Ex-Muslims: Speaking Out Against Islam
Sam Harris acknowledges the courage of ex-Muslims who speak out against Islam, despite the risks they face. He highlights the penalty for apostasy under Islam and encourages listeners to listen to ex-Muslims to gain a deeper understanding of the issue.
The Sincerity of Religious Belief: The Case of Jihadists
Sam Harris argues that the sincerity of religious belief should not be underestimated, particularly in the case of jihadism. He rejects the notion that jihadism is simply a matter of male bonding or propaganda, arguing that it is rooted in a genuine belief in the afterlife and the rewards of martyrdom.
The Distinctive Nature of Islam: Militancy, Conquest, and Subjugation
Sam Harris discusses the distinctive nature of Islam compared to other major religions. He highlights the emphasis on militancy, conquest, and the subjugation of non-Muslims as key differences.
The Plausibility of Islamic Extremism: The Actions of the Islamic State
Sam Harris argues that the Islamic State's actions were a plausible manifestation of Islamic theology. He contrasts this with other religions, where such extreme behavior would be considered a clear deviation from the faith.
The Problem of Complicity and Moderation: The Role of Peaceful Muslims
Sam Harris discusses the problem of complicity and moderation within Islam. He acknowledges the existence of peaceful Muslims who reject extremism, but argues that the faith's core tenets can be interpreted in ways that justify violence and oppression.
The Collision of Islam and Secular Rationality: The Intellectual Isolation of the Muslim World
Sam Harris argues that Islam has not yet undergone the same collision with secular rationality that has moderated other religions like Christianity. He highlights the intellectual isolation of the Muslim world and the power of ideas in shaping human behavior.
The Power of Ideas and the Threat of Bad Ideas: The Importance of Critical Thinking
Sam Harris emphasizes the power of ideas and the threat posed by bad ideas. He argues that the real problem is not just bad people, but psychologically normal people who believe dangerous and divisive things.
The Taboo of Criticizing Religious Ideas: The Need for Open Dialogue
Sam Harris discusses the taboo of criticizing religious ideas, even in secular contexts. He argues that this taboo prevents a necessary collision of ideas and allows dangerous beliefs to go unchallenged.
The Message of the Quran and the Fear of Hell: A Call to Read the Text
Sam Harris argues that the Quran's central message is not about love or compassion, but about the fear of hell and the need to shun and revile unbelievers. He encourages listeners to read the Quran for themselves to understand its true message.
The Uncomfortable Truth and the Need for Vigilance: The Threat of Hamas and Radical Islam
Sam Harris acknowledges the discomfort caused by his critique of radical Islam, but argues that it is necessary to take the threat seriously. He highlights the deliberate targeting of civilians by Hamas and the numerous examples of violence committed in the name of Islam.
The Challenge of Radical Islam and the West's Response: A Call for Assertiveness
Sam Harris discusses the challenge of radical Islam and the West's response. He argues that the West needs to take a more assertive stance against radical Islam, including military action against groups like Hamas.
The Discomfort of Truth and the Dangers of Guilt by Association: Clarifying the Critique
Sam Harris addresses the discomfort caused by his critique of radical Islam and the dangers of guilt by association. He clarifies that his criticism is not rooted in racism or bigotry, but in a concern about the power of dangerous ideas.
Islam as a Set of Ideas and the Importance of Taking People at Their Word: Challenging the Narrative
Sam Harris emphasizes that Islam is a set of ideas, not a race. He argues that it is important to take people at their word, especially when their actions align with their stated beliefs.
The Sincerity of Belief and the Psychology of Extremism: Understanding the Roots of Radicalization
Sam Harris argues that people often believe what they say they believe, even in the case of extreme ideologies like racism and jihadism. He rejects the notion that these beliefs are simply a cover for other motivations, arguing that they can be genuinely held by psychologically normal people.
The Cultural Context of Belief and the Reality of Jihad: The Power of Interpretation
Sam Harris argues that the belief in jihad is not a product of mental illness, but a cultural norm within many Muslim communities. He highlights the ease with which people can be led to believe in the Quran's literal interpretation and the consequences of that belief.
The Power of Ideas and the Personal Experience of Belief: A Journey of Transformation
Sam Harris discusses the power of ideas and his own personal experience of holding extreme beliefs in his youth. He argues that the same psychological mechanisms that led him to embrace meditation could have led him to embrace jihadism if he had been exposed to Islam in a different context.
