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Squawk Pod Reports from Davos: Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff 01/24/25
Update: 2025-01-24
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In an extended interview at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff tells Andrew Ross Sorkin about the future of technology innovation. Benioff discusses AI, Microsoft, working with the Trump administration, and the White House’s joint venture Stargate, in partnership with SoftBank, OpenAI, and Oracle.
Marc Benioff - 3:37
In this episode:
Andrew Ross Sorkin, @andrewrsorkin
Katie Kramer, @Kramer_Katie
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Transcript
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00:00:51
The World Economic Forum, which is always due to sales forces, its fundamental data infrastructure, is running this year with agents.
00:00:59
That is, we have agents and humans working together for the first time here at the World Economic Forum.
00:01:06
Sales for CEO Mark Benioff at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.
00:01:11
Highlighting how the company is powering a groundbreaking shift in tech, he shares his thoughts on the future of AI.
00:01:18
It's extremely important that open AI gets to other platforms quickly because Microsoft is building their own AI, and I don't think that Microsoft will use open AI in the future they'll have their own frontier models.
00:01:30
And Benioff on the political landscape and how business leaders should adapt.
00:01:35
I think you have to find your way with Donald Trump on the things that he cares about, and one of the things that he cares about is actually things like trees, oceans, air.
00:01:43
If you listen to what he says and you focus on those things, you can make a lot of progress.
00:01:47
Plus, what's next for Sales Force?
00:01:50
Our software is, this is why we're now the second largest software company in the world.
00:01:54
Our software is excellent.
00:01:56
We can help automate these companies.
00:01:58
We help them connect with their customers in a whole new way.
00:02:01
I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer, SquawkPod reports Sales Force CEO Mark Benioff begins right now.
00:02:17
So here it is, our last interview from the 55th annual World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and it's a big one.
00:02:23
Sales Force CEO Mark Benioff.
00:02:30
There are lots of other Davos interviews already on your SquawkPod feed, please don't forget to download those as well.
00:02:37
This conversation, like some of those others, covered news that broke in Washington, far from the Swiss Alps at the beginning of the week, the White House's announcement of Stargate, a $100 billion,
00:02:47
potentially $500 billion joint venture, with Oracle run by Larry Ellison, SoftBank run by Massasson, an open AI run by Sam Altman.
00:02:57
There are other partners too, like Tech Powerhouse Invidia.
00:03:01
But just those three, the men behind Oracle, SoftBank, and OpenAI, were at the White House lecturing with President Donald Trump for the announcement.
00:03:09
It's my honor to welcome three of the world's leading technology CEOs.
00:03:14
Sales Force CEO Mark Benioff, friendly with each of those technology leaders, sat down with CNBC SquawkBox anchor Andrew Ross-Sorkin for an extended interview in Davos.
00:03:25
Mark Benioff, thank you for being here.
00:03:27
Always great to be with you, thank you for having me again.
00:03:30
We got to talk about a million things.
00:03:33
Davos, maybe the-- You're going to have to reduce to 900,000.
00:03:36
Vibeshift?
00:03:37
I think here in Davos, I want to talk to you about that because I think there's been a real shift there.
00:03:41
Okay.
00:03:42
Want to talk to you about the politics in the U.S.? Yes.
00:03:44
Want to talk to you about Agent Force and AI.
00:03:45
Okay.
00:03:46
Let's start there.
00:03:47
Lots of divergent conversations about AI.
00:03:48
And then I want to also talk to you a little bit about the news of the day, and I was actually going to ask you if I could start there.
00:03:53
Because there's a lot of conversation about this $500 billion effort by OpenAI and Larry Ellison and SoftBank.
00:04:01
Very exciting.
00:04:03
And I'm so curious to-- They're like some of my very favorite people.
00:04:05
And some friends of yours.
00:04:07
So I was going to ask you what you make of all of this.
00:04:10
It's amazing.
