DiscoverWhy Is This Happening? The Chris Hayes PodcastThe End of Libraries as We Know Them? with Brewster Kahle and Kyle Courtney
The End of Libraries as We Know Them? with Brewster Kahle and Kyle Courtney

The End of Libraries as We Know Them? with Brewster Kahle and Kyle Courtney

Update: 2024-07-022
Share

Digest

This episode of Wise delves into the ongoing legal battle between the Internet Archive and major publishers over the Archive's Open Library program. The publishers argue that the Archive's practice of digitizing physical books and making them available for loan constitutes copyright infringement, claiming it undermines their control over the distribution of their works. The Internet Archive, however, defends its program as a form of fair use, arguing that it replicates the traditional lending practices of physical libraries and provides valuable access to knowledge. The episode features interviews with Brewster Kale, founder of the Internet Archive, and Kyle Courtney, a lawyer and librarian, who discuss the legal and ethical implications of the lawsuit, the future of libraries in the digital age, and the broader implications for the knowledge economy. The conversation highlights the tension between commercial and non-commercial models of knowledge dissemination, the importance of preserving cultural heritage, and the role of libraries in promoting access to information.

Outlines

00:00:00
Introduction: The Disappearance of MTV News Archives

This Chapter begins with the host, Chris Hayes, expressing his concern over the recent disappearance of the MTV News archives from the internet. He discusses the unnerving experience of seeing his own work disappear from the internet and highlights the importance of the Internet Archive as a vital institution for preserving digital content.

00:02:26
The Internet Archive: A Non-Commercial Vision of the Internet

This Chapter introduces the Internet Archive, a non-profit organization dedicated to preserving and providing access to digital content. The host discusses the Archive's mission to create a free and publicly accessible storehouse of knowledge, contrasting it with the commercial visions of knowledge and intellectual property that have emerged in the digital age.

00:03:28
The Lawsuit: Publishers vs. the Internet Archive

This Chapter delves into the lawsuit filed by major publishers against the Internet Archive. The publishers argue that the Archive's Open Library program, which allows users to borrow digitized books, constitutes copyright infringement. The host discusses the legal arguments presented by both sides, focusing on the concept of fair use and the implications for libraries in the digital age.

00:05:03
The Future of Libraries in the Digital Age

This Chapter explores the broader implications of the lawsuit for the future of libraries. The guests, Brewster Kale and Kyle Courtney, discuss the challenges facing libraries in the digital age, including the increasing dominance of licensing models, the rise of surveillance, and the potential for a "licensed only" culture that would restrict access to knowledge.

00:55:05
AI and the Knowledge Economy

This Chapter examines the intersection of AI and the knowledge economy. The guests discuss the potential for AI to revolutionize access to information, but also raise concerns about the potential for AI to be used to further restrict access to knowledge and to exacerbate existing inequalities.

00:58:34
Conclusion: The Importance of Libraries and Open Access

This Chapter concludes the episode with a call for continued support for libraries and open access initiatives. The host emphasizes the importance of preserving cultural heritage, promoting critical thinking, and ensuring that everyone has access to knowledge.

Keywords

Internet Archive


The Internet Archive is a non-profit digital library that offers free access to a vast collection of books, movies, music, software, websites, and other digital content. It is known for its Wayback Machine, which archives the internet in real time, allowing users to access past versions of websites. The Archive's mission is to create a free and publicly accessible storehouse of knowledge, promoting a non-commercial vision of the internet.

Open Library


The Open Library is a project of the Internet Archive that aims to create a comprehensive digital library of all books ever published. It allows users to borrow digitized books for free, similar to traditional library lending practices. The Open Library has been the subject of a lawsuit by major publishers, who argue that its lending practices constitute copyright infringement.

Fair Use


Fair use is a legal doctrine that allows limited use of copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder. It is often invoked in cases involving education, research, criticism, and parody. The Internet Archive argues that its Open Library program falls under the fair use doctrine, as it replicates the traditional lending practices of physical libraries and provides valuable access to knowledge.

Controlled Digital Lending (CDL)


Controlled Digital Lending (CDL) is a method of lending digitized books that replicates the traditional lending practices of physical libraries. It involves digitizing a physical copy of a book and making it available for loan to one user at a time, similar to how a physical book is loaned. The Internet Archive uses CDL in its Open Library program, arguing that it is a fair use practice.

Licensing


Licensing is a legal agreement that grants permission to use copyrighted material under specific terms and conditions. Major publishers are increasingly relying on licensing models to control the distribution of their works in the digital age. Critics argue that licensing models can restrict access to knowledge, increase costs, and undermine the traditional role of libraries.

AI (Artificial Intelligence)


AI refers to the simulation of human intelligence processes by computer systems. AI is rapidly transforming various industries, including publishing, education, and research. The episode discusses the potential for AI to revolutionize access to information, but also raises concerns about the potential for AI to be used to further restrict access to knowledge and to exacerbate existing inequalities.

