Ta-Nehisi Coates on complexity, clarity, and truth.
3Digest
This episode of "The Gray Area" features a conversation with author and essayist Tana Hassi Coats, known for his thoughtful and often controversial writing. The episode delves into the concept of "The Gray Area" and how it relates to embracing complexity and resisting oversimplification, while acknowledging the need for moral judgment in certain situations. The conversation focuses on Coats' new book, "The Message," and its exploration of moral clarity, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Coats discusses his approach to writing, emphasizing the importance of honesty and vulnerability, and how stories shape and distort reality. He argues that beautiful writing can be a powerful tool for social change. The conversation delves into the politics of storytelling, exploring how narratives shape our understanding of history and influence our political views. Coats discusses the controversy surrounding his essay on Palestine, acknowledging that his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have drawn criticism. He emphasizes that he is not offended by the existence of a Jewish state but by the idea of states built on ethnocracy. Coats explains his decision to write about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arguing that the situation is not impossibly charged but rather a clear case of apartheid. He provides specific examples of the discriminatory practices faced by Palestinians, highlighting the moral clarity of the situation. Coats argues that the lack of Palestinian voices in the conversation about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a major obstacle to finding a workable solution. He criticizes the media and other institutions for excluding Palestinians from the narrative, effectively dehumanizing them and making it easier to ignore their suffering. The conversation explores the complex relationship between moral judgment and violence, using the example of Nat Turner's rebellion to illustrate how even in the face of extreme oppression, violence can be morally problematic. Coats discusses the cycle of violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arguing that it is not a product of a long history but rather a consequence of the establishment of Israel in 1948. He emphasizes that the system that governs both sides is wrong and that the morality of apartheid is not complicated. Coats reflects on the role of the writer in a world where pronouncements and spectacle often overshadow truth-seeking. He acknowledges the pressure to make a difference but ultimately believes that the primary responsibility of the writer is to tell the truth as they see it. Coats concludes the conversation by discussing the danger of convenient stories and the need for moral imagination. He argues that we must be willing to confront the complexities of the world and resist the temptation to simplify narratives for the sake of comfort. The episode ends with the speaker discussing a difficult conversation they had about a topic they don't fully understand, emphasizing the importance of engaging with the topic despite their lack of complete understanding. They express appreciation for the openness and honesty of the person they spoke with and are considering their suggestion to visit Israel and Palestine to gain firsthand experience.
Outlines
Introduction, Support, and The Gray Area
This segment introduces the podcast, "The Gray Area," and its host, Sean Elling. It also acknowledges support from sponsors, including Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast. Sean Elling discusses the concept of "The Gray Area" and how it relates to his approach to hosting the podcast. He emphasizes the importance of embracing complexity and resisting oversimplification, while also acknowledging the need for moral judgment in certain situations.
Tana Hassi Coats: Author, Essayist, and Moral Clarity
Sean Elling introduces his guest, Tana Hassi Coats, an author and essayist known for his thoughtful and often controversial writing. The conversation focuses on Coats' new book, "The Message," and its exploration of moral clarity, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Coats discusses his approach to writing, emphasizing the importance of honesty and vulnerability. He believes that writing is strongest when it reflects genuine searching and a willingness to confront uncomfortable truths.
The Evolution of "The Message" and the Role of Politics in Writing
Coats explains how his book evolved from a project about writing to a deeper examination of how stories shape and distort reality. He discusses the tension between his love for language and his desire to address political issues, arguing that beautiful writing can be a powerful tool for social change. The conversation delves into the politics of storytelling, exploring how narratives shape our understanding of history and influence our political views. Coats argues that political discourse is often driven by stories and tropes that are deeply ingrained in our culture.
The Controversy Surrounding Coats' Essay on Palestine
Coats discusses the controversy surrounding his essay on Palestine, acknowledging that his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have drawn criticism. He emphasizes that he is not offended by the existence of a Jewish state but by the idea of states built on ethnocracy. Coats explains his decision to write about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arguing that the situation is not impossibly charged but rather a clear case of apartheid. He provides specific examples of the discriminatory practices faced by Palestinians, highlighting the moral clarity of the situation.
The Need for Palestinian Voices in the Conversation
Coats argues that the lack of Palestinian voices in the conversation about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a major obstacle to finding a workable solution. He criticizes the media and other institutions for excluding Palestinians from the narrative, effectively dehumanizing them and making it easier to ignore their suffering. The conversation explores the complex relationship between moral judgment and violence. Coats uses the example of Nat Turner's rebellion to illustrate how even in the face of extreme oppression, violence can be morally problematic. He argues that the value of human life should guide our moral judgments, even in the most difficult situations.