00:04:11
I mean, these are people who have made our whole industry.
00:04:15
When you look at Mossasson or you look at Larry Ellison, and I think you know Larry Ellison is my mentor, so I have spoken to him about his vision for how to cure cancer with AI, and he rolled it out yesterday at the White House.
00:04:27
I'm extremely proud of him.
00:04:29
Do you think it's actually going to happen?
00:04:30
The reason I asked is, I don't know if you saw, but Elon Musk has been sub-tweeting that they don't have the money to do it.
00:04:37
I can just tell you, well, it's kind of funny.
00:04:41
I would always say, don't short Larry Ellison and don't short Elon Musk.
00:04:46
And by the way, they're two very good friends of each other, but Larry has a vision for the future of health care.
00:04:53
And that's also why he bought Cerner, that's why he's been focused on these incredible Ellison institutes in Los Angeles and in Oxford, England.
00:05:00
And they have a vision that they're going to kind of use the technology that kind of was pioneered at Grail, where you get a blood test so you can see what's going on in your blood, but then use AI.
00:05:10
And then build therapeutics for each individual based on, it's incredible.
00:05:14
Do you think that is going to impact perhaps your biggest competitor, Microsoft, in that open AI was exclusive to Azure, and now they're going to be on other platforms, and does that matter to a company like yours?
00:05:25
I think it's extremely important that open AI gets to other platforms quickly because Microsoft is building their own AI.
00:05:33
And I don't think that Microsoft will use open AI in the future, they'll have their own frontier models.
00:05:38
They've said it very clearly that it's too expensive and too hard for them, and that they want to have their own.
00:05:43
That's why they hired Mustafa Suleiman and Mustafa Suleiman and Sam Altman are not best friends.
00:05:48
So you think this is the beginning of the fissure?
00:05:50
Like you're actually, this may be the moment.
00:05:52
I think that that happened actually quite a while ago, but nobody in terms of it actually happened a year ago here in Davos, or where Sam and Mustafa were both on panels together and we're not getting along well,
00:06:06
persona non grata.
00:06:08
One last related question, were you surprised at the deal insofar as you had Sam Altman standing behind the presidential podium?
00:06:17
He of course is the great nemesis of Donald Trump's great friend Elon Musk, your great friend.
00:06:24
This is a moment where we all have to regain our beginner's mind.
00:06:27
A phrase that I cherish myself when I started my meditation this morning, this Japanese idea, Shoshin, regain your beginner's mind.
00:06:37
I think with this political administration, we're all going to need to regain our beginner's mind and see how things are going to play out.
00:06:42
So how's that been for you though?
00:06:44
I'm curious.
00:06:45
Actually, somebody who's been a Democrat for many years, you have this election, you're seeing it all play out in front of you.
00:06:51
I've never been.
00:06:52
I've actually never been a Democrat.
00:06:55
I was a Republican for many years, I was in the Bush administration and then I became an independent after that.
00:07:01
And look, I have said I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, I've worked now with five or six different presidents.
00:07:08
I can work with anyone that is how I roll.
00:07:11
That's important to me.
00:07:12
I'll do whatever I can to support the administration and I will, you know, root for the United States of America.
00:07:20
I'm an American.
00:07:21
What do you make of my number one?
00:07:22
What do you make of big tech going to Washington though right now?
00:07:26
That is a moment.
00:07:27
I think when you.
00:07:28
No, it is a moment.
00:07:29
What do you think of that?
00:07:30
I don't think that I've ever seen some of those images with everybody together, you know, these are not, these aren't best friends who are all gathered together.
00:07:39
It looks like they're having a party together.
00:07:42
They're all actually, you know, but very serious competitors.
00:07:45
But there's some people who are very serious.
00:07:47
There's some people who are very excited about that.
00:07:48
Yeah.
00:07:49
And then there are other people who say that they're bending, you know, they're bending at the knee.