Knowledge Economy


The knowledge economy refers to an economy where the production, distribution, and consumption of knowledge are central to economic activity. The episode explores the implications of the lawsuit for the knowledge economy, highlighting the tension between commercial and non-commercial models of knowledge dissemination and the importance of ensuring that everyone has access to knowledge.

Libraries


Libraries are institutions that provide access to books and other information resources. The episode discusses the challenges facing libraries in the digital age, including the increasing dominance of licensing models, the rise of surveillance, and the potential for a "licensed only" culture that would restrict access to knowledge. The guests argue that libraries play a vital role in promoting access to information, preserving cultural heritage, and fostering critical thinking.

Copyright


Copyright is a legal right that grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights to control its use and distribution. The episode discusses the legal implications of copyright law for libraries, the Internet Archive, and the broader knowledge economy. The guests argue that copyright law should be balanced with the need to promote access to knowledge and to preserve cultural heritage.

Q&A

  • What is the lawsuit filed against the Internet Archive about?

    The lawsuit filed by major publishers against the Internet Archive centers around the Archive's Open Library program, which allows users to borrow digitized books for free. The publishers argue that this practice constitutes copyright infringement, as it undermines their control over the distribution of their works.

  • What is the Internet Archive's argument in defense of its Open Library program?

    The Internet Archive argues that its Open Library program is a form of fair use, as it replicates the traditional lending practices of physical libraries and provides valuable access to knowledge. They claim that digitizing books and making them available for loan is similar to lending physical books, which is a common practice in libraries.

  • What are the broader implications of the lawsuit for the future of libraries?

    The lawsuit has significant implications for the future of libraries in the digital age. If the publishers prevail, it could lead to a "licensed only" culture where libraries are forced to rent digital books under restrictive terms, potentially limiting access to knowledge and undermining their traditional role in providing free access to information.

  • How does the lawsuit relate to the broader knowledge economy?

    The lawsuit highlights the tension between commercial and non-commercial models of knowledge dissemination. The publishers argue that their control over the distribution of their works is essential for their economic viability, while the Internet Archive advocates for a non-commercial model that prioritizes free access to knowledge. The outcome of the lawsuit could have significant implications for how knowledge is produced, distributed, and accessed in the digital age.

  • What are the potential implications of AI for the knowledge economy?

    AI has the potential to revolutionize access to information, but it also raises concerns about the potential for AI to be used to further restrict access to knowledge and to exacerbate existing inequalities. The episode discusses the need for regulations and guardrails to ensure that AI is used in a way that benefits society as a whole.

  • What is the importance of libraries in the digital age?

    Libraries play a vital role in promoting access to information, preserving cultural heritage, and fostering critical thinking. They provide a space for learning, research, and community engagement. The episode emphasizes the importance of supporting libraries and open access initiatives to ensure that everyone has access to knowledge.

  • What is the role of copyright law in the digital age?

    Copyright law is a complex and evolving area of law that seeks to balance the rights of creators with the public's interest in accessing knowledge. The episode discusses the need for copyright law to be balanced with the need to promote access to knowledge and to preserve cultural heritage.

  • What are some of the challenges facing libraries in the digital age?

    Libraries face a number of challenges in the digital age, including the increasing dominance of licensing models, the rise of surveillance, and the potential for a "licensed only" culture that would restrict access to knowledge. The episode highlights the need for libraries to adapt to the changing landscape of information access and to advocate for policies that promote open access and equitable access to knowledge.

  • What is the potential for AI to revolutionize access to information?

    AI has the potential to revolutionize access to information by making it easier to search, analyze, and synthesize large amounts of data. However, it is important to ensure that AI is used in a way that benefits society as a whole and does not exacerbate existing inequalities.

  • What are some of the concerns about the use of AI in the knowledge economy?

    Concerns about the use of AI in the knowledge economy include the potential for AI to be used to further restrict access to knowledge, to exacerbate existing inequalities, and to undermine the traditional role of libraries and other cultural institutions.

Show Notes

Could the future of libraries as we’ve known them be completely different? Our guests this week say so. Megapublishers are suing the Internet Archive, perhaps best known for its Wayback Machine, to redefine e-books as legally different from paper books. A difference in how they are classified would mean sweeping changes for the way libraries operate. Brewster Kahle is a digital librarian at the Internet Archive. Kyle Courtney is a lawyer, librarian, director of copyright and information policy for Harvard Library. He's the co-founder of Library Futures, which aims to empower the digital future for America's libraries. They join to discuss what’s animating the lawsuit, information as a public good and the consequences should the publishers ultimately prevail.
Comments 
00:00
00:00
x

0.5x

0.8x

1.0x

1.25x

1.5x

2.0x

3.0x

Sleep Timer

Off

End of Episode

5 Minutes

10 Minutes

15 Minutes

30 Minutes

45 Minutes

60 Minutes

120 Minutes

The End of Libraries as We Know Them? with Brewster Kahle and Kyle Courtney

The End of Libraries as We Know Them? with Brewster Kahle and Kyle Courtney

Chris Hayes, Brewster Kahle, Kyle Courtney