The Need for a Civil War of Ideas: Marginalizing Jihadism and Islamism
Sam Harris argues that the Muslim world needs to undergo a civil war of ideas to marginalize jihadism and Islamism. He believes that the West needs to win wars against jihadism and political wars against Islamism, including the destruction of groups like Hamas.
The Liberal Discomfort of Tolerance and the Challenge of Distinguishing Between Peaceful and Radical Muslims: A Moral Dilemma
Russ Roberts discusses the liberal discomfort of tolerance and the challenge of distinguishing between peaceful and radical Muslims. He acknowledges the difficulty of taking people at their word when their actions contradict their stated beliefs.
The Risk of Justifying Violence and the Challenge of Maintaining Humanity in War: The Moral Complexities of Conflict
Russ Roberts expresses concern about the risk of justifying violence against Palestinians if the West adopts a more assertive stance against radical Islam. He highlights the moral complexities of war and the need to maintain humanity even in the face of a dangerous enemy.
The Unpleasant Choices Facing the West: Tolerance or Vigilance?
Russ Roberts concludes by arguing that the West faces two unpleasant choices: maintaining a tolerance that comes at a price or adopting a more vigilant stance that risks eroding its humanity. He expresses pessimism about the outcome of this conflict.
The Challenge of Fighting Evil: The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
The conversation begins with a discussion about the difficulty of fighting evil, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The speaker expresses concern about the West's reluctance to engage in a forceful response to violence and the potential for unintended consequences.
Navigating the Moral High Ground: Maintaining Integrity in the Face of Evil
The discussion shifts to the importance of maintaining moral integrity while responding to violence. The speaker argues that the West must be careful not to become brutalized in its own response to evil, emphasizing the need to preserve the values it seeks to defend.
The Limits of Pacifism: The Triumph of Evil
The speaker critiques pacifism as an ethical position, arguing that it can lead to the triumph of evil. He uses the example of Gandhi and the Holocaust to illustrate the potential consequences of refusing to use force in the face of aggression.
The Asymmetry of Violence: The Moral Divide Between Israel and Hamas
The speaker highlights the stark asymmetry in the nature of violence between Israel and Hamas. He argues that Hamas's willingness to use civilians as human shields and its commitment to the destruction of Israel are fundamentally different from Israel's approach to conflict.
The Moral Landscape of Conflict: The Incompatibility of Israel and Hamas
The speaker emphasizes the vast ethical gulf between Israel and Hamas, arguing that their respective moral projects are fundamentally incompatible. He points to Hamas's use of human shields and its religious justification for violence as evidence of this moral asymmetry.
Understanding the Other: Empathy and Engagement
The speaker stresses the importance of understanding the motivations and beliefs of those who engage in violence, even if those beliefs are morally repugnant. He argues that empathy, rather than demonization, is necessary for effective engagement with the other.
The Problem of Moderate Muslims: The Culture of Silence
The speaker criticizes the tendency of moderate Muslims to reflexively defend their co-religionists, even when those individuals engage in violent and extremist behavior. He argues that this tendency undermines the fight against jihadism and perpetuates a culture of silence.
The Role of Disavowal: Genuine Condemnation and the False Narrative
The speaker addresses the argument that Muslims have not sufficiently disavowed terrorism. He argues that disavowal must be genuine and not merely a tactic to deflect criticism. He also criticizes organizations like CAIR for their ties to Islamism and their role in promoting a false narrative about Islam.
The Need for Honest Dialogue: Acknowledging the Problematic Aspects of Islam
The speaker calls for a more honest and forthright dialogue about the challenges posed by Islamism. He argues that Muslims must acknowledge the problematic aspects of their own faith and actively work to counter extremist ideologies.
A Glimpse of Hope: Coexistence in Israel
The speaker offers a more optimistic perspective, highlighting the coexistence of Jews and Arabs within Israel. He argues that the success of this coexistence provides a model for a more peaceful future, but acknowledges the challenges posed by extremist ideologies.
The Power of Ideas: Education and Pluralism
The speaker emphasizes the importance of education and the power of ideas to change minds. He argues that a new generation can be taught to embrace pluralism and reject religious tribalism, creating a more tolerant and peaceful world.
Strategies for Change: Attracting the Secular and Defeating Jihadists
The speaker outlines two key strategies for combating extremism: making the secular world more attractive and defeating jihadists through force. He argues that the West must demonstrate the superiority of its values and be willing to use force against those who threaten its security.