00:07:53
No.
00:07:54
Number one, what?
00:07:55
How do you see it?
00:07:56
Number one, the United States of America has a tremendous lead in artificial intelligence and in technology.
00:08:02
The vast majority, the frontier models, the AI, the research that's come out of our universities, and you're seeing that manifest into our tech companies.
00:08:10
And that's what's incredible.
00:08:11
And then you see that right here play out at the administration where these are the leaders of all the most important companies are all Americans.
00:08:18
One of the reasons I, so desperately wanted to talk to you this year specifically here in Davos is, you know, so many of the things that emanated here that you and I have talked about over the years, that related around things like ESG and climate and other things.
00:08:32
I think it's fair to say that Davos man is under attack, meaning those ideas, the vibe shift is different.
00:08:38
Absolutely.
00:08:39
Well, first of all, I don't agree.
00:08:41
Okay.
00:08:42
So number one, obviously Donald Trump and Klaus Schwab, who's the head of the World Economic Forum, are very close friends.
00:08:48
You know, Klaus Schwab and Donald Trump, you know, spent a lot of, they have a lot of time for each other.
00:08:54
Right.
00:08:55
And you're going to see Donald Trump here at this conference virtually, and I'm sure you're going to see him here next year physically.
00:09:01
And he was here when he was, you know, president, you know, four years ago, five years ago.
00:09:06
And I think that, you know, you probably remember that I worked very hard on the trillion tree initiatives.
00:09:13
I remember I had, I brought it down to here.
00:09:16
But Donald Trump launched it here, and I think you have to find your way with Donald Trump and the things that he cares about.
00:09:23
And one of the things that he cares about is actually things like trees, oceans, air.
00:09:28
If you listen to what he says and you focus on those things, you can make a lot of progress.
00:09:33
And I hope, for example, that we can make a lot of progress in the oceans.
00:09:37
This is really on my mind.
00:09:39
You know, we need to get the plastics out of the oceans.
00:09:41
We need to address some of the things going on in the ocean, overfishing the coral issues, especially we look at what's happened in the last six months with coral bleaching.
00:09:50
These are moments where, hey, I'd love it if the Trump administration came in because the Biden administration didn't focus on the oceans at all.
00:09:59
It was actually something that I was very disappointed in.
00:10:01
Let's talk AI because that's the topic to your hear if we're not talking about Washington these days.
00:10:06
And I'm curious where you think we are now we're finally talking about something important.
00:10:10
Here we are.
00:10:11
You know, I saw Dario Modi yesterday from Anthropic.
00:10:15
And the timeline with which he's now talking about something close to AGI is much shorter than I would imagine.
00:10:24
Two, three, four years out at a time where you've been making comments that Microsoft's version of open AI is like Clippy.
00:10:34
And so I'm trying to have these two ideas in my head that were two or three years away from having to re-shape society and you saying that the thing doesn't even work.
00:10:45
Yeah.
00:10:46
Well, we already know co-pilot has failed.
00:10:47
You can see it has no adoption.
00:10:48
It's just repacketed.
00:10:49
That's not true.
00:10:50
But that's not true.
00:10:51
Sure.
00:10:52
You can talk to Gartner.
00:10:53
You can read, you know, these analyst reports, it's not what AI was meant to be.
00:10:58
What AI is meant to be is what we were just talking about.
00:11:00
The world economic forum, you know, which is always new sales force as its fundamental data infrastructure, you know, is running this year.
00:11:09
With agents.
00:11:10
That is, we have agents and humans working together for the first time here at the world economic forum.
00:11:16
And that's incredible.
00:11:17
It's just making everybody is blive so much easier.
00:11:20
So I have a digital agent that I'm working with.
00:11:22
We just went through it on my phone.
00:11:24
And I'm able to work with it, talk to it, it knows what, sessions I'm interested in know so I'm friends with and I'm having a much better experience here at Davos.
