On this episode of REALtalk, Stéphan Déry, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Services, Public Services and Procurement Canada, joins Michael Brooks, CEO of REALPAC, for a discussion on the future of work and real estate, talent retention and recruitment, and enhancing the workspace to facilitate collaboration.

The episode covers:

• The hybrid work model


• The future of work and real estate


• Trends across Canada and internationally


• Talent retention and recruitment


• What optimal workspaces look like


• The Office portfolio

About Stéphan Déry:

Stéphan Déry was appointed Assistant Deputy Minister of Real Property Services at Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) on August 19, 2019.

In this role, Stéphan is responsible for the delivery of the entire suite of real property services to federal departments and agencies, including office accommodation, project management, real estate services and specialty services (geomatics, environmental, architectural and engineering), the management of multiple federal engineering assets (bridges, dams, highways and dry docks), as well as the acquisition and disposal of federal real property.

Stéphan also provides leadership for the Government of Canada’s GCworkplace initiative and the development of the workplace of the future. He is passionate about the importance of providing modern, green and accessible workspaces for employees and enabling a hybrid work environment that fosters innovation, collaboration and productivity in the new post-pandemic reality.

Stéphan is the Co-Chair of the Federal, Provincial and Territorial Real Property Committee. He is also a staunch supporter of The Workplace Network, an international community of senior public sector real estate executives, of which he is the current President.

Stéphan is a certified management accountant and holds a master’s degree in public administration.

Podcast transcript: 

Michael Brooks (REALPAC): Hello, everyone, thanks for listening and welcome to REALtalk, the show that brings you unique insights from leaders in Canadian and international commercial real estate. I’m Michael Brooks, CEO of REALPAC.

I’m pleased to be joined today by Stéphan Déry. Stéphan is the Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Services at Public Services and Procurement Canada, a position he has held since August 19th, 2019. Yes, the pandemic hit six months into his new job. Stéphan is responsible for delivery of the entire suite of real property services to the federal departments and agencies, including Office accommodation, project management, real estate services and specialty services such as gymnastics, environmental, architectural and engineering, and the management of multiple federal engineering assets such as bridges, dams, highways and dry docks, as well as the acquisition and disposal of federal real property. Big job. He’s passionate about the importance of providing modern, sustainable and accessible workspaces for employees and enabling a hybrid work environment that fosters innovation, collaboration and productivity in the new post-pandemic reality. Stéphan is the co chair of the Federal, Provincial and Territorial Real Property Committee. He’s also a staunch supporter of the workplace network and international community of senior public sector real estate executives, of which he is the current president. Stéphan is a certified management accountant and holds a master’s degree in public administration. Wow. Welcome, Stéphan.

Stéphan Déry (PSPC): Thank you, Michael. It’s a pleasure to be with you today.

Michael Brooks (REALPAC): All right. Let’s get into this. So so government officials have clarified that hybrid work, the hybrid work model, some days working in the office, some days working at home or other remote locations will be the way forward within the Canadian federal government. Some in the real estate space think the pendulum will swing to the workforce. Being back in the office maybe five days a week within the next couple of years. What’s your view of that and how do you see your role in providing flexibility to federal workers?

Stéphan Déry (PSPC): Well, first of all, thank you, Michael. Extremely interesting question from my perspective. I’m passionate about the future of work and real estate. So to me and I’ll answer quite quickly, I’ll give you a little bit of a background after that, five days a week in the labor shortage that we have, I’m not so sure what we see, the trend we see around the world. But just to start in Canada, most governments, provincial government have decided Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, they all decided on a 2 to 3 days a week in the office with more flexibility. And some of the reason for that is to attract and retain talent, because we’re all in competition for the same talent pool. So how we can implement that, if we look a little bit in the international perspective, you know, as you mentioned, I’m a current president of the Workplace Network and we’re seeing that most countries have adopted a hybrid model. And it’s not only for from a building perspective, it’s not only from a government perspective, it’s also from a perspective, again, of attracting that talent and being a little bit more flexible with the employee and looking what they’re looking for. Like the UK is, as an example, is retaining the worst place. Leigh How to really focus on hybrid, how they can, how they can create an environment and they call it the four C’s that will foster collaboration, creativity, community and caring for one another. So and that for CS stayed with me because, you know, if you go back to 2019, 2015 and all that, these are not the reason you were going into the office.

Stéphan Déry (PSPC): You know, collaboration. Yes, You were going for collaboration, but caring for one another community building, as one of my colleague was saying, it’s something you would do somewhere else. So it brings us to rethink our offices and bring really a mother in. Look. If you look at Norway, Norway is the same way. They’re going 2 to 3 days a week in the office and they’re starting to rethink their work environment in order to favor that collaboration between between employee and their manager and their senior management. And the last example I use, it’s the U.S. are our neighbor, GSA Government service agency. They’ve also started to look at how work can be done. And they develop a plan for 2030 that basically states that work can be done anywhere. And they’re rethinking about how how will we implement that hybrid workplace and what it’s going to look like. Last week they launch an innovation center in in the Washington of 25,000 square feet where they want to showcase what the future will look like. And that’s enabled by technology enabled, you know, great work area, great workplace. So that’s really, to me what the future look like, more of the Government of Canada building instead of each department having their own little space and really focusing on bringing people in for collaboration, creativity, innovation. That’s what’s really we’re looking for by modernizing our workspace.

Michael Brooks (REALPAC): This sounds very, very progressive and very thoughtful. You’ve clearly thought about this and consulted widely. Quality of space. How will you repurpose space to make it, as you say, more useful, effective, attractive. The four C’s for returning hybrid employees. So and are you having any pushbacks if you’re seeing any of that so far?

Stéphan Déry (PSPC): Thank you. Thank you. Again, it’s an interesting question, that workspace a lot of our Government of Canada workspace is from the 1990, early 2000. So while other governments were adopting activity based workplace, basically more collaboration and you know flexible workspace and also unassigned seating, we launched it here in 2016 and, you know, we started we have about 10% of our workspace that are modernized to the kind of activity based workplace that we were looking for. But the pandemic and I called it the largest telework pilot project ever done around the world. You know, it was although it was a terrible event on the other end, it created a it helped us to advance what we were thinking was the right way to go at activity based workplace like the rest of the world is doing right now, and really leverage that new ways of working and that new space we want to build. Really, it’s. People do not want to come back in their cubicle and clothes work heads down all day. They could do that from home. They can think from almost anywhere they want to come in to collaborate. So how do we create that workplace that looks more like an open space where people can sit together, exchange ideas, resolve problem? You know, I think that and I had the opportunity in in 2022 to be part of a presentation by JLL Global Research and Dr. Mary Primero, and they had made a survey of about 16,000 office worker around the world, including governments and all business with more than 100 employees. And the finding of their research to me was pretty clear. And it goes to the war for talent. Also, we’re moving to into a workers centric world in which s