The systems behind the symptoms | Episode 15
Update: 2025-07-23
Description
What if the real problem isn’t what we think it is? When simple solutions don’t actually move the needle, it’s often a sign we’re treating symptoms, not systems. In this episode, Jeff Mohr talks with Matt Healey, founder of First Person Consulting, about how systems thinking and evaluation can help us move beyond surface-level problems.
They explore:
- The difference between program evaluation and systems evaluation
- Moving from problems to possibilities
- Monitoring system health and finding leverage points
- How to apply the System Effects approach in projects
- Bridging the gap between insights and meaningful action
Whether you’re designing programs, mapping systems, evaluating impact, or trying to create lasting change, this conversation is packed with insights you can use!
Subscribe to the In Too Deep Podcast or read the full transcript on the In Too Deep blog.
Mentioned in this episode:
- First Person Consulting
- Problems to Possibilities Canvas
- System Effects
- Resources on Lawyer Wellbeing: System Effects Report, Journal Paper & Theory of Change Model
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