00:11:32
And that is what AI was meant to be.
00:11:34
So when we hear people talking about large language models and $500 billion investments and all of that, how are we supposed to think about what all of that versus what you're doing with agent force?
00:11:46
What we should be seeing is that every company is going to become agent first.
00:11:51
When I, one of the agent first, like America first, agent first, like America first, agent first.
00:11:58
So I'll give you an example.
00:11:59
Well, the world economic forum is now agent first.
00:12:01
When you're here, you're working with the app, the app is an agent and the agent is helping to guide you through the conference.
00:12:07
If you go to the help for my company, help.salesforce.com, you'll see we have an agent layer now on our customer support.
00:12:15
So we get 36,000 customer support calls every single week.
00:12:20
If you looked at it a month ago, before we did this, 10,000 of those calls had to go to our human agents.
00:12:24
We have 9,000 support agents.
00:12:27
Now only 5,000 are going to the human agent.
00:12:30
Now the AI is not 100% perfect because it has about 95% accuracy, but this is an amazing moment where, you know, those agents then and those humans come together to resolve those customer support issues.
00:12:42
And our large customers who are here who are deploying this, like I was with Dave McKay yesterday as the CEO of Royal Bank of Canada, they've deployed our agent technology in their wealth management.
00:12:53
So they have the ability to augment.
00:12:55
They have an unlimited workforce in their wealth management to sell and service and market all their wealth management products.
00:13:02
That's very exciting.
00:13:03
That's what AI was meant to do.
00:13:04
So I think one of the big questions is, do you see massive investments, I mean these numbers are staggering by ourselves.
00:13:10
They are $80 billion.
00:13:12
And you're saying you're saying you don't have to do that.
00:13:16
And I think that that's very hard for people to comprehend.
00:13:20
Well two out of the top five models are Salesforce models.
00:13:23
We have the highest accuracy AI.
00:13:25
We're delivering agents at scale to all of our customers.
00:13:29
And we're riding on everybody else's investments.
00:13:31
So look, I think the infrastructure game is an incredible game.
00:13:36
It's not a game that I want to play, but we work with the Amazon's and the Googles and other companies too.
00:13:42
And we can ride on their infrastructure and these investments with our software.
00:13:46
Our software is, this is why we're now the second largest software company in the world.
00:13:51
Our software is excellent.
00:13:52
We can help automate these companies.
00:13:54
We help them connect with their customers in a whole new way.
00:13:58
And they're all going to have to go agent first.
00:14:00
This is a moment of transformation in our industry that I've been waiting for.
00:14:04
And I look, you've known me a long time.
00:14:06
I've never been this excited about our industry.
00:14:10
And I'll tell you why, it's very simple.
00:14:13
For the last 25 years at Salesforce and before that I was 13 years at Oracle, as you know, I was just about one thing, helping companies manage their information.
00:14:22
Now we're making this transformation to digital labor.
00:14:25
We are a digital labor provider.
00:14:28
That is incredible.
00:14:30
And so we're not just about managing information, we're about supplying digital workers to our customers.
00:14:36
And that's, by the way, getting your head around that idea, when you talk about them being digital labor, that's like not any other people who are on the other side of these cameras right now.
00:14:43
That's like a digital agent, well, and so, but that raises a whole other question, which is what do you think the workforce looks like three to five years ago?
00:14:53
Is it fundamentally different?
00:14:54
If you go out of agnostications at AI House on the promenade or you know what it says, what I've been saying is we all have to get our head around that we're about humans with agents working together.
00:15:07
But that is now.
00:15:08
But I'm saying five years from now, same thing, ten years from now, same thing.
00:15:11
I think that for a while, you know, you mentioned these kind of the three words that everybody wants to say, you know, the AGI, it's like this, you know, it's the drop your mic moment, AGI, and everybody stops.
00:15:22
I am not as focused on AGI.