Keywords
Hamas
Hamas is a Palestinian Islamist political organization and militant group that controls the Gaza Strip. It is considered a terrorist organization by many countries, including the United States and Israel.
Islamism
Islamism is a political ideology that seeks to establish an Islamic state based on Islamic law. It is often associated with the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups that advocate for the implementation of Sharia law.
Jihad
Jihad is an Arabic word that means "struggle" or "effort." In Islamic theology, it can refer to a spiritual struggle against one's own inner demons or a physical struggle against enemies of Islam.
Anti-Semitism
Anti-Semitism is hostility or discrimination against Jews. It is a form of prejudice and bigotry that has been prevalent throughout history and continues to manifest in various forms, including violence, hate speech, and social exclusion.
October 7th
October 7th, 2023, marks the date of the Hamas attack on Israel, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Israelis and the kidnapping of dozens more. This event has had a profound impact on Israeli society and has heightened tensions in the region.
Qatar
Qatar is a small, wealthy country located on the Arabian Peninsula. It is known for its vast oil and gas reserves and its role in international politics. Qatar has been accused of funding Islamist groups and promoting an Islamist agenda.
Making Sense
Making Sense is a podcast hosted by Sam Harris, where he discusses a wide range of topics, including philosophy, religion, science, and current events. The podcast is known for its intellectual rigor and Harris's willingness to challenge conventional wisdom.
The Bright Line Between Good and Evil
"The Bright Line Between Good and Evil" is an episode of Sam Harris's podcast Making Sense, where he discusses the nature of radical Islam and its threat to the West. The episode is known for its blunt and uncompromising critique of Islam.
Q&A
What are some of the concerns about the situation on US college campuses, according to Sam Harris?
Sam Harris is concerned about the influence of far-left moral confusion and identity politics on college campuses, particularly at elite institutions. He believes that these ideologies have captured these institutions and are shaping the views of future generations.
How does Sam Harris view the role of Israel in the current conflict with radical Islam?
Sam Harris believes that Israel is on the front lines of the West, defending not just itself but the West as a whole from the threat of radical Islam. He argues that the attacks from Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran are a direct threat to Western values and security.
What are some of the challenges facing the West in responding to the threat of radical Islam?
The West faces a difficult choice between maintaining a tolerant approach that comes at a price or adopting a more vigilant stance that risks eroding its humanity. The difficulty of distinguishing between peaceful and radical Muslims makes it challenging to implement effective policies.
What are the main challenges in fighting evil, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
The speaker highlights the difficulty of fighting evil without becoming brutalized in the process. He also expresses concern about the West's reluctance to engage in a forceful response to violence and the potential for unintended consequences.
How can we maintain moral integrity while responding to violence?
The speaker emphasizes the importance of preserving the values we seek to defend while responding to evil. He argues that we must be careful not to become brutalized in our own response to violence.
What are the limitations of pacifism as an ethical position?
The speaker argues that pacifism can lead to the triumph of evil, citing the example of Gandhi and the Holocaust. He suggests that pacifism is not always an adequate response to aggression.
What are the key differences between Israel and Hamas in terms of their approach to violence?
The speaker highlights the stark asymmetry in the nature of violence between Israel and Hamas. He argues that Hamas's willingness to use civilians as human shields and its commitment to the destruction of Israel are fundamentally different from Israel's approach to conflict.
How can we better understand the motivations and beliefs of those who engage in violence?
The speaker stresses the importance of empathy and understanding, rather than demonization, when engaging with those who hold morally repugnant beliefs. He argues that understanding the other is crucial for effective engagement.
What is the role of moderate Muslims in combating extremism?
The speaker criticizes the tendency of moderate Muslims to reflexively defend their co-religionists, even when those individuals engage in violent and extremist behavior. He argues that this tendency undermines the fight against jihadism and perpetuates a culture of silence.
What are the key strategies for combating extremism?
The speaker outlines two key strategies: making the secular world more attractive and defeating jihadists through force. He argues that the West must demonstrate the superiority of its values and be willing to use force against those who threaten its security.
Show Notes
Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris of the podcast Making Sense talks with EconTalk's Russ Roberts about rising Jew-hatred in the West and what Harris sees as the dangers of radical Islam and Jihadism.
Table of contents
United States
