The Ever-Present Challenge of Escaping Poverty (with Noah Smith)
3Digest
This episode of EconTalk features a conversation between host Russ Roberts and economist Noah Smith, who discusses the multifaceted nature of poverty and its relationship to industrial modernity and technological advancement. Smith argues that poverty is the "elemental foe," a constant struggle against the default condition of the universe. He defines industrial modernity as a system of technological edifices, including roads, farms, hospitals, and the internet, that allow humans to escape poverty by increasing productivity and reducing the amount of human labor required to produce goods and services. Smith explores the impact of cheap labor on automation, citing the example of China's entry into the World Trade Organization in 2001, which potentially slowed down automation in the United States. He also discusses the role of the extent of the market in driving technological innovation, arguing that the industrial revolution was delayed for centuries because the market was too small to justify the investment in capital-intensive technologies. Smith critiques the romanticization of poverty, arguing that people often idealize past eras, overlooking the harsh realities of life without modern technology. He debunks the notion that hunter-gatherers, medieval peasants, or even the 1950s were idyllic times, pointing out the widespread poverty, disease, and violence that characterized those periods. He also discusses the degrowth movement, which advocates for a reduction in economic growth to protect the environment, arguing that the movement's premise is flawed, as economic growth is essential for improving living standards and reducing poverty. Smith acknowledges that while industrial modernity has lifted millions out of poverty, it has also come at a cost, such as the loss of close-knit communities and the challenges of maintaining strong familial connections in a mobile society. He argues that industrial modernity has led to a shift from horizontal community (neighbors and local connections) to vertical community (co-workers and shared interests), exploring the implications of this shift for social interaction and the nature of human relationships. He concludes by reflecting on the impact of technology on human interaction, acknowledging both the benefits and drawbacks of online communication and expressing a preference for in-person interaction.
Outlines
Poverty and Industrial Modernity: A Conversation with Noah Smith
This episode of EconTalk features a conversation between host Russ Roberts and economist Noah Smith, who discusses the multifaceted nature of poverty and its relationship to industrial modernity and technological advancement. Smith argues that poverty is the "elemental foe," a constant struggle against the default condition of the universe. He defines industrial modernity as a system of technological edifices, including roads, farms, hospitals, and the internet, that allow humans to escape poverty by increasing productivity and reducing the amount of human labor required to produce goods and services.
The Impact of Technology on Poverty and Automation
Smith explores the impact of cheap labor on automation, citing the example of China's entry into the World Trade Organization in 2001, which potentially slowed down automation in the United States. He also discusses the role of the extent of the market in driving technological innovation, arguing that the industrial revolution was delayed for centuries because the market was too small to justify the investment in capital-intensive technologies.
Debunking the Romanticization of Poverty
Smith critiques the romanticization of poverty, arguing that people often idealize past eras, overlooking the harsh realities of life without modern technology. He debunks the notion that hunter-gatherers, medieval peasants, or even the 1950s were idyllic times, pointing out the widespread poverty, disease, and violence that characterized those periods.
The Degrowth Movement and the Importance of Economic Growth
Smith discusses the degrowth movement, which advocates for a reduction in economic growth to protect the environment, arguing that the movement's premise is flawed, as economic growth is essential for improving living standards and reducing poverty.
The Trade-offs of Industrial Modernity
Smith acknowledges that while industrial modernity has lifted millions out of poverty, it has also come at a cost, such as the loss of close-knit communities and the challenges of maintaining strong familial connections in a mobile society.
Horizontal vs. Vertical Community
Smith argues that industrial modernity has led to a shift from horizontal community (neighbors and local connections) to vertical community (co-workers and shared interests), exploring the implications of this shift for social interaction and the nature of human relationships.
The Impact of Technology on Human Interaction
Smith concludes by reflecting on the impact of technology on human interaction, acknowledging both the benefits and drawbacks of online communication and expressing a preference for in-person interaction.
Keywords
Industrial Modernity
A system of technological edifices, including roads, agricultural distribution centers, automated farms, railroads, water treatment plants, hospitals, the internet, and the electrical grid, that allows humans to escape poverty and achieve a higher standard of living.
Degrowth Movement
A primarily European movement that advocates for a reduction in economic growth to protect the environment. The movement argues that GDP is a flawed measure of human flourishing and that industrial society is unsustainable.
Elemental Foe
A term used by Noah Smith to describe poverty, drawing a parallel to the elements of nature that pose challenges to human survival. He argues that poverty is the default condition of the universe, and that human progress is a constant struggle against it.
Romanticization of Poverty
The tendency to idealize past eras, overlooking the harsh realities of life without modern technology. People often romanticize hunter-gatherers, medieval peasants, or even the 1950s, ignoring the widespread poverty, disease, and violence that characterized those times.
Horizontal Community
A type of community based on proximity and local connections, such as neighbors and people who live in the same area. This type of community is often characterized by strong social bonds and a sense of shared identity.
Vertical Community
A type of community based on shared interests, such as co-workers, hobbyists, or online groups. This type of community is often characterized by weaker social bonds and a more specialized focus.
Q&A
What does Noah Smith mean by "industrial modernity" and how does it relate to poverty?
Smith defines industrial modernity as a system of technological edifices that allow humans to escape poverty. He argues that these technological systems, such as roads, farms, hospitals, and the internet, increase productivity and reduce the amount of human labor required to produce goods and services, thereby raising living standards and reducing poverty.
What are the main arguments of the degrowth movement, and why does Noah Smith disagree with them?
The degrowth movement advocates for a reduction in economic growth to protect the environment. They argue that GDP is a flawed measure of human flourishing and that industrial society is unsustainable. Smith disagrees, arguing that economic growth is essential for improving living standards and reducing poverty, especially in developing countries.
How does Noah Smith critique the romanticization of poverty, and what examples does he use to illustrate his point?
Smith argues that people often idealize past eras, overlooking the harsh realities of life without modern technology. He debunks the notion that hunter-gatherers, medieval peasants, or even the 1950s were idyllic times, pointing out the widespread poverty, disease, and violence that characterized those periods. He uses examples like the Frontier House reality show and the high rates of farmer suicides in India to demonstrate the challenges of life without industrial modernity.
What are the trade-offs of industrial modernity, and how does Noah Smith suggest we navigate them?
Smith acknowledges that while industrial modernity has lifted millions out of poverty, it has also come at a cost, such as the loss of close-knit communities and the challenges of maintaining strong familial connections in a mobile society. He suggests that we should be aware of these trade-offs and make conscious choices about how to live within the modern world, balancing our pursuit of material success with our desire for meaningful relationships and a sense of community.
Show Notes
The universe, points out economist Noah Smith, is always trying to kill us, whether through asteroids hurtling through space or our every-few-hours hunger pains. Why, then, should we expect anything but a gravitational pull toward poverty? Listen as Smith explains to EconTalk's Russ Roberts why he believes that poverty will always be our "elemental foe," and how what he calls "industrial modernity" is key to keeping poverty at bay. They also discuss Smith's impatience with the "degrowth movement," which he thinks jeopardizes our gains in the fight against the elemental foe.
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