The Cycle of Violence and the Need for Moral Clarity
Coats discusses the cycle of violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arguing that it is not a product of a long history but rather a consequence of the establishment of Israel in 1948. He emphasizes that the system that governs both sides is wrong and that the morality of apartheid is not complicated. Coats reflects on the role of the writer in a world where pronouncements and spectacle often overshadow truth-seeking. He acknowledges the pressure to make a difference but ultimately believes that the primary responsibility of the writer is to tell the truth as they see it.
The Danger of Convenient Stories and the Need for Moral Imagination
Coats concludes the conversation by discussing the danger of convenient stories and the need for moral imagination. He argues that we must be willing to confront the complexities of the world and resist the temptation to simplify narratives for the sake of comfort.
Difficult Conversation and Learning
The speaker discusses a difficult conversation they had about a topic they don't fully understand. They emphasize the importance of engaging with the topic despite their lack of complete understanding. They express appreciation for the openness and honesty of the person they spoke with and are considering their suggestion to visit Israel and Palestine to gain firsthand experience.
Keywords
Ethnocracy
A form of government where one ethnic group holds power and privileges over others, often leading to discrimination and oppression.
Apartheid
A system of racial segregation and discrimination enforced by law, as practiced in South Africa from 1948 to 1994.
Moral Clarity
The ability to make clear and unambiguous judgments about right and wrong, even in complex situations.
Storytelling
The art of crafting narratives that shape our understanding of the world, often influencing our beliefs and actions.
Moral Imagination
The ability to empathize with others and understand their perspectives, even when they differ from our own.
Vulnerability
A willingness to expose oneself to emotional risk, often leading to greater authenticity and connection.
Difficult Conversation
A conversation that involves sensitive or challenging topics, potentially leading to disagreements or emotional responses. It requires careful communication, empathy, and a willingness to listen and understand different perspectives.
Openness and Honesty
A communication style characterized by transparency, authenticity, and a willingness to share thoughts and feelings without reservation. It fosters trust and understanding in relationships.
Firsthand Experience
Direct personal involvement in an event or situation, providing a unique and valuable perspective. It often leads to deeper understanding and empathy.
Q&A
How does Tana Hassi Coats approach writing, and what does he believe is the most important aspect of his craft?
Coats emphasizes the importance of honesty and vulnerability in writing. He believes that writing is strongest when it reflects genuine searching and a willingness to confront uncomfortable truths. He also acknowledges the need to be aware of how his work is perceived by others, while maintaining his own independent relationship with it.
What is Tana Hassi Coats' perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and why does he believe it is a clear case of apartheid?
Coats argues that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not impossibly charged but rather a clear case of apartheid. He provides specific examples of the discriminatory practices faced by Palestinians, highlighting the moral clarity of the situation. He believes that the system that governs both sides is wrong and that the morality of apartheid is not complicated.
How does Tana Hassi Coats view the role of the writer in a world where pronouncements and spectacle often overshadow truth-seeking?
Coats acknowledges the pressure to make a difference but ultimately believes that the primary responsibility of the writer is to tell the truth as they see it. He believes that writing can be a powerful tool for social change, but it must be grounded in honesty and a willingness to confront uncomfortable truths.
What is Tana Hassi Coats' advice to aspiring writers, and what does he believe is the most important thing for them to do?
Coats advises aspiring writers to live a full life, gain experience, and walk the world. He believes that writing is about more than just reading and writing; it is about experiencing the world and developing a unique perspective. He also emphasizes the importance of staying off Twitter and avoiding the temptation to make pronouncements without a deep understanding of the issues.
What was the difficult conversation the speaker had?
The speaker doesn't explicitly state the topic of the conversation, but they mention it was a topic they didn't fully understand and felt it was important to engage with despite their lack of knowledge.
What did the speaker learn from the conversation?
The speaker learned something from the conversation and appreciated the openness and honesty of the person they spoke with. They are now considering visiting Israel and Palestine to gain firsthand experience.
Show Notes
How important is complexity? At The Gray Area, we value understanding the details. We revel in complexity. But does our desire to understand that complexity sometimes over-complicate an issue?
Journalist and bestselling author Ta-Nehisi Coates thinks so.
This week on The Gray Area, Sean talks to Coates about his new book The Message, a collection of essays about storytelling, moral clarity, and the dangers of hiding behind complexity.
The Message covers a lot of ground, but the largest section of the book — and the focus of this week’s conversation — is about Coates’s trip to the Middle East and the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Coates argues that the situation is not as complicated as most of us believe.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Table of contents
United States
this interview reminded me of the saying: . For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. To claim it is simple is better described as simplistic. so disappointing that the interviewer didn't ask any questions about his discussions with Israelis. One of the poorest interviews I've ever heard.
It's odd to hear Coates rhapsodizing on the beauty of language and the need for writers to pay attention to what they are saying and how they express their thoughts, then to hear him say "fuck," "shit," and "asshole" a dozen times in a brief interview. Perhaps he should know that English has the largest lexicon of any language, so perhaps he could do better at expressing himself. I don't expect anything better from little Sean, the "philosopher" at Vox.