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The first half of the show consists of a pre-recorded interview with political scientist Charles Murray. He’s best known for books like Losing Ground and The Bell Curve—controversial though they may have been, they were grounded in the empirical methods that characterize modern social science. His new book, Taking Religion Seriously, is a somewhat surprising departure from social science into the realm of religion and religious experience. Murray has had, if not a conversion experience, then a kind of awakening regarding the claims of religion: the existence of a divine creator, miracles, and life after death. In this conversation, I ask him how a staunch materialist who, by his own account, doesn’t have a natural capacity for religious feeling has come to value metaphysics.

After that I bring on Robert Patton-Spruill to talk a little more about religion, the death of Dick Cheney, Zohran Mamdani's win in the NYC mayoral race, the government shutdown, and Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and the conservative schism over U.S.-Israel policy.

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