Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones

Update: 2024-09-17

Digest

This episode of the Ezra Klein Show features a conversation with Zadie Smith, a renowned novelist and essayist. The conversation delves into Smith's latest book, "The Fraud," and explores themes of identity, politics, and the complexities of human experience. Smith discusses her essay collection "Feel Free," where she argues that individuals with amorphous identities solidify under political pressure. She explains her own political views as a radical humanist, socialist, and existentialist, and how these perspectives shape her understanding of the world. Smith shares her fascination with the Titchborne trial, a 19th-century case where a butcher claimed to be the heir to a noble estate. She sees it as an example of left-wing populism and draws parallels to the OJ Simpson trial, highlighting the larger truths that can emerge from seemingly false cases. Smith introduces Sarah Ainsworth, a key character in "The Fraud," who represents the working class and their struggle for justice. Sarah's unwavering support for the Titchborne claimant, despite the illogical nature of his claim, reflects a deeper truth about the unfairness of the court system. Smith reflects on her own intellectual blind spots and the limitations of traditional notions of intelligence. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing different ways of knowing, including street smarts, and how these perspectives can enrich our understanding of the world. Smith discusses the rise of the rationalist movement and its emphasis on "facts don't care about your feelings." She argues that this approach is flawed, as emotion plays a crucial role in human experience and can provide valuable insights. Smith and Klein discuss the rise and subsequent decline of "wokeness" as a dominant force in American politics. Smith argues that the initial hierarchical reversal, where marginalized identities were given greater prominence, was a positive development, but it's important to avoid calcifying into new forms of rigid thinking. Smith and Klein explore the violence of political polarization, which forces individuals to inhabit a limited set of identities. They discuss how this process can be particularly harmful to those who are already marginalized and how it can lead to a denuding of the self. Smith emphasizes the importance of recognizing gradations of oppression and how stable notions of identity can create a sense of containment. She argues that individuals are ultimately uncontainable by language and that we should strive to defend the fundamental truth of our multifaceted selves. Smith discusses the linguistic turn in contemporary discourse, where language became a primary battleground for social and political change. She acknowledges the importance of language but also highlights its limitations, particularly in capturing the complexities of human experience. Smith critiques the behavior modification system of social media, arguing that it structures our thoughts and influences our perceptions of the world. She expresses concern about the impact of this technology on our ability to attend to the world around us and to cultivate a sense of mystery. Smith emphasizes the value of mystery and the importance of resisting the urge to classify and label everything. She sees music as a medium that thrives on the internet because it allows for a more fluid and less hierarchical exploration of influences. Smith discusses how technology can act as aspiration devices, shaping our values and influencing our social connections. She reflects on the importance of cultivating deep and meaningful relationships, recognizing that true friendship is a rare and precious thing. Smith explores the connection between aging and loneliness, particularly for women. She reads a passage from "The Fraud" that captures the feeling of exclusion and loss of definition that can accompany aging. Smith discusses the loneliness that can affect older men and the lack of social networks that can support them. She emphasizes the importance of intimacy and privacy as sources of freedom and how marriage can provide a space for genuine self-expression. Smith highlights the importance of listening as a key to knowing people deeply. She emphasizes the need to resist projecting our own ideas and to simply listen to what others have to say. Smith discusses the various forms of exclusion and judgment that people experience, particularly as they age. She explores the feeling of losing definition and the ability to be included in social circles. Smith critiques the binary debates that often arise around race, gender, and age. She argues that the discourse between old and young people is particularly delusional, as it pits people against their future selves. Smith recommends three books to the audience: "The Director" by Daniel Kilman, "Fanon" by Adam Schatz, and Virginia Woolf's diaries. She discusses the themes of complicity and the role of art in confronting difficult historical truths.

Outlines