00:15:24
I'm focused on helping companies and customers connect.
00:15:29
And if AGI helps us do that one day in the far away future, fantastic.
00:15:34
But right now, the AI is very good.
00:15:37
It's not perfect.
00:15:38
Right.
00:15:39
You've used these products.
00:15:40
You know, you're on them.
00:15:41
You know, you hit these limits.
00:15:42
How much of the code that you're writing these days and your team is writing is being written by humans versus digital labor as you just said?
00:15:52
Yeah.
00:15:53
This is the first year in the history of Salesforce after 25 years.
00:15:56
I will not hire any net new software engineers.
00:15:59
Not one new.
00:16:00
Not one.
00:16:01
And the reason why is it's not because I'm not going to write a huge amount of new products.
00:16:05
It's because our software engineers are incredibly productive.
00:16:09
They are by 30 to 50 percent more productive than they were 18 months ago.
00:16:13
So this technology, the agent technology again, is making our engineers more productive, our support engineers more productive, our sales people more productive, our marketers more productive.
00:16:24
That is the promise, the opportunity to redefine our companies, to augment our employees, to create more efficiency, to create better KPIs.
00:16:32
This is what we want AGI to do.
00:16:34
For those folks who are hearing that, I'm sure there are shareholders who are saying, "Wow, that's exciting."
00:16:39
And by the way, if it goes at that trajectory, maybe next year instead of not hiring anybody new, you might actually need even less people.
00:16:47
You might actually cut people.
00:16:48
I'm sure if you're on the labor side of the universe, you're thinking, "Oh my goodness, what am I supposed to do?"
00:16:52
Well, you probably know we've added 1,000 basis points to our margin in the last 24 months.
00:16:56
This is one of the reasons we've been able to grow.
00:16:58
We're going to do in our last guidance so we gave, I think it was about 38 billion in revenue this year and 12.9 billion in cash flow or fiscal year ends at the end of this month.
00:17:07
So this is guidance we've already given.
00:17:10
Wow, these are pretty big, exciting numbers, and a lot of it has to do with, we're deploying our own technology inside Salesforce.
00:17:19
We're customer zero.
00:17:21
That's everything that we're doing.
00:17:23
This is a moment where every company can get to another level in their margins and their revenues and in their workforce and in their employee capabilities if they're doing this.
00:17:33
I mean, do you know what I'm saying?
00:17:34
I'm wearing this cool vest from Gucci.
00:17:35
Very cool.
00:17:36
I went to Florence.
00:17:37
I went to their call center.
00:17:38
They have a cool call center there.
00:17:40
We put AI.
00:17:41
We're wearing a client's folks.
00:17:42
He's wearing, okay, that's good.
00:17:44
I know.
00:17:45
Yeah.
00:17:46
We went to their call center.
00:17:47
We put the AI in the call center.
00:17:48
We took support engineers.
00:17:50
We gave them the ability to become salespeople.
00:17:52
Their revenue went up in this call center, 30 percent because people can do more with the right tools.
00:18:00
This is the promise of AI.
00:18:02
This is what we want.
00:18:03
We want people to be able to do more.
00:18:05
By the way, it's kind of like when you go to see your doctor now or you get your labs, don't you immediately put it into one of these tools like Gemini or Chatchee BT or you.com or one of these things.
00:18:15
I do.
00:18:16
And then you're using the AI and your asking questions.
00:18:20
And you're augmenting yourself as another way to look at it, right?
00:18:23
You're learning things and growing your own capabilities.
00:18:26
That's what should be happening in the office as well.
00:18:29
Two broader questions just about the business.
00:18:32
One is, you have made some great acquisitions over the year, famously Slack.
00:18:36
And that was the biggest.
00:18:38
In this new rate.
00:18:39
A great one, by the way.
00:18:40
This new rate.
00:18:41
It's on its way to three billion in revenue.
00:18:42
It's incredible.
00:18:43
In this new regulatory environment, which is supposed to be much more open for business than the Lena con version.
00:18:50
Do you look and see there are things that you would like to add to what Salesforce is today?
00:18:55
Well, we just did an amazing deal.
00:18:56
We bought the own company for two billion dollars, so that's our last acquisition we did.
00:19:00
Right.
00:19:01
We've done 60 acquisitions.
00:19:03
And when I look at our product line, we do sales, we do service, we do field service, we do marketing, we do commerce, we do analytics, we bought Tableau, we have Slack, but we've rewritten them all now and put them into this one common application layer,
00:19:17
built a data cloud on it and built this agentic layer on top of it and integrated.
00:19:21
But it's just one piece of code now.
00:19:23
So that idea that we're going to add or buy something new, well, we're always looking for those things.
00:19:29
But right now our product line is so rich and full and so competitive, you know, you really have to have an incredible value proposition to get me excited about buying something.
00:19:38
And then real quick, just go around the world with me, really if you could in terms of the confidence that you're seeing, you talk to CEOs here, hopefully buying your product.
00:19:46
I hope so too.
00:19:47
And you have a better sense, I think, than most, just about how much money companies plan to spend CapEx and otherwise on SaaS services and more.
00:19:57
What does it feel like right now?
00:19:59
There's no question that we've gone through so many phases in the last five years because it was five years ago when you and I were sitting here and I was at this goals house,
00:20:09
which is one of these buildings, you know, up on the hill, we're out of some party and I'm getting in my car to leave and it's been a long day and a long night and somebody comes running out from the World Health Organization and they're like,
00:20:22
Mr.
00:20:23
Benningoff, you need to realize a pandemic is about to start and I had kind of understood that because I had family members who had been tracking and they were like filling our, you know,
00:20:33
closets with Cheerios, but they were right.
00:20:35
But if you think about from the last five years to today, a lot has happened in the world.
00:20:40
You know, we've gone through a pandemic, we resolve the pandemic, the economy has kind of gone through the various tribulations based on that.
00:20:47
We're in a new normal now and this is exciting.
00:20:49
I think we've recovered from all of that.
00:20:51
Now we have a technology wave.
00:20:54
This is a moment where every company has to transform to grow, to get to the next level and AI is going to let them do that.
00:21:01
But really every company is going to become agent first.
00:21:04
But in general, in terms of spending, you know, are you feeling certain areas, certain pockets of the world, the globe are stronger than others.
00:21:10
Other places where you're like, maybe it's actually not as strong as people think.
00:21:14
I think that for every CEO that I've spoken to here, on their mind is how are they using what has happened in the last five years to transform their company and get to the next level.
00:21:27
Last night, I had dinner with a CEO of a French company, great company, very close customer bars.
00:21:32
And I just kind of mapped out, this is what your future can now be.
00:21:37
It's a mind-blower, what's possible today?
00:21:40
And I think that when CEOs get that vision of the future, they realize they can all go to an incredible new level and that's why I'm so excited to be here.
00:21:49
And that's why I'm so excited about Salesforce.
00:21:52
What's going to happen to our beloved time magazine?
00:21:54
And that's why I'm so excited about Time magazine.
00:21:56
You probably know we had our person of the year, you probably know the Donald Trump.
00:22:00
But if you went on that issue, you may have saw, it's the first time we deployed an agent first technology where you can work and talk with the art of the magazine, though.
00:22:11
Are you selling the magazine?
00:22:12
There's no deal to sell Time magazine.
00:22:14
There's no deal to sell to.
00:22:15
See?
00:22:16
Make a news, left and right.
00:22:17
Thank you.
00:22:18
Thank you, sir.
00:22:19
It's great to see you early.
00:22:20
Appreciate it.
00:22:21
Thank you.
00:22:22
Thank you.
00:22:23
Thank you.
00:22:24
Thank you.
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